Is democracy fading away,,,, should it ?

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Is democracy fading away,,,, should it ?

Postby can't sit still » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:56 pm

If you look at our last several presidents, they were all pieces of shit. The only guy who didn't fuck things up one way or another was Ford. He wasn't elected, he was appointed.
The EU seems to have more and more powerful figures who are appointed. Our congress was elected. Their approval rating is <17>
China has leaders who are essentially appointed, not elected. Their approval rating is 82%. Our election process has degenerated to a popularity contest rather than a selection for competency. Could we do worse? It's true that the origins of our national screw-job are the roster of candidates presented by media. Suppose we used some mechanism rather than the media to come up with qualified candidates?
Blair, Brown and Howard weren't anything great.
It's been said that politics is the last niche available to worthless assholes. Maybe this whole campaign and election process needs to be trashed. Any ideas for alternatives?
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Postby DVD Burner » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:01 pm

democracy is a farce.
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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:12 pm

Dictatorships are much more efficient, but are so short lived
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Postby can't sit still » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:41 pm

My favorite for effeciency is an enlightened benevolent dictator. Castro has one of the poorest countries around. It compares to Haiti. Cuba is paradise compared to Haiti.
Monarchies have been so-so. Englands recent queens have far outshone her kings. Theocracies win the shit award,,,hands down. If Deism leads to nothing but shit-storms, would athiesm do any better? Yahwe is a bloodthirsty god. Is it possible to develop a higher degree of morality with athiesm than with diesm?
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Postby CapSmashy » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:27 am

Fading away? A farce?

Nope.

What we have in America is a very apathetic citizenry that have turned their backs on the process we used to hold in such high esteem. Instead of using the power of the vote for change, we have accepted that our present system of shitty government is the norm, so why bother?

That apathy plays in very nicely with the power brokers intent on maintaining the status quo. They will also capitalize on anything and everything to erase "upstarts" or those outside of the status quo norm that are gaining any kind of momentum. We saw it happen in '04 with Dean and the "noise" and we are seeing it in '08 with Ron Paul. The rhetoric will be quite nasty for Paul if he comes out anywhere but at the bottom of the heap in Iowa.


My point is, we, as in We the People, have quietly and happily allowed our government to slip away and those still with the power love us for it.
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Postby CapSmashy » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:34 am

can't sit still wrote:My favorite for effeciency is an enlightened benevolent dictator. Castro has one of the poorest countries around. It compares to Haiti. Cuba is paradise compared to Haiti.
Monarchies have been so-so. Englands recent queens have far outshone her kings. Theocracies win the shit award,,,hands down. If Deism leads to nothing but shit-storms, would athiesm do any better? Yahwe is a bloodthirsty god. Is it possible to develop a higher degree of morality with athiesm than with diesm?


Castro is neither benevolent or enlightened. A benevolent and enlightened dictator does not execute or imprison for life those that wish to leave his empire. And anywhere except maybe parts of Sub Saharan Africa outshine Haiti.
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Postby DVD Burner » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:45 am

CapSmashy wrote:Fading away? A farce?

Nope.

What we have in America is a very apathetic citizenry that have turned their backs on the process we used to hold in such high esteem. Instead of using the power of the vote for change, we have accepted that our present system of shitty government is the norm, so why bother?


so I bet you think your vote actually counted the last 2 so called "elections" with the Diebold situation and all?

Voting is just a tool to pacify the masses to make them feel they have something to do with how the world works.
Good luck with next years elections.........that's if you actually get the chance to vote durring the martial law.
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Postby DVD Burner » Tue Dec 18, 2007 9:58 am

Not trying to make anyone feel down, sometimes the default world is really fucked up and that's just a part of reality.
On the flipside, reality is, in this world you can do whatever the fuck you want. laws dont really exist and those that are in place are meant to be broken.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:06 am

They just have to spend so much time on fundraising they don't have time for any of the important business. Public financing of elections is the way to go.

On the other hand, given our inevitable slide into savagery, I hereby submit myself as candidate for the Feudalist Party. If it sucks for everyone else, I might as well be king.
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Postby can't sit still » Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:21 pm

Capn smashy, I won't get into a big long disertation about Castro. Suffice it to say, everything that you hear about Castro/Cuba is a lie. The US economic model is super-consumerism. The Cuban model is very close to Bolivarian or Humanist. It puts people above capital. The US leaders are absolutely livid to have a functioning competing model in their back yard.

