Will the Org respond to the 2.0 controversy?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Bob » Mon Aug 06, 2007 9:36 pm

I didn't see you there.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
User avatar
Bob
 
Posts: 6762
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:00 am
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 1986
Camp Name: Royaneh

Postby Archantael » Mon Aug 06, 2007 10:49 pm

helitack wrote:...I AM one of the superstars...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalomania
Archantael
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:29 pm

Postby DVD Burner » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:11 pm

Everyone is a Superstar at BM. it's why everyone is there. but you have to give a hats off for those that made it happen almost if not 30 years ago.

Those that spun off that Cacophony.

Props have to go to the ones that created and supported the idea.

(for lack of better words at this moment.)

Not many know or understand the inner circle.

Many will even deny Flash his recog due.

some in the inner shy away from the fame.

I cant blame them. BM is really something. Especially where and how it came about.

It's a special story. This I know for a fact.


those that put this party on year after year, have much on their plate.

it's much to be appreciated.
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby Isotopia » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:13 pm

User avatar
Isotopia
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:26 am

Postby DVD Burner » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:28 pm

Isotopia wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchausen_Syndrome



Here are the facts.


Badger came along many years after I went to the first events.

badger has a hard time with that as do many in the 3rd rock from the playa, it's a never no mind and irrelevant.


why the Badger cant get past that.........I could really care less.


Fact is, I'm a blast as are many so called OH of BM., badgers have a tendency to be jealous/envious, and from time to time, superstars run into Badgers. just the way the world is.

people think it's not good to fuck with the badger. it's really not a good thing to fuck with the DVD. But that is another story that is not important.

Just go to BM, be not too creepy. ( sometimes it's fun being creepy if you meet your creepy match.) and have a great time this year.


I have traveling to do this year and most likely will make more money, have more respect, and have contributed and will always contribute more to the world in the utmost GREEN WAY than the Badger but that is not the point.


Have fun everyone at BM this year and I hope to meet everyone next year at Dr. Pyro's extravaganza.


Enjoy yall.


p.S. hey, maybe i'll meet some of you all at the decompression. Ya never know with me. the Action grl and Mozy can attest to that
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby Sensei » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:48 pm

DVD Burner wrote:Here are the facts.

:roll:

DVD Burner wrote: Badger came along many years after I went to the first events.

:lol:

DVD Burner wrote:badger has a hard time with that as do many in the 3rd rock from the playa, it's a never no mind and irrelevant. why the Badger cant get past that.........I could really care less.

:?: :lol:

DVD Burner wrote: Fact is, I'm a blast

:?: :?: :?: :roll: :lol:

DVD Burner wrote:... as are many so called OH of BM., badgers have a tendency to be jealous/envious, and from time to time, superstars run into Badgers. just the way the world is.

:?: :lol:

DVD Burner wrote: people think it's not good to fuck with the badger. it's really not a good thing to fuck with the DVD. But that is another story that is not important.

:oops: :roll:

DVD Burner wrote: Just go to BM, be not too creepy.

:?: :?: :?:

DVD Burner wrote: ( sometimes it's fun being creepy if you meet your creepy match.)

:idea:

DVD Burner wrote: I have traveling to do this year and most likely will make more money, have more respect, and have contributed and will always contribute more to the world in the utmost GREEN WAY than the Badger but that is not the point.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
User avatar
Sensei
 
Posts: 2879
Joined: Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:56 pm
Location: Seattle

Postby DVD Burner » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:52 pm

[quote="Sensei"][/quote]



:?


does it matter?
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby DVD Burner » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:52 pm

:P
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby DVD Burner » Mon Aug 06, 2007 11:53 pm

Oh hey, that was 3 words. :twisted: :roll:
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby DVD Burner » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:02 am

Bob wrote:I didn't see you there.



Dont know if that was directed at me but........



fact is, you joined BM after I did I believe. You may have seen me, maybe not.


