Will the Org respond to the 2.0 controversy?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby BigCock » Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:45 pm

Ack. It misses the point. Whatever the upside of this pavillion experiment, it has introduced a commercial element. People will write off their burn expenses this year like never before. Imagine talking to someone who's paid to be there. And WHY an education purpose. Why an ethical position? Wasn't art enough?

It was heavy handed of the org to do this experiment.
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Postby Badger » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:23 pm

Dude, someone on Craig's List will buy that ticket from ya.
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Postby BigCock » Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:48 pm

by the same reasoning i either support the president or i'm with the terrorists
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Postby Bob » Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:02 pm

It's very well said for a response that employs the same internal-to-Burning-Man arguments as its Church Lady critics.

Thank you for your interest, and please enjoy your visit!
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Postby Sensei » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:48 am

BigCock wrote:Ack. It misses the point. Whatever the upside of this pavillion experiment, it has introduced a commercial element.

I think it's really stretching it to say the pavillion "introduced a commercial element". How much did you spend last year on transportation, camping supplies, food, water, tequila, etc.?

Larry wrote:The truth is that the Project, as a corporation, spends millions of dollars to create Black Rock City, and our participants spend many millions more in a capitalist marketplace in order to inhabit this city.


Big Cock wrote:Imagine talking to someone who's paid to be there.
Well, I've talked to cops out there, some firemen, Johnny-On-The-Spot guys, etc. Even though they're getting paid, in the vast majority of cases it seems they're out there because they want to be out there. What's your point? That they won't be really into to it?

Big Cock wrote:And WHY an education purpose. Why an ethical position? Wasn't art enough?
Art doesn't educate or take on ethical questions? C'mon!

Big Cock wrote:It was heavy handed of the org to do this experiment.
Heavy handed? Please. Nobody's forcing you to go to the pavillion (unlike say, the Eplaya Meet & Greet!). You'll make your own experience just like always. Speaking of which, I'll see ya's at the Meet and Greet, BC! BTW - I'm predicting '07 will be the most vibrant and interesting year since I started going in '00.
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Postby BigCock » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:08 am

Sensei wrote:Well, I've talked to cops out there, some firemen, Johnny-On-The-Spot guys, etc. Even though they're getting paid, in the vast majority of cases it seems they're out there because they want to be out there. What's your point? That they won't be really into to it?

I see little comparison between uniformed emergency personnel working at the event and marketing people hawking their wares and spinning the experience into product promotions. The org does not tell cops not to display logos, for example, but they absolutely must do so for the enviromarketeers. Keep in mind that the man is to be mounted atop this trade show. Much as I would love to ignore this thing, it appears that my beak is to be rubbed in it.

I'm having real trouble thinking of a single BM art installation that had a predominantly educational or ethical theme.

Larry's points seem to be that there has always been a heavy commercial component, that the org isn't deliberately selling the event out, and if some greater good is served, the means are justified. Ok, but still, there is a new commercial component this year, the org is at least 'gifting' out and to try to transform or redirect our burningman into a green leadership initiative at this point is an attempt at hijacking. Those are my points and I've gleaned they are shared by many.

Yep, looking forward to the M&G.
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Postby actiongrl » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:03 am

Just so it's clear, these "marketing people" (who as Larry has pointed out work for organizations who aren't interested in selling you or me anything anyway, if the companies even bring Joe from Marketing or in fact even have a Joe from Marketing in the first place...) will be forbidden from market-ing, since there is a clause forbidding such behavior that their companies are signing. Such folks won't even be in the Pavilion standing by their stuff anyway. I want to reassure the reader that if you have anyone behave to you this way, your rights and expectations are the same as if it happens anywhere else on the playa.

"Marketing" behavior is not why these folks are welcome this year and in those regards they are expected to comport themselves in the same manner as any other burner.



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Postby MikeVDS » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:12 am

"Marketing" behavior is not why these folks are welcome this year and in those regards they are expected to comport themselves in the same manner as any other burner.


