Public question for BORG on Placement/Sound Policy

Public question for BORG on Placement/Sound Policy

Postby Player » Sat Aug 11, 2007 5:57 pm

Dear BORG and Burners --

I'd like to know why - oh why - after I had shared the information of our plight with Outpost 23 aka THE AFTERPARTY last year (see viewtopic.php?t=15111), that the organizers could once again place an avowed late night party sound-blasting 2000 watts of extreme techno dance music (commencing at 4am and ending around 10am) near "residential" sleeping areas rather than on the Esplanade or the LSSA (Large Sound Scale Art). I'd also like to know why I have yet to hear any sort of response from BORG on this issue.

I think it's just lovely that these kids wanna come out with their big amps and blow everyone away with their pys-trance freak-out music . . . BUT, even though they KNOW damn well they belong in a more appropriate area, last year they:

1. lied on their application that they only had 300 watts (permitting them to camp within camping areas - see: http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... sound.html) - and brought out 2000 watts on the excuse that their old amp died;

2. refused to be camped in the LSSA area (according to one of the city planners) when it was suggested that they might be best put there;

3. refused to comply with several neighbors' request to not torture us who were sleeping within 100 feet of the installation;

4. put up signs telling anyone who didn't like them that they should move somewhere else;

5. told everyone that they should live with it because BORG placed them there and they were "advertised" in the "Who, What, Where, When" as to what their plans were;

6. had a resident ranger (Mockingbird) as part of their camp to officially fend off disgruntled neighbors; and

7. whined like babies when, after six days of a major sound assault on over 50 people who had already set up their camps, some girl finally walked over and unplugged their speakers.

Now they are placed at 9:30 and Boreal for Bman 2007, which is basically the same place they were placed in 2006. Is that a good place for an extremely loud sound system that commences at 4 in the morning? Has not BORG been paying any attention at all at what this camp did to their neighbors in 2006?

Okay, maybe they have a different routine planned for this year (ie, low volume), but if you plan on camping in that area around Boreal and 9:30 - you might want to check out their plans before you pound in your stakes!

As for us, we're taking a year off - or more. But we love the event, nonetheless, and hope it continues to offer to others what it gave to us. We truly believe that for that to happen, BORG needs to find ways to enforce certain "rules" that have already been established for the common good. We're talking about 50,000 people this year. With this many people out there, I believe certain standards need to be put in place - and I am suggesting that this starts with the camp placement team!

Are these people from Outpost 23 -- who have already proved themselves to be entirely irresponisble, incompassionate, and non-responsive to the needs of their immediate neighbors -- going to be allowed to torture the people who camp near Boreal and 9:30 for the second year in a row?

Of course - why do I care since we're not going this year? Because I care for the event and I hope to return someday. But this won't happen as long as individual camps are allowed to use sound to assault their neighbors. Camps with huge sound belong in the LSSA or the Esplanade with speakers facing outward. It would be nice to hear an official response from BORG since I first posed the question back in September of 2006.

-- Player
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Postby Badger » Sat Aug 11, 2007 6:23 pm

Player, you'll probably get no answer to your post this late in the game not on this board anyway.

However, your post is being forwarded on to others where hopefully, some appropriate attention will be given to it.
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Aug 11, 2007 7:33 pm

Badger wrote:However, your post is being forwarded on to others where hopefully, some appropriate attention will be given to it.


who would this be?

i am curious, because despite a ranger being involved during all of it while it happened, i followed up with a different ranger during the controversy here but heard nothing back.
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Postby MikeVDS » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:18 pm

Now they are placed at 9:30 and Boreal for Bman 2007, which is basically the same place they were placed in 2006.


Wait, I would not set up camp anywhere in that area and expect to get much sleep, and you expect to get sleep without a good constitution AND earplugs? I don't know the situation but based on some of your reasoning "They whined when someone messed with their equipment", it sounds like you're trying to stretch things a bit. If you want some level of quiet, set up camp on the outer edges. If you're that far in, there will be partying and other noise making going on, and depending on your neighbors it might be all night.

