Sound Issues with Outpost 23 AKA the Afterparty

Re: Sassy's Story

Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:42 pm

Player wrote:Ranger, he absolutely did not grab anyone's collar. If you were referring to someone else, I surely hope you'll clear that up.


Good to know... I'm simply relating what I was told. As I said, I can't guarantee that's what happened because I wasn't there at that point in time.

Player wrote:I told the Ranger (a super sweet gal) about the whole sordid tale. I told her the guy I talked to at Outpost 23 was really cool...I just wanted to know if anything could be done. She said she'd check on it, and if necessary have someone check the decibels of their music when it was actually happening. I thanked her. I saw her eventually go over to Outpost 23. I never saw nor heard from her again.


Most likely because rangers don't have a decible meter. I personally looked for one for two days, and couldn't find one. And of course by that time, you and your husband were already gone so I couldn't tell you that.

Player wrote:The entire block was really PO'd...Outpost 23 did not make a lot of friends this year. We were very thankful we had moved away.


That is true, many were upset... though I think if more of them had come over and said something about it earlier on, the week might have ended quite differently. As I said before, only Jill from FUCS was working with us on the issue. She said she was concerned with what might happen because she overheard people in the camps grumbling about retaliation, and I asked her to tell them to come over and talk with us. I know I personally made it a point to go to each camp and talk with them about it, stressing that they should come over and say something if the music was bothering them. None of them ever did.

I sincerely hope that we can work together as a community to resolve these sorts of issues, without resorting to an authoritarian solution. I believe in the strength of the BM community and would love to see the solution come from there.

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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Wed Sep 27, 2006 3:32 pm

I feel that Rangers should do the following when dealing with sound complaints;

1) Ask if those complaining have tried negotiations. If not, encourage them to do so. Perhaps provide helpful suggestions as to how to go about it (tho' they shouldn't have to, I mean we all are supposed to be adults here). Also, they should outline the process (something like what I did above, except step 5 would be Rangers getting involved).

2) Once/if citizen negotiations are ineffective (and I feel that they should encourage at least a few attempts spread over a few visits, although "verifying" that sincere negotiations have indeed been tried is difficult), then a team of Rangers should try to negotiate a compromise. They should also have a sound meter available to assist with the discussion, but as there are no official guidelines for BRC this might be a moot point. SPL meters are not that expensive, there is really no reason that there are not a dozen or so around for Rangers to use.

(I would suggest that BRC adopt a sound limit that says something like; "a max of 100db measured 50 feet from any point of a camp's border. This gives the "offending" camp the ability to calibrate their sound output to a more reasonable level, and provides a definitive measure.)

3) It shouldn't really go beyond 2, but if it does then the Rangers should give the camp a written warning (like a ticket maybe) that gets saved for the future in some file. This "warning" should be visible to all Rangers and an appropriate person at the BMorg (perhaps communicated at one of those daily meetings). The warning should make it clear that by ignoring further attempts at negotiations, disabling of the sound system is a possibility (per city sound rules). This warning would also be used for the next years placement process (ie- the Placer's get a copy also).

4) If the complaints continue (and ideally with an SPL limit further violations have been verified by Rangers), the camp should be given a choice; Move to a more appropriate location (LLSC), leave BRC, or have the sound system disabled.

5) If the camp "disappears", if they re-appear and new problems arise with new neighbors, goto step 4 (ie-do not start the whole process over by requiring several sincere attempts by citizens).

btw - from my experience, this is already the Ranger's SOP
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Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:02 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:1) Ask if those complaining have tried negotiations. If not, encourage them to do so. Perhaps provide helpful suggestions as to how to go about it (tho' they shouldn't have to, I mean we all are supposed to be adults here). Also, they should outline the process (something like what I did above, except step 5 would be Rangers getting involved).


Check. We already do that.

dragonfly Jafe wrote:2) Once/if citizen negotiations are ineffective (and I feel that they should encourage at least a few attempts spread over a few visits, although "verifying" that sincere negotiations have indeed been tried is difficult), then a team of Rangers should try to negotiate a compromise. They should also have a sound meter available to assist with the discussion, but as there are no official guidelines for BRC this might be a moot point. SPL meters are not that expensive, there is really no reason that there are not a dozen or so around for Rangers to use.