I think the issue people are having is not that the people must act like burners. The issue is that the article was selling the idea to marketers that they could act like burners with the intention of selling more product. So it's not their behavior, it is the intent of the people who are being invited.
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Postby Bin Noddin » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:29 am

In the end, the pavilion project will host only two businesses that can be said to represent capital in a significant way. The first involves the installation of a very large (and beautiful) solar array that will power both the Man and the pavilion. After the conclusion of the event, we intend to install portions of it, at our expense, in the small Nevada towns of Gerlach and Lovelock. It will provide power to a public school and hospital, respectively.

The company that’s doing this brokers solar power deals, mostly for large institutions. They make their money from clean energy tax rebates that are offered by the government. Neither we, nor our participants, can be said to represent their target demographic. They are accustomed to much larger operations. What, then, is their motive? They were simply tickled by the notion that, over time, the tiny town of Gerlach could become the first municipality in America that employs solar power to produce more energy than it consumes. I’ve no problem if our partners in this project want to claim the bragging rights for eventually doing this. Last year, we distributed $91,000 in charitable contributions to local communities in Nevada. For us, this is simply a continuation of that practice.

The second large-scale pavilion project involves an array of wind turbines that will be installed along the Y3K light circle that surrounds the Man. In this case, we were able to go around the marketing departments of various companies and approach the scientists themselves. Scratch a scientist, I’ve often said, and you will find an artist. These folks felt that exhibiting their beautifully engineered handiwork would be ‘cool’. They’ve been motivated by a kind of passion – radical self-expression, if you will.

Those who were interested in "marketing" walked away when the restrictions on their conduct were made clear.
So it's not their behavior, it is the intent of the people who are being invited.

The "intent" of those who chose to remain in spite of the restrictions is clear. It was the "intent", or slant, of the Biz 2.0 article that has muddied this discussion.
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:28 am

BigCock wrote:marketing people hawking their wares and spinning the experience into product promotions


Burning Man 2007 has not yet occurred. It is possible that the feared hucksterism will NOT occur. I personally don't like the idea of a theme that "educates," I think art for art's sake is education enough, but I no longer see anyhting intrinsically evil in The Pavillion--particularly after Larry's post here.

The devil will be in the details of how the Pavillion is implemented. Let's see how it goes.
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Postby Bob » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:56 am

Crikey, it's Larry's installation, leave him the fuck alone! The only retarded thing about it is NOT sharing commercial information about technology. Either way, it entirely fits with the current do-good ethos of Burning Man. And of course, having a do-good ethos doesn't mean you're actually required to do good, so the rest of you evil-doers should be off the hook as well.

It's all good! All one!
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Postby Barbie » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:08 am

Hey- Does this mean the monkeys monkeys monkeys and DONKEY FUCKING THEME is Out????? :cry: WELL okay then I'LL SEE YOU ALL IN THE DUST
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Postby DaBomb » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:00 pm

Teo del Fuego wrote:It is possible that the feared hucksterism will NOT occur. I personally don't like the idea of a theme that "educates," I think art for art's sake is education enough, but I no longer see anyhting intrinsically evil in The Pavillion--particularly after Larry's post here.


IMHO, the feared hucksterism will absolutely not occur. Blatant sales tactics would pro'ly offend any attendee. Reverend Billy notwithstanding...that is called "performance art". I believe the Green Pavilion is not evil.

However I contend that guerilla/stealth marketing has been going on since the first day I arrived at the playa and furthermore, I have witnessed it on numerous occasions since then. Please note I am not accusing our invited guests of this practice. I'm just...I'm just saying...that it has been done.

As for a "theme that educates", that was the one single sentence that jumped out to me from the Hatted One's post. To me, this the biggest indicator in my years on the playa that the event has changed beyond it's Cacophony roots. In the past, changes were implemented to accommodate growth...(yeah, you can cite a bunch of instances when these had been previously chipped away at). But now, this educational theme overrides the TAZ. It makes me wonder why 40,000 of the most smartest, socially networked and dare I say educated people on the planet are going to summer school.

