Fuck Flag Burning! Let's argue about "assault" rif

Postby **burn** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:54 pm

gyre -
Look up RBCD ammo and check out the velocity.
http://www.rbcd.net/Personal%20Defense%20Ammo.htm
Compare the velocity for the 32 to the 380.

Have you seen the factory belt clip that allows you to carry it like a pocket knife? You punch out the black pin at the top of the grip.

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Postby gyre » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:19 pm

I never heard of these guys.
I can't find complete statistics on the site.
What barrel length are they testing with?
Do you trust their figures?
My gun isn't even rated to the foot pounds they claim.
The 380 is still testing more powerful in their chart.
There are many that believe the Glaser is more deadly than normal hollowpoints.
And Corbin thinks it's due to their round fragmenting but not disintegrating, as most similar rounds do.

I'm using the Corbin DPX with the Barnes round.
We also tested the Powerball, which has a definite feeding advantage and very impressive power.
I'm aware of the belt clip, but I think my P11 is too heavy for it.
I may try it with the 380.
After breaking the gun in, we have dismantled it and fully polished all mechanical parts.
And I have upgraded to the usa mags from the california magazine it came with.
I am very impressed that such a small gun can hold 13 rounds.
I'll probably add the extended Mecgar 17 round mag eventually.
I plan on adding a trigger stop and considering the trigger shoe.
And of course the Armalaser.
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Postby Toolmaker » Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:47 pm

The smallest handgun I have is a 357 SW Highway Patrolman made in 73. I am also fond of my 45s.. especially my Wilson Combat. For those that want to defend the home w/o shooting a 12 ga is good. Every scumbag knows the sound of that pump, smart ones will be going the other direction after hearing it saving you the trouble of getting new carpet.

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Postby **burn** » Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:10 pm

I have carried and tested this ammo for several years.
There numbers are on - I have seen the live videos.
Here are their ordnance gelatin performance -
http://www.rbcd.net/gelatin%20photos.html

We will have to meetcha on the playa and discuss.

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Postby gyre » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:02 am

Any idea on the barrel length tested?
I've never seen charts without that.

Most tests are done with a four inch barrel.
The P11 is three inch and the 32/380 is shorter than that.
Are there clear pictures of the rounds on there?

Is the 9mm weight correct? 60 grains?
And 50 grains?
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Postby Rocket75377 » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:33 am

I own many guns; seventeen at last count. I don't hunt. I don't like killing or fighting. Why do I have them? Because I can, and because I don't like King George milling around in my affairs.

Because I have to: On the left, my baby, my pride and joy, a Maadi-90, next to my latest acquisition, a Mossberg 500 (and extra barrel).

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Re: Fuck Flag Burning! Let's argue about "assault"

Postby ZaphodBurner » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:15 am

TomServo wrote:Now here's a debate I prefer!
Pro A.R.: What kind do you own? Why Do you own it? Do you own it? Do you think Assault Rifles are "deadlier" than hunting rifles? Share your thoughts!


Yes, and yes. The one I'll talk about is a Soviet-era SKS Paratrooper with a bayonet, bipod, detachable magazine, folding stock and the only thing it's missing is a flash suppressor and a freakin' grenade launcher. I asked a cop one time if it was legal and he said "Are you going to get into trouble with it?" 'Nope.' "Then, I wouldn't worry about it. It's 'militaria.'" 'God Bless America. What about the thermite in my trunk?'

I fired a Bushmaster Predator AR-15 a couple of weeks ago. Any veterans who remember the old M-16s should try one of these sweethearts. Amazing.

I'm arranging the purchase of an LWRC M6A2 for a relative who is working in Balad. His job allows him to have assault weapons in California when he's not overseas. Good gig. Huge ass money. No idea why he needs an uber-rifle but it has to do with countersniper systems that are currently being installed over yonder. Otherwise, he lives in Santa Rosa.

Why do I own an assault rifle? 'Cause I can-can-can-can-can. It's like the Sawzall of firearms. Not very accurate, limited in use, but it's a hell of a lot more fun than a handsaw. I'd own a fully-automatic hammer too, maybe. I'm I gonna go on a killing spree with it? Nope.

