Public question for BORG on Placement/Sound Policy

Postby The Hosh » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:49 pm

Player wrote:
retropsycho wrote:Player claimed Outpost23 lied on their 2006 questionnaire --- a database Player has no access to. I have access, and they described their 2006 plans honestly and accurately.

Wrong. Totally false.


Wrong? Totally false? Really? Let's all scroll up to the top of the page and see what you said:

Player wrote:1. lied on their application that they only had 300 watts (permitting them to camp within camping areas - see: http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... sound.html) - and brought out 2000 watts on the excuse that their old amp died;


Oh, so it's not wrong and false that Player claimed Outpost 23 lied.

And one other thing:

Player wrote:Just behind the Esplanande equals campers equals people who may be sleeping at 4 to 7 am. Why is this so difficult for you to embrace? Loud camps that shake the earth with their music belong ON the Esplanade, not behind it.


As the Esplanade represents less than 4% of all street frontage, it's really very unreasonable to expect all the people who want to be loud at an event such as this, with 40,000+ participants, to be crammed into such a small space.
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Postby Sensei » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:09 pm

I can't believe the number of people I've met who really believe they're entitled to peace and quiet while living out past 9 (or 3) near the esplanade. Kee-rimeny, just freakin' move to the suburbs already.

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Postby Badger » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:16 pm

Just got an email from a camp soliciting financial contributions and advertising a 10,000 watt sound system at 3:00 and G.


10,000 watts?

Is 3:00 and G in the LSSA?

That is totally insane. I hope for the sake of people who are committed to camping in that area that this is not the case.


Well, 10,00 watts is kinda like having a Bugatti

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I mean, a 1001 horse power car is a pretty darn impressive machine to behold but it doesn't do you much when there's a speed limit to adhere to.

I can pretty much guarantee that all them ohms, watts, volts and amps won't be pumping out maximum volume music for long.

Saying 'fuck you' to the social contract in BRC with painfully loud music not set up along the designated areas of both 2:00 and 10:00 won't be tolerated by other attendees and it won't be tolerated by the event.
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Postby falk » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:39 pm

Teo del Fuego wrote:Just got an email from a camp soliciting financial contributions and advertising a 10,000 watt sound system at 3:00 and G


!!

I'm betting this is not a BMORG-approved camp. Who are they? Does BMORG know what they plan to do?
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Postby Player » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:48 pm

Hosh ~ thanks for the "contribution" to this discussion. But, I'm going to attempt to keep this discussion sane.

To reiterate, as is obvious by other posts, you cannot expect to sleep next to a large camp pounding you with sound in any part of the city. I truly believe that any camp that intends to blare music in the wee hours belong in LSSA or the Esplanade. When we set up, there was nothing across the street, nor did we know what was about to happen.

All your clever double negatives are cute, but the point remains it is:
1. TRUE I claimed they lied, and
2. FALSE that they described their camp in 2006 truthfully.

Please don't obfuscate the issue at hand.

It is entirely reasonable to expect to be able to camp AND sleep anywhere in BRC (except the LSSA and Esplanade) without 2000 watts of pys-trance 30 feet from your tent. If you attempt to blast sleeping people at 4 in the morning every night, you are irresponible. I'll keep repeating myself so long as others keep saying things that have already been discussed.

Good luck, Teo Del Fuego! We send our good thoughts for your sanity your way.

~ Player
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Postby unjonharley » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:22 pm

\/
if burning man is going to be an anti social assult on people the borg should say so..

no where else is this noise behavyior aloud..

music pointed out to the open playa has worked for a long time.. and people do dance all night long..

last year I put up with 48 hours of thumping... even when the campers themselfs weren t there.. The whole camp was set up so one fat girl could throw her ass around.. if anyone stoped by they left shortly.. the DJ was untalented and the mix was awful..

yes i'm talking about you PINK CRAP..

that nasty little tramp ranger told me it was "just to bad about you"

