NeVaDa state laws in regards to FLAG BURNING

NeVaDa state laws in regards to FLAG BURNING

Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Oct 04, 2007 2:20 am

NRS 201.290 Penalty; exception.

1. Any person who, in any manner, for exhibition or display, puts or causes to be placed any inscription, design, device, symbol, portrait, name, advertisement, words, character, marks or notice, or sets or places any goods, wares and merchandise whatever upon any flag or ensign of the United States, or state flag of this State, or ensign, evidently purporting to be either of the flags or ensign, or who in any manner appends, annexes, or affixes to any such flag or ensign any inscription, design, device, symbol, portrait, name, advertisement, words, marks, notice or token whatever, or who displays or exhibits or causes to be displayed or exhibited any flag or ensign, evidently purporting to be either of the flags, upon which shall in any manner be put, attached, annexed or affixed any inscription, design, device, symbol, portrait, name, advertisement, words, marks, notice or token whatever, or who publicly or willfully mutilates, tramples upon, or who tears down or willfully and maliciously removes while owned by others, or defames, slanders, or speaks evilly or in a contemptuous manner of or otherwise defaces or defiles any of the flags, or ensign, which are public or private property, shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor.

2. This section shall not apply to flags or ensigns the property of or used in the service of the United States or of this State, upon which inscriptions, names of actions, words, marks or symbols are placed pursuant to law or authorized regulations.


well, this should make for a very interesting pre-election burning man...

i plan on utterring malicious things and doing naughty naughty stuff with my american flag speedos on....


c'mon.......Mark spits?
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Postby Lassen Forge » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:00 am

Be careful... remember, Nevada is a red state, worse, you're in "cowboy country" up in Pershing county, and as liberal a bias as you may have, the locals... and the fuzz there... won't share your sense of artistic freedom. Or your assumed right to break their red-state laws with regards to flag-related activity.

Be careful, OK?
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Postby Toolmaker » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:43 am

Indeed.. also be wary of other burners. The event is a rather broad cross section of people all over the country. Radical Self Expression goes both ways.
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Postby turtlex » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:34 am

Question from a Newbie ( ie - never been to a Burn but have always wanted to go ) - - Just how many local or state police are usually on the Playa? I suppose this could get a tad bit hairy if you find some really gung-ho law folks who are spoiling for a fight / arrest.
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Postby Lassen Forge » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:10 am

Bunches. Somewhere between a metric shitload and a sunken boatload. They have at least 6 agencies out there, from Pershing County SO to the FBI. And a lot of undercover, too.

You'll hear people say there aren't any - usually the ones saying that here are either cops themselves, real naive types, or people who choose not to face reality. Those are the types I try to avoid. No doubt they'll post here too. Watch for them.

Now... I don't know any who are gung ho for a fight (and I've met a few of them) - but they are looking for easy busts and well-known wanted types out there. And a warning - the 2 undercover Washoe county LE's I met look not only burnier than you, but burnier than me! And yes - they were real, honest to god badge carrying cops... Also, last year during opening they were setting up just inside the greeters station looking for open containers and contraband.

Also, since they found some guy out here a couple years back who not only had burgled his entire camp (including his wheels and his ticket) to get to BRC, but ended up wanted for such minor things as 2nd Degree Murder, Sodomy with a juvnile under 14, and aggrivated Mayhem (That's a scary set of wanteds!)you bet they'll be out there.
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Postby pinemom » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:31 am