We also already try to bring people together to negotiate. On the subject of decible meters, if you are willing to spend the money to buy them for us I'm sure many of us would be happy to carry them for just such situations (I know I would) :)

dragonfly Jafe wrote:(I would suggest that BRC adopt a sound limit that says something like; "a max of 100db measured 50 feet from any point of a camp's border. This gives the "offending" camp the ability to calibrate their sound output to a more reasonable level, and provides a definitive measure.)


That would certainly help when it comes to negotiating, but that is up to the BMORG to set that guideline.

dragonfly Jafe wrote:3) It shouldn't really go beyond 2, but if it does then the Rangers should give the camp a written warning (like a ticket maybe) that gets saved for the future in some file. This "warning" should be visible to all Rangers and an appropriate person at the BMorg (perhaps communicated at one of those daily meetings). The warning should make it clear that by ignoring further attempts at negotiations, disabling of the sound system is a possibility (per city sound rules). This warning would also be used for the next years placement process (ie- the Placer's get a copy also).


This is where we'll have to disagree, because 1. I don't believe it is part of being a BRC Ranger to give out "tickets" or "warnings", and 2. it wouldn't be difficult for a participant to remove any such public notices anyway. We do already discuss troublesome situations with each other so that if the same issue comes up again it's in the notes, but handing out tickets sounds a bit too much like police officers to me.

dragonfly Jafe wrote:4) If the complaints continue (and ideally with an SPL limit further violations have been verified by Rangers), the camp should be given a choice; Move to a more appropriate location (LLSC), leave BRC, or have the sound system disabled.


We already do try to negotiate with camps to either move to another location or turn off their equipment. I personally feel that asking people to leave the city over this issue is major overkill, and I personally would not want to see the BRC Rangers being volunteered as the people who have to tell someone to leave BM because they're too loud.

dragonfly Jafe wrote:btw - from my experience, this is already the Ranger's SOP


For the most part, yes. The issue being discussed currently is what to do when negotiations fail, and who should be the ones to do it.

My personal point of view, and I speak only for myself here:

Some of my best playa experiences have been as a ranger. I remember hugging lost children while searching for their parents, standing over the wounded until the medics arrived, running through the city streets chasing a serial rapist, chasing down a shady speeding van on a one-speed tricycle (that ain't easy, let me tell you), talking someone down from a bad experience, sharing grief with loved ones of someone who recently died. I love joining performance art and participating with peoples' theme camps, getting a chance to get to know them. I love being given the opportunity to be a part of the city structure itself as a volunteer. There is nothing in the description of being a BRC ranger that curbs my enthusiasm for the job or for the group of wonderful people I do it with every year.

But if someone comes to me and says it is now part of my job to hand out tickets to loud camps and potentially kick them out for trying to have a party, well... that would be the first thing I've come across that would make me think twice about being a ranger. I have no interest in giving up the vacation time I plan for a year in advance in order to run around telling people what to do.

If it came down to a choice between being a ranger who gives out tickets and being a burner, I would probably choose to simply be a burner and there would be one less ranger on the streets. Some people may see that as a good thing, but it would make me sad.

My two cents.

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Postby Kinetic IV » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:05 pm

Not to be critical but...

A: Regarding Option 2 who's going to pay for the sound meters? The ORG rents the radios which means they don't have to maintain or store them the rest of the year...at least that's what I thought I read somewhere. Someone's gotta buy the meters, calibrate them, train the rangers in their use....and then make sure they are deployed on every shift in such a way as they'll be close by when needed. Or in other words it's a logistical mess for the rangers.

B: Regarding Option 3: Tickets for offending camps? We can't even get the Rangers to write up stolen bikes....which in some cases due to the monetary value involved is felony theft. To think that a Ranger is going to write up an offending theme camp for sound violations is pie in the sky. It ain't gonna happen.

C: Regarding Option 4....I like the direct approach. No waffling.

