ack is there any trutch to this website?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Badger » Fri Jan 16, 2004 7:40 pm

Consider the notions of patriotism and nationalism. Those two 'isms' are strong enough to blind otherwise intelligent, rational humans into acting irrationally (National Socialist Party of Germany, anyone?).

So consider that BM attendees have been fed a decade+ of BRC, LLC originated spin. Soon the spin becomes truth and the truth becomes fact by way of acceptance without questioning. Just suppose that for the sake of argument for a moment.



BADGER: "Alex, I'll take 'Fallacies of Distraction' for $800 please."

ALEX: " Using this method of argumentative distraction, the user often will often make an analogy weaving two unrelated points (often conjoined as a single proposition and treated as fact) or may link two objects (or events), where X and Y are shown to be similar. Then it is argued that since X has property Z, so also Y must have property Z. An analogy fails when the two objects, X and Y, are different in a way which affects whether they both have property Z. For $800 is it A) a Slothful Induction or B) False Analogy?

BADGER: "It's False Analogy Alex."

ALEX: Correct. False Analogy it is for $800 and Badger you take the lead.

BADGER: You wanna go for the Bonus Round Allanon?
Last edited by Badger on Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Badger » Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:47 pm

Fuck. Someone pull me off this guy.
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Postby Isotopia » Fri Jan 16, 2004 8:53 pm

Fuck. Someone pull me off this guy.


Girrrl, you need to stop.
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Postby Booker » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:39 pm

Isn't there a corollary of Godwin's Law that says "Anyone who invokes the Nazis or Hitler can just fucking take what s/he gets?"
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Also . . .

Postby Booker » Fri Jan 16, 2004 9:51 pm

>>chinks in the armor of Burning Man's sterling image

Um, what sterling image would that be? They're people. We're people. The record speaks for itself.

And Rob: Damn. I wanna be Captain Loopy Boy. I'm all bummed now.

Oh, and:

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Re: Also . . .

Postby Rob the Wop » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:18 pm

Booker wrote:>>chinks in the armor of Burning Man's sterling image

Um, what sterling image would that be? They're people. We're people. The record speaks for itself.


Image
This Sterling Image

Booker wrote:And Rob: Damn. I wanna be Captain Loopy Boy. I'm all bummed now.


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Postby Booker » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:20 pm

Oh, well. Guess I hafta invent my own superhero to be. Canadian Club Boy? Is that one taken?
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Postby Rob the Wop » Fri Jan 16, 2004 10:26 pm

What would his super powers be? Able to walk away from a half full beer? Properly pronounce "about"? Change into a moose at will?

The possibilities are endless...
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Postby Badger » Fri Jan 16, 2004 11:29 pm

Canadian Club Boy? Is that one taken?


Not sure about that one but but I have dibs on Clown Royal.
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Postby Rob the Wop » Sat Jan 17, 2004 12:46 am

Badger wrote:
Canadian Club Boy? Is that one taken?


Not sure about that one but but I have dibs on Clown Royal.


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Postby Badger » Sat Jan 17, 2004 1:52 am

Damn! Forgot about him.
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Very clever, but not very helpful

Postby stopbmorg » Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:03 am

The ad hominem attack and the fallacious logical attacks are indeed clever. But still, let's get past those -- I'm presuming you folks just want to make personal attacks for their own sake. I can't stop that from happening.

Still though -- not a single email, not a single post about the proposed solution. It makes me wonder if people actually care about what the event does to the area. At least if enough people outright say they don't care, it will expose various layers of hypocrisy.

X and Y do share property Z, and X is sufficiently closely related to Y such that the analogy is valid. Your logic fails in the basis of how you choose to define X and Y. Any arbitrary definition of the comparators can be used to circumvent and otherwise valid comparison. Therefore, the arbitrary definition you put forth allows you to arbitrarily, but not logically, hinder the comparison.

X=propaganda.
Y=propaganda.