Saving the earth is necessary and if the do-good ethos spreads the love for the planet then and creates a sense of social responsibilty beyond the playa, then yeah: Dr. Bronner's Magic All One Soap!

But to me, at the core of BM is "Ars Gratia Artis". This is why I come. I am already seeing some very cool art that is keeping with the spirit of the educational purpose of the Green Man theme in that there's a lot of art being created out of recycled materials. But I am also seeing some really cool art that harkens to William Anderson's "Green Man: The Archetype of our Oneness with the Earth" and it's pretty amazing, too. Oh, and let's not forget the monkeys and the donkeys. One soap! One love! Woot! Woot! Ook Ook! Eee aaaw!
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Postby joel the ornery » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:55 pm

it's a floor wax and whipped cream topping, all in one!
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Postby sputnik » Tue Jul 31, 2007 12:58 pm

joel the ornery wrote:it's a floor wax and whipped cream topping, all in one!


with a special N2O delivery system
It's going to be alright.
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Postby chrispburn » Tue Jul 31, 2007 2:34 pm

just got this link from a friend. it's an interesting article about Burners without Borders, and it touches on the "pavillion" trade show aspect.

just thought this would be interesting to read for those interested in the controversy. (I'm not advocating one way or another)


http://commongroundmag.com/2007/08/burners0708.html
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Postby MozyBonz » Tue Jul 31, 2007 4:49 pm

Thanks Larry for speaking up.

Here are some of my own perceptions


Unlike commercial branding, real identity can only issue from within. Its agency is deeply personal participation in a culture, not psychological manipulation.



Commercial branding or real identity is used in the same way. (Example on request)

Brand equity is the value built-up in a brand. It is measured based on how much a customer is aware of the brand. The value of a company's brand equity can be calculated by comparing the expected future revenue from the branded product with the expected future revenue from an equivalent non-branded product. This calculation is at best an approximation. This value can comprise both tangible, functional attributes (e.g. TWICE the playa dust cleaning power or HALF the bacon fat) and intangible, emotional attributes (e.g. The brand for burners with style and good taste).

Real identity is a different way to say branding
Because the word branding
Has started to get a bad continuation to it.
Corporations like to use the words product identity

I’m ok with that just call it what it is.

Please don’t play the…. it depends what the meaning of “isâ€
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Larry,

Postby cabiria » Tue Jul 31, 2007 6:33 pm

Thank you ~so much~ for responding.
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Postby Zulegoona » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:23 pm

What do people think of you? Do they see you as an intelligent, a well liked person with an extensive personal network of friends? Do they see you as passionate, creative, a little eccentric but generally a good hearted person. If they really think of you that way that is your “Brandâ€
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Postby MozyBonz » Tue Jul 31, 2007 7:56 pm

[quote="Zulegoona"]What do people think of you? Do they see you as an intelligent, a well liked person with an extensive personal network of friends? Do they see you as passionate, creative, a little eccentric but generally a good hearted person. If they really think of you that way that is your “Brandâ€
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Postby Bob » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:41 pm

I can see why Black Rock City LLC might want to look like they're do-gooders, but are you comfortable with them making you look like you're a particular kind of do-gooder? I don't want them speaking for me, other than to the BLM & Washoe County about the event permitting. They can barely clean up after Burning Man, for fuck's sake.
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Postby karine » Tue Jul 31, 2007 9:47 pm

Hi Cab! Long time no see!