Thats part of the "funny not so funny" part of the WORD...

~~~~CITY~~~~

So many people ask or state the strangest things, are there cops? are there orgies, are there drug takers, are there dj's?

Duh, Black Rock City has EVERYTHING you would find in any larger city, minus only one thing...PLUMBING!

And its in one of the last of the old wild west type states, holds on to old values and tends to be kinda on the strict side in a hypocritical way....
You can BUY a Woman and shit now, a Man too for that matter! You can Gamble away your Entire life savings. You can drink 24/7. The legal age for consensual sex is 16.(I still wouldnt test that theory).

But you cant Smoke Pot, do hard drugs or burn the flag(unless its in a ceremonial fashion because it touched the ground).

There once was a case I heard of on a murder too....That there is a old law in Nevada, that if you catch a strange man in YOUR bed having sex with YOUR wife, you can legally Kill him.
again...I wouldnt test this theory either.

I think its kinda like that Law in ...? is it UTAH? Where its illegal to use a vibrator in a sexual way? sorry if Ive randomly picked the wrong state...hehee...now I wanna go look up on the 'net for wierd laws in strange states.....
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Postby Burner till death » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:05 am

Most states have laws against flag burning. But Texas V Johnson (a 1989 Supreme Court decision) ruled that those laws are unconstitutional. Now, the states haven't taken them off the books, so I guess it's still "illegal." After the Johnson decision, Congress passed the Flag Protection Act of 1989, which was also overturned in a Supreme Court ruling (US vs Eichman). It, as well, is still on the books. These decision also address "Displaying" whether upside down in the traditional "duress or need assistance" state or any other form of display. - unless said display is of an antagonistic nature.

So basiacelly states can make all the laws they want. the US Supreme court already decided different.

Doesnt mean you cant spend a day or two in jail when arrested by a pissed off officer, to be released by the prosecutor.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Oct 04, 2007 10:48 am

i was thinking of it from a slightly different angle....this will be a CRUCIAL election year, and i think Mr.Man is going to get even more media coverage next year, it's the taste du Jour....

so now this brings up the issue of free speech, constitutionality of state laws, media coverage of a so-called "leftist" leaning event, and the media portrayal of the burner community...

they will use us against us....

this is what scares, but also intrigues me, could burning man be an issue in the election, albeit a marginal or wedge issue?

lets just say there is an arrest or two or 40 because of someone uttering malicious nasties about the flag in front of an officer...

it's his job to enforce the law, as i am well aware, having spent 60 days in the pershing county pokey for illegal weapons charges...(sawed off shotgun in saddlebags)

now, if someone with some juice really wanted to press the matter, and take it to the higher courts, would burning man be swept up into a national argument about whether or not we have the right to free speech, in any format?

Unstoppable radical self expression is going to run smack into the immovable wall of Government Censorship, something has to give...
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Postby barnz » Thu Oct 04, 2007 11:59 am

/\

I think we can count on the chemical combination of

some burner
+
some flag
+
some LEO
+
some video camera

giving us all some extra 'exposure' on the national media circuit next year.
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Postby klone138 » Thu Oct 04, 2007 1:37 pm

wouldnt that also meen that it would be illegal to burn the tower that the man will stand on on this year? Last time I checked there is an american flag as well as all nations flags to be burned along with the man.

This is another big reason why I dont like this theme. I just see alot of trouble for your fellow burner when they choose to express there take on this theme. I dont know, maybe Im wrong.
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:29 pm

I think we should all cower in fear over the threat of prosecution. I think we should entrust our testicles to litigators and consult with them before we do anything.

The funny thing? I'm a lawyer! And Im sick and tired how people let themselves be shut down by half-baked interpretations of law and their fear of, oh my God, gettin' a ticket or something!!!!

Whew, rant over, I feel better
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Postby Valkyrie » Thu Oct 04, 2007 3:41 pm

I think I'd like to point out something here that people seem to be missing. nowhere in that law did it mention the word (or variations of) BURN. Do a search if you don't believe me. It is NOT illegal to burn the flag in Nevada. It's illegal to put stuff on it (merchandise?!) but it's not (specifically) illegal to burn it.

As far as I know, NO state has a flag burning law. NOT A ONE. The American Legion would be after them if they did, since I swear they're the #1 flag burning organization in this country. It's too much of a gray line as to WHY you're burning it if you do. "It was old and worn out" is a perfectly reasonable cause for burning a flag.

After all, what are you supposed to do with it when it's beyond its serviceable life (whatever that may be)? Throw it in the garbage? Come on folks! Now THAT's illegal. Read the above law again closely and tell me it's not.


