Carding @ Burning Man for a New Bar in 2007

Carding @ Burning Man for a New Bar in 2007

Postby phoenix13 » Mon Nov 06, 2006 3:57 pm

We are bringing a club to burning man in 2007. I really don't want to card. I want to post signs up for no underage drinking and pray. I don't want our atmosphere to seem un-friendly.... however... I want to comply with the law. I feel torn. My fellow camp mates are wondering what peoples experience with carding has been? Carding others, being carded, law enforcement? I don't bring my ID around as I am worried about losing it... do many of you have ID that you bring with you? How many bars at b-man are carding? We don't want to be arrested and fined! It would be a BIG help to me to find out any info I can... thanks!
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Carding @ Burning Man for a New Bar in 2007

Postby phoenix13 » Mon Nov 06, 2006 4:02 pm

We are bringing a club to burning man in 2007. I really don't want to card. I want to post signs up for no underage drinking and pray. I don't want our atmosphere to seem un-friendly.... however... I want to comply with the law. I feel torn. My fellow camp mates are wondering what peoples experience with carding has been? Carding others, being carded, law enforcement? I don't bring my ID around as I am worried about losing it... do many of you have ID that you bring with you? How many bars at b-man are carding? We don't want to be arrested and fined! It would be a BIG help to me to find out any info I can... thanks!
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Postby Eric » Mon Nov 06, 2006 8:30 pm

I would say be prepared to card. If someone is obviously "of age" you probably don't have to worry, but if they look young or are in a costume such that you can't tell, I'd ask. And have a big sign up.

I'm well past legal age and definitely look like an "adult", but for the first time ever I even started carrying my ID this year, just in case. I didn't get carded, but I was prepared if I did.

Remember- there are undercover agents out there, they've been going longer than you, and their costumes are better. If you're serving alcohol respect the laws of the state and everything will be fine.
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Postby K-mom » Mon Nov 06, 2006 9:51 pm

I get especially nervous carrying my ID out there, dressed in odd clothing with questionable pockets, because I know that I have to cross a border to get home after the event. It'd be easier if all I'd have to do is get a replacement card when it's all said and done, but with customs the way they are right now it might actually cause a headache trying to get home.
Course, after saying all that, you stated the real truth in your original message: the law is the law and you better comply, or else!.... I'd say make it a happy medium - ID the people who's ages are questionable, or who are in costume, but maybe you can come up with a fun method for doing it, and offer a reward or little present to people that actually carry it on the. I find anything that helps to avoid the gruff, show-me-your-ID-or-I'll-kick-your-ass bouncer mentality of the real club world makes it a definite BRC moment.
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Postby dadinpain » Mon Nov 06, 2006 11:03 pm

I say Card away. Be safe. The lil ones can sneek a beer somewhere else. but at your camp I would say be nice.....but card. You can either ask people nicely, or just not serve them. Plane and simple. I plan on making a few color photo ID copies and get one of the plastic fishing license holders and put it in there. Get a lanyard and wear it around my neck. And in case I die.....well you wont have a problem finding out who I am. cuz Ill have my ID around my neck. Nuff said now.....go drink.

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Postby thisisthatwhichis » Tue Nov 07, 2006 8:30 am

We ran a bar last year. At the very least, you must ask the patron if they are over 21 and of legal drinking age in the State of Nevada. They must answer "YES", not an answer that could be interpreted another way. Once they do that, they are now responsible and the bartender is not.
Also a sign should be posted.
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Postby Toolmaker » Tue Nov 07, 2006 9:44 am

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/law1.cfm

Nevada Statutes are on the left side of the page. From what I understand the LEOs that are at the event are not afraid to issue stiff citations. If I were going to make alcohol available to the public I would card and explain to everyone that you are just covering your ass. I am not a lawyer so I can't halp ya about the specifics on whether or not you have to card someone that looks 30+. My understanding was that no matter how old someone looks they still have to be carded.
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Postby thisisthatwhichis » Tue Nov 07, 2006 1:37 pm

I'm not a lawyer either, but here are some pertinent excepts:

NRS 202.040 False representation by minor to obtain intoxicating liquor. Every minor who shall falsely represent himself to be 21 years of age in order to obtain any intoxicating liquor shall be guilty of a misdemeanor.

[Part 1911 C&P § 241; A 1925, 212; NCL § 10188]

NRS 202.055 Sale or furnishing of alcoholic beverage to minor; aiding minor to purchase or procure alcoholic beverage; policy to prevent minor from obtaining alcoholic beverage through use of Internet.

