We're not the only ones questioning this.

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

We're not the only ones questioning this.

Postby respecttheplanet » Fri Jan 16, 2004 2:25 pm

We're not alone...

http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v02/n1449/a02.html?2003

http://www.mapinc.org/safe/v01/n1162/a08.html

http://www.greatbasinweb.com/burningmanpr.html

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/c ... ole18.html

http://www.rgj.com/news2/stories/news/965786498.php

http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html/20 ... /22385.php

http://www.dispatch.co.za/2001/11/01/fe ... INSMOK.HTM (warning, this one has a java applet that bogs yer browser)

Interesting quote:
"Burning Man founder Larry Harvey, who began the event in San Francisco in 1986 and moved it to the Nevada desert in 1990, blamed the dust problem on the region's drought and the transient dunes on other factors.

To help participants cope with dust, organisers sprinkled 15 million litres of water on roads during the event.

"I don't think we can do anything differently to reduce the dust," Harvey said. "We're talking about acts of God and forces of nature. Everybody knows the region goes through periodic drought."

Goodell insisted organisers go out of their way to be environmentally friendly, and said the event does not disturb any vegetation or wildlife.

"We respect the beauty of the Black Rock Desert," she said. "The cleanup is part of leaving it the way we found it. We're very confident the appeals board will rule in our favour."

The Burning Man folks are very particular about what they say. Do they employ the Iraqi Information Minister?
Notice how she said "the event does not disturb any vegetation or wildlife." She carefully leaves out the side effects of the event, and the utter destruction of Frog Pond. They're not considered "part of the event" in her eyes.
Merely collateral damage, apparantly.

See, folks? This is what we're talking about. The blatent lies by the Burning Man folks/Black Rock City, LLC are disturbing. And you're giving them > $150 each to fund the venture.
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Postby Tancorix » Fri Jan 16, 2004 3:38 pm

$225 x2 actually. How about some current news besides the usual muck that keeps getting recycled over and over, please?
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Postby Badger » Fri Jan 16, 2004 4:44 pm

She carefully leaves out the side effects of the event, and the utter destruction of Frog Pond.


I knew at some point this one would rear its ugly little head.

Several folks/groups opposed to the event on the playa have often used this very same straw man argument to frame the Project as wildly irresponsible, wreckless razers of pristine ecosystems.

FACT: Frog pond which is a small artesian well (once a perched water table) located to the south of the Lahanton lake bed/playa very near the train tracks, is not a natural site of any biological significance other than the occasional bird, antelope, rabbit or the large non-native species of bullfrog which were introduced to the area. Frog pond was drilled (bored) out many decades ago by some forgotten entrepreneur who realized that the water table at that end of the playa was relatively close to the surface compared to other occurrances of water around the entire basin/graben (go look that word up - it's a fave of mine) and decided to build there using the drilled well as a source of water. In short, the pool is man made and NOT an naturally occurring geological phenomenon. Suggesting that modification of a constructed area that has pleasing recreational value or perceived biological significance is moot. It's not unlike suggesting that tearing down or modifying a barn is destroying a natural and significant site just because a few bats happened to take advantage of the inner roof of the structure.

I'll concede that the alteration of the site due to backhoeing(sp?) the area for water has made an impact and that it doesn't look like it once did but to suggest as our ill-informed troll has that the alteration(s) are paramount to wreckless destruction of the area is a leap of reason and a distortion of facts. In short, truth is suffering here folks.

Expect further twisted missives based on the same flawed logic and distortion of facts to follow.

For anyone interested, I have a somewhat bulging collection of books, articles, papers and abstracts culled primarily from Stanford University's Mitchell Earth Sciences library collected from over eight years of general study of the Lahanton/Carson sink region of the western Basin and Range provence. Cites and topical titles available on request however, I'm convinced that even this source of info won't placate our little buffoon.
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Postby Karma » Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:46 am

So there !!
"God is a comedian playing to an audience that is afraid to laugh".

Voltaire
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Cite away

Postby stopbmorg » Sat Jan 17, 2004 9:15 am

I for one would love to know your cites. It's a short drive to Stanford for me and I'd be happy to refer to your citations and examine their context (which is missing).

That said, there are others who think differently about artesian water sources in the Black Rock Desert. It seems reasonable to conclude that in a state where the government pre-emptively controls all water rights, due to scarcity, that there is some inherent natural and biological value to the water and its availability to wildlife of the 4-legged variety.