But if I'd have bought fifty of them before the assault weapon ban way back, they'd have been great investments. I know a guy who has a licensed fully-automatic WWII B.A.R. It would make me horny if the owner didn't have a beard and a beer-belly. More women ought to own machine guns. Where's JezebelIHell? That metallic-costume avatar of hers is goddamn playa-hot, but, she could use a frickin' M-60 like Jesus in that South Park episode.

I'm a big fan of assault rifles. Not a sexual fan or anything, but, they're fun on the range. Other than that they're just a media-glorified power tool.

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Postby Ron » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:57 am

Heh, what a fun thread.

I do own guns, am permitted to carry them in a few states, and have an instructor's degree in combat handgunnery as part of my martial arts training. Here's a few of my puts;

Yes, guns are "cold weapons of doom." They are made to kill. It's important to remember that, IMHO, while handling them.

For home defense shot guns are the way to go. Easier to hit, harder to kill your neighbor, and if you get good with 'em you can bounce the shot around corners, under cars, and so on. Given a good hard surface I know folk who can get downright creative with a good shotgun.

The notion that your tactical gun will be an effective deterrent to, or weapon against, our federal forces is an illusion. Consider Iraq where the most effective weapon they have isn't a gun at all, it's a cell phone and the right mix of chemicals to make a bomb. I'm not saying guns should be take from citizens, I am saying you're deluding yourself if you think a citizenry armed with hunting rifles is going to engage professional military forces in a stand up fight.

Police forces love to spread that myth around about knives being more deadly than guns. Most of the time, in the examples that they've studied, the issue wasn't the knife but the state of preparation of both folk in the situation. If an officer has drawn their weapon, acquired their target, and centered the front site on someone ten feet away the knife that person has isn't so scary. It's when the weapon is still holstered and the knife wielding attacker has their weapon ready and charges the officer that you get problems. Bottom line? Bringing a knife to a gun fight isn't very smart. Guns are better. And this from an Escrima instructor so you know I love my knives. :)

If you are going to have a gun and think you can use it to defend yourself practice and instruction are required. And I don't mean just plunking at targets. I mean practicing your draw, practicing target identification and sight centering while moving. In the dark. While shot full of adrenaline (my LE and military friends get vials of it. We go out and shoot each up with it some times when we do the field drills. It makes a difference.) Learn weapon retention techniques so you know what to do if you do get in a wrestling match with someone over it. Know that kind of malfunctions your weapon is prone to and learn how to address them quickly. The first time you get a jam or a stove pipe it can be confusing, after that not so much. Familiarize yourself with your state's self defense laws and make peace with the possibility of shooting someone. And so on. While remembering that you can't learn this stuff from a book, you can't learn it from a conversation, you have to learn it from a pro and then practice it to know it. It's a physical skill, just like juggling, only you can easily kill yourself or someone you don't want to if you screw it up. So take it seriously, if you want to be armed for self defense, please.

Boy, big topic. :) And, finally, I'd support changing the second amendment to allow for easier (but not complete) restrictions on gun ownership. It's too easy for too many folk to get arms they don't understand and will use with bad intent, here in the U.S, IMHO. How about them apples. ;)

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Postby thirt33n » Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:43 pm

i have a laser gun.
blow.
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Postby gyre » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:03 pm

Good advice, Ron.
Note that my example about knives specified someone running.
I never thought about taking adrenaline.
I can verify from experience that it does make a difference to actually face someone trying to kill you.
A big difference.

My carry training is about 50% in the dark and includes random shots and other distractions next to me.
All of the practice drawing is very boring, but I know the value of it.
I have had martial arts moves I haven't done in twenty years come back to me, as I made the move perfectly.
As much a shock to me as the opponent.
Practice does stick with you.

I'm open to suggestions to add to the training.


After going through the federal background check, I completely disagree about restrictions.
There are a million minor ways to be prevented from owning a gun, without having done anything wrong.
Then you have someone who still must protect themselves, but cannot get standard training and permits.
That is pretty much the situation we used to have here.
And yet people still want to live, so they will protect themselves.