The year before i put up with a whole camp full of loud mouthed rangers.. I don t think being a ranger should give the right to be anti social.. any more than some fat girl that want to throw her ass around.. that was a sight
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Fri Aug 17, 2007 6:02 pm

falk wrote:I'm betting this is not a BMORG-approved camp. Who are they? Does BMORG know what they plan to do?


here's the posting in its entirety:

This year the Communikey folks are hauling a 10,000 watt sound system
out to the playa and featuring DJs from Wolf & Lamb
(http://www.wolflambmusic.com/), Communikey
(http://www.communikey.us/), Bruchstuecke records
(http://www.bruchstuecke.com/), New Mexico, San Francisco, Seattle,
and New York. We will also be providing music for a night at both
Disorient (With the Dex and Rex) and Image Node.

This is our collective response to what we have subjectively perceived
over the last 7 years of visits to the playa as too small of a
representation of the latest in quality electronic music on the playa.
We will be featuring performances at both fixed installations and
impromptu deep playa experiences aimed at stripping any current music
ideals outta your a head while transfusing your rhythmic blood cells
with what is a fresh new perspective on the black rock city electronic
music scene.

Having said the official stuff... we are going be setting up camp
somewhere around 3:00 and G. Come on by and hang out, have a drink,
get some music, enjoy some shade, talk about music and your freudian
inner child etc... :) I think we have around 40 folks in our camp. So,
someone will be around....

Featured Communikey DJs:

Attentat:
Tuesday Night @ Disorient Rex and Dex http://wiki.disorient.info/
Wednesday Night Deep Playa (~1:15)

Papyrus
Friday Night / Saturday Morning 2:15am - 3:30am Image Node
http://www.habitrail.org/
Saturday Night / Sunday Morning (Sunrise) 6:00am - 7:30am Deep
Playa (~1:15)

Shameless Request for Donations: We are also accepting donations to
help with the cost of the sound system, fuel and the like (Somewhere
around $2500 - $3000). Please email burningman-2007 (at) communikey.us
for more information. Every little bit helps.

Unfortunately our DJ schedule is overflowing, our time is limited and
we are unable to accept requests to play. Although, maybe we could
trade music?
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Postby retropsycho » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:07 pm

Here hopefully, is my last post on this subject. It is self-evident why I dismiss claims the Outpost23 lied on their questionnaire. They asked us "to be placed near late night friendly camps", away from "Noise sensitive areas". Very upfront and honest. No deception on their part.

Player wrote:FALSE that they described their camp in 2006 truthfully.


Theme Camp questionnaire, Outpost23, May 31, 2006:

"We are not large scale sound art. We should be placed somewhere between center camp stuff and large scale, maybe 8-ish? We have 4 TR225 JBL speakers with nominal impedance of 4 Ohms. We use a 300 watt amp. We use cd dj gear and have a muffler for the generator."

"We are a camp of psy-trance dj's who throw really great parties. We have been camping as O23 since 1999. One year we were approached by very grumpy neighbors and they told us that our music was not art. To turn something negative into something positive we now proclaim that psytrance is not art, we pass out mock petitions banning it from BRC, we cook grilled cheese and have a simple bar. We are all about having a good time with no drama. We also have daytime events lined up too (sign making party for your camp, 80's dancing, funk-adelic day).

Requested Placement Near other Groups: "We are not large scale sound, yet would like to be placed near late night friendly camps. Any smaller dance music, bars, late night stuff. Possibly 1 or 2 streets back bet 7PM-9PMish? I'm being very general though.