No insult intended, especially if your post was not directed to me.


I don't make myself obvious or a spectacle at the event when I am there or even at decompression.

I'm nonchalant.




p.S. hey, i thought i was on Sensei's ignore list?



:lol:
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby Archantael » Tue Aug 07, 2007 7:46 am

DVD, Badger's Munchausen comment was a veiled shot at me. When one has their own issues it's easier to ignore them by attacking others than it is to get the help you so desperately need. A review of his vitriol filled posts on Tribe (some are even related to this specific topic) and on here will clearly illustrate my point.

Moving slightly back towards the topic, it does seem like priviledged insiders have more influence with the inner circle than they should.... Granted Badger's worked as a Ranger for many years and his opinions certainly carry some weight. But the comment about being able to talk to "The Hat" directly illustrates another problem that the event will sooner or later have to address and that is the overly San Francisco based bias that exists. Granted it can't be totally eliminated since the physical corporate office is there and people will run into senior staff at Bay Area events and be able to talk to them. But...this event is now international in scope both in participants and the regionals seem to be following close behind. For anyone who's not in the Bay Area, the question is becoming one of access. Why should the Bay Area participants enjoy such priviledged access? If the ORG is serious about boosting the importance of the regionals, what are they doing to improve communication and feedback with them? (Das Bus's absolutely bogus situation with asking for accountability from the Arizona regional is another case of where communication is lacking or doesn't exist.)

What my frazzled mind is trying to get across here with examples is what we have here is a failure to communicate. It's what caused the Business 2.0 article to blow up like it has, and it's going to keep coming up in all sorts of places until the ORG rethinks how it communicates with the citizens of BRC. Since Larry has posted in here and apparently is reading this, I'm taking this one shot to ask you to challenge your staff to step up and improve the ORG's feedback mechanisms and communications tools.

While I'm on my soapbox...
1: I miss having a town hall meeting where one can call in and listen or contribute with questions.
2: I wonder if the JRS e-mail newsletter is truly effective and why the same messages are not made available in an easier to use web based format.
3: In regards to the Business 2.0 article it was stated that Larry wrote something about this several months back...so he was surprised when this backlash developed. Hello? Go check out the main site and try and find LH's comments. I found this:
http://www.burningman.com/whatisburning ... y_bio.html
but it doesn't seem like it's been updated in ages. Hmmm....I wonder why so many missed the message.

Rather than go on and on, I'm saying that if BM is going to be a business, then they need to get their act together and truly be one. That means among many things an up to date website, accessible / searchable press releases and Larry Harvey comments that are easy to find vs the mess we have now. And as for the resources to do it...it might mean raising ticket prices a few more bucks to cover the expense, it might mean putting out a call for volunteers and it won't come easy. But the next time the permit comes up for renewal or Ron Skinner tries to exploit some situation to gain votes at BM's expense, the ORG will be more prepared than ever to deal with it. In short, the event and it's participants are calling out for change. Is the senior staff really listening?

I'll apologize for the long rant and I'll give up the soapbox now. (/soapbox)
Archantael
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:29 pm

Postby Isotopia » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:02 am

Did someone say something?

Something tells me I should be grateful for the 'plonk' feature.
User avatar
Isotopia
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:26 am

Postby MikeVDS » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:03 am

Rather than go on and on, I'm saying that if BM is going to be a business, then they need to get their act together and truly be one.


Every business has a choice on how they want to manage these things. For some, they plug on with certain aspects being crap, and others die because of it. If having some crap stuff works for them, that is how they are truly being one. If they acted like most businesses, they'd market the hell out of their product to get all they could out of it.