What's funny is the above law actually supports the "no commerce" principle of burning man. Too bad it's not enforced more.
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Postby barnz » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:17 pm

I'm sure we'll see a LOT more dissecting of state and federal flag burning issues over the next 12 months. I don't really care about the particulars, I just know it to be a significant cultural taboo that I don't want to walk blindly into.

I'm not suggesting we cower in fear. But I think we should be aware, if any of us choose to take this on in some artistic endeavor, that because it is such a significant taboo in this society, the issue we address by flag burning is flag burning, and not some other, abstract idea of governmental criticism.

The simple way to say it is "it's been done."

Now, since this thread was posted, I was mulling over the idea of printing up a set of 'flags' with the text of the relevant law(s) printed on them, and do some performance art burning those. :wink:
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Postby Valkyrie » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:29 pm

OK, I'll go with that, but I have to raise a point here. Your flags with laws printed on them? Now that's illegal. The burning of them is just fine. After all, they've been spoiled with all that ink!

I think a lot of people think there are laws against flag burning because it's one of those more-political-than-thou sorts of issues. Such a great way to drum up votes by talking it up, but no way it'd ever get passed.

I still like the fellow in the stars and stripes spedo participating in mischief. Particularly if he has a nice ass.


I wonder if I'd get lynched if I flew the Stars and Bars. It means such radically different things to different people.
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Postby unjonharley » Thu Oct 04, 2007 5:39 pm

some one try to tell me this: why would some one want to use there vacation time to go to the world largest party.. then try to ruin some one elses party, inflict there beleifes or others, break the law and ruin there own vacation or just be a stupid fuck up..

there is only one word for the negitive acts posted here and on other threads STUPID..

you fuck with my stuff.. I fuck with your head with my cane.. other fron that, i could give a rats ass what stupid shit you do.. your not changing anything or how i think..
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Postby Toolmaker » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:48 pm

Valkyrie wrote:Do a search if you don't believe me. It is NOT illegal to burn the flag in Nevada. It's illegal to put stuff on it (merchandise?!) but it's not (specifically) illegal to burn it.


I think "willfull mutilation" covers burning. I think the reason the law covers so many possibilities is because our enemies who hate freedom and the USA try to use many "excuses". Personally I think it would be alot cheaper for alot of these folks that hate America so much to just get a ticket somewhere else. After all the BM expenses you can pretty much fly anywhere to get away from all the evil Americans.

I have never burned a commie flag or even an islamic fundamentalist flag. Yet so many people hate what my flag stands for that they feel the need to burn it.

Whats even more disturbing is the retarded Americans that think burning the US flag will somehow protest the UN, NWO etc etc. How come you fuckwits don't burn the real flag? Or how about burning an effigy of a traitor to the US? While there may be a law protecting the current pres. from having his/her likeness burned I'm sure the Clintonistas and Daddy Bush are open season.

Keep in mind.. that flag and the Constitution are some of the last pieces of evidence we have that we were free at one point. After the first ammendment goes your supposed to look toward the second.

This IS a constitutional republic. I will defend my rights and freedoms from ALL enimies foreign and DOMESTIC. Am I disgusted that our country has been hijacked and replaced with a plutocracy? YES! But I am not going to burn my flag to protest another. Rather, I would use the ONE thing we have left to rally behind when the global scheme fails for the G8. When we have to pick up the pieces of their failed global entity we need to rally behind something and build upon something. Not to say we can't have a parliament or anything keen to improve down the road, but we need something. Anarchy isn't sustainable.. Communism and Socialism don't seem too sustainable. Whats so wrong about doing what you want without fucking with others, working and having a family?

Seriously.. the powers that be have some of you sheep SOO FUCKED in the head you don't know what the fuck is up. They have you fuckwits BURNING YOUR OWN FLAG! WTF do you think things are gonna be like when that flag is gone? WTF do you think is gonna happen when that "outdated" constitution is replaced? Do you REALLY think your life will be better under a their boots with unaccountable leaders in other countries acting more like heads of corporations?



























































PS Enjoy the freedoms that flag gives you while you have em. Pretty soon most folks won't be able to voice the opinions you are permitted to voice now. Than you'll friggin wish you paid more attention to folks like Thomas Jefferson, Jello Biafra, Noam Chomsky, Michael Parenti, Howard Zinn, and dozens of others I won't bother to list since many flag burners won't know who the fuck they are.