D: Option 5 is unenforceable....how will the Rangers know the camp has been previously cited without a database being established? How will dirt Rangers even know about the cite? It's a logistical nightmare...remember the Rangers are volunteers and there are limits on what they do out there. If you pile too much stuff on them you get into mission creep plus burnout...it could get to the point nobody wants to volunteer anymore. Then you could see paid rangers who really drink the koolaid and then you'll really have reasons to bitch.

(/soapbox)
(/fire the cannons)

Edit: Damn, Isiseyes beat me with a damn good post.
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Postby mo_corleone » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:11 pm

this whole issue is such a dead, decomposing horse but i guess everyone needs to get their complaints out somehow. the only difference is that this year the thread has a new title (see "300 watts bullshit" from last year for details). there are no easy solutions to this problem. in 2005, we were a registered sound camp that experienced problems with placement, neighbors, you name it. here are a few lessons we learned from last year that were key to our success this time around:

- talk to as many neighbors as possible *before* setting up all your stuff. we got there on sunday (pre-event) and let everyone in the area know that we intended to be loud... and we asked if everyone was cool with that.

- be nice. this one should be self-explanatory and i think everyone knows how it works, but sometimes it's easy to forget out there when someone seems to be throwing a wrench in your plans.

- loud camps should seek out a space near other loud camps. likewise for quiet camps. this is a personal opinion, but i think expecting quiet on 9:00 & anxious was a little bit unrealistic. it's one street back from the esplanade and along a keyhole/plaza spoke. come on.

- skip the registration process altogether. i may take some heat for this statement, but there are just too many things that can go sour when you register. there's a certain sense of entitlement that comes from getting placed, particularly when you've told the org what you plan to set up beforehand, and it makes negotiation difficult. a party camp sometimes erroneously gets placed next to a naptime camp and nobody wants to move because they're both in the guide and on the map. also, i've found that people are more likely to expect the 'authorities' to intervene when they've registered rather than working it out amongst themselves (since the 'authorities' have been involved so heavily in the process so far), and that creates bad blood right out of the gate.

our camp probably had the shittiest, most demoralizing year to date in 2005 and came back and had the most awesome, lively (and loud!) burn EVER this year. thank you very much 2006!
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Postby Ron » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:20 pm

isiseyes wrote:....My only point in posting originally was to say that there's always more than one side to a story, and blame does not fall squarely on any one individual or camp in this matter.....


Well, yeah it does. By breaking the 300 watt rule and by not reducing your volume level when asked, the O23 earns the full blame. All of it. It was your camp's fault (accepting the utility of "fault," and, "blame," which I usually don't), and you were assholes.

Now, me and my camp have been that exact kind of assholes as well. It took three days of fighting (within the camp) in 2005 to get it under control, and police intervention in 2003. So I understand from being assholes. But the fact that the planned amp broke down doesn't matter, nor does the fact that only one neighbor complained. It only takes one, IMHO, when you're playing over 300 watts at 4am outside the sound zone. And for that one you can guarantee that there were others who were frustrated and never said anything.

Now does being assholes make it OK for folk to flash their dangly bits? Nope. It's not your fault that happened at all. But it your fault that you all broke the rules and were rude to your neighbors.

As for what the Rangers should do, what do they do when they spot someone leaving trash on the playa? My suggestion would be that the Rangers should use that response as a model and go from there. Probably they should talk to the camp breaking the sound rules and ask them to stop. Failing a positive response they should issue a final warning and, still in the absence of that positive response, then get the real Rangers to back them up as they 86 the camp and escort them out of the gate.

The burn isn't, and never has been, an event with no rules. "It's the burn, I can do whatever I want," is unadulterated BS and always has been. You can't dump your grey or black water, you can't burn your toxic waste, and you can't inflect harm on your neighbors by blasting out sound at all hours. That's what the 300 watt rule is all about.