I do not concede that it is biologically or ecologically insignificant.

On the other hand, is it biologically or ecologically significant that the automobiles of 30,000 participants drop various petroleum distillates on the playa where they are later released into animal populations during periods of rainfall?

Is it significant that BMORG has been using land in a manner not specified or zoned for by the county government? Are the concerns of locals about pollution, traffic, noise and dust insignificant? Are the concerns of other users (landsailers, rocketeers, etc) insignificant?

That there is no lasting impact is ultimately an opinion which appears, in our eyes, to be based on flawed science and inadequate investigation. That is why we have put forth the idea of a 3rd party (educational or private) to simply come up with an indepdentent EIR or EA. That way everyone can know what is going on. Assuming there is no bias by the 3rd party, if BM is right and we are wrong, then we know things are going to be OK for now, and our concerns are put to rest. If we are right and BM/BLM is wrong (which we suspect, but that needs to be shown by a 3rd party for fairness), then the screws get put to BM to clean up their act.

I don't think any of this is unreasonable or unwarranted.
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The burning man event is leaving TRACES

Postby karasu » Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:09 pm

Putting the frog pond's destruction aside. I want to take issue with all the crap that the 'city' leaves behind. Many Burning Man participants say they live by the credo 'Leave no trace', but saying and doing are two different things. The transect walks aren't doing any good if they aren't done honestly. You also have to be blind not to see all the structures left on the Playa after everyone leaves. These stay there for months. The drive out of the area is horrible; BurningMan LLC would be bankrupted if they were fined 1.00 for each piece of litter strewn off by the caravan headed out.

I wont go into what I have personally seen some of the more Neanderthal-type participants do in the vacinity of the hot springs. Suffice it to say, good thing we camp with shovels. Burners shouldn't be there (at the springs)!

The burn scars on the playa are not a fitting tribute to leave behind on the face of the place that we all love. Why leave such a impact on this fragile area? Do you need all the generators leaving behind plumes of fuel in what little ground water there is? Do you need to be so god-damned loud even as you leave your city for visiting hot springs at 4 AM? Or is noise-pollution not an issue in your books?

I don't want to wreck the party, but the party is wrecking the playa. I don't think it is my part to tell you how to conduct yourselves, but you need to be open to the views of others.

Thank you to those of you who read this with an open mind.
Who watches the watchmen?
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Postby Lydia Love » Sat Jan 17, 2004 2:23 pm

Has anyone suggested to this multi-sock fuckface yet that by spamming the board with multiple threads in multiple forums with a topic that could *very* easily be kept to one thread that he, she or it risks the ire of a community that has already gotten sick of that kind of behavior and that by alienating them in that way makes it harder to have any kind of conversation whether or not the topic has any validity whatsoever?

I'm asking because I'm not reading all the threads and don't want to be redundant if it's already been stated.
It's all about the squirrels.
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Postby respecttheplanet » Sat Jan 17, 2004 4:53 pm

Lydia Love wrote:Has anyone suggested to this multi-sock fuckface yet that by spamming the board with multiple threads in multiple forums with a topic that could *very* easily be kept to one thread that he, she or it risks the ire of a community that has already gotten sick of that kind of behavior and that by alienating them in that way makes it harder to have any kind of conversation whether or not the topic has any validity whatsoever?

I'm asking because I'm not reading all the threads and don't want to be redundant if it's already been stated.


Hate to tell you, but it's not a "multi-sock" anything.

Do understand that just because someone posts something critical of BMORG certainly does not mean that it's the same person.
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Not one person

Postby karasu » Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:35 pm

Lydia Love wrote:Has anyone suggested to this multi-sock fuckface yet that by spamming the board with multiple threads.



Ms Love,

What leads you to think that this is a single individual?

What drives you to insult people you don't know?