The comparison goes no farther than to compare those two things. No one is being compared to, or accused of, being a Nazi. The analogy works just as well for American patriotism, Ashcroft-style propaganda, Bush-isms, and so on.
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Re: Very clever, but not very helpful

Postby Rob the Wop » Sat Jan 17, 2004 11:31 am

stopbmorg wrote:Still though -- not a single email, not a single post about the proposed solution. It makes me wonder if people actually care about what the event does to the area.


You're the one bitching, it's up to you to give a solution or reason why you're bitching. Otherwise you are simply bitching for personal reasons.

Are you saying you want to insult everyone on the board, show them some pictures, and then have them solve your problem?

And what exactly are you expecting? Describe your goals. What help do you need to do what?
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Re: Very clever, but not very helpful

Postby respecttheplanet » Sat Jan 17, 2004 5:09 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:
stopbmorg wrote:Still though -- not a single email, not a single post about the proposed solution. It makes me wonder if people actually care about what the event does to the area.


You're the one bitching, it's up to you to give a solution or reason why you're bitching. Otherwise you are simply bitching for personal reasons.

Are you saying you want to insult everyone on the board, show them some pictures, and then have them solve your problem?

And what exactly are you expecting? Describe your goals. What help do you need to do what?


I can't speak for the others, but *I* haven't been slinging insults.

Here are some things that I would like to see the BMORG people do, in no particular order:

1)Immediately cease the excavation at Frog Pond.

2)Restore the Frog Pond area to the best of BMORG's abilities.

3)Utilize a municipal source for water. I understand the need for dust abatement, but sucking 9,000 gallons of water from Trego (exactly what the North Tree Fire employees, contracted by BMORG, were going to do) - If BMORG needs to purchase water from a municipal source, so be it.

4)Completely change the post-event cleanup inspections. Currently, random transects are inspected. With the size of the core Black Rock, LLC organization, there is no reason why they cannot go out there with BLM employees and inspect the entire area used during the event. After all, Burning Man's permit confines the event to a particular fenced area. I don't see any valid reason why the entire area cannot be inspected after the event. To this date, this has not been done.

5)Enforce several often ignored sections of the land use permit - for example, the section barring Burning Man participants from utilizing the local hot springs. The amount of litter & human waste left behind at Trego is disgraceful.

Listen, guys. I do realize that quite a few of you go to the event and have a great time. I'd even go so far as to say that a large percentage of the events attendees eally do try to "Leave No Trace" and take great care of the environment. We believe that the faces behind the BMORG are not quite living up to what they preach, and that feels dishonest to us. (Me, anyway..) The BMORG press contacts have put their own slanted spin on events in the past.
We just want them to be honest with us... and *you.*

Feel free to question BMORG. Ask them why they're draining thousands of gallons of water out of a local hot spring instead of using other water sources. Ask them why they're simply not enforcing certain sections of the permit they agreed to. Ask them why they do not assist with any of the litter cleanup on Hwy 447.
The event does have a significant impact on the area. We just want to know why the BMORG isn't doing more to minimize the event.

As far as I'm concerned, flame on. Err.. no, I meant.. "Happy Burn." Or something. :P
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About time.

Postby Rob the Wop » Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:18 pm

See now, that's what has been missing for the most part. I accorded those on the thread the type of attitude I would have to someone in a PDT (Product Developement Team) meeting at work.

A) Complaining that something needs to be done, yet not offering a solution- is pointless and you will be ignored- if not confronted directly by the team lead. It took time, effort, and capital to start the project; unless you have another, better business plan to implement- you are in no position to tell anyone to change the plan.

B) Opinions and slander only deteriorate your position in the team. Bring facts backed by repeatable, valid data. Include contacts on all data brought to the table so the team can follow up if necessary.

C) If your reports are unreadable, have someone else create them. No one will take the time to struggle through a report with atrocious spelling and grammar. They have better things to do. (Unfortunately, this one usually has to be resolved by going up the chain of command. It's resolved, but usually by removing the offending report creator. Meanwhile the unreadable report gets compiled into the archival data folder.)

I see that there are less insults. I also see that stopbmorg is now taking the time to appear coherent. And now there is a counter plan on the table. Keep this up, you might get some others to listen. Good luck.[/b]
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Re: ack is there any trutch to this website?