How do we prevent this from happening in the future? I'd suggest the org pushes the sound rules with the same kind of energy they put behind the rules on litter. And we all, as a community, support that effort by knowing what's expected of us and then meeting those expectations. But I'm kind of simple that way. :)

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Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:35 pm

Ron wrote:Well, yeah it does. By breaking the 300 watt rule and by not reducing your volume level when asked, the O23 earns the full blame. All of it. It was your camp's fault (accepting the utility of "fault," and, "blame," which I usually don't), and you were assholes.


We can take the blame for being over the sound limit, absolutely. But others who have been bashing the camp need to also take responsibility for the way they reacted to the situation, and for their refusal to become part of the solution now weeks after the event is done. I hate to rely on an old saying but "If you're not part of the solution you are part of the problem" definitely applies with these types of situations.

Ron wrote:How do we prevent this from happening in the future? I'd suggest the org pushes the sound rules with the same kind of energy they put behind the rules on litter. And we all, as a community, support that effort by knowing what's expected of us and then meeting those expectations.


I completely agree that education and finding new ways to communicate with neighbours is a great solution to the vast majority of problems on the playa! And I'm definitely open to hearing how you personally would deal with a situation where education and communication did not work and an individual or camp refused to turn its sound down, because that is what the big conundrum is currently.

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Postby unjonharley » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:37 pm

you guys keep talking about getting rangers involed. read what i have posted over and ove and over. the black rock city rangers. DO NOT GIVE A FUCK. You will be told "" to bad about you "" they told more than one person that in my camp area. Saying people sleep at different times and blah blah. Or the likes are the standard ansewers.


This all falls back on the placement people. who place all night rave dances where it will annoy the most people.
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Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:41 pm

unjonharley wrote:you gus keep talking about getting ranger involed. read what i have posted over and ove and over. the black rock city rangers. DO NOT GIVE A FUCK. You will be told "" to bad about you "" they told more than one person that in my camp area. Saying people sleep at different times and blah blah. Or the likes are the standard ansewers.


I'm sorry you feel that I do not give a fuck, despite the fact that I have been on this board all day trying to find new answers to this very old question. I know it is frustrating to feel like the very people you're told to talk to aren't listening, and I'm sorry you had that type of experience.

But perhaps instead of yelling about how no one cares, you can constructively add to the discussion and make suggestions about what can be done in the future. What do you think should be done about loud camps? And what potential future effects (if any) would that have on the philosophy behind Burning Man's "radical self expression"? In what situations would it be ok or not ok for the Org to boot people out of the event for annoying their neighbours, and who should be making those decisions?

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Postby helitack » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:48 pm

Please, volunteers, rangers small r=no authority, vs Rangers, paid professionals, capital R=Authority
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Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:50 pm

helitack wrote:Please, volunteers, rangers small r=no authority, vs Rangers, paid professionals, capital R=Authority


That's fine, spell it however you like and please feel free to scorn whomever you choose for whatever personal reasons you might have. I'll still be there to stand for you if you ever need me, though.

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Postby unjonharley » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:54 pm

isiseyes wrote:
unjonharley wrote:you gus keep talking about getting ranger involed. read what i have posted over and ove and over. the black rock city rangers. DO NOT GIVE A FUCK. You will be told "" to bad about you "" they told more than one person that in my camp area. Saying people sleep at different times and blah blah. Or the likes are the standard ansewers.


I'm sorry you feel that I do not give a fuck, despite the fact that I have been on this board all day trying to find new answers to this very old question. I know it is frustrating to feel like the very people you're told to talk to aren't listening, and I'm sorry you had that type of experience.

But perhaps instead of yelling about how no one cares, you can constructively add to the discussion and make suggestions about what can be done in the future. What do you think should be done about loud camps? And what potential future effects (if any) would that have on the philosophy behind Burning Man's "radical self expression"? In what situations would it be ok or not ok for the Org to boot people out of the event for annoying their neighbours, and who should be making those decisions?

