May I assume generators are right out next year?

May I assume generators are right out next year?

Postby axolotl » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:05 pm

Well?

It just seems to me like if the theme of the event is GREEN, you can't make something that's powered by a gas engine.
At least, I couldn't and not feel like a total dick.

So in 2007 it's going to be all about the homemade wind turbines, solar battery chargers, and battery-cages of manacled naked slaves running on treadmills. Right?

Realisticially, I wouldn't expect to see even the slightest reduction in the number of generators present.
I could be wrong...

Is anyone drastically rethinking their projects based on power supply issues after finding out the theme...?
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:24 pm

Yep. No electricity or modern techmology at all.

On the other hand, nudity and open fires will be forbidden.
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Re: May I assume generators are right out next year?

Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Oct 24, 2006 1:25 pm

axolotl wrote:So in 2007 it's going to be all about the homemade wind turbines, solar battery chargers, and battery-cages of manacled naked slaves running on treadmills. Right?

Sorry, missed the part where you volunteered.
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Postby blyslv » Tue Oct 24, 2006 2:08 pm

I've contacted the Assistant Under-Deputy Maximum Decision Maker (Second Level Adjunct)(acting) for Burningman Theme Compliance. He said that he has referred the question to the Consultative Committee for the Assurance of Art Purity and Eradication of Non-Theme Compliant Art. This lead to a discussion with the Press Secretary and Enforcer of Image Perception for the CC. Buffy informed me that the CC views with displeasure non-theme compliant art, but that there is a sizable minority (mostly affiliated with various extractive industries) who have raised the issue that Man is Not Divorced From Nature. Indeed Man is part of nature and as one of the small subset of tool using primates, any tool they use may be considered part of nature. That is why, when I submitted my Art Proposal and Request For Funding (pursuant to BM Reg. 03-774(C)(ii)(3)(2004 Revision)) for a large simulation of a nuclear blast (approximatley 400 tons of TNT) there was heated debate and a request for more information.

Basically it boils down to Who Decides What Is Green?
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Postby axolotl » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:06 pm

I personally think that the art themes in general are lame and trite and exist to be broken, and that the idea of trying to make Burning Man environmentally responsible is both unnecessary and a lost cause from the beginning.

So- that makes this a bit of a troll thread.
The difference, I hope, from something like the stopburningman.org trolls is that I wasn't trolling for flames but for intelligent discussion.

Who decides? You decide. If you think you're REALLY being 'green' you're probably just fooling yourself, as many people out in the real world do.
If you don't even give the idea a nod, that's a decision too.
If you do draw the line somewhere, where and why?

I draw the line between the people who leave trash on the ground for other people to pick up, and the people who pick up other people's trash. I don't think it is the same people doing both, and I don't think they are the same kind of people, either.

BTW, if I came across someone was powering their installation with caged slaves running on treadmills, I'd volunteer at least for a while until my legs got tired- because I like the idea.

A good art project on sustainability and alternative energy might be one that points out the awkward, uncomfortable, inefficient and absurd realities of trying to carry on our lifestyles without burning petroleum or plugging in to that magical ethereal 110VAC placenta.

I was thinking of something like a generic American living room with TV and stereo and computer and floor lamps and fans and a massage recliner and a minifridge, transported out there in the middle of the desert- and it plugs into a slave galley of 20 people straining away on rowing machines.

That's basically our situation anyway, the rowers are just further away.
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Postby ZaphodBurner » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:17 pm

axolotl wrote:I personally think that the art themes in general are lame and trite and exist to be broken, and that the idea of trying to make Burning Man environmentally resp


The Green theme is a good challenge and raises awareness of the hypocrisy and duality ("It's a Jungian thing"--Full Metal Jacket) of being a "Leave No Trace" event that consumes thousands of gallons of fuel per day.

Nothing wrong with it. As ever, there's no requirement for your art or camp to follow the theme. Lame and trite? Not at all. It's just a challenge. If you don't already have an idea, there you go.

The Zaphod camp was part of the LNT tour in 2005 which turned out to be a rewarding challenge for us; engineering solar-and-battery power, trash sorting, gray-water disposal, etc forced us to be a little more creative and try to lead by example, even though some of our attempts failed. We certainly left no (visible) trace, and cleaned up a bunch of litter the asshats behind us left.