I was rejected three separate times due to errors in paperwork that were "discovered" separately.
This is on one application.
The FBI was most helpful.
Do I trust the same state people that can't keep DMV records straight?
It is an absurd and broken system.
If I hadn't aggressively corrected errors myself, I would still be waiting.
The instant check took several solid weeks of my time to fix other's mistakes.
I doubt most people know how to approach this.
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Postby **burn** » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:41 pm

The Supreme Court today rules that the 2nd Amendment is not a collective right, but an individual right and struck down Washington DC's ban on handguns. Watch out San Francisco!

gyre - I read back over this thread and found that I did not answer all your questions.
When RBCD did the gelatin tests they used the shortest barrel they could commercially find so as not to affect the results in their favor.
The chart for velocity/energy on their website does show the velocity for the 32 is greater than the .380. Vice versa for the energy.
The 9mm 60gr is correct.

The issue of distance has been set by a precedence court case that if an armed running man (knife, bat, etc) is 21' from you, it will take the 'average' person the same amount to draw and fire as it will for that armed man to reach you and put you at risk of injury. So the understood distance of justified self-defense is 21' or less.

Ron - you are so right about this being a skill that requires practice. And very important to understand is that it is a PERISHABLE skill.
Also about the adrenaline rush. If one hasn't experience the tunnel vision and loss of hand-eye coordination, they will be in for a shock. The mind and body will default to standard habit. For instance, a sheriff's office usually qualifies with their handguns once a year. There are many stories after a gun battle with armed criminals that the deputies have pockets full of brass. During qualifiers they pick up their brass for reloading. They defaulted to that behavior in the middle of a gun battle. So create and keep good habits.

Zaphod - Nevada is a Class III friendly state so SMG and suppressors are fair game. Ever shoot the FN P90? oh boy what fun!

And for a bit of reading, I highly recommend Unintended Consequences by John Ross.

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Postby Ugly Dougly » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:32 am

gyre wrote:Why the 32 over the 380?


I understand that the .32 was the maximum allowed calibre for many European countries.
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Postby mdmf007 » Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:55 am

absolutely.
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Postby chiefdanfox » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:12 pm

Any statistics on how many guns stolen during burglaries wind up on the streets in the US? Or show up at gun shows for that matter?
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Postby gyre » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:21 pm

chiefdanfox wrote:Any statistics on how many guns stolen during burglaries wind up on the streets in the US?
All of them, by definition.

The FBI can answer your question about gun shows since all purchases are run through them.


I was wondering why pick a 32 over a 380 in the usa?
In this case, the size is identical, the weight is virtually the same, and the only difference is one less round and no lock when the gun is empty.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Fri Jun 27, 2008 2:30 pm

This is on your ticket (among 9 other rights):
2. A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

So I'm cool to bring my shooting iron?
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Postby Toolmaker » Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:32 am

Ron made great points about firearms.

The more educated and practiced you are the less likely you will fail and your gun wind up in the wrong hands. If you go through dodgy area and expect to carry in your car some practice with an UNLOADED gun moving around can be handy. Every time I move into a new home I find the "sweetspots" and try to familiarize myself with the hallways and whatnot in the dark. Far too many accidents and failures to defend oneself come about from lack of training and practice. If you tote a CCWP you must be able to draw with your clothing. Snags can be a real drag, and backups are important to have just in case of a nasty problem with your auto. I alway use a wheel gun for a backup for the reliability factor. Point shooting is the best to know but this takes lots of range time and you'll probably want to have a reloading bench somewheres etc etc.

Did someone mention something about assault rifles not being accurate.. this is BS in my opinion. Even my cheap SKS rifles are fairly accurate with the right ammo. My AR is downright sick when it comes to accuracy, with the longer fluted barrel it is more than suitable for obtaining food and equally suitable for defending from riot type situations. Invest in mag clamps to ease reloading.

As far as gun getting on the streets from house robberies.. not in my house. My gun safe is fairly heavy and requires numerous big strong people to move. I also have a neato bedside safe that has finger grooves for the combo to open. After a lil practice I can get into it really quick now. I did stash a GPS in the gun safe just in case, I can use a website to track the safes location if it ever gets ripped off. Metal Storm has a technology to match guns to specific shooters, I read about this long ago and have always been disappointed that this was not persued agressivley by firearms manufacturers.