1. Every person who knowingly:

(a) Sells, gives or otherwise furnishes an alcoholic beverage to any person under 21 years of age;

(b) Leaves or deposits any alcoholic beverage in any place with the intent that it will be procured by any person under 21 years of age; or

(c) Furnishes, gives, or causes to be given any money or thing of value to any person under 21 years of age with the knowledge that the money or thing of value is to be used by the person under 21 years of age to purchase or procure any alcoholic beverage,

Ê is guilty of a misdemeanor.

2. Paragraph (a) of subsection 1 does not apply to a parent, guardian or physician of the person under 21 years of age.
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Postby Dr. Pyro » Tue Nov 07, 2006 2:18 pm

Those of us at Barbie Death Camp & WINE BISTRO have really never had a problem with underage drinking, as far as I can tell. I honestly cannot think of a single occasion where we even suspected minors were trying to drink our wine. Have we ever carded? No. Have we discussed it? Briefly. Have LEOs ever come by to see what or who we were serving? No. Would I knowingly serve a minor? Absolutely not. I think you are making a mountain out of the proverbial molehill. I have been doing this now for six years and honestly, it is no problem. Perhaps because we don't have music, are generally not open at night, and look like a bunch of Barbie perverted fuddy duddies, the youth of Black Rock City stay away. In droves. But then, if you have a fun camp, your mileage may differ.
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Postby thisisthatwhichis » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:04 pm

Thanks, DrPyro..... :lol:
Now that I made a point out of it, I realized how yuchy it sounds.
We had fun with the question, for those that looked questionable. Kind of like.......

"OK, now for the bonus round question!....< :) :) :) > are you 21 or over....etc, etc, imbelish and have fun with the question, etc, etc..."

A Yes, was gifted, and anything questionable was clarified to a yes, before serving.....

Again, we had fun with it, and didn't have any problems (but wanted to make sure no one had their week ruined, just in case)..............
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Postby Lifeisshort » Tue Nov 07, 2006 4:32 pm

does anyone know the exact dates for this years burn?
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Postby pinemom » Tue Nov 07, 2006 6:01 pm

aug 27th-sept3rd
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Postby griffin » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:06 am

At my bar, I've witnessed a lot of honesty. People, even the young ones, just don't lie at burning man. I try to keep plenty of non alcoholic bevies around for the younger crowd. Our bar isn't about getting drunk, it's about connecting with others, and making friends, and sharing stories, so we try to let everybody be a part of that. I try to make them feel special by mixing orange juice and 7Up, or some such concoction. It's still a mixed drink, but without alcohol.

I guess the tough part is that after a few days on the playa, even a teenager looks 45.
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Postby pbmaniac2000 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:14 am

Ok somebody please correct me if i'm wrong, but the law at bm is slightly different from a real bar. All someone needs to do is give consent that they are over 21 to drink. So if they lie to you and tell you that they are over 21 and they get busted you can't get in trouble. If you asked if they were of age and they said yes it becomes their problem and not yours.
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Postby Eric » Mon Nov 13, 2006 1:14 am

pbmaniac2000 wrote:Ok somebody please correct me if i'm wrong, but the law at bm is slightly different from a real bar.


Anyone serving alcohol at Burning Man (at a "bar" or just in their camp) still falls under all state & federal laws. There is no "slightly different" law.

If you're unsure, card. Or don't.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:18 am

Is the requirement for those who sell it only, or also for those who give it away?
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Postby StevenGoodman » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:56 am

The laws for giving it away and selling it are similiar, but not exactly the same. If you sell it you have more requirements and responsibilities; like only buying liquior for sale from distributors (and not at Costco).

The basics for giving away alcohol in Nevada:

1) It is illegal to knowingly give alcohol to anyone under 21.
2) It is illegal to represent yourself as 21 (if you are not) to obtain alcohol.
3) It is illegal for someone under 21 to loiter in an area where alcohol is being given or sold.

If you ask people before giving something away you cover yourself under case 1); since if they lie to you they are violating case 2). You checked and they answered.

The difference when selling alcohol is the expected level of expertise; if you have a nightclub you are expected to have competent bouncers, etc,. Also, many liquior establishments have additional local requirements, to get their licence, meet zoning restrictions, etc.
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Postby MrMullen » Mon Nov 13, 2006 5:56 pm

In all honesty, check ID's and be done with it.

You do several things for yourself by being safe and checking ID's:
1) You are not breaking the law and attracting trouble to yourself.
2) You are not risking a lawsuit if something goes wrong with a under 21 year old kid who does not have much experience with booze.