(((and Zulegoona, I will meet you tomorrow for a one-on-one debate, yes?!)))
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Postby BigCock » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:01 pm

That's right: take my money, get the permit and the JOTS, deal with the authorities, be sure to have a good time yourselves and get outta the way for a week.
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Postby Archantael » Tue Jul 31, 2007 10:11 pm

We are working with Google to create a three-dimensional model of Black Rock City, as it actually exists from year to year. Participants will be invited to map themselves, their artworks and their camps into this digital environment, just as they create things on the playa. What is the point? This is what I asked when I was first approached with this idea. Is this some sort of hermetic game environment, a passive and masturbatory entertainment, and a substitute for immediate experience? Far from it. People who enter into this digital realm we are able to travel -- eventually, it’s hoped -- down every street of Black Rock City. They’ll also be enabled to make contact with every participant who chooses to become a settler in this on-screen
In other words, one needn’t just ogle on Google. This is not intended to be a spectator environment. It will be possible to see behind the scenes, to knock on the door (or scratch at the tent flap) of anyone who has elected to participate. It’s never possible to experience all of Black Rock City. It really isn’t feasible to see even 5% of
Metropolis.

Is this some sort of hermetic game environment, a passive and masturbatory entertainment, and a substitute for immediate experience? Far from it.


Crazy tangent time....you were warned.

To answer the last question in the quote, maybe it is. Maybe this is a precursor to the creation of a Second Life competitor. Instead of exploring Linden Lab's world we can create something with a partial reality base and then extend it from there....the possibilities are endless.

Compare what's proposed with what Second Life is about: http://secondlife.com/whatis/

Just think...you wouldn't have to sell out the real community, you could make your money off an online virtual BRC where you can do everything that you can't do on playa. You could even experiment with implementing new rules changes with the citizens, say banning glass containers and get feedback on it...hmmm...welcome to Larry's personal electronic sandbox playa, powered by Google.

Hmmm....interesting, isn't it?
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Postby DaBomb » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:08 pm

Compare what's proposed with what Second Life is about: http://secondlife.com/whatis/


No, you didn't!

Did you just compare BRC to SL? And you guys give me crap for making an analogy to Mac?


Image


Oh, and here's a nice little post from the SL blog: "Celebrate the spirit of Second Life at Burning Life!"

Source: http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/09/16/burning-life-the-man-has-been-burned/

Yup. Your world. Your imagination.
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Larry, Democracy, Media & Einstein