Also.. as far as storing of your "collection" goes I like to keep the firing pin and recoil spring out and stored in amongst the food if ya catch my drift.
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Postby TomServo » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:31 am

http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/model2.htm

The PAR-1..is 7.62x39, Romanian pump action AK. Not exactly an AK and nowhere near as fun, but CA residents who missed out still have a way watered down alternative. They sell them at some Big5s. They accebt double stacked high capacity mags.. which are illegal to sell or import in Cali... but are not illegal to have...so long as you say you bought it before 1999. God forbid you should sneak one over the border. HOWEVER! I do not know the stipulations, using them with these new rifles.
anything worth doing..is worth overdoing

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Postby TomServo » Sat Jun 28, 2008 5:40 am

and..Big5 was selling them for under $300
anything worth doing..is worth overdoing

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Postby CapSmashy » Sat Jun 28, 2008 6:44 am

chiefdanfox wrote:Any statistics on how many guns stolen during burglaries wind up on the streets in the US?


As with most gun stats, it is very hard to find clean numbers.

I personally feel that 1 being stolen and utilized for illegal activities is too many.

I have long been a fan of criminally prosecuting irresponsible gun owners that do not make a reasonable attempt to secure their firearm(s) when not in use or not in physical control of them.

A gun safe, a small lockbox secured to a top shelf in a closet, etc. There are numerous ways to secure a firearm that would deter a would be thief. I firmly believe that part of being a responsible gun owner is being responsible enough to make the attempt to secure it against theft beyond just locking your front door when you leave.

Or show up at gun shows for that matter?


Which is one area of where the push to close the gun show loophole comes from.

I have zero issues with them wanting to close that loophole. It would be a very simple process to have the organizer of the gun show responsible to have a licensed gun dealer at the gun show that could run the "Instacheck" background check and maintain 4473 records on private purchases at a gun show. That would still allow someone to come in and sell there personal firearms but ensure they were not being sold to someone ineligible to purchase and that the firearms had not been reported stolen.

From what I have seen at several gun shows, the loophole needs to be closed.
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Postby TomServo » Sat Jun 28, 2008 7:15 am

Living in West Oakland, I found a nice market for "straight from China" AK's..the full auto kind. Stolen firearms, involve only a small part of military rifles. I think stolen handguns have cornered that market.

I believe..or at least I hope, military firearms owners are more careful in securing their weapons. Nowadays, they are an investment.
anything worth doing..is worth overdoing

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Postby **burn** » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:09 am

Here on the ATF's website they have the statistics per State on the recovery rate and how long it takes them to recover a reported stolen firearm. This is for the year 2007.
http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/trace ... ex2007.htm

In regards to the gun show loop hole, the gun show is just one venue. The government is unable to supervise all transactions at every yard sale, bbq, and firing range. The IRS is unable to tax every private transaction and the ATF will be unable to record them.

In the long run it all comes down to rules and who follows them. More rules only get followed by those who followed rules in the first place.
Heroin and rape are illegal, but still seem to be in our news everyday.
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Postby Toolmaker » Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:11 am

TomServo wrote:http://www.gunsnet.net/Linx310/model2.htm

The PAR-1..is 7.62x39, Romanian pump action AK. Not exactly an AK and nowhere near as fun, but CA residents who missed out still have a way watered down alternative. They sell them at some Big5s. They accebt double stacked high capacity mags.. which are illegal to sell or import in Cali... but are not illegal to have...so long as you say you bought it before 1999. God forbid you should sneak one over the border. HOWEVER! I do not know the stipulations, using them with these new rifles.


Isn't it funny how all those laws in Cali don't stop folks in Compton from having AKs?

I kinda like that pump.. I wonder if there is an increase in reliability and a decrease in feed/jam problems.

One thing I found with my AK and SKS collection is that when using aftermarket mags sometimes one has to tweak the feed lips. I also increased the reliability factor by polishing up the feed ramp.

Its a real drag keeping up with all the laws to stay lawful. Theres this new thing about mods now.. one has to be mindful of the law when adding stuff. I think its something like 10 imported parts or something. See U.S. Sec 922R

Here is a decent forum for SKS and AK..
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php

I'm fixin on getting rid of the fiberforce drug stock on one and going with this..