All that is being asked of you is to think of what it is you (collectively) are doing to the ecosystem (which some of you amazingly believe to be wasteland), other people who share the Playa with your group, and the real citizens of the playa.
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Postby bgirl » Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:39 pm

aya > environment > burning man earth guardians

BURNING MAN EARTH GUARDIANS
* What Are Our Goals?
* When Are We Going to the Playa - Calendar of Events
* What Are We Doing? - EG Teams at Work!
* Tips For Living Lightly in Black Rock City


* Burn Scars
* Leave No Trace - What Does It Really Mean?
* How Do We Clean Up Black City?
* Who Are We? - EG Bio Page


Burning Man Leave No Trace Principles

What does Leave No Trace mean for 20,000 people camping for a week on the playa?
Plan Ahead and Prepare

Read all of the literature provided before leaving for Burning Man.  Start with the survival guide. Plan your structure to be able to withstand the extreme conditions on the playa and be reusable. With Garbage, Precycle/Reduce, Reuse, Recycle - try to reduce the weight, volume, and odor of the trash that your camp generates. Leave all unnecessary packaging at home. Choose cans over bottles, and reusable containers over both. Have a predetermined plan for perishables, liquids and ice. Prepare food in sensible quantities that your group can finish at a single sitting -- leftovers will quickly become a liability).  Have your camp tear-down well planned and practiced.  Don't stress to hurry home on Sunday.  Recognize that long-term exposure to the playa will fatigue your body and impair decision powers.  Also, when under pressure, we are all likely to make rushed decisions, miss details and leave things behind. You will make the wise choice if you know what to expect and are property prepared.

See more hints from Recycle Camp. 
Travel and Camp on Durable Surfaces

Stay on the playa surface, drive only on obvious, marked roads, keep speeds under 5 mph in Black Rock City. Avoid the Hot Springs during the event. These delicate ecosystems cannot handle the volume of usage that free use during the event creates.  Also, many of the surrounding hotsprings are on private land. Avoid crypto-biotic soils at the edges of the playa.  These soils can take over 100 years to develop.  One footprint can leave a lasting impression.  Please stay within the boundaries of Black Rock City during
Burning Man.
Dispose of Waste Properly

(Every camping party is responsible for its refuse. Leave nothing behind, including: firewood, ashes, rocks and cigarette butts. Pick it up and take it with you.) Read on what cleaning up at Burning Man really means BEFORE you leave for the playa.  Please do not leave behind your old bikes behind for us.  Do not use the playa as your toilet. This is unacceptable behavior and unsanitary. Be aware of spare nails or smaller trash particles that may be dismissed as too small for trash including: hair, matches, cigarette butts, feathers, plastic tie wraps.  Do not pour left over gas onto the playa.
Leave What You Find

(except trash!); No trenching or digging; No pillaging other camps, No burning of other people's art; No claiming of potential artifacts.  Artifacts should be turned into the Lost and Found in center camp with an EXACT location of wher it was discovered. Minimize impacts near old Pioneer Wagon tracks throughout the year.Blankets for all and any fires on the playa

Minimize Fire Impacts

Use Fire shields to protect playa surface; Do NOT burn carpets, the fumes are toxic; Do NOT throw bottles into fires, or burn anything that is not necessary.  Burn in predesignated areas ONLY with the fire barrels provided for general use. Burning Man is now crimson(at)burningman(dot)com burn instructions.
Respect Wildlife 

The Desert is no place for dogs or other pets;  Doggy Doodoo - bring a shovel with you and dump that poop right in the portolet. Do not harass or shoot any creatures.
Be Considerate of Other Visitors

Be courteous to your neighbors -remember that we're all part of the larger BR community, Place yourself where you belong according to the indications on the city map, coordinate sound and lights effects with your neighbors, educate late comers on the "Burning Man ways" as soon as they enter your neighborhood, make your neighbors your friends, help each other with Sunday clean-up - it's amazing what a fresh face can see.
Interesting in more information about what Leave No Trace means?   Check out these additional Leave No Trace web pages:

* LNT - An 0utdoor ethic
* LNT - National web page
* LNT - Tread Lightly
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Postby bgirl » Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:42 pm

Lydia Love wrote:Has anyone suggested to this multi-sock fuckface yet that by spamming the board with multiple threads in multiple forums with a topic that could *very* easily be kept to one thread that he, she or it risks the ire of a community that has already gotten sick of that kind of behavior and that by alienating them in that way makes it harder to have any kind of conversation whether or not the topic has any validity whatsoever?

I'm asking because I'm not reading all the threads and don't want to be redundant if it's already been stated.



Yes,many people have suggested many things to multi-personality sybilface,but as you can see,another transformation is happening before our very eyes.Again.........yawn.
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Re: The burning man event is leaving TRACES

Postby metric » Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:29 pm

[quote="karasu"]The transect walks aren't doing any good if they aren't done honestly. You also have to be blind not to see all the structures left on the Playa after everyone leaves. These stay there for months. The drive out of the area is horrible; BurningMan LLC would be bankrupted if they were fined 1.00 for each piece of litter strewn off by the caravan headed out.[/quote]

I've walked transects for 4 years. The people who do this have been picking up stuff in the desert for a month, and do so in the inspection automatically. You suggest that we ignore or walk over stuff. We do not. It's just very difficult to find after cleanup.