Request placement AWAY from: "Kids camp. Noise sensitive areas. Trance haters."
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Postby retropsycho » Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:33 pm

Teo del Fuego wrote:everyone talks about the LSSA, but seriously, the sound policy section of the BM site does not define its boundaries. I know Esplanade, that's a given, but G seems pretty deep, unless thast turns out to be on the very end of the crescent which I thought was 2:00

What gives? Is 3:00 and G in LSSA? It's a bit too late for our theme camp to pick up and move now they we've got our placement


LSSA zone is not just "the esplanade", but rather the esplanade at the ends of the city at 2:00 and 10:00.

http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... sound.html

"Large-scale sound installations MUST be located along the ends of our city"

(On 2:00 and 10:00 at the ends of all blocks Esplanade through Landfill)

"All large-scale sound systems will be located in the Large-Scale Sound Art Zone. Like all theme camps, these camps will be encouraged to be as creative and interactive as possible. The primary rule is that all speakers MUST be turned away from greater Black Rock City toward the open playa at all times. The deadline for large-sound art installations is first-come, first-served, so when these spots are filled, no more [LLSA] sound systems will be permitted within Black Rock City."
I will not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone . . . there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Postby Player » Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:18 am

retropsycho wrote:Here hopefully, is my last post on this subject. It is self-evident why I dismiss claims the Outpost23 lied on their questionnaire. They asked us "to be placed near late night friendly camps", away from "Noise sensitive areas". Very upfront and honest. No deception on their part.
Player wrote:FALSE that they described their camp in 2006 truthfully.

Theme Camp questionnaire, Outpost23, May 31, 2006:

"We are not large scale sound art. We should be placed somewhere between center camp stuff and large scale, maybe 8-ish? We have 4 TR225 JBL speakers with nominal impedance of 4 Ohms. We use a 300 watt amp . . .


But .. but .. but . . . they said THREE HUNDRED WATTS! (That's a "3" followed by two zeros). They brought TWO THOUSAND and pounded us relentlessly night after night, after we and many other folks in the vicinity BEGGED and PLEADED with them to tone it down and they put one large obnoxious sign that told us to "quit yer bitchin'." They told us in person and put up another sign that said since they were listed in the "Who What Where When" we couldn't do anything about their plans. They pounded the neighborhood - 30 feet from my sleeping head - from 4AM to 10, and put up yet another sign that told us to move if we didn't like it (which we did!!), and you call them, "upfront and honest"? They were anti-social to the fucking MAX. You have to TRY HARD to be that anti-social!

Seriously . . . are these friends of yours? Or are you just normally a defensive individual?

If they wanted to be away from noise sensitive areas, they would ask to be placed in an area that is not "noise sensitive," like the ESPLANADE or maybe the LSSA!!!!

It doesn't add up.

Why doesn't O23 just apologize for their actions, and BORG own up to the fact that LSSA (eg O23) belongs in areas where it is expected to occur?

~ Player
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:42 am

Player wrote:Seriously . . . are these friends of yours? Or are you just normally a defensive individual?


obviously thats not a serious question.

if he is comming across as defensive you have successfully placed him in that position. you have pushed beyond any comfortable point of people admitting things be handled better - and you are working against that happening despite whatever good intentions.

outpost23 have addressed the issues so nothing more can be done until the event. if they persist with the behavior that caused problems you can feel fully justified and say so, but until then please put this aside so placement can get to more pressing concerns.

its also my recommendation that placement ignore you here until after the event. thats not being dismissive, thats a genuine concern.
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Postby Player » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:12 am

Placers: Ignore this post. :?

I can apologize for the "seriously" comment, OBVIOUSLY meant as sarcasm, which is obviously not a permitted form of communication on THIS forum.

My final thought on this is that I don't understand how anyone could seriously describe O23 as "honest" (amongst all the other fab things that were put forward about them) when they said 300 watts and brought 2000 and cranked it to the max. How can anyone seriously defend that? There IS no defense for that - hence my question ala sarcasm.

Yes - let them get on with their 2007 tasks and problems, by all means - but does that mean they need or should feel empowered to dismiss legitimate concerns from previous years just because? I wasn't placing him in a defensive position. He put himself there by BEING defensive. He could have said - "you're right - they lied." But instead he chose to defend their right to lie and engage in rude anti-social behavior, thereby making ME look like I was being unreasonable in my concerns for OTHER citizens of BRC. (Because this has no bearing on my future at all. I have nothing to gain at all by illuminating others to my experience.)