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Postby barnz » Thu Oct 04, 2007 6:57 pm

Valkyrie wrote:Your flags with laws printed on them? Now that's illegal.


I should have been more specific. By "Flag" (grocers quotes!) I meant a piece of cloth. Not a US Flag.

It may be illegal to write on a US flag in Nevada, but it's not illegal to print words on a blank piece of canvas....... ..... ..... ...



















or IS IT??? (dun-dun-daaaaaaaah)
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Community standards and the law

Postby SFNathan » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:09 pm

I think we can expect law enforcement at Burning Man to treat the issue of flag desecration about the same way they deal with explicit representations of sex in art on the playa and actual sex taking place on the playa.

There are countless pieces of art on the playa that have representations of nudity and even vaguely represent sex. But when a piece of art shown in public graphically represents sex (as happened with the Jiffylube theme camp sign a few years ago that had a moving art piece of two men having sex above their public entrance-way) - law enforcement will shut the art down.

If two people are having sex in a 'private tent' area, then law enforcement wont disturb them. If you are having sex openly on the playa, you can get arrested for lude conduct.

This will probably be the same standard law enforcement uses for flag desecration and flag burning this year. If flags are interpreted to be desecrated or burned, the 'flag art' could be taken down. If a person is in the act of desecrating or burning a flag, the person could get arrested citing Nevada law. The decision in these cases will be a subjective decision of the law enforcement officer on hand. The US constitution may protect the artist in court after the event is over, but some pissed off law enforcement officer could still cite Nevada law to tear down your art or haul your ass in jail for flag desecration.

What a fun theme that really explores the FREEDOMS of our nation... :(
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Postby thisisthatwhichis » Thu Oct 04, 2007 7:25 pm

I know there has been a lot of conversation around the topic, and I know it's likely to happen, but no one, that I know, has submitted an "art" project to desecrate the flag, yet to my knowledge..........

I think you all are selling your fellow Burners short...... Let's see what happens....... That's always fun anyway........... 8) ......... And if it Burns........... kewl........ 8)
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Postby BAS » Thu Oct 04, 2007 9:47 pm

Toolmaker wrote:PS Enjoy the freedoms that flag gives you while you have em. Pretty soon most folks won't be able to voice the opinions you are permitted to voice now. Than you'll friggin wish you paid more attention to folks like Thomas Jefferson, Jello Biafra, Noam Chomsky, Michael Parenti, Howard Zinn, and dozens of others I won't bother to list since many flag burners won't know who the fuck they are.


Jello Biafra! That's the name I couldn't recall when I was working on my list of who I probably should contact WRT to my pro-flag burning camp!

BTW, the only name which doesn't ring any bells for me is Michael Parenti. (Although, having just looked him up, I think I have heard his positions.)


FWT, most burnings of the U.S. flag take place overseas, places not much effected by U.S. laws.



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Postby Lassen Forge » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:07 am

Someone want an idea for an art project for next year?

How about a flag made of Kevlar and Asbestos cloth weave? Over a perpetual flame. Doesn't burn.
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Postby goathead » Fri Oct 05, 2007 2:14 am

Nevada is a red state, worse, you're in "cowboy country" up in Pershing county, and as liberal a bias as you may have, the locals... and the fuzz there... won't share your sense of artistic freedom.


Sue has a good point here, I wouldn't worry to much about LEO as much as destroying the good will we have built up over the last few years with the locals here. About 25% the population here hates us, another 25% just tolerate us as a real pain in the ass. Do you really want to find out what Bruno's politics are? Or just what it takes to insult the folks at the Empire Store? Where would you all be if they decided, "screw this I don't need to put up with this shit" and just locked up for a week, and took a little vaction themselves? Overnight camping is becoming a thing of the past at Pyrmid Lake right now, I don't know if this is related to us or not, but I have to wonder because of the timing.

Wonder how many buy gas in Nixon, Empire, Gerlach?
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Postby BAS » Fri Oct 05, 2007 6:36 am

Bay Bridge Sue wrote:Someone want an idea for an art project for next year?

How about a flag made of Kevlar and Asbestos cloth weave? Over a perpetual flame. Doesn't burn.


Hmm. Does Kevlar melt? I *think* asbestos can burn, if it gets hot enough-- so as long as the flame is kept cool enough (and doesn't put out a lot of soot, of course). Alternatively, of course, it could be a flag painted on a piece of metal.

I like the idea! 8)



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Postby Lassen Forge » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:26 am

The paint would burn off once it got hot enough.