Castro's main failing is that he's a super-patriot. He sees only black and white,,, no gray. Yes, there have been some draconian measures. You have to take them in context. Cuba is 44% black. There are no countries with that high of a black population that have any kind of economic security,,, or any security.
From Liberia to Zimbabwe, they're all in the shitter. With leaders like Mugabe, Daniel Arap Moi and Idi Amin, they just don't have a chance.
Just as Saddam Huessein and Marshal Tito were the only ones who could keep their countries from boiling over, Castro is the only one who could have held Cuba together.
The US propaganda machine will never allow anything good to be said about Cuba. If you want to have a truly informed opinion about Cuba, You should learn Spanish and go over there.
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Postby mdmf007 » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:12 pm

Cubas just another caribbean island nation. Haiti, Dominican Republic doing any better?

best thing castro could have done for his people was to cave in, the US would have modernated them like Puerto Rico and now I would be able to go to Cuba and party like it was 1950.

I am willing to bet 100 bones to anyone that when Castro is dead - we will have normalized relations and no trade sanctions in less than a year.

hes a totalitarian dictator - only works for a while.
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:34 pm

can't sit still wrote:Suffice it to say, everything that you hear about Castro/Cuba is a lie. The US economic model is super-consumerism. The Cuban model is very close to Bolivarian or Humanist. It puts people above capital. The US leaders are absolutely livid to have a functioning competing model in their back yard.


You are extraordinarily ill-informed. Yeah. "puts people above capital," but only if you define "people" as the select few in power.

Its a citizenry composed of chaps like this intellectually lazy slob that is the biggest threat to democracy.

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Postby can't sit still » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:44 pm

You say Castro dead,,,, are you including Raul? Cuba has a lot of unusable land. When Castro nationalised foreign interests, 49% of Cuba was owned by foreigners. They would never have let go of the land that Bautista sold them. The same happened in Ireland. The British owned everything. It makes one very unhappy to be dispossesed in one's own country.
Years ago, it became obvious that most of the news about a few countries was all propaganda. So, I went to check it out for myself. Ireland/Northern Ireland,,, Israel,,, Kashmere/India and Cuba. In all instances, it proved very informative to actually go there and talk to people and GOV.
I started a thread on Cuba viewtopic.php?t=11373
First-hand experience is what's most accurate to me. BTW, you can go to Cuba on one of the non-profit schemes. Also, you can party. Start at "Casa de Musica", then go to the disco on top of "Havana Libre" You'll never see Cuba if you go to Varadero. If you take a woman with you, She'll be constantly pissed off because of all the women hitting on you.

Take a trip to Capitolia to see all the antique cars being driven around. Get a local girl to guide you around. That way ,you can ride all the 50s Cadillac taxis. Lodge in a "casa particular" that has a kitchen. That way, all you have to do is buy food and she'll invite all her friends to come over and eat. You'll have a whole troup when you pack into the 55 Caddies to go to the beach.
It could be worse.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Dec 19, 2007 12:11 am

If Cuba really was a paradise people would be risking drowning to get there.
On the other hand the literacy rate under Castro is much better than under Bautista, and it's not a brothel and gambling den of conveniece for the US.

I'd have to say, Castro is no great shakes, but better than the B-man, and we forced him into teh arms of Soviet Russia by not allowing trade after the revolution.
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Postby Box Burner » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:28 am

Democracy only works in an atmosphere of anarchy. Where everybody is doing what they want and not what they are told. the American public is doing what they are told and so have become complacent. They have accepted the lie that the government is taking care of them.
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Postby CapSmashy » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:35 pm

DVD Burner wrote:
so I bet you think your vote actually counted the last 2 so called "elections" with the Diebold situation and all?


Actually, an irrelevant argument.

Do you honestly believe anything would be different had Kerry been elected in '04?

The D's and R's are interchangeable labels when it comes to DC politics.

Voting is just a tool to pacify the masses to make them feel they have something to do with how the world works.


So one can assume you are one of the apathetic masses that does not participate in your government?

Curious. What would you do to change the system?

Good luck with next years elections.........that's if you actually get the chance to vote durring the martial law.


Oh fucking christ... not he martial law bullshit AGAIN

Is that same lame ass shit already circulating? :roll:
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Postby CapSmashy » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:43 pm

can't sit still wrote:Capn smashy, I won't get into a big long disertation about Castro. Suffice it to say, everything that you hear about Castro/Cuba is a lie. The US economic model is super-consumerism. The Cuban model is very close to Bolivarian or Humanist. It puts people above capital. The US leaders are absolutely livid to have a functioning competing model in their back yard.


Um no. Cuba is basically a third world country and typical of most Caribbean island nations, about 5% of the population control 99% of the assets. The areas outside the resorts are not quite as bad as Jamaica, but they are not anywhere on par with British Virgin Islands and similar.