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Postby gyre » Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:48 am

Magazines are a crucial part of the gun.
The kalashnikov isn't as sensitive as some are to the magazine, but the shape and friction, etc are all important.
Vital for most weapons.
I only use Mecgar for the P11.

It isn't impossible to meet the import part rules on most rifles.
It's just stupid, costly and annoying, especially when you have to replace a high quality part with a crappy one.
Some don't even have ten parts.
Some rare guns cannot be made legal with purchased parts.

None of the rifles I own or want to own are legal in california.
What the hell is wrong with california?
I can take them with me once I own them, but I will have to leave all my usa magazines behind.

By the way, there is a huge boycott of paypal and ebay going on for banning all gun parts and accessories.
Same with craigslist.
And what happens when you ban something?
That's right!
There are already sites set up to compete.

One of the ways the us military devised to destroy an enemy is to create a black market.
Paypal creating their own competition seems bloody brilliant.
After all, the gun market has no money or organizational skills.
I'm sure all these california groups telling their customers to go elsewhere, have nothing to worry about.
Customers love being told to go fuck themselves.


If I move to a wide open place, I would really love to have a Barrett, another weapon banned in california.
I'm sure that keeps them out of the hands of gangsters.
After all, the tsa has stopped all drug smuggling now.
Because of the ban, Barrett refuses to sell them to police forces in california now.
They may not even service them.
That's another reason to buy one.

They are great for plinking at cans from 1500 metres.
I imagine they get brought out to the playa quite often over the year.
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Postby TomServo » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:23 am

Being an AK, and Romanian, I'm willing to bet that the PAR1 is reliable..but havn't had the opportunity to try one out.

Goin out to 4th of Juplaya this week. Ill keep an eye out for any Barrets.
anything worth doing..is worth overdoing

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Postby gyre » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:31 am

I wish I could be there.
I'd love to bring some of the cannon out there.
How hard is it to get a permit for that during burning man anyway?
Nothing sounds like black powder.
If you want bass...
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Postby **burn** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:47 am

Barretts are beautiful but so damn expensive.

Check out Serbu Arms - still beautiful and much more affordable.
Light enough to shoot from the shoulder (you will blow your sinuses)
or waist.

ebay is so ignorant when it comes to selling firearm accessories. That is all we sell on ebay. They will sometimes remove our listings for nightsights or lasers. Sometimes even holsters!

We have used auctionarms or gusamerica or even subguns. All dot coms.
Subguns is usually Class III listings for $5.

Magazines are a so finicky when it comes to AR's. I find the AK's to be much more reliable, and the ammo is much more affordable. Century Intl was bringing them in for about $250-300 for while.

TomS - being the playa is federal land, how does that work for shooting out there? We usually go to Dixie Valley to shoot the 50.

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Postby MozyBonz » Sun Jun 29, 2008 11:45 am

**burn** wrote: We usually go to Dixie Valley to shoot the 50.

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Postby Intubater69 » Sun Jun 29, 2008 2:09 pm

CapSmashy wrote:

A single shot 22 rifle in the hands of a person that has trained with that weapon can be far more deadly that a novice with an AR and a 30 round box.


The ER Docs at Detroit Receiving Hospital will attest to that, as well as the Police Chief in Capac, MI who was recently shot with a .22. Those rounds will just ricochet around the inside of the body and tear the shit out of it while a bigger round like a AR, 5.56mm or AK, 7.62mm will just plow right on through the body, of course leaving a wee bit bigger hole on the backside then the entry wound. Course in my job a .22 GSW is easier to bandage then the bigger rounds.
I get to drive the ambulance how fast?!!

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Postby **burn** » Sun Jun 29, 2008 3:18 pm

It really depends on the ammo.
Some ammo will fragment and break into pieces.
Some will not penetrate and bouce off a leather jacket.
Some will penetrate all the way thru a body and hit another person in the line of fire.

Here is a video of a man being shot and hit several times with 38.
It does not stop him. We later hear he collapses shortly after, but if this were someone attacking you he would be capable of inflicting a lot of damage before collapsing if your ammo does not stop him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9zy37-_0LU

Just saw the movie Wanted - great flick! They do a trick where they have the bullet curve ball around a pillar to hit their targer. I am going to find out if that is reality or Wollyhood.

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