The simple fact remains, Burningman occurs within the borders of the United States of America and the State of Nevada, both of which have laws about persons under 21 drinking. Covering your ass is not always a bad thing.
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Postby pbmaniac2000 » Mon Nov 13, 2006 6:05 pm

Seriously don't waste your time checking id's. Ask if they are of age then be done with it. The entire time i was out on the playa i hit up a lot of bars, and never once got asked for my id. Got asked if i was of age once. People will get on here and say oh check for ids and save your ass. I don't think the police out there really care about underage drinking anyways. I have not seen the official report, but i don't think there were any alcohol related citations written. They don't have the time or the resources to check for that. You are going to get out there and just want to have fun with your bar. You are not going to want to waste your time checking ids. I think only about 2% of people carry their ids out there anyways. My only id was my playa id. It had my name, playa name, and where i was camped. So if i did get a little bit tipsy and something happened i would eventually make it back to camp. Don't waste your time with ids.
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Postby Lassen Forge » Wed Nov 15, 2006 4:12 am

Where the fuck to begin...

But first, a word from our sponsor, the boys and girls at BLM and PCSO!


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Do YOU want to experience the thriving and exciting nightife of beautiful downtown LOVELOCK? Want to meet a bunch of well dressed strangers, professional people, and people who drive in fancy taxpayer-provided semi-luxury vehicles?? Well. we have a deal for YOU!

And it's easy. You don't even have to pay now - they'll bill you!

What's the secret?

DON'T FUCKING CARD one of the UNDERVCOVER DECOY OFFICERS AT BRC sent to catch YOU serving to their under 21 butt!!

That's right! Not only is it fun and easy, but educational as well.

LEARN the consequences of breaking FEDERAL, STATE, and COUNTY LAWS while on federal land firsthand!

DISCOVER how easy it is to get EJECTED from burning man for breaking their rules.

Yes, YOU can now enjoy the prestige of riding in a police vehicle, wearing fancy, shiny nickle-plated HANDCUFFS, and missing the BURN (and maybe even your ride home!!).

EXPERIENCE the holding cell out by the trash fence. SAVOR writing the check to bail your butt out of jail! RE-LIVE te experience when you get to appear before a Judge, or maybe even a FEDERAL MAGISTRATE in this sleepy little burg.

AND... you can SHARE the FUN, too!! That's right... as a part of your illegal actions and subsequent experience , ALL YOUR CAMPMATES can be EJECTED PERMAENTLY from Black Rock City too! GUARANTEED POPULARITY by bieng the reason YOUR (ex-)FRIENDS CAN'T GO NEXT YEAR!!!

So HURRY! Don't card your customers. Deputies and Dispatchers are standing by NOW to take the call.


* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

OK. Where was I? Oh yeah. You, and those in your camp that has a bar and/or serves alcohol, are REQUIRED to know ALL the laws and regs affecting you, and COMPLY with them. This from the posting of necessary signage to maintaining the letter of (pay attention) FEDERAL, STATE, and LOCAL law in YOUR bar.

Play around, be lax on your responsibilities, and not only YOU, but your whole camp can be ejected, NEVER to return to BRC. All you have to do is listen to someone telling you to ignore common sense and your responsibilities as a bar operator.

This comes up every year. LE loves it as people listen to bad advice (like what pbmaniac2000 wrote above) and fund their departments. Gives them a reason to put MORE cops out there. What do you think they look for most out there? ALCOHOL AND DRUG VIOLATIONS. THATS why the LE presence is growing every year. (Duhhh...)

And about the decoys? They are out there. They will wait until you are busy as hell, get you to serve them, and BAM. We had (that I know of) 2 hit us last year, 3 the year before, because I was working behind the bar when they did. So if you think they don't exist... I'll sell you a bridge.

Your choice. Post the "no minors" signs, card everyone who wants a drink, remain vigilant... or worry that that person you didn't ask or card has his co-workers (in the pretty car with red and blue lights a few camps away) waiting to visit!

As for us... we card 'em all. No ID, no drinky. Sorry.


(I'm kinda starting to think, after reading this pbmaniac2000's coupla posts above, why is he (or she, or maybe it) trying so hard to set you up to break the law? I mean, what, is it a bored cop or local trying to get BRC shut down or what? Don't make much sense otherwise...)