Postby karasu » Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:35 pm

Techno,

I guess you could produce the e-mail you allegedely sent. Could you post it here? Or just forward it to my e-mail.

Thank you.

Karasu

technopatra wrote:
allanon wrote:www.stopburningman.org


We looked into it when we first heard about it. We emailed them to see where they were coming from, to see if we could talk to them, see if they knew something we didn't, and, surprise surprise, they never responded.

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Re: Very clever, but not very helpful

Postby Rob the Wop » Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:37 pm

respecttheplanet wrote:4)Completely change the post-event cleanup inspections. Currently, random transects are inspected. With the size of the core Black Rock, LLC organization, there is no reason why they cannot go out there with BLM employees and inspect the entire area used during the event. After all, Burning Man's permit confines the event to a particular fenced area. I don't see any valid reason why the entire area cannot be inspected after the event. To this date, this has not been done.


I see the first three suggestions as valid and possible in theory (I don't work for BMORG, so I can't speak from a knowledgable standpoint). The problem is that this involves the BLM employees time just as much as BM's. Not sure on the typical BLM worker, but I do know civil servants from DoD. If they established the "representative sampling" inspections, good fucking luck on getting them to put in unapproved overtime. You would have to convince a higher up at the BLM to rewrite the inspection process and get it signed off.

respecttheplanet wrote:5)Enforce several often ignored sections of the land use permit - for example, the section barring Burning Man participants from utilizing the local hot springs. The amount of litter & human waste left behind at Trego is disgraceful.


Problem with this one is that the springs ARE off-limits. It's posted, and in the guide (if I'm not mistaken). You would have to post a guard at all off-limit springs and landmarks around the area. And if they are BM folks, they don't have the legal authority to kick them out. Again, BLM or local law officials would have to take care of this. Random drive-bys with stiff fines would work, but you're barking up the wrong tree pointing at BMORG. And to be honest, I'll bet the local LEO and BLM could give a crap about folks in the spring when they have the event itself to worry about. Simple case of priorities.
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Chimp, the grammer cop contibutes again...

Postby karasu » Sat Jan 17, 2004 6:57 pm

What do you have in your IV? Is this how you talk to people in general or are you not getting any lately? Do you have anything meaningful to add to the debate, or does getting to truth rate not as high on your list as proper spelling and railing on against typos?

Chimp wrote:AGAGHAHHHAHHHH, WHO IS THIS ARSE? What pot does to you? I was under the impression you must taking it intravenously while typing. Judging by your awful, nay, fucking abysmal even, hell, in fact one might go so far as to say 'remedial' fucking spelling.
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Don't want Playa closed just respected

Postby karasu » Sat Jan 17, 2004 7:43 pm

Tancorix wrote:All that being said, I do have to thank you for trying to draw attention to the Black Rock Desert. It truly is a special place. As much as I want to see it protected I don't want to have so many restrictions on it's use that I can't justify the time to drive out there and enjoy it. I hope your actions don't provoke the BLM into going the opposite way and restrict ALL access to the playa. Sometimes actions have unintended consequences...hell even my posts may have that. But I hope you find a way to balance protection of the resources with a need to keep access open.

Tancorix you are a breath of fresh air in this forum.

What restrictions on the Playa's use do you fear.

Trust that I (and the other 'puppets' if I may speak for them) don't want to see it closed, only respected.

If the burners really played by their own rules and also LEFT NO TRACES then I guess all these numerous 'sock puppets' would still be in the sock drawer.

Karasu 'not a sock'
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Re: Very clever, but not very helpful

Postby karasu » Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:02 pm

Who (of the 'sock puppets') has insulted anyone? It seems to me that we are the people being insulted. If you want to call what we are doing bitching then that is your perogative.

To me it is like us saying, 'HELLLOOO! There are a few people hiding behind a LLC that are ruining something we care for!!! People look at this and can you help us out here!!!???'

I hope that is reason sufficient for our pleas (or bitches if you must).

[quote="Rob the WopYou're the one bitching, it's up to you to give a solution or reason why you're bitching. Otherwise you are simply bitching for personal reasons.