Ranger Mockingbird


/ well first you did not get the rest of my post. second i do not feel that no one cares. i was told: it's just to bad about how i feel. This was in my face after 48 hours of the same beat. And you can skip the sweet face crap with me.
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Postby helitack » Wed Sep 27, 2006 4:56 pm

OK, I will, but as I see it, from the standpoint of a paid professional, if I were part of a camp that exceeded limits on sound, the issue would have been resolved to the satisfaction of the offended parties.
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Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:00 pm

unjonharley wrote:/ well first you did not get the rest of my post. second i do not feel that no one cares. i was told: it's just to bad about how i feel. This was in my face after 48 hours of the same beat. And you can skip the sweet face crap with me.


You're right, I didn't. Where is the rest of your post?

If someone literally said "Too bad for you", then you need to talk to the ranger organization about it. That is not the way we do things.

And there's no "sweet face crap", I really am sorry that you had that experience.

All of that aside, I'm interested in hearing what you have to say about the other part of my post:

isiseyes wrote:What do you think should be done about loud camps? And what potential future effects (if any) would that have on the philosophy behind Burning Man's "radical self expression"? In what situations would it be ok or not ok for the Org to boot people out of the event for annoying their neighbours, and who should be making those decisions?


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Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:02 pm

helitack wrote:OK, I will, but as I see it, from the standpoint of a paid professional, if I were part of a camp that exceeded limits on sound, the issue would have been resolved to the satisfaction of the offended parties.


You would be absolutely right, if enforcing that sort of thing were actually the BRC Rangers' job (paid or not). Right now it isn't. That's why I'd love feedback on this thread about what can be done in the future to resolve the problem.

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Postby helitack » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:05 pm

Then maybe said BRC rangers job, as part of the offending camp, would be to march that ranger butt to center camp and find out who has the authority to rectify the situation.
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:13 pm

isiseyes wrote:
helitack wrote:OK, I will, but as I see it, from the standpoint of a paid professional, if I were part of a camp that exceeded limits on sound, the issue would have been resolved to the satisfaction of the offended parties.


You would be absolutely right, if enforcing that sort of thing were actually the BRC Rangers' job (paid or not). Right now it isn't. That's why I'd love feedback on this thread about what can be done in the future to resolve the problem.

Ranger Mockingbird


/
This can be done very easy. Put the sound stages upon the board walk in the playa front and down a sin stripe behind that. Just get the shit out of the suburbs. exceptions would be theme art camps. I like my music and loud. But i do not feel the need to annoy the general public. <<<frog>>>
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Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:18 pm

helitack wrote:Then maybe said BRC rangers job, as part of the offending camp, would be to march that ranger butt to center camp and find out who has the authority to rectify the situation.


As far as I know, there is currently no system in place for dealing with this specific issue.

And I'm really unclear as to why you're so determined to be insulting to me on this thread instead of offering constructive suggestions for actually solving the problem, helitack. I have done nothing here but try to get ideas on how to resolve a problem that has been going on for years, and you seem to be taking this personally.

C'est la vie. There is nothing I can do about that. But I know I would certainly appreciate actual solutions instead of pointless snarky comments.

unjonharley wrote:This can be done very easy. Put the sound stages upon the board walk in the playa front and down a sin stripe behind that. Just get the shit out of the suburbs.


This is a great suggestion, except with the current camp being discussed the placement was on Anxious and 9 keyhole so it wasn't exactly the "suburbs". What can be done about theme camps place in loud traffic areas that exceed sound limits?

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Postby unjonharley » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:30 pm

unjonharley wrote:ot;]This can be done very easy. Put the sound stages upon the board walk in the playa front and down a sin stripe behind that. Just get the shit out of the suburbs.


This is a great suggestion, except with the current camp being discussed the placement was on Anxious and 9 keyhole so it wasn't exactly the "suburbs". What can be done about theme camps place in loud traffic areas that exceed sound limits?

Ranger Mockingbird[/quote]


/
I have been piggy backing on this thread. My grump comes from 8:30 and F street. When it come to A street and 9. still it comes down to placing. and for christ sake the middle of the night with a sound stage. How about the apex of BRC for that placement. It would be plan to see on the app. This camp came to show there ass and fuck people over.
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Postby Ron » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:47 pm

isiseyes wrote:....
We can take the blame for being over the sound limit, absolutely.