(Edited to add the above comment...)
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Postby Toolmaker » Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:02 am

Know the law before you break it!

http://www.leg.state.nv.us/law1.cfm
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/

Thats covers the fed and nevada state. BBSue said it best in my opinion.
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Postby pbmaniac2000 » Wed Nov 15, 2006 12:22 pm

(I'm kinda starting to think, after reading this pbmaniac2000's coupla posts above, why is he (or she, or maybe it) trying so hard to set you up to break the law? I mean, what, is it a bored cop or local trying to get BRC shut down or what? Don't make much sense otherwise...)


I'm not getting anyone to break the law. Read the rule book. You are required to ask if a person is of age, then they are NO LONGER YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

Who here has ever been carded on the playa?

No body is running a BAR!!! In a bar you walk in pay for the alcohol. Its burning man no one is running a bar. So you fall under different rules.

The basics for giving away alcohol in Nevada:

1) It is illegal to knowingly give alcohol to anyone under 21.
2) It is illegal to represent yourself as 21 (if you are not) to obtain alcohol.
3) It is illegal for someone under 21 to loiter in an area where alcohol is being given or sold.

If you want to check each and every persons id, knock yourself out. I'm just saying that you will have a very lonely bar.

Also while we are on the subject answer this bay bridge sue. When was the last time someone received a ticket for giving alcohol to minors on the playa? Since you seem to be the almighty one.
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Postby Toolmaker » Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:09 pm

pbmaniac2000 wrote:I'm not getting anyone to break the law. Read the rule book. You are required to ask if a person is of age, then they are NO LONGER YOUR RESPONSIBILITY.

The basics for giving away alcohol in Nevada:

1) It is illegal to knowingly give alcohol to anyone under 21.
2) It is illegal to represent yourself as 21 (if you are not) to obtain alcohol.
3) It is illegal for someone under 21 to loiter in an area where alcohol is being given or sold.



Care to back that up with specifics? If you look above your post you will see the links to the Nevada Code and the Fed Code. How about you or ANYONE look it up and post the actual statute. Keep in mind that the event is held on FEDERAL land.

I was always under the impression that anyone serving alcohol in a public venue was REQUIRED to card by FEDERAL law. I am not a lawyer so I don't know. Since I dont plan on serving booze I didnt bother looking it up myself.
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Postby helitack » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:00 pm

NRS 202.020 Purchase, consumption or possession of alcoholic beverage by minor.
1. Any person under 21 years of age who purchases any alcoholic beverage or any such person who consumes any alcoholic beverage in any saloon, resort or premises where spirituous, malt or fermented liquors or wines are sold is guilty of a misdemeanor.
2. Any person under 21 years of age who, for any reason, possesses any alcoholic beverage in public is guilty of a misdemeanor.
3. This section does not preclude a local governmental entity from enacting by ordinance an additional or broader restriction.
4. For the purposes of this section, possession “in publicâ€
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Postby mdmf007 » Wed Nov 15, 2006 8:19 pm

I dont think checking Id's is realistic, i have never had my id on the playa other than my esd id ( and thats useless for age verification as well)

We play it by ear, if someone is a jackass and looks young, challenge them. If they cant produce - bounce em. Id go case by case.

just my 2 cents.

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Postby Lassen Forge » Thu Nov 16, 2006 5:26 am

mdmf007 wrote:I dont think checking Id's is realistic, i have never had my id on the playa other than my esd id ( and thats useless for age verification as well)


G'Morning...

As staph (and as one ESD peep to another) you gotta be doubly cautious. You can get ejected (historical precdent for this) for failing to maintain community standards. How easy is that to do? Break local, fed, or state law. Get cited or draw the attention of LE. Represent BM or the llc in less than a favorable light.

How serious is this? I saw one of ours fall last year (in his own camp, I might add) which was a stark and vivid reminder just how non-humorous the llc can be (with good reason) re those representing them in a bad way.

Side A of this - Seriously, how hard is it to ask for an ID? Try it in the privacy of your own home - look into a mirror, say "Can I see your ID?" Takes all of about 2 seconds. With the consequences involved it seems like a whole 2 seconds well spent If you're an adult and legal and mature enough to drink (OK, to drink in our Kantina, anyway) then what's the big deal?

Side B of this - is it worth risking being cited by PCSO or BLM or whoever if the result is being 86'd off playa and off staph? That's a personal choice, but it seems kinda... I dunno... silly to throw it all away knowing the consequences.

You also made me think (not easy at 4 AM!!) - You're ESD (or other staph). Even tho you got a lam, you still need your ticket stub on you. And... if you drive (a POV, a cart, apparatus, whatever) you also need your DL on you. Damn, now I gota go look at the ops manual and stuff...