On a side note, the watt measurement for sound is a dumb one to begin with. It would not be too hard to have a couple people out there with dB meters. Instead of what, clamp on ammeters? I don't know how they enforce that. I could deafen people with 300W or I could set up 2 kW in a way to be less disturbing to neighbors than most 300W systems. Amp draw gives some idea, but it is not something I'm satisfied with.

I'm doubting you because some of your arguments seem incredibly lame and I've seen and heard a lot of unreasonable whiners. Sorry if you really have reasonable gripes, but if you want to get people to take you seriously, you might want to rethink some of the things you complain about.
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Aug 11, 2007 9:36 pm

MikeVDS wrote:I'm doubting you because some of your arguments seem incredibly lame and I've seen and heard a lot of unreasonable whiners. Sorry if you really have reasonable gripes, but if you want to get people to take you seriously, you might want to rethink some of the things you complain about.


please read the previous eplaya discussions rather than anyone attempting to add to a debate with things that were already mentioned. once again, the original topic provided - viewtopic.php?t=15111

dragonfly jafe's approach to mitigate the situation is a much better example on alternative ways to deal with this rather than escalate into something personal - viewtopic.php?t=15311

and since frog became aware of this problem, why not followup with him? - profile.php?mode=viewprofile&u=15785
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Postby MikeVDS » Sat Aug 11, 2007 10:24 pm

Hahaha. I read that whole discussion. Interesting read. It only makes it clearer to me though that Player is one of those unreasonable whiners though. I have to agree that you are technically 100% in the right Player, but you would be hard pressed to find one camp that is not breaking some law or rule. It sounds like you had many chances and ways to easily remedy this problem without trying to ruin your own experience and the experience of a camp that probably put out a lot to put on a good time for other people. Instead of taking the easy route you figure "I am right" and fight the battle? So what if you're right? It seems like you are one of those people that I don't want as a co-worker, neighbor or friend, because you you'll pick out any small technical detail and call foul because you don't like what is going on, which is probably common.

Really, a 2000w system should not be a big deal where they were at. The rule is crazy to begin with that you either have to compete with 20, 50 or even 100kW systems or be limited to 300w. When odd rules are set they are going to be broken. And if you camp closer to the main areas it will be loud. Let go of the anger and do the things this year that you know will keep you from having a similar problem. I hope you're not planning on camping near them again to prove that you're right.
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Re: Public question for BORG on Placement/Sound Policy

Postby retropsycho » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:03 pm

Player wrote:Dear BORG and Burners --

I'd like to know why - oh why - after I had shared the information of our plight with Outpost 23 aka THE AFTERPARTY last year (see viewtopic.php?t=15111), that the organizers could once again place an avowed late night party sound-blasting 2000 watts of extreme techno dance music (commencing at 4am and ending around 10am) near "residential" sleeping areas rather than on the Esplanade or the LSSA (Large Sound Scale Art). I'd also like to know why I have yet to hear any sort of response from BORG on this issue.


Hi -

The ePlaya has become a place to avoid for many staffers. Too much flaming and other discourtesies. It is NOT the best way to send a message to the placement team. placement@burningman.com is.

The responsible, compassionate, and responsive organizers of Outpost23 have a different plan this year (see below).

Player, enjoy a large serving of crow off playa, while the rest of us resolve conflicts without resorting to exaggerations and falsehoods.

~ Retro, Placement Team
Burning Man Project, Gerlach, NV

from Outpost 23's 2007 Theme Camp Questionnaire:

Date: May 29, 2007 9:55:57 PM PDT
To: placement@burningman.com
Subject: Theme Camp Questionnaire: Outpost23

Camp Name:
---------
Outpost23

You would prefer to camp near...:
--------------------------------
('We would prefer to be near lively camps, sound/ interactive art camps (not next to large scale), bars, funhouses, blacklight temples, Pink Elephant type setups, silly chaos worshippers...',)

You would prefer not to camp near...:
------------------------------------
('Kids camp, quiet camps, meditation camps, AEZ, chill zones....',)