I understand why they do things the way they do. They have a very complex equation they are trying to balance. I'm sure we'd all like certain things a little different, but unless you can afford to do an event with no one else contributing, then it'll never be exactly how you want it.
User avatar
MikeVDS
 
Posts: 1844
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:10 pm
Location: Tiki Fuckos, Upland CA

Postby spectabillis » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:04 am

so i had some time to think about this, sleep on it to try and return with a fresh perspective.

i failed.



really, i'm embarassed. i just dont get how people's personal and petty differences can still spill over into everything despite raising it to attention. this inevitible slip into juvenile personal comments? i am sure not everyone appreciates it and thats the problem, its selfish to what others use the board for. it killed the discussions in policy and feedback, it twisted volunteers into resentment, it muddled discussions that people were very interested it, it-sours-everything.

you have the entire board, literally hundreds of topics to carry this into so why do you choose this one? is it attention? is it retribution?

things have been steadily improving in another cycle and the belief, the hope, was to finally turn a corner where certain things with people could be engaged in a more serious minded discussion. i know its fun to joke around and such.. hell man i do that so much people dont know when i'm serious or not. but this is.. different, and far worse.

so i dont know what to do, this was a test of sorts and it worked in some ways but failed on this very important one. what to do? much of that is still up to you, and i hope as more accomplished and able minded people are aboard something may still turn it around.

so please be mindful of others when you continue to engage in such activity, if there isnt a separation that allows that respect for others you're making everyone be treated like children because a few act like it.

i hate posting like this, but it has to be done.
spectabillis
 
Posts: 3530
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:07 am
Location: parallel cortex sensory stream interface

Postby DaBomb » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:17 am

Archantael wrote:3: In regards to the Business 2.0 article it was stated that Larry wrote something about this several months back...so he was surprised when this backlash developed. Hello? Go check out the main site and try and find LH's comments. I found this:
http://www.burningman.com/whatisburning ... y_bio.html


Hey Archantael, I believe you are referring to the original "GREEN MAN PAVILION - An Open Invitation to Artists, Innovators, and Visionaries".

There are two versions. There is one that posted months ago and the one that is posted now. They are vastly different.

If you are referring to something else, my bad.
Love & Rockets,
DaBomb
http://www.BURNcast.tv
DaBomb
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:36 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Postby Archantael » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:22 am

All one needs to do is go read through the Tribe discussion on this very subject and the comments will speak for themselves.

I will not back down from challenging discrimination, online abuse, and cyberbullying in any form, and Spectabillis you need to take a chill pill and quit trying to be the arbitrator of what's right and wrong with the board and trying to squelch someone else's right to speak freely.

I also find it telling that I questioned someone's "special access" to the hat and I get an over-reaction. IMHO it also shows the uphill battle that people will face to force this org into a more open stance...work that is worthwhile and that will continue regardless of what others say or do.
Archantael
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:29 pm

Postby Archantael » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:25 am

DaBomb, you are correct as I was referring to the original article.
Archantael
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:29 pm

Postby spectabillis » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:03 am

Archantael wrote:I will not back down from challenging discrimination, online abuse, and cyberbullying in any form, and Spectabillis you need to take a chill pill and quit trying to be the arbitrator of what's right and wrong with the board and trying to squelch someone else's right to speak freely.


no one is saying you cant discuss things or squelch free speech, its a suggestion to keep in mind where you do it because..

it also shows the uphill battle that people will face to force this org into a more open stance...


.. it is working against making that happen. not that i think you're in a state of mind to listen to it right now so i'm not going to say much more.
spectabillis
 
Posts: 3530
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:07 am
Location: parallel cortex sensory stream interface

Postby DaBomb » Tue Aug 07, 2007 9:09 am

Archantael wrote:DaBomb, you are correct as I was referring to the original article.


I have the original invitation, if any one cares to read it. PM me.
Love & Rockets,
DaBomb
http://www.BURNcast.tv
DaBomb
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:36 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Postby MikeVDS » Tue Aug 07, 2007 11:59 am

I have the original invitation, if any one cares to read it. PM me.