FYI: I'm not here for justification. I already know O23 has changed their camp plans to safeguard the natural rights of their neighbors, who may never know what they have been spared, due to my efforts. I am now only responding to untruths - if you check the thread, you will see this to be so.

I think everyone here, including myself, is thankful for your time and effort in moderating. I only hope I haven't caused you and the placers too much grief.

~ Player
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Sat Aug 18, 2007 6:37 am

Scoop on Communikey's e-mail I posted above:

I heard from the camp honcho and although they are camping at 3:00 and G, their Wall-o-Sound 10,000 watts will be mobile and on the Deep Playa, not in the hood. Whew!

I agree that we all should be packing and getting excited now instead of reliving the past and pointing fingers. But the concern is genuine and compromises many others experience on the Playa besides the OP. But, as noted,the point was made and has been driven into the ground deeper than 4' rebar.

Okay, everyone, including me, step away from the keyboards. Start Packin!
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:11 am

a problem with one of your forms of commenting is thinking that stretches of logic into false conclusions are going to help anything you say be taken seriously.
Player wrote:..which is obviously not a permitted form of communication on THIS forum.

since there is no truth to that, and even though its meant as sarcasm you do it to make a point. that still makes you.. well.. an asshole, and indistinguishable from all those others you engage here.

welcome to arguments on the internet.

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Postby unjonharley » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:23 am

spec, i suggest, you yourself are becoming a disagreeable ass..
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Postby MikeVDS » Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:26 am

a problem with one of your forms of commenting is thinking that stretches of logic into false conclusions are going to help anything you say be taken seriously.


Well said.
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Postby Archantael » Sat Aug 18, 2007 8:07 am

Misplaced LSSC problem final resolution tools...only if civilized negotiation has failed and the Rangers find they are powerless to pull the plug.

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Vigilante action is never a good thing but if all else fails....and especially if it's an annual problem and not just a one time thing...
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:17 am

unjonharley wrote:spec, i suggest, you yourself are becoming a disagreeable ass..


yeah, and from that pic i could really use a shave.
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Postby Ron » Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:33 am

Oh, I don't know. Based on that picture I thought you might be cute, in another 20 or 30 years...

;)

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Postby Sassy » Sat Aug 18, 2007 1:08 pm

My final thought on this is that I don't understand how anyone could seriously describe O23 as "honest" (amongst all the other fab things that were put forward about them) when they said 300 watts and brought 2000 and cranked it to the max.


Sweetums, this is OBVIOUSLY the ONE POINT that certain people keep conveniently overlooking so you have to continue coming back to this thread to drive the same point home. Are they intentionally ignoring this point? The one point that started it all? The one point that caused this entire complaint? The one point that has caused the discussion among all of the people in this thread? I find it INCREDIBLY HUMOROUS AND BIZARRE that this one point has been overlooked time and time again. It's just 100%, totally and completely pitiful, annoying and disheartening, to say the least.

There's only so much one can do or say. I believe you've done your part in spades, my sweet Player. And on behalf of everyone in BRC who has ever had to deal with this CRAP, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

Now, come kiss me!!! 8)
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Re: Public question for BORG on Placement/Sound Policy

Postby bdeywoo » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:48 pm

I'm somewhat shocked that you consider 2 streets from the esplanade and 1/2 hour from 10 O Clock the "quet zone". Though limited me experiences would suggest that anything close to the edge (10 and 2) or within 5-6 streets of the esplanade is pretty much busy 24/7.

I read your previous thread about the problem and sympathize with you but, why staw anywhere near there again?
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Re: Public question for BORG on Placement/Sound Policy

Postby bdeywoo » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:48 pm

I'm somewhat shocked that you consider 2 streets from the esplanade and 1/2 hour from 10 O Clock the "quet zone". Though limited me experiences would suggest that anything close to the edge (10 and 2) or within 5-6 streets of the esplanade is pretty much busy 24/7.