Bravo. But doing so means ending the attempts to mitigate the impression of your actions by pointing the fingers at how folk responded to your rudeness. How folk responded to your rudeness isn't really the point. Your camp spent *days* breaking the sound rules and ruining the burn of an unknown number of neighbors. If you're truly up for taking the blame for that, and assuming responsibility for it, apologize, resolve not to do it again, and move on. Pointing the finger at how those days of complaints were given doesn't jibe well with taking the blame for your actions. Make sense?

Now, if you want to start another thread about how authoritarian many folk who go to the burn have become, and how rude they are in attempting to enforce the rules, then I'm all with you. But that's a different topic, seems to me.

As for being part of the solution, folk forget all the time that complaining *is* being part of the solution. By pointing out the problem, in a public arena, the OP (and others in the various threads on this topic) do a critical service of giving the org, and the community, information on an existing issue. You may not like being the object of those complaints, I know I don't when it happens to me, but pointing out a problem is a vital part of finding a solution.

In fact, just this past year, I got a noise complaint. We were driving around with a water truck while a lovely lady rode on my lap and advertised our services via a megaphone. "Come get your showers," she'd call, "Can't get laid with dirty asses, you stinking hippies!" And so on. Folk came running, we sprayed 'em down, and then moved onto another area. It was before the burn has officially started, we were under 300 watts, and at around noon no one was sleeping. Know what? Someone still came over and asked us to be quiet. My friend started whispering through the blow horn, the guy who complained was happy, and we all went along our way. We were assholes, we were too loud, and we stopped when we were asked. Simple. If all of us assholes would be so aware it wouldn't be a problem.

isiseyes wrote:........... And I'm definitely open to hearing how you personally would deal with a situation where education and communication did not work and an individual or camp refused to turn its sound down, because that is what the big conundrum is currently.


In the event that they are inside the 10:00 to 2:00 zone the noisy ones win. Easy.

If the folk making the sound are outside that zone I'd start by contacting the rangers to mediate a solution or enforce the org's rules on sound. In an absence of enforcement effects I'd see if the BLM Rangers would help out. Failing that I'd look to mobilize the neighborhood. The odds are good that I'd find help and we could do all kinds of things to make our point. If that still didn't address the problem I'd go commando on the noise making equipment and try to disable it in such a way that it could be easily repaired, at the end of the event. Missing fuses, generator starter batteries or spark plugs, speaker cable, and so on all come to mind.

Luckily the walls of my RV and my ear plugs have been enough to give me personal shelter in all but the most extreme cases, and I've never had a problem that communication couldn't address.

Thanks, btw, to you for your positive attitude. And many thanks to Frog for his participation, it's good to see his puts here on this important topic.

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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:49 pm

isiseyes wrote:
dragonfly Jafe wrote:3) It shouldn't really go beyond 2, but if it does then the Rangers should give the camp a written warning (like a ticket maybe) that gets saved for the future in some file. This "warning" should be visible to all Rangers and an appropriate person at the BMorg (perhaps communicated at one of those daily meetings). The warning should make it clear that by ignoring further attempts at negotiations, disabling of the sound system is a possibility (per city sound rules). This warning would also be used for the next years placement process (ie- the Placer's get a copy also).


This is where we'll have to disagree, because 1. I don't believe it is part of being a BRC Ranger to give out "tickets" or "warnings", and 2. it wouldn't be difficult for a participant to remove any such public notices anyway. We do already discuss troublesome situations with each other so that if the same issue comes up again it's in the notes, but handing out tickets sounds a bit too much like police officers to me.

Ranger Mockingbird


The "ticket" serves two purposes;

A) It is a clear warning that the offenders have crossed a line, and are about to face a consequence if they do not change their behaviour.

B) It is a permanent record that can be used later (by placement folks, the Org, the Rangers, etc) to help justify what might happen next (ie- eviction, forced move, or disabling equipment)

Rangers already evict people for other causes such as filming young girls or driving too fast (with police backup if needed). Who makes that decision? How is that any different from what we are talking about?