Interactivity Description:
-------------------------
We are Outpost23, a choas/DJ/theatre/megaphone camp. We believe in the unexpected and the beauty of chaos. We believe firmly in the motto "Psytrance Is Not Art!" (PINA). This year we will be taking our late night psy-trance parties out into the open playa (and away from the camping area) via our "Psytance Is Not Art" boombox bus. WE HAD SOME CONFLICTS WITH NEIGHBORS OVER SOUND LAST YEAR AND TO MAKE IT BETTER ON EVERYONE, WE DECIDED TO TAKE THE NIGHT-TIME SOUND ART AWAY FROM CAMP [emphasis mine]. We will have daytime events too: 80's parties, and a Horror theatre show 3-4 times during the week. Outpost23 has been an on playa presence since 1996.

Sound Amplification:
-------------------
yes

Sound Amplification Details:
---------------------------
Our sound system is mounted to a bus which we are taking out to the open
desert during late night hours to respect our neighbors. . . . .We are not large scale sound and prefer not to be that far out in the city.

---------------------------

Player wrote:I think it's just lovely that these kids wanna come out with their big amps and blow everyone away with their pys-trance freak-out music . . . BUT, even though they KNOW damn well they belong in a more appropriate area, last year they:

1. lied on their application that they only had 300 watts (permitting them to camp within camping areas - see: http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... sound.html) - and brought out 2000 watts on the excuse that their old amp died;

2. refused to be camped in the LSSA area (according to one of the city planners) when it was suggested that they might be best put there;

3. refused to comply with several neighbors' request to not torture us who were sleeping within 100 feet of the installation;

4. put up signs telling anyone who didn't like them that they should move somewhere else;

5. told everyone that they should live with it because BORG placed them there and they were "advertised" in the "Who, What, Where, When" as to what their plans were;

6. had a resident ranger (Mockingbird) as part of their camp to officially fend off disgruntled neighbors; and

7. whined like babies when, after six days of a major sound assault on over 50 people who had already set up their camps, some girl finally walked over and unplugged their speakers.

Now they are placed at 9:30 and Boreal for Bman 2007, which is basically the same place they were placed in 2006. Is that a good place for an extremely loud sound system that commences at 4 in the morning? Has not BORG been paying any attention at all at what this camp did to their neighbors in 2006?

Okay, maybe they have a different routine planned for this year (ie, low volume), but if you plan on camping in that area around Boreal and 9:30 - you might want to check out their plans before you pound in your stakes!

As for us, we're taking a year off - or more. But we love the event, nonetheless, and hope it continues to offer to others what it gave to us. We truly believe that for that to happen, BORG needs to find ways to enforce certain "rules" that have already been established for the common good. We're talking about 50,000 people this year. With this many people out there, I believe certain standards need to be put in place - and I am suggesting that this starts with the camp placement team!

Are these people from Outpost 23 -- who have already proved themselves to be entirely irresponisble, incompassionate, and non-responsive to the needs of their immediate neighbors -- going to be allowed to torture the people who camp near Boreal and 9:30 for the second year in a row?

Of course - why do I care since we're not going this year? Because I care for the event and I hope to return someday. But this won't happen as long as individual camps are allowed to use sound to assault their neighbors. Camps with huge sound belong in the LSSA or the Esplanade with speakers facing outward. It would be nice to hear an official response from BORG since I first posed the question back in September of 2006.

-- Player
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I will not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone . . . there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Aug 11, 2007 11:40 pm

THANKS FOR STICKING YOUR NECK OUT RETRO!
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Postby Zulegoona » Sun Aug 12, 2007 7:30 am

Thank Retro,

But Player said Outpost 23 wants to be the loudest most obnoxious kid on the block ,and those other kids are bigger bullies and his mom can’t come help and having a satellite camp out in the burbs for sleeping s to much work and there psy-trance is so much better than everyone else's psy-trance and everyone could see that and know there DJ’s are psy-trance gods, and everybody could get laid and nobody would be sleeping and there wouldn’t be a problem can’t you make it better?