Is there a reason you don't just post it?
User avatar
MikeVDS
 
Posts: 1844
Joined: Tue Sep 26, 2006 2:10 pm
Location: Tiki Fuckos, Upland CA

Postby actiongrl » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:15 pm

But the comment about being able to talk to "The Hat" directly illustrates another problem that the event will sooner or later have to address and that is the overly San Francisco based bias that exists.


Oh my gosh you're right. I'm going to stop INVITING MY FRIENDS to my house immediately so that you don't feel left out.

C'mon, A. Yes, I happen to live in the same city as some people and they know me personally and that makes it easier for us to talk face to face than it does for you there in KC.

You might ask your regional, though, about what Burning Man has done to improve its communications this year -- adding new staff to the process and sending more of our staff to regional events to cross pollenate and make the connection has been a great start...but indeed no, I am not going to apologize for inviting Bob, Larry, and Badger to my engagement/housewarming party, and I don't think that those acquaintances represent kind of "endemic problem" as you phrase it here. Really.

It is a simple fact of reality that it will always be impossible for us as staffers to be individually connected to every single burner. I certainly hope that that doesn't mean you're implying that I am not allowed to be friends with any of them.
actiongrl
 
Posts: 635
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:22 pm

Postby DaBomb » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:24 pm

MikeVDS wrote:
I have the original invitation, if any one cares to read it. PM me.


Is there a reason you don't just post it?



No secret, but it would have been nice if this thread had stayed on topic instead of devolving into what it has become.

The personal attacks between people here sadden me. Some would complain that Tribe is but a highschool, but from what I've seen these past 24 hours, I see no difference between the two.

The question was raised "Will the Org respond to the 2.0 controversy?" That's the topic at hand.

Then Larry came on and posted a speech. So, yes the Org did respond. However, there was no heartfelt dialogue or meaningful discourse from Mr. Hat after that. We just got a wall of prosaic text.

On a positive note, the move worked. Most folks in the Community (drink!) are satisfied. The situation for the most part was diffused.

But IMHO, nothing has really changed and that to me is a bummer. Larry didn't answer any of my questions, but instead ActionGrl responded on his behalf. I feel that the opportunity for continued dialogue for the purpose of fostering communication and understanding between the BMorg and the Community is lost on this thread thanks to several petty grudges.

Maybe this round is over, but I'm hoping that this may portend a future of open and direct two-way communication between the Community (drink!) and the BMorg. That ain't gonna happen at a private engagment/housewarming party nor should it.
Love & Rockets,
DaBomb
http://www.BURNcast.tv
DaBomb
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:36 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Postby actiongrl » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:40 pm

I'd love to see a place where we could dialogue about these things without personal attacks. Maybe that's why I prefer my offline conversations via email, etc. with individual participants like Da Bomb than I do these threads online...it just can't stay focused for very long without snarkitude popping up.

I don't know how many Executive Directors participate in extended small talk and debate on their message boards - some not at all I am sure...I'd love to see more of Larry here too, but will confess, some of us have more of a stomach for such a place than others...what with all the personal BS, and drifts and random hollers about "donkey fucking" and what not, it's a time consuming and not always pleasant thing to participate and I do wish discussion could be more targeted and focused so it could develop as a better, more efficient, and more enjoyable place to communicate both ways in our community. (sips)

Please don't go thinking it's a lack of desire to engage in civil dialogue with the community, because I happen to believe that Larry and I both enjoy that a great deal and I know that I would like more of it too.
actiongrl
 
Posts: 635
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:22 pm

Postby Dork » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:42 pm

DaBomb wrote:On a positive note, the move worked. Most folks in the Community (drink!) are satisfied. The situation for the most part was diffused.

I'm not satisfied, I'm just tired of repeating myself and being dismissed. I'm going to attend the event, protest, and wait a couple months before I decide whether I want to come back next year.
User avatar
Dork
 
Posts: 2066
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:01 pm
Location: Las Vegas

Postby MozyBonz » Tue Aug 07, 2007 12:47 pm

OK OK every one take a breath..deeeep….now exhale ……now drink some water.
Now let it go. Let go…..Breathe…Breathe.