Litter laws and clean shitters might be trite and lame to others. I guess everybody draws their line differently. It doesn't hurt to try to raise awareness even if--admittedly--it seems a little absurd to build a giant wood and neon man, set off a shit ton of fireworks and then declare a Green theme next year.

I didn't see your post as a troll, by the way. It does provoke thought.
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Postby HughMungus » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:39 pm

No engines of any kind are allowed.
It's what you make it.
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Postby EspressoDude » Tue Oct 24, 2006 5:48 pm

HughMungus wrote:No engines of any kind are allowed.


:shock: Do you mean food powered engines also? i.e. HUMANS???? :shock:
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Postby diane o'thirst » Tue Oct 24, 2006 6:42 pm

HughMungus wrote:No engines of any kind are allowed.


Oooh, I finally get to bring my horse!

Image

In all seriousness...I tend to pay light and cursory attention-to-ignore the themes as a rule, but if the theme coincides with my idiom then I'm in with all four paws and a tongue besides. I went off for the Floating World and the Vault of Heaven, this theme dinged my doorbell and I'm in it 110%.

Is it affecting my project? Yes and no. I've been crawling in that direction for years now but now I'm trotting. I came up with the idea of a howling workshop, a tile mosaic sundial and grapevine wreathes for condom distribution points while I was out on the Playa, before I knew what the theme was going to be for this year. The howl workshop isn't an exact fit with the Green Man, as perceived (vis-a-vis "plants"), but in light of the lunar eclipse it does loosely fit with it if you consider the "collaboration with nature" point.

Right...enough of that. I'm off to cut out fabric birch leaves for my robe...
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:31 pm

I'm going back to the 16th century for a low tech hi tech camp. Also throwing in some native Am. that had a pratice of LNT.

/
For an art project, The DMV disolationed me for the last time. From now on, all "my" art forms will be kenetic.


Life on the playa is so much more fun on a adult trike. Even my son found more interaction walking. He left his bike unlocked at center camp so some one could take it.
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Oct 24, 2006 7:39 pm

Oh and power will be battery w/ solor charger. The panels cost about the same as a shitty generator.

I have fairly quit genny I made from salvage. cost me 10$. I can use it if the house power go's out.
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Postby Toolmaker » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:13 am

Well I know I cannot bring a dog but can I have a 1 horse power horse? From what I heard about the generators.. they are OK as long as they are painted green. In fact everything has to be green.. even the food will be soylent green. I will be painted green.. I have no green clothes so there will be no clothes. In fact to enforce the green we have plans to infiltrate a certain facility which I am sure will be heavily guarded just to dye some rude monkey green. The tutu can stay pink though. Thats a classy touch to it that should be left alone for the sake of art. But godammit everything WILL BE GREEN.
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Wed Oct 25, 2006 6:16 am

I've always wondered where all the environmentalist biz came from. This event was supposed to be about art, and going way the hell out in the middle of nowhere to burn a big wooden man, since they wouldn't allow it in town.
The whole "leave no trace" motto is because the law says we can't even burn the man way out there unless we clean up our mess.
Yes, I'm happy and proud that my favorite event has become a model for all other public events, it's probably the cleanest, least-littering, most responsible for taking care of it's own mess large-scale gathering in existence.
But I never saw environmentalism itself as a core element.
So what if you don't use a generator out there? How much fossil fuel did you burn to get there at all? How much was used to manufacture all the supplies you bought? Just by choosing to buy a ticket you are supporting the "waste" of lots and lots of fuel for generators and trucks to run the city's infrastructure and transport it all way out there... just for the hell of it.

Now, I have NO problem with people who wanna go solar/wind/whatever... if you enjoy that challenge, go for it and I'll stop by and check it out, and marvel at how cool it is, and be genuinely impressed.

If you wanna burn some gas, well what the hell, we're all "wasting" plenty to make it all happen, directly or indirectly.
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Postby EspressoDude » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:37 am

Speaking of gas and fossil fuel, be it Gasoline, diesel, propane, LNG or whatever; how many thousands of gallons are burned creating some of the fire sculptures that are Waaay Cooool.....

It is hypocracy to get on a high horse and preach about "green" when all this fire art is going on. How many hundreds of pounds of pollution are released into the atmosphere when the man is burned?