Course he’s going to hold his breath for a year and Outpost 23 seems to have found a good solution so never mind,.......
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Postby Ron » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:02 am

Big kudos to Retro for the info and participation.

It seems to me that Player has no monopoly on the the examples of bad behavior discussed in this, and the related threads. In fact, while the details of Player's points may very well be exaggerated a bit, it is only reasonable to expect such exaggeration after days of conflict with an unreasonably loud camp. When one kid gets punched by another kid, the one who took the blow may very well get all whiney and drama filled in reaction. However, that doesn't diminish the wrong done by the kid who threw that punch.

Outpost 23 was wrong to ignore the complaints of their neighbors. It's that simple. If Player's ongoing efforts played some role in Outpost 23's plans for this year, then kudos to Player for being determined and unflagging in the face of hostility from both Outpost 23 and those folk who have derided Player's efforts. This year's neighbors of Outpost 23 have Player, and other burners who expressed their displeasure last year, to thank for any improvement that may occur this year in Outpost 23's sound behavior.

Frankly, I believe, the whole "bring your earplugs, what you expect to sleep?" line that is so often posted is just another way of blaming the victim. The first line of responsibility is with the folk making the noise, I'd contend. Just like the first line of responsibility is with the mugger who picks on drunks to stop breaking the rules, rather than on the drunks to stop drinking or to expect to be mugged if they go to certain neighborhoods...

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Postby MikeVDS » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:33 am

The first line of responsibility is with the folk making the noise, I'd contend.


I have to agree to a point. I'm sure we also both agree that there are and should be places for loud sound/noise at burningman. It seems unreasonable that camps places on or near main areas should have to work around others sleeping schedules. It didn't seem like they were too loud in general (from the descriptions given) mostly that they made it hard to sleep. Though they were breaking the rules, there are many other ways people make a lot of noise that can be more disturbing than loud music, while obeying the rules. We camped across the street from the petting zoo (a popular bar) last year and they were very loud every night without music. I think it is unreasonable to plop down in popular parts of the city and expect for there not to be loud noise while you sleep. People like to play differently at different times and in different places. At this sort of event you should expect loud noises, if you're closer to the front, you REALLY should expect loud noises. That is why people say they should have brought earplugs. It seems to me that they have unreasonable and unrealistic expectations for where they are at; burningman near the main street. If they had been a loud rowdy bar instead, they may have been just as loud and technically within the rules. Realistically, the situation is the same either way.
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Postby wedeliver » Sun Aug 12, 2007 10:37 am

All of you make a lot of sense and who would ever want to bother anyone BUT It was but just a few years back that it was noisy all over the city all night long. Personally I miss that, chaos and sleep deprivation help me with my sensory experiencies. What about the art? Is the art harmed or helped if 40,000 burners are like the walking dead, could'nt tell up from down??

I can't wait to be kept awake by some asshole playing their music too loud, fucking a.. I can't wait till some jerk sneaks up behind me and hollers in his megaphone........ I can't wait till that thumpa thumpa thumpa makes my chest beat all night long.. (i'm old but not dead yet)(fuck, I'm a topless shirtcocking yahoo hippy)

YAHOO WE'RE GOING TO THE BURN

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Postby Token » Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:16 pm

I'm with the "topless shirtcocking yahoo hippy" on this.

These days the "burbs" are eerily quiet after 10pm. Like a fucking graveyard. I have to regularly check my pulse and blood pressure.

Need more loud-ass art cars cruising the burbs playing "Eye of the Tiger" at max volume at 3:31 am.

:)
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Postby unjonharley » Sun Aug 12, 2007 12:56 pm

[quote="Token"]I'm with the "topless shirtcocking yahoo hippy" on this.

These days the "burbs" are eerily quiet after 10pm. Like a fucking graveyard. I have to regularly check my pulse and blood pressure.

Need more loud-ass art cars cruising the burbs playing "Eye of the Tiger" at max volume at 3:31 am.