At 4:15 AM? It's too damn early!

Like I said (did I say it?), it's all about the risk you choose to take with your freedoms. Having been a licensed server, having had decoys try to get beer from us, being a camp mom, and being ESD as well, unless you look as old as me, expect to be carded. And if we say no because you don't have your ID (even if you're 31 or 41 or 71), don't blame us. You know the rules. Go get your ID and come on back. >wink<

bb
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Postby Toolmaker » Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:11 am

helitack wrote:NRS 202.055 Sale or furnishing of alcoholic beverage to minor; aiding minor to purchase or procure alcoholic beverage; policy to prevent minor from obtaining alcoholic beverage through use of Internet.
1. Every person who knowingly:
(a) Sells, gives or otherwise furnishes an alcoholic beverage to any person under 21 years of age;
(b) Leaves or deposits any alcoholic beverage in any place with the intent that it will be procured by any person under 21 years of age; or
(c) Furnishes, gives, or causes to be given any money or thing of value to any person under 21 years of age with the knowledge that the money or thing of value is to be used by the person under 21 years of age to purchase or procure any alcoholic beverage,
Ê is guilty of a misdemeanor.
2. Paragraph (a) of subsection 1 does not apply to a parent, guardian or physician of the person under 21 years of age.
3. Every person who sells, gives or otherwise furnishes alcoholic beverages through the use of the Internet shall adopt a policy to prevent a person under 21 years of age from obtaining an alcoholic beverage from the person through the use of the Internet. The policy must include, without limitation, a method for ensuring that the person who delivers the alcoholic beverages obtains the signature of a person who is over the age of 21 years when delivering the beverages and that the packaging or wrapping of the alcoholic beverages when they are shipped is clearly marked with words that describe the alcoholic beverages. A person who fails to adopt a policy pursuant to this subsection is guilty of a misdemeanor and shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500.
(Added to NRS by 1967, 482; A 1969, 22; 1987, 482; 2001, 2788)
NRS 202.060 Saloonkeeper allowing minor to remain in establishment. Any proprietor, keeper or manager of a saloon or resort where spirituous, malt or fermented liquors or wines are sold, who shall, knowingly, allow or permit any person under the age of 21 years to remain therein shall be punished by a fine of not more than $500. Nothing in this section shall apply to:
1. Establishments wherein spirituous, malt or fermented liquors or wines are served only in conjunction with regular meals and where dining tables or booths are provided separate from the bar; or
2. Any grocery store or drugstore where spirituous, malt or fermented liquors or wines are not sold by the drink for consumption on the premises.
[1:152:1911; A 1955, 85]—(NRS A 1967, 483)

Specific enough?



Thanks for hopping on the bandwagon to flame pb for his bad legal advice.
Your help is greatly appreciated.

/me gives helitacky a great big hug
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Postby Mozy bonz » Thu Nov 16, 2006 3:42 pm

Well where to start.

Heli has shown you the law this apples to all bars at BM.
BBSue has also laid it out very clearly on what to expect.

Don’t fuck around with the law on this real bars keep with in the law all the time.

There are some heath department codes you also need to follow. Someone have the link?
As for LEO we had them come to the bar and though the camp very few people knew about in camp and at the Bar.
This interaction was good due to we where a real bar and acted like one in the full sense of the word.

We did not card most people but we had a sign that said if you look 25 be prepared to show ID. Every one was asked 2 questions are you at least 21 and is it legal for you to drink in the state of Nevada. Only one answer will get you the drink. You where asked the question even if you where 65. Everyone had to answer. Even LEO. The sign keeps under 21 away from the bar they walk up read the sign and move on never coming up to the bar. If you are making a good faith effort to keep with in the law LEO will recognize it. If you think some one is under 21 and you don’t ask for the ID [color=red]“1. Every person who knowinglyâ€
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Postby Barbie » Thu Nov 16, 2006 6:50 pm

WOW you learn something everyday!!!! Thanks for the enlightment--I'm behind the bar alot at Blackies (9:15 and the second to the last ring--- come by have a drink) And I had no Idea that I was supposed to be asking for ID or that we should have a sign up for no minors...the police cruise our area alot--I always thought it was drugs they were looking for... didn't know they were also looking for young hotties drinking. Thanks for the Info I'll be alot more careful next year and we will get our sign. Pleaseeeeeee come by and have a drink if your over 21!!!!
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Postby jc » Thu Nov 16, 2006 9:09 pm

I obviously look and am over 40. But would you card me to make me feel good?
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