Wind power: The ORG has rules about clearances around fires and fire art. How much clearance will be required around a windmill? How far does a 6 foot rotor blade spinning at 200 - 400 rpm fly in 40 - 60 knot winds when it breaks loose from it's poorly designed hub? How green is that.

Solar panels: Websites quote 3 -5 year payback on costs if used continuously in low latitude sunny areas. How much nasty chemical processes are used and how much energy is used to manufacture these?
A 40 watt panel costs about $250. If one quarter of the cost is energy, then $60 is the cost of energy to make the panel. at $.10/kwhr that means 600 kilowatt hours (600000 watt hours)were used to make the panel. Payback is 600000/40 hours or 15000 hours at rated output.

So to recover the energy needed to make my(yes I own one)panel, I would need to attend 175 burningman events!!!


PARTY ON PEOPLE......If ya got em, burn em
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Postby geekster » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:48 am

We will probably be bringing our genny. Might also have a diesel running WVO. But since when has anyone payed any attention to the event theme anyway?
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:52 am

Green = 534 nm.
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Postby Ron » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:55 am

We've been talking and thinking about a way to go without a generator. Problem is that with about 8,000 pounds of water we have to move around we just haven't been able to come up with a workable replacement for electrical pumps and the generator they require. We're also searching for a biodiesel generator to rent and just blue-skying various ideas to try to make our camp more green. Don't know if we'll come up with anything or not, but I'm thankful for the challenge from the Org and hope that some campers/camps do make progress on improving their environmental impact. It's not about fully succeeding in that effort, as far as I can see, but about making the effort, increasing awareness, and producing incremental improvement rather than sudden solutions. "Every little bit helps," said the old lady as she pissed into the sea...

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Postby geekster » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:18 am

I learned that fully charged deep discharge batteries can provide lighting for our popup trailer for the entire event without a charge. I have taken a Honda 1000 watt generator the past two years and never used it.

Those RV wind generators work pretty well too to keep a top-off charge on batteries.

Use LED lighing whereever possible. Even UV LEDs work to highlight blacklight projects and consume less energy than fluorescents. Be careful with those though as they are much brighter in the invisible UV spectrum than in the visible and can cause eye damage if directly visible.
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:31 am

Thanks Ron, Nice thread.. The things I write about greening forward, (In that thread).. Are things I do every day at home and hope to bring some to the playa. Some things I bring will be test to see if they will work at home.


Most are cost effective without any additional cost at start up. For instance the 12volt system was present when I installed the solor panels. Then a clock on the water heater. 10$ salvage. Saved 15$ the first month. I just sat back and watched the electric bill drop. Living on a fixed income, saving just 10¢ on a dollor looks pretty good to me. So far it's has been better than that. I know I am just a little heel biter in the skeem of thing. If enough of us keep on nipping at the heels. Well.....
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:39 am

As far as that damn Caption go's, He is so ugly.. When he looks into the water his reflecton gets sick.. I hope enough new has worn off his new boat that he is present at BM this year. Without him there leaves me the uglyest man at BM.
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Postby blyslv » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:17 am

If you saw my post as a flame, I am sorry for your thin skin. It was nowhere near a flame.

Do you think "harnessing" or at least exploding the atom brings us closer or farther from nature? The source of all light and life on this planet is a damm near eternal (from our perspective) nooklayar explosion. Is that nature or something else?

------------------------------------

Battery manufacture is a very messy process, and charging, whether at home or on the playa is a less effeicent way of using hydrocarobons then just igniting them in a cylinder in your engine.

We are all astide a vast logistical pyramid, the base of which is so far beneath our feet that we are not even cognizant of it. so we can rearrange certain things and it will make us feel better about our role in the destruction of the current ecosytem but it ain't going to really change the impetus of human nature.

We like being the richest people on the planet. To maintain that position requires a high level of violence applied agaisnt other societies and belief systems. Good luck changing that!
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Postby dadinpain » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:19 am

Well, Im bringing my generator, Green or not. Its in spirit. I just cant see not having it for the week. Im bringing my blender. Hell Im even bringing my DirecTV, just in case I get so loaded and want to check out the weather channel, or watch 2 white guy box at 3 am on some sports channel. Ill save my cans to recycle, Ill even pick up some of the other peoples trash and hall it back. But I am NOT camping without my generator. Nuff said.