:)[/quote

\/
that can make for some mighty low tier pressure..;(
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Aug 12, 2007 1:40 pm

then here's an important question that can be followed up with the placement people: has the suburbs improved in being quiet?

if so, then i think they deserve recognition for making that improvement in placing sound camps. if not, then discuss why.

like many other groups they get hit with significant insults and bitching to the point of wanting to avoid greater interaction with people. please note the comment about this board not supporting that, because its one of the things i would like to continue to work on improving. so we can all bitch and insult each other.. or try concentrating on working better with a group thats in a position to make a positive change.

there may be other options if someone can come up with them, dragonflyjafe could provide good insight from his attempt.
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Postby Player » Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:45 pm

First of all, I'd like to publicly apologize to Outpost 23 for reopening this issue without the facts at hand - the facts being that they have changed their camp to take their music out to the playa!
retropsycho wrote: Player, enjoy a large serving of crow off playa, while the rest of us resolve conflicts without resorting to exaggerations and falsehoods.

~ Retro, Placement Team
Burning Man Project, Gerlach, NV

[Sarcasm on]
How nice of you. Thanks for the pleasant thoughts.
[Sarcasm off]
retropsycho wrote: Interactivity Description:
We are Outpost23 . . . . . . This year we will be taking our late night psy-trance parties out into the open playa (and away from the camping area) via our "Psytance Is Not Art" boombox bus. WE HAD SOME CONFLICTS WITH NEIGHBORS OVER SOUND LAST YEAR AND TO MAKE IT BETTER ON EVERYONE, WE DECIDED TO TAKE THE NIGHT-TIME SOUND ART AWAY FROM CAMP [emphasis mine]. . . . . .

Sound Amplification Details:
---------------------------
Our sound system is mounted to a bus which we are taking out to the open desert during late night hours to respect our neighbors. . . . .We are not large scale sound and prefer not to be that far out in the city.

I really think that's WONDERFUL! Even though we will not be there to enjoy the absence, I'm so happy for them AND their neighbors!

To the placement team - I understand the pressure you must be under. I hope my post-event bitching has helped illuminate things you might not have otherwise known. I did not mean to insult you or unfairly criticize the work you are doing on behalf of the event. So I would also like to apologize to anyone who I may have insulted during any of my rants.

To MikeDVS - you don't know what you are talking about. You sound like one of those people who blab on about things that they have not taken the time to think about or learn about. Your comments are so off base and did not contribute a thing to the discussion. Sassy and I are not playa idiots. We both know to expect certain things in BRC - we ought to after 10 years of participation! (see http://blackrocktribe.com). I love the noise of the city and have drifted off to glorious slumber with my consciousness drifting on the happy sounds of drums and sound systems off in the distance. I have been many a time temporarily woken by the sound of crazy art cars blasting their music as they roll by. I love that shit, okay? If you "hahaha" actually did "read that whole discussion," you wouldn't have made any of your rude comments, repeat things that had already been said, or flame me for things that had already been settled. I could go over your posts with explanations of how far off you are, but I doubt you'd be capable of actually concentrating long enough to comprehend my words.

Lastly, I'd like to thank:

1.) the folks of Outpost23 for rethinking their camp in terms of the people who are sleeping in their general vicinity;
2.) Retro for sharing the information on Outpost 23's new plans;
3.) Spectabillis for moderating and sharing his thoughts;
4.) Ron for his insightful and thoughtful contributions to the discussion;
5.) everone else who took the time to consider all of this to help create a better BRC; and lastly
6.) myself for putting myself in the vulnerable position of being publicly chastised on a contentious controversial topic for the betterment of BRC.

I wish you all a fabulous burn! Be safe.

Cheers,
-- Player
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Postby Player » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:17 pm

PS: I would just like to add that the only fact I may have "exaggerated" was the whining comment in my orginal post (pt #7). That was hearsay. They did complain about several things in the old thread that were done to them that I had NO part of, nor do I condone. One of those complaints, (or whining) was about the girl who disconnected their speakers - something I would not have done. We opted for moving rather than extreme confrontation. I stand by everything else I said, which are the facts as I experienced them and believe to be true.
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Postby MikeVDS » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:49 pm

I could go over your posts with explanations of how far off you are, but I doubt you'd be capable of actually concentrating long enough to comprehend my words.