Castro's main failing is that he's a super-patriot.


No, Castro's main failing is that he is a despot ruler.

[b]The US propaganda machine will never allow anything good to be said about Cuba. If you want to have a truly informed opinion about Cuba, You should learn Spanish and go over there.
Dan


Actually, reading through travel blogs and such from Europeans, Canadians and Americans (that defy the travel ban) paint a very clear picture of the typical 5 percenter club running the show.
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Postby CapSmashy » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:46 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:If Cuba really was a paradise people would be risking drowning to get there.
On the other hand the literacy rate under Castro is much better than under Bautista, and it's not a brothel and gambling den of conveniece for the US.

I'd have to say, Castro is no great shakes, but better than the B-man, and we forced him into teh arms of Soviet Russia by not allowing trade after the revolution.


Bautista was a US puppet so obviously we would not have supported Castro when he overthrew his government.

It is an interesting sidebar that literacy and primary education rates tend to do pretty well under authoritarian rulers.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:36 pm

CapSmashy wrote:It is an interesting sidebar that literacy and primary education rates tend to do pretty well under authoritarian rulers.
I hadn't heard that before. Do you have other examples?
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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:26 pm

Cuba is just another example of regime change gone bad for US of America. A legacy of the Spanish/ American war that allowed the spanish to hold power in a pseudo-democratic puppet government instead of the pro-democratic cuban freedom fighters that would eventually be headed by Castro a hundred years later. The Anglo-American forces didn't believe at that time that the mulatto population could have the ability to rule and govern a country. Even Winston Churchill wrote an editorial stating that opinion.

If we had, then there would have been a democratic state and I could smoke some really good cigars, drink great rum and dance to great latin jazz.

I agree with Can't Sit Still When Castro began his regime, he really had done some very good things for the people, but the power when to his head that if he wasn't the leader then the country would fall back into the hands of the Batista. All his needed was to have some faith in his people. The embargo only hurts the populists from achieving the gains that wealth does to a third-world country like demanding more rights. We only helped Castro to look like the nice guy and he took full advantage of their proverty to do so.

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Postby can't sit still » Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:16 pm

Cuba is poor because the US cuts them off. Cuba is poor because they have almost no natural resources or good soil. They have almost nothing. Most of Cuba won't support wheat growing. They have a little nickel and a tiny bit of oil.
Because of the blockade, they have almost no industry. Most of Cuba is agrarian.
They've taken what they have and made a country out of it. Until recently, Castro's private plane was an old prop job. He has no mansions or trappings of wealth or power.
There are no elite in Cuba. They have equality of poverty. A newscaster makes about $45 a month. A doctor makes $27 a month. Most people are in school because of the shortage of jobs.
The GOV gets a 47% return on investment from tourism. They would like to invest all money in the people but it isn't realistic, so they invest in tourism. Every year 10% of Cubans apply for the visa lottery to go to the US. Imagine what would happen if Castro let all the Cubans leave.
Not even his worst critic has accused him of corruption. No money is stolen and no one is rich.
Castro doesn't have much of a heart. Years ago, the Argentine doctor, Ernesto Guevara, was his heart. Ernesto was a solid Bolivarian. He believed in the ideas of Simon Bolivar and tried to steer the Castros in that direction. Sure, some of his measures were draconian. I don't see anyone crying over 6,000 peace marcher students killed by the president in Mexico city. Castro did a lot of harsh things to hold his country together. The country has made great progress in education and medicine. They're ahead of the US in a few ways. His legacy should be viewed as educating a great mass of illiterates so that they wouldn't repeat the mistakes of the past.
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Postby CapSmashy » Thu Dec 20, 2007 6:50 am

Blockade? There is no blockade. Other nations are free to trade with Cuba as they wish. The US is the only nation maintaining any kind of embargo against Cuba.. which is pretty stupid at this stage of the game.

You would have thought that one of our brilliant elected leaders at some point would have realized that the best way to have taken Castro down would be to pull all the stops and allow 100% free trade access to Cuba. Once Wal Mart and Starbucks hit, Castro would have been done for.

Back to the trade issue and Cuba's dismal economics. You have illustrated quite nicely why Cuba is a poor nation and pretty much destined to stay that way. Typical of most Caribbean Island Nations, they have little to nothing of value to trade to export (Cuba exports cigars which may be dying since the quality of actual Cuban grown tobacco has been declining over the past 20 years.) and import tourism. The government keeps the bulk of the revenues related to what to what little industry there is.