Postby Chicken John » Tue Jul 31, 2007 11:55 pm

Ya know, I was talking just the other day to someone who said to me that they thought that this Business 2.0 magazine thing was an astute synopsis of what's wrong with journalism. I concur. I think that journalism is mostly responsible for the stories that you end up reading. Not the story that the person interviewed was wanting to give. A writer who takes a story that the subject of interview doesn't want to give is kinda how the game works. It makes a fool out of all of us 'content providers'. That Larry has to come here and explain the media is all crap is kinda sad. That you can't just trust that he has your best interests in mind, and that the magazine is just trying to sell shoes and other ads. You see, the magazine isn't an art form. Sure, some writing is art. But not the kinda of writing you're likely to see in that mag. Or most mags. The writer of the story is gonna navagate the story that he or she wants to tell. And they don't give you the angle of the story, or the "pitch", when they interview you. Do you think they said to Larry and Marion that they were gonna name the story what they named it and put a photo of the man in a suit? Liekly not. So the interviewee sculpts the story that they think they are being interviewed for. Then can you imagine the look on their face when they read the quotes that came out of their mouths re-purposed for other questions. Totally legit. Fuckers. But what comes around goes around. Misdirection using the English language is no stranger to Larry. I did a little experiment. I asked 25 people that don't really speak Burning Man to read the 11 commandments of Larry (the 10 principals). I lied. I told them that there will 11. They had to guess what the one missing was. 9 of them said the missing commandment was Democracy. Many, many people who contribute their time and energy to BM think it's a non-profit. And they don't even really know what a non-profit is. Most people don't. That's OK. But most people who contribute to BM think that it's a leaderless collective. And that's OK. Most people who contribute their time and energy to BM would likely be the kind of people who would embrace a Democratic BM.... kinda run like REI or something. But that's not going to happen. The board of persons who runs BM are very resistant to new ideas like Democracy. But they don't go out of their way to imply that it isn't a leaderless collective. It's an easy misdirection. So I have no sympathy that they get bit by the hair of the dog that drank them. But I'm just a drunk guy taking pot shots at Larry when he's on the defensive because it's easy. I don't think they are selling out at all. They have nothing that any corperation wants. I think they are deluded when they are sending out all the cease and desist letter and amplifying their importance. No one wants to trade on their mark in a real way. The design of this event which pre dates Larry, Marion and all others was rock solid. There simply is nothing to sell out for any real amount of money. And the the pavillion is a great idea, and regulated in the only way that makes sense. It's intellectual, it's topical, it's current and it's fun. I can't see one thing wrong. All corperations are just groups of people. And as far as BM being a brand and the people who go being customers that's just words. They have synanims that are more palatable. Just swap 'em in your mind and the bad taste will go away. But don't think that Larry's a saint, he's just not guilty of selling out. Because he doesn't have anything to sell to the people who have the money. But I don't think he would even if he did. I don't believe he can be bought. But unfortunatly he can't be reasoned with either. He only enacts things that are his idea, no matter how powerful. The time for BM to embrace democracy is now, before more of the regionals wander away bored. Before more of the energy is displaced. Before the event eludes us and the center can not hold. The time to experiment with democracy is now, while he's still here in all his facultys to shepard it. He smokes 2 packs of ciggerettes a day, drinks like a fish and eats microwave burritos. And I wish he wouldn't. But he does. I hope that the LLC of BM and the senior staff see that the experiment of Democracy is the only way to keep everyone on board, interested and inspired. The whole top down thinking has gotten really old. So have we. We, as a community are older, wiser, richer and open. Wide open.

So yea. I admit I didn't read the article. I don't need to. Don't want to. I don't read that stuff. It's bad for you. It hurts your inspiration. I like to spout possibility and positivity.

Einstein said "There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come."

If BM embraced some Democracy, maybe there wouldn't be an angry mob bearing torches now? Who knows.

Thanks for reading. Please rip me to little shreds now your gang of angry wolves... and vote for me for mayor in Novemeber or I'll have a bunch of time on my hands and hang around Eplaya and annoy everyone.

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Postby Bob » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:22 am

Chicken, when you're mayor, will SF have a recycle camp?
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Postby Chicken John » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:25 am

Silly. There is no recylcing. It all goes in the landfill. And I don't have a chance to be mayor. I only have the opportunity to control some media to push my agenda. Which is Art and Innovation, of course.
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Postby StevenGoodman » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:40 am

Bob wrote:I can see why Black Rock City LLC might want to look like they're do-gooders, but are you comfortable with them making you look like you're a particular kind of do-gooder? I don't want them speaking for me, other than to the BLM & Washoe County about the event permitting. They can barely clean up after Burning Man, for fuck's sake.


And Pershing County?
And the State of Nevada?
And a few dozen Legislators and Senators?

I am glad they can keep it going. Eventually Burning Man will die, and I will be sad. They can make the "pseudo me" look like any kind of do-gooder they want, it isn't the real me.

However, they are not speaking for me; I did not give them a proxy for my stock!

And, by the way, they (Burning Man LLC) cleans up after Burning Man BETTER than ANY other event held on BLL land.
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Postby StevenGoodman » Wed Aug 01, 2007 1:52 am

Chicken, Chicken, Chicken!

You write interesting stuff. You have for many years.

But please add a few paragraph breaks? You need an editor! It is just very hard to read. Especially for us 50+ year old geeks.

You have many interesting points, but you also generalize too much! BM has many things they could sell out, just not on the scale of Google. Etc.

This year at BM come by the BOOBY BAR, and we can fumble over a few drinks, and there will be some killer discussions!
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