I only made a couple assumptions in my posts, the rest is my opinion, not just of your specific situation, but of all of burningman. You stated yours too, they differ. I'm not trying to flame, just typing what I think of the situation. Take the tone not as hostile, but just matter of fact. If I'm thinking it, others are probably too. If O23 has posted a similar thing I would have a negative opinion of them too. They clearly broke the rules, and if they cannot cope with their neighbors within the rules they agreed to, they should have rethought their camp.

Honestly most of these situations are the fault of both parties, as this one seems. The unfortunate thing is that usually a simple gesture, before things escalate, can fix the problem. I'm not perfect. I've been in similar conflicts. Looking back they were all my fault. They were the fault of the other person too, but no more than I was at fault. It doesn't matter who was "right", it matters how it was dealt with and what the final outcome is. You can dismiss what I say or you can take it as a cue to look at what you're doing and saying in a public forum and wonder how it looks to everyone else. You don't have to air your dirty laundry in here, and yes it's your dirty laundry as much as it is O23s, but if you do, you'll get opinions and you may not like some.
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Postby MikeVDS » Sun Aug 12, 2007 4:57 pm

One of those complaints, (or whining) was about the girl who disconnected their speakers - something I would not have done.


If it's something you would not have done, you admit that their complaint about that may be valid? In your first post you made it sound like their 'whining" was not valid. That is one reason you made yourself look unreasonable, and if you're being unreasonable about something like that, how do you expect people to take the rest of your complaints seriously? If you have a serious complaint, you don't need to stretch things or use words like "torture" to describe what they did. The facts without the exaggerations and emotionally charged words should tell the story.
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Postby Player » Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:27 am

MikeVDS --

Mmmm . . . well, thanks for your honesty and your advice. Either way, I'm just so glad that, regardless of whatever anyone thinks about this, it's settled and came to a happy conclusion.

It's all good. Enjoy your burn.

Cheers,
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Postby Sassy » Fri Aug 17, 2007 12:17 pm

Interactivity Description:
-------------------------
We are Outpost23, a choas/DJ/theatre/megaphone camp. We believe in the unexpected and the beauty of chaos. We believe firmly in the motto "Psytrance Is Not Art!" (PINA). This year we will be taking our late night psy-trance parties out into the open playa (and away from the camping area) via our "Psytance Is Not Art" boombox bus. WE HAD SOME CONFLICTS WITH NEIGHBORS OVER SOUND LAST YEAR AND TO MAKE IT BETTER ON EVERYONE, WE DECIDED TO TAKE THE NIGHT-TIME SOUND ART AWAY FROM CAMP [emphasis mine]. We will have daytime events too: 80's parties, and a Horror theatre show 3-4 times during the week. Outpost23 has been an on playa presence since 1996.


Clearly the ONLY reason Outpost 23 has decided to move their scene away from camp is due to Player sticking to his guns -- yes, even though it has brought some negative comments from some of you.

Outpost 23 told us, point blank, last year that every year they've had complaints from their neighbors. EVERY YEAR! (After which they went on to tell us to, basically, fuck off.) They went into the event KNOWING they would piss their neighbors off and just didn't care.

Doesn't it make sense to you to assume that they would have continued to terrorize their neighbors once again THIS YEAR??!!??!?!?!

Yet, them coming forward to move their music out onto the playa was shared by Retro as some sort of "See, Player, the folks from Outpost 23 ARE upstanding citizens and you're nothing but a whiner." Give me a fucking break. The ONLY reason they changed their YEARLY MODUS OPERANDI was because Player called attention to it and kept the pressure on. Period.

Sheesh. :roll:

I say bravo to Player for helping to bring about this Outpost 23 turn of events because it surely wouldn't have happened otherwise. He's got balls, unlike some of you pansy know-it-alls. Big balls. In fact, I think I'll go lick them right now. 8)
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Postby Badger » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:29 pm

He's got balls, unlike some of you pansy know-it-alls. Big balls. In fact, I think I'll go lick them right now.