You obviously have not been out on the playa for "months," or you would know that there are no structures left on the playa by the end of September-- actually, by the middle of September.

In the weeks after the event, teams are sent to remove the trash on the sides of the road. They do not discriminate between "participant" garbage and other garbage. They just pick it all up.

I would invite anyone interested to attend National Public Lands Day after the event. We go out and repair damage from recreational users in other places of the desert. This would help provide you with a more balanced view of what comprises a "trace."
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dj big E

Postby dj big E » Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:40 pm

if anyone really gave a fuck about the enviorment they wouldn't own a computer or read magazines or newspapers .These computers of ours are dirty and i bet these rainbow fucn enviormentalists have went through3-4 monitors a piece lmao need i say more.I'll tell u what . I would like someone to do a private study on the impact of 30,000 burners at br desert over memorial day weekend versus the memorial day crowd at glamis.And see who does more damage to the enviornment.My friends went to bonaroo this year 60,000 + and stayed a couple days afterwards they said miles and miles of trash and tents and fire pits generally nasty they said.ultimately i think of course we leave a fucn trace but not very much considering what goes the fuck on i would prefer we stop producing cars and computers for the nekt ten years and continue bm!!!!!!!!!!!!!! dj big "E" laugh dont cry mother fucker p.s. fuck rainbow gatherings
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Postby respecttheplanet » Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:16 am

Stay on the playa surface, drive only on obvious, marked roads, keep speeds under 5 mph in Black Rock City. Avoid the Hot Springs during the event. These delicate ecosystems cannot handle the volume of usage that free use during the event creates. Also, many of the surrounding hotsprings are on private land. Avoid crypto-biotic soils at the edges of the playa. These soils can take over 100 years to develop. One footprint can leave a lasting impression. Please stay within the boundaries of Black Rock City during
Burning Man.


This is one particular section that I would like to see the "Earth Guardians" actually enforce. During the 2002 event, they actually dropped off Earth Guardian volunteers AT TREGO! They then proceeded to HOP IN THE SPRINGS!
If the Earth Guardians cannot even stick to the own list of rules they propose, how can anyone ensure that the other 30,000 attendees do?

This is one of my personal points. BMORG lists rules, people break them, BMORG denies that it ever happened. I just wish that they'd acknowledge the violations and actually do something in the future to prevent it.
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Re: Cite away

Postby Tiara » Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:00 pm

stopbmorg wrote:. . . is it biologically or ecologically significant that the automobiles of 30,000 participants drop various petroleum distillates on the playa where they are later released into animal populations during periods of rainfall? . . . Are the concerns of other users (landsailers, rocketeers, etc) insignificant?


So, are you suggesting that the rocketeers are somehow more entitled to use the area, or that they aren't spreading significant amounts of "various petroleum distillates" on and around the playa?
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Postby KellY » Mon Jan 19, 2004 7:31 pm

To all the stopburningman people, sock puppets, and/or multiple personalities:

The insane number of threads this whole discussion is happening on seems both detrimental to the board and the topic itself, with all the cross-postings, redundant questions, etc. If you are actually concerned about the environmental impact of the event and not just trying to fuck with our community, please pick one thread to carry on the discussion, or start a single new one, and let's proceed from there. Any post aside from saying "Let's go to this thread" will look suspiciously troll-like, I am thinking.

To everyone else on the board, I respectfully ask that you don't post on any more of these threads until a single one is chosen. I'm sorry about the multiple cross postings and if this seems high-handed. I suppose I could have asked the moderators to intervene, but you know...radical self-reliance and all that.
"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes
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lets go to this thread

Postby allanon2 » Mon Jan 19, 2004 8:15 pm

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watah

Postby quiet girl » Tue Jan 20, 2004 6:45 pm

QUOTE: It seems reasonable to conclude that in a state where the government pre-emptively controls all water rights, due to scarcity.....

Michael B. Stewart, a BM appellant who owns Orient Farms and High Rock Holding Co., owns water rights in the Hualapai Valley.

More on NV water rights:

http://water.nv.gov/

http://www.cdfe.org/hage_article.htm
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