Foreign investment into Cuba is drying up because of Castro recent policy of taking the multi-million dollar investment of capital by a foreign company and nationalizing it and booting out the foreigners. In 2002, there were over 800 venture enterprises in Cuba that were running smoothly. Today, there are less than 50. Why? Castro's policy of "Gimmie that. Its mine now." Two of the only nations left that will still maintain any form of investment trading are China and Venezuela. Bolivia looks to be leaning that way, but they have a lot to do on their home soil first.

As for the great gift to the people. In foreign based enterprises as in national industries, the workers pay was set by the Cuban government... Castro. Typical state mandated salaries were 100 Cuban pesos per day, which are essentially worthless. For the pleasure or using Cuban labor, the companies essentially "leased" their work force from the Cuban government for hard, international currencies like USD's or Euros.


Why is there no dissent from the masses? Because you will be arrested if you speak out against Castro, the Revolution or what is going on. Firing squads for seditious speech are still very much a reality in Cuba.

Travelblogs are quite clear and specific in their warning to stay out of any politically related debate or discussion with anyone while in Cuba. Being overheard criticizing any aspect of the Cuban government will get you ejected from the country at best and at worst, some jail time before being kicked out.
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Postby CapSmashy » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:01 am

theCryptofishist wrote:I hadn't heard that before. Do you have other examples?


CIA factbook places the literacy rate of North Korea at 99%. Venezuela's literacy rates have been steadily climbing under Chavez. China is still sitting in the 90 to 91% but given the vast number of rural people, it is still an impressive number.

Since many of these governments rely on indoctrination to maintain support and order, what better place to indoctrinate than the fresh, young minds of school children? Granted, their education is certainly lacking in social sciences, but math and scinece skills tend to be on par with western nations.
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Postby CapSmashy » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:12 am

I just noticed that this thread has certainly jumped the tracks from the original post.

Most of us will tend to agree that our political system here in the states is broken. From the very questionable nature related to the accuracy and security of electronic voting machines to the exclusionary 2 party system that makes it impossible for a third party or indie candidate to compete on equal footing.

As I mentioned above, I have lost my ability to differentiate between Republicans or Democrats in national or running for national office.


Call me an idealist, but I still believe we, the people, can fix this, but we have to overcome our apathy and actually get some kind of organized voter turn out rolling. The simple adoption of the "Vote the bastards out" mentality of voting against the incumbent from your local school board and city council, all the way to members of Congress. 2 years later, when the house and another third of the Senate are up for re-election, we do the same thing.

We desperately need change in this country. The biggest hurdle to these changes are getting people out of their chairs and off their couches to do something. Simply crying on an Internet message board how crappy it all is will not change a thing. The status quo is pretty much counting on that being the extent of your "activism".
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:13 am

Don't be a sap. Vote Kleptocrat in 2008.
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Postby DVD Burner » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:39 pm

CapSmashy wrote:
Actually, an irrelevant argument.

Do you honestly believe anything would be different had Kerry been elected in '04?

The D's and R's are interchangeable labels when it comes to DC politics.



Hence my point.

CapSmashy wrote:So one can assume you are one of the apathetic masses that does not participate in your government?



Hardly apathetic. I'm a realist. Reality is politics especially American politics is bullshit for suckers. Again, in this world one can do as one pleases.


CapSmashy wrote:
Curious. What would you do to change the system?


For starters I'd follow the laws of the constitution and put Bush, Cheney and the bunch in prison. Not federal, STATE PRISON where they belong or execute them all as per the constitution on TREASON .



CapSmashy wrote:Oh fucking christ... not he martial law bullshit AGAIN

Is that same lame ass shit already circulating? :roll:





I guess we will have to wait and see what happens in 2008 wont we?
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Postby Toolmaker » Thu Dec 20, 2007 2:49 pm

Now that Diebold controls the voting results I would have to say that we are fucked. I cannot participate in a system I know to be rigged. I was fooled last time using those Diebold machines, no more. As far as I am concerned the country has been hijacked and no longer belongs to the people. I also do not acknowledge any debts accrued in my name by some rich fucker who never shared his pie with me.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:34 pm

My next door nieghbor is in one of those anti-voting machines groups. We don't have them any more. I'm not sure if it's state or county. But putting some political muscle there might be worth your time.
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Postby Box Burner » Fri Dec 21, 2007 2:05 am

Vote for anarchy!

That is, vote for anybody but a democrat or a republican since they are just the two sides of the same wooden nickel.
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Postby can't sit still » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:14 am

I don't post things because I believe that they are the absolute truth. I post them because I believe that they should be considered.
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