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Postby retropsycho » Fri Aug 17, 2007 1:44 pm

Sassy wrote:
Clearly the ONLY reason Outpost 23 has decided to move their scene away from camp is due to Player sticking to his guns -- yes, even though it has brought some negative comments from some of you.

Yet, them coming forward to move their music out onto the playa was shared by Retro as some sort of "See, Player, the folks from Outpost 23 ARE upstanding citizens and you're nothing but a whiner." Give me a fucking break.


No. Here's why:

Player was complaining about Outpost23 in this thread as recently as August 11th. Outpost23 filed their questionnaire with their decision to move their late night sound to the deep playa back on May 29th.

Do the math.

Player claimed Outpost23 lied on their 2006 questionnaire --- a database Player has no access to. I have access, and they described their 2006 plans honestly and accurately.

Also, many who complained suggested (lied) about Outpost23's 2006 being in sleepy residential land.

It wasn't.

It was just behind the esplanade near the 9:00 plaza. For some reason some of the biggest complainers had the expectation that their camp on the esplanade would be quiet. Let me repeat that. For some reason some of the biggest complainers had the expectation that their camp on the esplanade would be quiet.

DO NOT CAMP ON THE ESPLANADE IF YOU PREFER QUIET.

Well, theme campers start arriving in three days. Flagging camp borders was done this morning. Just can't wait for this year's controversies to replace last year's!
I will not fear. Fear is the mind killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone . . . there will be nothing. Only I will remain.
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Postby Player » Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:36 pm

retropsycho wrote:Player was complaining about Outpost23 in this thread as recently as August 11th. Outpost23 filed their questionnaire with their decision to move their late night sound to the deep playa back on May 29th.

I don't understand what you are getting at here. As I was not privy to their decision, I could not have known. How could I have known! All I know is that they were once again placed amongst sleeping campers. But their decision of which you speak was quite obviously the result of my post-event 2006 campaign to call attention to the issue, not only with this camp, but with all camps within the city. So - I don't understand your point, if you were trying to make one.
retropsycho wrote:Player claimed Outpost23 lied on their 2006 questionnaire --- a database Player has no access to. I have access, and they described their 2006 plans honestly and accurately.

Wrong. Totally false. Frog told me that on their 2006 questionaire they claimed to possess 300 watts and according to Frog, "refused to be placed in the LSSA." (For those of you who do not know, Frog worked for BORG for many years - for no pay - and performed the huge task of placing theme camps.) Frog agreed that O23 was misplaced.
retropsycho wrote:Also, many who complained suggested (lied) about Outpost23's 2006 being in sleepy residential land.

It wasn't.

It was just behind the esplanade near the 9:00 plaza. For some reason some of the biggest complainers had the expectation that their camp on the esplanade would be quiet. Let me repeat that. For some reason some of the biggest complainers had the expectation that their camp on the esplanade would be quiet.

DO NOT CAMP ON THE ESPLANADE IF YOU PREFER QUIET.

Well, theme campers start arriving in three days. Flagging camp borders was done this morning. Just can't wait for this year's controversies to replace last year's!

So "many complained"? Why do you defend O23 in the face of many complaints? I'm beginning to wonder if these pople might be friends of yours . . .

Either way, your work, sir, is very much appreciated. I will respectfully disagree with you, however, in that radically loud camps that stoke up their sound blasting machines after 4am should never be placed on ANY street that is not Espalande or LSSA. PERIOD!. Your attitude on the board is rather demeaning - and I do understand that you feel the pressure as people must be complaining to you about a host of things - and never tell you when things are done well. But at least show some respect for people who are voicing their opinions, rather than take the stance that they are whiners and "complainers."

Just behind the Esplanande equals campers equals people who may be sleeping at 4 to 7 am. Why is this so difficult for you to embrace? Loud camps that shake the earth with their music belong ON the Esplanade, not behind it. So, while your advice is correct, I do believe that THE HUMAN BEINGS WHO TAKE THEIR PRECIOUS TIME, MONEY, AND RESCOURCES TO CREATE THE THEME CAMPS ALONG THE ESPLANADE DESERVE TO BE ABLE TO GO TO BED AND EXPECT - YES, EXPECT - TO FUCKING GET SOME GOD DAMN SLEEP!!!!