Are you saying you want to insult everyone on the board, show them some pictures, and then have them solve your problem?

And what exactly are you expecting? Describe your goals. What help do you need to do what?[/quote]
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The Cleanup Standard is flawed

Postby stopbmorg » Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:31 pm

Sorry to cross-link:

viewtopic.php?p=35530#35530

Posted there is the typed in content of a letter received this summer from a FOIA request about the cleanup standard. The standard is arbitrary and has zero scientific backing or basis. At most it is an expression of relative cleanliness, but doesn't do much to help the situation. That's why I advocate an independent 3rd party review if BRC, LLC wants to continue the event on public lands(moreso if in addition, there is an expectation of growth).
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Excuse me...

Postby metric » Sun Jan 18, 2004 2:57 pm

...but I just looked over the website and can honestly say it's a load of crap. Some of it has been well rebutted already-- Garrett Ranch has actually been improved by our activities there. The owners of the property are pleased with our improvements. "Dripping" diesel tank? Hardly. Not only has the tank been removed (out of fear of sabotage), but it was installed with spill containment in the event of an accident, as is required by state and local hazmat code.

I hate to point it out, but burning motor oil is not illegal. It happens in motor vehicles every day. The site is obviously the product of one of our local opponents for this to be mentioned at all, since it was something they fixated on before and which is really a non-issue. True, we did have an oil drip set up on one wood stove (an experiment by a local mechanic), but it failed to work before long and was removed.

The rhetorical question "Do you believe them?" is somehow meant to fortify their allegation, and in effect calls me a liar. Well, step on out and say it to my face. Come on over and try to point out gross negligence, because you won't find it. That's why you have to make it up. Tell me, as you have before, that I am the "wrong type of person." That's your true complaint, and it speaks volumes.
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Hi Metric

Postby stopbmorg » Sun Jan 18, 2004 6:49 pm

Next time I'm in the Gerlach area, I'd be happy to discuss the issues with you, with evidence in hand. A sheet of visquine (with holes in it, no less) is not going to do much to stop the leaking diesel. We were there, we saw it. The pit the tank sat in would not have held more than 30% of the tanks contents, when full. A 30% containment is not a 100% containment. Also, obeying the letter of the law is not necessarily a defense in a negligence action.

Burning motor oil into the open atmosphere is illegal -- why else would the Washoe County Commissioners specifically point that out to BRC, LLC in one of its recent meetings for the proposed zoning/permit change for the new land BRC, LLC wants to use for staging the event?

And the few allegations you answer are just that - a few out of many.

Anyway, more interesting information has been posted:

http://www.stopburningman.org has been updated with a half dozen scans of internal BLM memos, as well as the content of a letter from 2 ecologists who, in 2000, were calling for the same kind of environmental review that we are proposing. Their letter is backed up with numerous scientific publications and citations (all there for you to go look up and see for yourself).

Also of note are contradictions about the validity of the cleanup standard (in summer 2003 it was admitted to be arbitrary) in a 2001 memo by the originator of the standard. It was said to be scientific (odd?) and yet likely in need of review. It was suggested, by the originator, that the site might not actually be clean when cleanliness is based on the transect standard.

There is another good memo debunking a good chunk of PR spin that Marian Goodell gave the press in an interview for ReasonOnline (link is at the site) -- the debunking is from a BLM internal memo to the author of the article.

Anyway, we're doing our best to provide the information.
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Water

Postby Zona » Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:20 pm

Here is a picture of the water shortage.
<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~chris.lund/Wateryouass.jpg">
I am right over the site of the man.
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More water

Postby Zona » Sun Jan 18, 2004 10:31 pm

<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~chris.lund/Theflood.jpg">
Snow is water...Right?
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So the answer is NO!

Postby Zona » Sun Jan 18, 2004 11:16 pm

<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~chris.lund/reno.jpg">
So on the same trip, I took a picture of Reno. Now what was it you were saying?
Now off with you!
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Re: Very clever, but not very helpful

Postby respecttheplanet » Mon Jan 19, 2004 11:21 am

I see the first three suggestions as valid and possible in theory (I don't work for BMORG, so I can't speak from a knowledgable standpoint). The problem is that this involves the BLM employees time just as much as BM's. Not sure on the typical BLM worker, but I do know civil servants from DoD. If they established the "representative sampling" inspections, good fucking luck on getting them to put in unapproved overtime. You would have to convince a higher up at the BLM to rewrite the inspection process and get it signed off.