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Postby blyslv » Wed Oct 25, 2006 10:23 am

Most of the "green" blather is [url]ignored by those who blather.[/url] Instead it is happy marketing talk, kind of like the way Wal-Mart is co-opting the "organic" label.

And as dadinpain pointed out, we just like being rich too much to really change our ways.

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Postby Dr. Pyro » Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:52 pm

So am I the only one who thought that The Green Man referred to money?
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Postby geekster » Wed Oct 25, 2006 4:44 pm

Damn, Blyslv, well said!

Another thing people don't realize is that in many cases "green fuels" use more fossil fuel than just using fossil fuel to begin with. I understand the intention behind trying to do what one can to leave the world a little less dirty than it otherwise will be, but people are so often mislead by half-truths, various bandwagons, conventional wisdoms, and other things that seem like they ought to be true but just aren't.

If you look at the entire process of handling batteries through the entire lifecycle from manufacture to disposal or recycling, the entire process of building the electronics for charge management, the entire lifecycle process of the solar or wind generators needed to power them, it is neither clean nor efficient in the use of energy. Just mining the copper and lead required is an environmental horror story.

90% of conventional nuclear reactor waste, for example, could be reprocessed/recycled if we simply decided to do it. We know this already, we have the technology and have demonstrated it. The real reason we don't is because there is just too damned much money to be made by too damned many powerful people doing things the way we are doing them now for it to change any time soon.
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Postby HughMungus » Wed Oct 25, 2006 7:44 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:So am I the only one who thought that The Green Man referred to money?


2007's alternatheme!
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Postby diane o'thirst » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:20 pm

I think the lure of "green" fuels is not so much that they're energy-positive, but that they're *renewable*. There are finite supplies of fossil fuels. How long have we been using them? A couple hundred years, tops, maybe three hundred.

But, you take hydrogen — the most common element in the entire UNIVERSE — and for example, corn continually renews itself, year after year.
Same with methane. It's in constant rotational supply.

Growing ethanol crops, harvesting methane from sewage vats and compost heaps, drawing hydrogen are good ideas for future and stable power use. The idea here is to wean ourselves off petrofuels because the well's running dry. Problem is, the energy industry is headed by people with a gatekeeper complex; if a raw substance is in short and scattered supply, it's easier to meter and dole out.

The people of America and a fair percentage of its leadership have already gone down on record as having chosen mountains, bays, coastlines, forests and other environmental features over domestically-produced petrofuels. Those who want to see the black gold keep flowing and the lights to stay on say that you can't have it both ways; hydrogen fuel cells and ethanol, solar, wind energy and offshore wave generators put the lie to that.
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Wed Oct 25, 2006 9:23 pm

unjonharley wrote:As far as that damn Caption go's, He is so ugly.. When he looks into the water his reflecton gets sick.. I hope enough new has worn off his new boat that he is present at BM this year. Without him there leaves me the uglyest man at BM.


The new boat (the one that goes in the water) wasn't all that kept me away from BM again this year... I also wanted to give you another turn at being the ugliest person in BRC.
I figured with teeth like yours, you'd fit in with the "green" theme just fine as you are!

Unjon... I hope you bring some tequila for the generator-powered blender on the land yacht next year!
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Postby blyslv » Fri Oct 27, 2006 10:45 am

FWIW I started an organic garden last year, and just the other day I asked my favorite restaurant if I cold rake the leaves from their courtyard to use in my compost bin. I try to walk to work at least 4 days a week, partly to save gas and partly to get exercise. I garden partly to keep sane in my new back yard, partly because I love freshly picked vegetable and partly because in these days of supposedly impending peak oil, it seems to make sense to know how to grow your own food. It makes sense to know how to do all sorts of things for that matter!

In the summer our electric bill is about $15 dollars. In short, I try to reduce my "footprint" as much as possible (at least in this culture).

So I see the Green theme as an invitation to think, really think, about our place in nature. Instead of banning things, instead of thinking in terms of limitations and reducing I see it as a springboard into figuring out what "nature" is and trying to create something along those lines.

FWIW #2: this thread is an rare example of geekster and I agreeing on something!
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Fri Oct 27, 2006 11:39 am

unjonharley wrote:As far as that damn Caption go's, He is so ugly.. When he looks into the water his reflecton gets sick.. I hope enough new has worn off his new boat that he is present at BM this year. Without him there leaves me the uglyest man at BM.

So I'm off the hook. Nice.
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