And if you say those are actual crimes, how can you justify "letting the criminals go"? If they are real crimes, they should be turned over to the police for prosecution...(I'll avoid digressing into a side discussion of why the police don't want to get involved in such things)

What purpose do Rangers serve if not to help solve such issues? A lot of folks already think Rangers in general have an authority trip and an excessive love for uniforms. By avoiding the noise situation, this view (which I don't share) is only encouraged. It is tough, sure, but better a semi-official trained volunteer than a crazed sleep deprived individual seeing no other option than a pair of wire cutters.

The police won't do anything (unless you file a drug complaint), the Org choses not to enforce their own "rules", and now you are saying the Rangers want nothing to do with it. Which brings me back to my original point - vigilante-ism will get worse and worse as the city grows.
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Postby Ron » Wed Sep 27, 2006 5:52 pm

isiseyes wrote:...You would be absolutely right, if enforcing that sort of thing were actually the BRC Rangers' job (paid or not). Right now it isn't.

Ranger Mockingbird


Isn't mediating conflict between camps part of the Ranger credo? Is there some exception when the conflict involves sound, or am I missing something?

In terms of enforcement, again I ask, what are you told to do when you see someone dumping crap on the playa? Say you wander along and see someone putting a couch into a burn platform. What's Ranger training say to do in that situation?

Ron

(Sorry for all the questions, but I'm not certain about the answers and so asking honestly...)
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:06 pm

...just spent some tiime visiting the Ranger website and reading their manual - a fascinating and enjoyable read, and time well spent! I recommend it to all.

And it turns out there is additional guidelines listed there-in. Pg 32 of the 2006 Ranger manual states (in parts);

"Sound levels emitted from any camp should not cause serious disruption
to adjacent camps. Sound systems may not exceed 300 watts or 90dB
at 25’ from the speakers in the City without prior approval. If a problem
with sound levels occurs, and continues unabated, the source of power
for such a device or system may be disabled."

So I guess the question now is, under what circumstances would this be invoked? What counts as "serious", and "continues unabated"?

I can see why the Rangers don't want to hand out tickets, although I think it would not be a bad idea if they did, but why not follow the manual?

I am not talking about the Outpost23 camp per-se, but the apparent attitude that many report that "Rangers can't do anything but attempt to mediate".

If there is no real consequence, some folks will just not listen. I admit, it is very rare in BRC (one of the neat things about it and one of the reasons I keep coming back). But I have seen it happen a few times....

BTW - I think 90db at 25' from the speaker is a tad restrictive...what if the speaker is inside an enclosure, 100' from the nearest camp boundry? I would recommend this be ammended in the 2007 manual to reference the camp's boundry instead. I realize that Rangers will use there good judgement in such a situation, but still....

2nd BTW - the manual also lists sexual misconduct and mutant vehicle misconduct as both job responsibilities, and mandatory to report, so I guess I answered my own questions there....
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Postby Sassy » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:14 pm

When I returned to the camp around 4 am monday morning to make sure I was there for the scheduled party in case anyone on the block wanted to speak to a ranger...


Ranger, check the Ranger Rule Book -- you're not allowed to patrol your own camp.

Some of my best playa experiences have been as a ranger. I remember hugging lost children while searching for their parents, standing over the wounded until the medics arrived, running through the city streets chasing a serial rapist, chasing down a shady speeding van on a one-speed tricycle (that ain't easy, let me tell you), talking someone down from a bad experience, sharing grief with loved ones of someone who recently died. I love joining performance art and participating with peoples' theme camps, getting a chance to get to know them. I love being given the opportunity to be a part of the city structure itself as a volunteer. There is nothing in the description of being a BRC ranger that curbs my enthusiasm for the job or for the group of wonderful people I do it with every year.


Hmmm, Ranger, you're starting to sound like Florence Nightingale here. You sound AWFULLY willing to help now, but why didn't you stand up for the good name of the Rangers when we were actually GOING THROUGH THIS on the playa?