Well, thank you. I'm glad that you see the validity of my statements. I think that #4 could be done easily without overtime. If necessary, BMORG could chip in and cover the costs of the BLM personnell... shouldn't really be that much.

Problem with this one is that the springs ARE off-limits. It's posted, and in the guide (if I'm not mistaken). You would have to post a guard at all off-limit springs and landmarks around the area. And if they are BM folks, they don't have the legal authority to kick them out. Again, BLM or local law officials would have to take care of this. Random drive-bys with stiff fines would work, but you're barking up the wrong tree pointing at BMORG. And to be honest, I'll bet the local LEO and BLM could give a crap about folks in the spring when they have the event itself to worry about. Simple case of priorities.


BLM does care about it, but it's hard to catch the BLM rangers while BMORG participants are in the Springs. I do realize that the BMORG "Rangers" have no authority at all outside of the fenced perimeter, but they can deny re-entrance to the violators. There are already processes in place to eject violators from the event, so I don't see why they cannot extend this to "fence jumpers" as well.
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Re: Very clever, but not very helpful

Postby Rob the Wop » Mon Jan 19, 2004 12:48 pm

respecttheplanet wrote:I do realize that the BMORG "Rangers" have no authority at all outside of the fenced perimeter, but they can deny re-entrance to the violators. There are already processes in place to eject violators from the event, so I don't see why they cannot extend this to "fence jumpers" as well.


Still, unless the rangers know if the people at the springs were burners- how do you know who to exclude? Alright, put someone from BMORG at the springs. Do they then follow the perpetrators until they try to re-enter? Who watches the springs while this is happening? What about people taking a dip before or after going to the event? How do you "prove" they are from the event without authority to search or detain/question?

And not all "fence-jumpers" are going out to do things illegal. A lot of people pick up friends from the Reno airport. I'm sure there are other pressing issues that would have people leaving/entering the event.

Without being granted some kind of authority to deny access, give out fines, or physically arrest suspects that become violent (sometimes happens when you try to fine people- especially when they are drunk, high, etc.)- I'm not sure we are the ones that should be meddling here.

You are trying to legally tie an event coordinator's responsibilities to an individual THAT IS NOT AT SAID EVENT. Here's an interesting lawsuit- what if someone denied access or a refund sues BM LLC for refusal of service based on illegal actions not tied to the event?

I think the most that we could do would be have a volunteer with a walkie-talkie overlooking the said site. If they see someone enter- they call the cops on a special channel. The cops (or BLM) comes out and arrests/fines the individual. Enough hefty fines and the word would get around. Otherwise, I don't see this as being a problem we could solve.
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Postby bgirl » Mon Jan 19, 2004 3:17 pm

Proof is in the pictures!!!!!!! Beautiful photos Zona.Thank you .
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Postby spaceboy » Mon Jan 19, 2004 4:09 pm

Wow. Sure have come a long way from burning some sticks on a SF beach.

The event (and therefore the BMorg) is growing up. There will be some growing pains. I don't agree with the way <insert weekly sock puppets' name here> are going about this, but I'm glad the points were made. It's evidense of an open & free society. I'm also glad they have FINALLY offered some of their own solutions/suggestions to their complaints.

So sock puppets, now what? Your argument is out there, and your evidence is gathered. What's the next move? Will you try to shut the whole damn thing down? Will you try to get BMorg to move the event to a less-impacted area? Do you just want the issues of pollution resolved? Have you sent your complaints & evidence photos to the BMorg home office? Will you give them your suggestions too?

Maybe a good solution to these problems is for you to go work WITH the BMorg to solve them. Present your evidence AND your suggested solutions to the home office in a profesional manner, not some i/p address hide-and-seek blogging name calling game. Wouldn't that be more constructive to the issue at large?
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