I read your previous thread about the problem and sympathize with you but, why stay anywhere near there again?
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Aug 20, 2007 1:59 pm

one year there was the biggesr speaker i have ever seen.. had it s own trailer.. it was at abot c and 8 o'clock.. it looked to be water cooled.. they had dances in the afternoon.. the dam thing went up in smoke about the third day
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Re: Public question for BORG on Placement/Sound Policy

Postby Player » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:09 pm

bdeywoo wrote:I'm somewhat shocked that you consider 2 streets from the esplanade and 1/2 hour from 10 O Clock the "quet zone". Though limited me experiences would suggest that anything close to the edge (10 and 2) or within 5-6 streets of the esplanade is pretty much busy 24/7.

I read your previous thread about the problem and sympathize with you but, why stay anywhere near there again?


Ahem . . . as I said . . . loud late night large scale sound amplification belongs on the line that begins along 10:00 running down the Esplanade over to 2:00 on towards the back. Any screaming speakers anywhere else late night (say, like after 2 or 3 am) should not be allowed, and it is the BORG's responsitibilty, IMHO, to make this as important as the other mantras, eg "Leave No Trace", or "If it didn't come out of your body, Don't throw it in the potty." etc etc.

As far as staying "anywhere near there again," no, we wouldn't. We've decided after eight years of theme camping, we're just going to make a simple camp with friends - and do it where we will ensure nothing exists to pound our brains into mush - at least until NOON.

Of course, as I hope you know, we have gone over this ad naseum. Let's not rehash this anymore.

~ Player
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:22 pm

some have seem to think placement has been careless.. if that is the case.. why have no large outlaw sound stages been placed next to or behind first camp?

or why have'nt the free/open camp outlaws set up to blast first camp

they know damn well what would happen if they did..

so lets not let anyone blow smoke up your ass.. th borg can and dose have control over this shit..
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Postby trilobyte » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:30 pm

I don't mean to revive the whole debate, I just wanted to post my experience from the playa this year. My camp (Eridu) was directly across the street from Outpost 23 this year. Our experience was that they were awesome and respectful. As they'd stated with their camp application this year they were taking the big sound mobile. All they had at camp in the way of music was a small system that ran during daytime hours. The O23 campers were friendly and sociable and cool, helped make for a nice neighborhood.

~Trilo~
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Re: Public question for BORG on Placement/Sound Policy

Postby retropsycho » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:32 pm

Player wrote:As far as staying "anywhere near there again," no, we wouldn't. We've decided after eight years of theme camping, we're just going to make a simple camp with friends - and do it where we will ensure nothing exists to pound our brains into mush - at least until NOON.
~ Player


FINALLY an admission that sound-wise, the back side of the esplanade block isn't for you.

It sure took awhile, but you got there.

Congratulations!
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Postby pinemom » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:27 pm

Ok just because I can...I will make a small comment.

Im not a spring chicken either...but I aint dead yet!
The first couple nights at BM, I dont sleep well because of the noise, and it would be pretty wierd to see a person walking around asleep anyway...CAUSE I DONT SLEEP for the first night! When I do finally lay my head to rest, Im so exausted from setting up camp, I pass out! and fall into the wonderful musical thumpa thumpa thumpa of my playa dreams.

When we get back to default world, thats even worse...I cant sleep without my thumpa thumpa thumpa...can you imagine what my DEFAULT neighbors think?!

Or to qoute the magical words of S.E.D.
"Oonza Oonza Oonza, everybody hates you,Oonza Oonza Oonza,you suck,Oonza Oonza Oonza,nobody likes you,Oonza Oonza Oonza, go home,Oonza Oonza Oonza~"
Names pinemom, but my friends call me "Piney".
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Postby thisisthatwhichis » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:35 pm

Player.... Dude..... If ya get close to any theme camps, Esplanade, or the outer edge of the circle...... Ya hafta expect LOUD interactivity...... WTF, Dude.... Go kamp at Z and 7:30, or Gerlach...... This is stupid...........
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It's show time, folks.....Joe Gideon
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Postby MikeVDS » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:51 pm

This is stupid...........


Don't you get it? He just wants quiet around the hours he thinks people should be sleeping! Sounds like a reasonable, non self centered request. :roll:
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