I think kevlar *may* discolor, I seem to remember the poi I've seen is blackish, but that could just be from the fuel.

Asbestos is a rock. If it burns you're in trouble. Of course, it's also a carcinogen, when friable (not sealed so it's dust can get into the air) it can give you such wonderful things as Mesothelioma (yes, I know what that is, unfortunately), you'd have to handle it with kid gloves. Of course, there *is* the thing about even being able to get the stuff... but I know the sources are out there, if you can bribe the right people...

Lessee... fiberglass, if the flame was cool enough, would take testing.
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Postby BAS » Fri Oct 05, 2007 7:38 am

I seem to remember reading that to test kids' pajamas you are supposed to cut a sample of the cloth and burn it, if the flame turns green, it has asbestos. (I do admit that I have always wondered about that, though.) I am guessing that it is the dust which changes the flame's color.

Yeah, I don't know as the health risks are worth it. If people don't mess with the flag, it would probably be safe enough...; however, I don't like the odds! Especially if *I* would wind up breathing around the damage!

Huh. A high temperature enamel finish on some sort of ceramic? That is getting WAY out of my league!



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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Oct 05, 2007 8:28 am

i do have a nice ass....

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu ... id=3820484


scroll down...left side, under "heroes".....

OR HERE....
http://www.lux666.com/photos/index.php? ... mFilters=t

http://www.lux666.com/photos/index.php? ... mFilters=t

for a pic of furniture i make.....it's from "parts"

BUT NEVER EVER AN AMERICAN FLAG....

Teo?......is that you, ted of Hotel 666 and Versed?
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Postby Valkyrie » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:21 pm

Well done! Pity the tat would be covered by said flag when wearing the speedos. You just can't get as much flag on a thong.

Oh, and on the flag mutilation business. I'm thinking you could probably get away with burning one if you burned it all up and followed the BM custom of Leave No Trace.

Although it does sound kinda contrary, I do like Toolmaker's thoughts on "Use it or lose it, it's OUR flag, dammit!" But symbols are funny. Red and white stripes without the star bits would be meaningless. White stars on a blue field would be meaningless. Put 'em both together and everyone's up in arms. It is interesting to poke around with meaning and interpretation of 'em.


I have to admit I also find it supremely ironic that a lot of the people who are staunch defenders of the eminence of the flag are equally opposed to admitting the 'huddled masses yearning to breathe free'.
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Postby Burner till death » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:35 pm

Thats not how pajamas are tested. All they require is to be self extinguishing. Means they will not propogate a flame. Take the flame away and they are supposed to stop burning.
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Postby SFNathan » Fri Oct 05, 2007 12:42 pm

“I have to admit I also find it supremely ironic that a lot of the people who are staunch defenders of the eminence of the flag are equally opposed to admitting the 'huddled masses yearning to breathe free'.â€
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:14 pm

goodness, Im dropping my efforts at civility, but there are so many boneheads on both sides of the issue.

dont cheapen a miraculous document called the Constitution by equating flag burning with free speech. It does nothing to enhance the marketplace of ideas contemplated by reason and by historical analysis surrounding the creation of the Constiution.

Flag burning is spitting off a balcony. Government should not pass laws to prevent you from doing it, but if a WWII vet who hunkered down in disease-laden trenches while his buddies got their boots blown off wants to jack you in the jaw for burning old Glory, that should be just as permitted. It IS "my flag" but what I rally around is the freedom it represents. But freedom comes with responsibilities to yourself and to your fellow citizens to exercise your rights judiciously and with respect for others.

I do wonder if LEOs will enforce a flag burning ordinance when they dont enforce public nudity or sexually explicit signs and artwork. Maybe some individual LEOs will, because flag burning is more likely to be offensive than watching nubile women run around topless. Who knows?

The greater harm to our Community (drink!) -such that it is-- is that flag burning will be yet another arrow in the quiver of those who want to shut BM down. We are fighting a battle against public perception of self-absorbed drugs and lewdityand to the extent the theme this year will inspire some, ahem, "artists" to burn the US Flag, it is a very very dangerous step in the wrong direction.

But we learned from 2005 Borg2 Wars that one of our biggest problems is the top-down approach taken by BMorg. Its Larry Harvey's party (not John Law or Cacaphony's party) and Larry has proven time and time again that he doesn't give a shit what the unwashed hordes of volunteers who make his event happen actually think or care about.

That my friends, is really at the heart of the problem, along with Yahoos and self-absorbed "artists."
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