I hope that my last comment in the previous paragraph has not offended anybody, but apparently the point has still not been taken by some individuals, when I erroneously thought it had been.

Just to make the record clear, I have nothing against Outpost 23 as far as their camp itself is concerned. If they were on the Esplanade, I might have gone in and danced. If they were parked on another inside street and I biked by, I would have thought "those poor people" and felt sorry for their neighbors. As it was, it was me. And talking about last year's controversies, as my lovely wife has pointed out, is exactly how we can avoid THIS year's controversies.

Namaste,
~ Player

PS to Badger: I asked her, and sorry . . . no JPEGs.
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Postby Toolmaker » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:04 pm

retropsycho wrote:It was just behind the esplanade near the 9:00 plaza. For some reason some of the biggest complainers had the expectation that their camp on the esplanade would be quiet. Let me repeat that. For some reason some of the biggest complainers had the expectation that their camp on the esplanade would be quiet.

DO NOT CAMP ON THE ESPLANADE IF YOU PREFER QUIET.




Excellent advice in CAPS there. Thanks for coming by to hang out with us and for all your hard work. I'd also like to suggest to folks that if you want quiet either stay home or stay away from the Esplande, A, B or even C and D. Camping near the Esplande and expecting quiet is like living under an EL train and crying about the trains. Next time bring earplugs Player.
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:11 pm

Just got an email from a camp soliciting financial contributions and advertising a 10,000 watt sound system at 3:00 and G.

10,000 watts?

Is 3:00 and G in the LSSA?
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Re: Public question for BORG on Placement/Sound Policy

Postby The Hosh » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:12 pm

Player wrote:Now they are placed at 9:30 and Boreal for Bman 2007, which is basically the same place they were placed in 2006. Is that a good place for an extremely loud sound system that commences at 4 in the morning? Has not BORG been paying any attention at all at what this camp did to their neighbors in 2006?


I doubt you'll be able to hear them over the sound of my camp.

The loudest camp on the playa this year, Red Nose District, is at 9:30/Esplanade (filling almost the entire block), which is a mere block or so away Afterparty and our sound goes all night.

You want quiet? Maybe try camping further away from the Esplanade than "B". Streets do go out to "L" this year.
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Postby mo_corleone » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:27 pm

RETROWNED!

this is my new favorite thread.
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Postby Player » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:32 pm

Toolmaker wrote:Camping near the Esplande and expecting quiet is like living under an EL train and crying about the trains. Next time bring earplugs Player.

This was well covered in the original thread, which you obviously did not read. (see viewtopic.php?t=15111, which I provided with the original post in this thread), If you HAD read it (and you should have before you put in your 2 cents) you would have known that we have earplugs. We tried earplugs. But the camp, which was situated 30 feet from us, was so loud that we could feel the vibrations in our chests. Go the original thread for the facts. I'm sick of this earplug suggestion. I could have wrapped my head in foam and it would have not made any difference AT ALL.

Campers who park at the rear of their camps along the Esplanade deserve sleep too. I'm not "crying" - I'm trying to help. You don't know what we went through.
Teo del Fuego wrote:Just got an email from a camp soliciting financial contributions and advertising a 10,000 watt sound system at 3:00 and G.

10,000 watts?

Is 3:00 and G in the LSSA?

That is totally insane. I hope for the sake of people who are committed to camping in that area that this is not the case.

~ Player
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Fri Aug 17, 2007 3:43 pm

everyone talks about the LSSA, but seriously, the sound policy section of the BM site does not define its boundaries. I know Esplanade, that's a given, but G seems pretty deep, unless thast turns out to be on the very end of the crescent which I thought was 2:00

What gives? Is 3:00 and G in LSSA? It's a bit too late for our theme camp to pick up and move now they we've got our placement
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