We heard about your wires being pulled out (not cut, as some people in this thread keep saying). But it was after many, many sleepless nights of 2,000 watt music. It certainly wasn't out of the realm of sanity at this point. Jill from the FUCS saloon is a sweetheart and she told us about her convos with you guys. And STILL you persisted. All the while knowing you were over the 300 watt limit.

The solution? Personally, I have NEVER seen a Ranger take care of any noise problems out there. Why we're told to report noise violations to a Ranger is completely beyond my comprehension. It seems the BRC community is relegated to figuring things out for ourselves. Talk it out, yes. But if talking day, after day, after day doesn't work (hey, we're only there for a week, people!!), then the offending camp should be prepared for drastic action by their formerly-friendly-and-ready-to-work-it-out-neighbors who just couldn't take it anymore.
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:28 pm

SASSY said<<snip>>

Sassy, just bring a bull horn in 07. There are enough of us to do some good. If you hold the mike to the horn, The squeech will almost make you wet yourself. Now how any can we get to bring bull horns?
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Postby Kinetic IV » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:31 pm

I'll step up and commit to bringing a bullhorn next year. I wanted to this year but it just didn't pan out.

(The idea of me with a bullhorn should make a few people start sweating a bit...cause not everything coming out of that bullhorn will be peace and love. I pity the sucker throwing plastic on the burn platforms!)
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Postby spectabillis » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:36 pm

Sassy wrote:... Ranger, check the Ranger Rule Book -- you're not allowed to patrol your own camp...

... but why didn't you stand up for the good name of the Rangers when we were actually GOING THROUGH THIS on the playa?...


just a side note, those two somewhat contradicting comments kinda place the person in an impossible situation. saying they are not allowed to get involved, yet inferring they should have.
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Postby dj_john69 » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:44 pm

In 2002, we did a LSSA on 10:00 and Esplanade. On Sunday morning after the Burn, a sheriff from Gerlech came to my camp and told me to turn off our sound system...which we still had 2000+ people dancing. Ya what to know what i said ??

I FLIPPED him off and told him to deal with the sound for another few hours.

YES, we were placed there.

YES, we had sound complaints from neighbors.

Did i turn it down or off ?? FUCK NO !! :twisted:

Whats the difference of my story to this story thats got Player's panties still in a wad ??

Not much...i just like telling my story. :twisted:

~John

p.s. PLAYER...you sound like a whiny lil bitch instead of a Burner vet !! Get over it. Learn to camp on the outskirts champ.
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:48 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:I'll step up and commit to bringing a bullhorn next year. I wanted to this year but it just didn't pan out.

(The idea of me with a bullhorn should make a few people start sweating a bit...cause not everything coming out of that bullhorn will be peace and love. I pity the sucker throwing plastic on the burn platforms!)


/
Have forgotten mine a few years. So will put it with the playa gear.
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:49 pm

unjonharley wrote:SASSY said<<snip>>

Sassy, just bring a bull horn in 07. There are enough of us to do some good. If you hold the mike to the horn, The squeech will almost make you wet yourself. Now how any can we get to bring bull horns?


I hope what is being proposed is not to start out with a salvo of bullhorns on feedback before mediation is attempted. But, as a "last resort" I like it. a few issues to think about, tho'

How do we make sure that the cure is not worse than the disease (so to speak)? I would think unless the neighbor camps were with us, they might object to the feedback more (unless it was just for a few minutes, and then it would not likely be effective). Do we warn the target camp first (perhaps as a last attempt for mediation before retaliation?)

How do we make sure that the desired solution (mediation) occurs? Do we have a spokeperson (without a bullhorn and good at Ranger-like F.L.A.M.E. non-confrontational confrontation) that takes point and asks for a serious mediation effort before the feedback stops? Would it be possible (or desired) to request Ranger back-up for such an "artistic expression"?

How do we protect ourselves from angry folks inside the targeted camp who think that bullhorn should be shoved up one of our orifices? Safety in numbers?

Who desides which camps get targeted? Or is this an individual thing?

edit: should we start a new thread so Outpost23 doesn't continue to be publicly thrashed (via the title), as they were certainly not alone in 2006 in being in violation of city guidelines....they have probably been thrashed enough over this already...?
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