You are all invited to my party...8/11/07. Well if you would really come you would be. Just no BM politics allowed just fun or else.... we will hold you down a tickle you.

Smile life is not that bad. Really

Seriously love you all and would love to have you all come. PM me if you are interested.
MozyBonz
 
Posts: 3429
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:54 pm

Postby Bob » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:10 pm

Only thing I asked Larry the other night was whether he thinks there's going to be enough fuel under the Man for a good burn. Practical matters are about all I could realistically care about wrt to the Pavilion, the burn, or anything else out there. The answer was yes.

But I do personally care that the org spreads itself a bit thickly in the philosophical department. Same with the Church Ladies criticizing them. Atheist that I am, I'd rather ya'll have no superimposed philosophy designed on the rest of us.

Per the recent snippy exchanges, DVD might be my idea of the ideal burner (V. 2.0), simply because he thinks it's all about him. It *should* be all about him.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
User avatar
Bob
 
Posts: 6762
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:00 am
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 1986
Camp Name: Royaneh

Postby DaBomb » Tue Aug 07, 2007 1:14 pm

Dork wrote:
DaBomb wrote:On a positive note, the move worked. Most folks in the Community (drink!) are satisfied. The situation for the most part was diffused.

I'm not satisfied, I'm just tired of repeating myself and being dismissed.


Dork...I agree with you on every count. The thing is, for most people -- not all -- the moved worked. And with the hundreds of hours and dollars I've spent going into this year, I want to protect my emotional and financial investment by focusing on the positive and call upon why I love going so much. But, yeah, a review and refocus seems appropriate afterwards. Burning Man grew up, and maybe it's time for me to do so as well.

And AG, in response to private e-mails, it's been my experience that nothing gets accomplished in terms of real change. However, I think PM for the most part foster feelings of good will.

For what it's worth, I'd much prefer to see an open dialogue with every one who cares to talk and who also participates. Then the Community (drink) can not only call upon changes and challenges to the Org, but also reflect and expand on our own highest standards for art, self-reliance, self-expression, decommodification, communal effort and civic responsibility. I feel only an positive open dialogue can facilitate this.
Love & Rockets,
DaBomb
http://www.BURNcast.tv
DaBomb
 
Posts: 153
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:36 pm
Location: Los Angeles

Postby Archantael » Tue Aug 07, 2007 3:27 pm

The following link was swiped from a post Bob made over on another board. Sorry Bob, but it's too good of an article not to share.

http://newenergytimes.com/SR/Planktos/BurningManGreentech.htm

As for having the senior staff over here, it's great to briefly have what we think is LH's attention without having to attend private parties in the Bay Area to get it. But will any real change come from it? Heck, as I reread that post I wonder if we're getting the real Larry or if it's a canned response? Who knows. (My original sock puppet comment might be more truthful than I thought.) I do know one thing, the church lady chorus of voices asking for change is only going to grow. This could be the year that BM sees the start of a real honest to dog revolution, something that's been promised before with Borg 2 and others but never delivered....and wouldn't it be ironic that it's the org's violation of it's 10 principles that lit the powder keg?
Archantael
 
Posts: 472
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 10:29 pm

Postby Isotopia » Tue Aug 07, 2007 6:05 pm

<snore>
User avatar
Isotopia
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:26 am

Postby K-mom » Tue Aug 07, 2007 8:11 pm

I don't know if that can be called "too good of an article ...." , mainly because I can't tell if it should be labelled a news article or an editorial/rant ... it seems to shift perspective somewhere around the first third
You call it malt liquor, I call it breakfast.
User avatar
K-mom
 
Posts: 441
Joined: Wed Sep 07, 2005 11:17 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Politics & Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest