NO GOOD MUSIC IN 2006?

NO GOOD MUSIC IN 2006?

Postby bassdragon » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:21 pm

I just heard the horribly disturbing news that many of the major music camps having financial troubles including the unparralelled El Circo, and also Lush, Sol System, Lotus are consequently will not be coming to the Playa this year. BMORG is apparently unwilling to help out and some sort of protest is developing. Does anyone know anything about this?
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:34 pm

BMORG wont shell out money to Lush so they can spend more money to clean up after them?



Bastards!




Of course, if you started your own foundation that would put out grants to music counts you could fund them.
And if you collected lackeys who'd clean up after them, Chai Guy has some great ideas about how to market that!
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Postby Kinetic IV » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:02 pm

Considering the way some of those camps left the playa and all the MOOP they generated, having fewer of them might turn out to be a good thing. Besides I thought BM was about building a community. Throbbing temples of boom, boom, boom until 7 am is only one part of the experience and if they want money they should stand in line behind everyone else wanting some.

Or in other words quit the whining and go find another way to pull it off or scale back. Maybe if the large scale camps decrease it will get people to spend more time checking out the theme camps and other things out there.

And as I wrote that I thought about it a little more and I went back and looked at the 10 Principles of Burning Man. Here's number 2:

Gifting
Burning Man is devoted to acts of gift giving. The value of a gift is unconditional. Gifting does not contemplate a return or an exchange for something of equal value.

If you have to pay for the gift it's no longer a gift. And it flies in the face of what the event is about. So...who was wanting money again?
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:10 pm

The lack of tintinitus? Priceless.
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Postby Sandwichman » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:05 pm

I said it in another space and I will say it here. Grants are the social security/ welfare/ unemployment of our community. Imagine all of these projects having to actually build without the help they receive from the grant system. It would force people to become creative. People believe the art would decrease but is it the art or the coatails disappearing. Radical self reliance all the way.
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Postby Sandwichman » Thu Jun 29, 2006 4:06 pm

Also another thought is only allowing 1 grant in a lifetime. Kind of like the scholarship ticket program.
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Postby Badger » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:24 pm

Grants are the social security/ welfare/ unemployment of our community.


If your gripe is with the large sound camps then I'm behind your idea pretty much across the board although I'm somewhat suspect that any of the larger music camps get anything more than pretty cush Esplanade placement. However, if this is an across the board whine-a-thon about funding in general I'd ask that you consider the folks who built and brought you 1) HellCo 2) the Duck Bar 3) the Dice Bar 4) The Machine 5) The Male Impotence Compensation Project 6) any of a number of extraordinary pieces not lacking in imagination but preposterously expensive to build, ship and then burn. Sure the grant process might be refined a bit more to weed out the no-shows and yeah, some of the stuff looked better on paper than in real time but what's perfect in this world besides myself?
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Postby Sandwichman » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:43 pm

Badger wrote:
Grants are the social security/ welfare/ unemployment of our community.


If your gripe is with the large sound camps then I'm behind your idea pretty much across the board although I'm somewhat suspect that any of the larger music camps get anything more than pretty cush Esplanade placement. However, if this is an across the board whine-a-thon about funding in general I'd ask that you consider the folks who built and brought you 1) HellCo 2) the Duck Bar 3) the Dice Bar 4) The Machine 5) The Male Impotence Compensation Project 6) any of a number of extraordinary pieces not lacking in imagination but preposterously expensive to build, ship and then burn. Sure the grant process might be refined a bit more to weed out the no-shows and yeah, some of the stuff looked better on paper than in real time but what's perfect in this world besides myself?


I guess I feel that there are many projects that use the grants as a crutch when walking on all fours. Many of these people have the ability to raise the funds but opt to apply for a grant. I am not saying the finished products are any less spectacular but I believe in trying to refine the process to weed out the capable people from those who truly need help. It is needed albeit not so feasible and why we are where we are now. I would rather see less art and have more people pushed to find funding outside of grants. Get dirty and do bakesales and get out into their communities. I am not stuck on any of these ideas just feeling like ranting today.
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Postby AntiM » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:02 pm

I think much hinges on one's definition of "good music."
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Postby BoxaRox » Thu Jun 29, 2006 6:25 pm

I would have to say that, Burning Man aside and in the most cynical sense, the subject of this thread would have to be true.
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Postby Badger » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:14 pm

refine the process to weed out the capable people


But sometimes those capable of executing an idea aren't always $rolling in the money. There have been a few exceptions with the Emerald City camp coming to mind. For the most part though it seems to me that some of the more amazing large scale art stunts have been those needing some outside infusion of capital to pull it off.
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Postby Sandwichman » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:53 pm

Badger wrote:
refine the process to weed out the capable people


But sometimes those capable of executing an idea aren't always $rolling in the money. There have been a few exceptions with the Emerald City camp coming to mind. For the most part though it seems to me that some of the more amazing large scale art stunts have been those needing some outside infusion of capital to pull it off.


I should have specified that the capable being those who can afford it or have a network that can collectively afford it. As I said it is not feasible but the thought is nice.
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No grant budget

Postby lomaxfrog » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:35 am

Hi,

The Black Rock City Placement does not have any budget for any
grant: no Theme Camp has received any grant for many years now.
The last grant given to Theme Camp was in 1998.

Remember that grant money comes from ticket sales. Giving
grants to Theme Camp would mean that the ticket price would
have to be raised.

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Postby Sandwichman » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:50 am

That I think is an understood point Frog. I think that the issue that has come up now is how are grants serving us at this time. Are the grants something many artists rely on or do people have sound budgets for projects that don't include outside assistance. Imagine the funded projects be denied a grant would they stop dead in the water or would they find a way to fund? I think those with the vision and the need to show their work would persevere. Of course I am opinionated and the coffee has not quite kicked in.
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Postby Ugly Dougly » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:26 am

theCryptofishist wrote:The lack of tintinitus? Priceless.


HAH? WHAT'S THAT?!
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:26 am

Does it really cost those soundcamps 30 to 40 THOUSAND to set up?
And with all that electronics they might be hard hit by the increase in gas.
Still don't see it as teh llc's responcibility.
Consolidation? Switching off year by year? Revisioning?
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Postby Kinetic IV » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:34 am

Hmmm...maybe instead of the old line that Burning Man was better last year, without the big budget productions people might be able to say that this year's event was the best ever. It's just a thought.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:41 am

I'm really dissapointed that bassdragon hasn't come back for a 2nd go. I remembered my awful lotus story last night.

Still, it's probably good that I don't give into fishy mean-spiritedness too often.
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Postby Sandwichman » Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:59 am

If it is costing $30,000 for them to put together El Circo it is a sign that their drug habits are getting more expensive.
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Postby blyslv » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:48 pm

Who says it has to be the same year after year?
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Postby trilobyte » Fri Jun 30, 2006 12:59 pm

I think to just write off El Circo as a "sound camp" or throw snickety rave and drug jokes in there is both juvenile and short-sighted.

It's not just a dome and some speakers, folks. And it's not just oontz oontz oontz of DJ's playing techno. Last year I heard everything ranging from ambient/downtempo to funky breaks to asian underground to live musicians and back again. I heard just about everything in there - it was one of the most musically diverse places on the playa.

The dome is huge, and requires a crane for setup/teardown (no idea what the rental is on that). The lighting and rigging inside is elaborate, as well. Aside from the costs of buying it (which is what they've done over the years, I believe), the cost of replacing lamps and gels alone after a trip to the playa has got to be pretty high. The sound system, like the lights, is bought and paid for but there's a cost to replacing parts and cables that get worn through the course of the week. Talking to one of the organizers last year, I know that the cost of the generator rental was around $5K. There's also the cost of hauling all that stuff to and from the playa (not just speakers and lights and the steel frame and canvas of the dome, but the stages and other support structures for the camp itself).

Inside that dome were some of the most amazing performances I've ever seen. The fire/fashion show in 2004, the vaudeville-ian burlesque in 2005, and even the Sunday morning puppet show. Forget about all the time and energy involved (we all put our time and energy into things we do on the playa), the cost of raw materials alone has got to be enormous.

If you never actually took the time to explore the El Circo dome and really only think of it as a sound camp, my condolences.

I'm not going to get into the issue of BRC grants or any of that because I don't really know any of the details on either side of that argument (other than good people are involved on both sides). But I think writing El Circo off as just a sound camp or implying that they spend all their money on drugs is just plain wrong.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:09 pm

Thank you, trilobyte, for actually writing about a camp you like.
That's a hell of a sight better than just writing a blanket statement with a generic description and throwing in that's there's some sort of injustice because things don't work out the way you'd like.

I'm still back at "well the BRAF funds what it funds, adn that aint changing" but at least I don't think you're an idiot. You're articulate and passionate and make a good case why you might chip in to bring them back onto the playa.
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Postby Sandwichman » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:50 pm

It's not just a dome and some speakers, folks. And it's not just oontz oontz oontz of DJ's playing techno. Last year I heard everything ranging from ambient/downtempo to funky breaks to asian underground to live musicians and back again. I heard just about everything in there - it was one of the most musically diverse places on the playa.


Does this make it any less a sound camp? I heard so many camps last year playing all kinds of beats. To treat the people commenting here as if they have no idea about what music is, is simply juvenile. I think each person here understands music and diversity. Sure El Circo is not Oonsa Oonsa but they are predominant breaks and that cannot be denied.


The dome is huge, and requires a crane for setup/teardown (no idea what the rental is on that). The lighting and rigging inside is elaborate, as well. Aside from the costs of buying it (which is what they've done over the years, I believe), the cost of replacing lamps and gels alone after a trip to the playa has got to be pretty high. The sound system, like the lights, is bought and paid for but there's a cost to replacing parts and cables that get worn through the course of the week. Talking to one of the organizers last year, I know that the cost of the generator rental was around $5K. There's also the cost of hauling all that stuff to and from the playa (not just speakers and lights and the steel frame and canvas of the dome, but the stages and other support structures for the camp itself).


If it is too costly don't do it. How many other camps receive funding? Oh that's right, zero! If El Circo is doing it for the love then do it and don't ask for a handout. By this point a camp that runs many fundraisers and has been around as long as El Circo it is troublesome that they do not own the gear that they need and have to rent at what anyone in the business knows to be high prices. I personally see a group of people who have mismanaged fundraising and now when they can't close the gap they are crying about it.


Inside that dome were some of the most amazing performances I've ever seen. The fire/fashion show in 2004, the vaudeville-ian burlesque in 2005, and even the Sunday morning puppet show. Forget about all the time and energy involved (we all put our time and energy into things we do on the playa), the cost of raw materials alone has got to be enormous.

If you never actually took the time to explore the El Circo dome and really only think of it as a sound camp, my condolences.


I honestly felt let down by the performances this year. I was in there often and got bored quickly. The djs have failed to push themselves past playing the latest Tipper release. There is new sounds to be had and new directions but I see people milking the cash cow.


I'm not going to get into the issue of BRC grants or any of that because I don't really know any of the details on either side of that argument (other than good people are involved on both sides). But I think writing El Circo off as just a sound camp or implying that they spend all their money on drugs is just plain wrong.


I will cede that this point was me being an asshole and I apologize. I as dj get accused many times of being a user of many substances and am fairly sober except for my whiskey.


I think the biggest issue right now lies in the fact that a camp like El Circo would have the audacity to ask for funds from the BORG. They knew going in that theme camps are not funded. They really need to think about why they are doing this if in the end they have to ask for that handout.
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Postby blyslv » Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:00 pm

I grant that many of the sound camps or whatever you want to call them are massive undertakings. I've had fun in some of them and as often happens on the playa, marveled at the love and energy that brought that stuff out there, love and energy that I had always assumed was expended with no thought of recompense.

Now I find out that they are greedheads just like everyone else and it makes me hurt on the inside.
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Postby bassdragon » Sat Jul 01, 2006 10:43 pm

Hmmmmmmmm. It was not my intention in making this post to spark a dialogue about grant funding or the merits of dance music on the playa. I posted in a rush because I was somewhat freaked by the bad news. My original goal was really to elicit information about the developing controversy. I am profoundly bummed by the prospect that El Circo may be absent. The music and performance at El Circo have been central to my BM experience for 5 or 6 years. Now that I have had some time to think about this I can be more clear and specific about my questions If anyone has any info about these I would sure appreciate a reply?

Is it true El Circo will not be coming in 2006?
If so is this in fact because of financial difficulties?
Is it true that no other large music installation will be making it?
Is it true that El Circo (and possibly others) have approached BMORG about supporting music on the playa this year?
Is it true that BMORG has declined? Why?
Is there some sort of boycott happening?

For what its worth I regret using "good music" in the post subject. That word choice implys a judgment that I did not intend about all the other music out there. There is no reason to judge others tastes or experiences. I thirst for the music and performance El Circo provides. You don't have to and its pointless and narrow to judge each other. Different strokes . . .

I am sorry to hear that Lush had a MOOP problem. I put several hours in MOOPing around El Circo and know it was looking pretty good on Sunday afternoon.

Regarding all the other posts about funding etc. here are some questions to consider.
What is ART? (Do YOU need to like it?)
Does ART include music, sound, dance?
Does it include the music, sound and dance that occurs under the El Circo dome?
If music, sound and dance are ART are they less worthy of BRAF/BMORG funding than other sorts of projects?
Why is El Circo's project any less valuable or worthy of funding that the projects that do recieve grants?

Food for thought
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Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Jul 03, 2006 8:31 am

Have you tried talking directly to El Circo? There's a good chance that their contact info from last year is still good. It seems like a much more productive use of time.
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Postby spectabillis » Mon Jul 03, 2006 9:39 pm

bassdragon wrote:Hmmmmmmmm. It was not my intention in making this post to spark a dialogue about grant funding or the merits of dance music on the playa...


you just happened upon another land-mine issue here with a long history. people on both sides will have valid points to discuss and consider even though it might be a bit heated at times.


at least its not a full-out bitchslapfest, at least something has changed.
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Postby d6 » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:28 am

Hiya - so if you want to bring big sound, play what you want, you will.
but you may get tired of:
vital support structure piece broken or missing one-of-a-kind connecting ingredient, imploding domes, fuel "accidents", stolen tools, stolen equipment, MOOP parties, broken equipment, big trucks, machines, generators, demand-making humans, stolen camp goods, never seeing the rest of brc, conflicting ego-maniacal passive/aggressive types, wiring gone bad, wiring been cut by something that doesnt like what youre playing/when youre playing it, wind destruction and the rebuilding it brings, air-compressing as futile cleaning attempt to salvage alkaloid attacked electronics, the eternally missing patchcord, "can i play at your camp", requests for the "ghostbusters" theme.....NOW!, the physical limitations of constant work and sleep deprivation that always make for a most pleasant persona....,"that doesnt sound right" problem fixing, corporate negotiating for the esplanade and corner of placement, the sound on sound battles with the neighbor sound camps, reliable worker bees in short supply, breakdowns/meltdowns on the way to /arriving at/ being in brc, somebody spilled something in my: speaker/amp/turntable/cd deck/ipod/body, and the pre/post
fundraisers/paychecks going to replace busted whatnot and to pay for all the expenses/debt incurred.

And that was just the preface.....

Any of the large projects,sound or otherwise, require massive hours/$$,and wether you like what you hear/see or not, you cant fault the effort that goes into them, or that the core group gets burned out or just may want to "move on" from brc installations.
Some camps always seem to be executed better than others, some reaching you more profoundly,etc,etc.

(drift)
Personally we spectated w/small "art" 96-99,
We did primarily sound/food camps 00-02
2003 we only volunteered/brought art cars -no dedicated "public"camp of our own
04-06 - art/robots and more robots
(end drift)

Most of the big attempts, funded or not, have our gratitude.
We've never applied for a grant, dont have a sugarmomma/daddy,but will always return with what we can, especially
To see what other hu-mans are trying to "pull-off".
As to the "who deserves grants" debate, I'm not on the board that decides, dont want to be, and am too self-absorbed with my own delusions of what to try to make next.


d6, blowhard-bot and fan of those who try.
Time is finite, and I like to see as much creative effort as possible.
your witty rejoinder just flew over my head.....

no trust fund getting supply buying self-reliant non-bankrolled questionable artistic contributor sacrificing electronics at will build it destroy it clean it haul it financially uninterested uber-bot
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Postby Token » Wed Jul 05, 2006 10:01 pm

I'll trade you an El Circo, Lush, Sol System, and Lotus for a Rubber Ducky or Fuzzy Dice Jazz Bar any year of this millennium.

This all sounds like the regular BM rhythm of change. New blood will fill in the void at some point. Let it breathe...
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Postby Bunnynutzz » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:15 am

Burning Man has been such an beautiful experience for me and so many others. People speak so passionately about it because of its powerful influence on our lives. El Circo . . . wow, I will miss it. But not as much as I would miss the playa. It bums me out so see hostility between fellow burners. And why . . . over money? No wonder the good 'ol dollar has no place in BRC. I wish I had more to contribute to el circo . . . and Sol System, lush and lotus . . . . and space island, those waffle girls, snowconers, the naked old man chef who camped next to me and fed my small camp in 2001, the BBCII for daily wine and cheese parties at sundown. So many people bring mad game to the playa. It blows my mind, and it continues to be the best time I've ever had . . . every year.

I'm sad that all the big, great sound camps can't all be there as a collective production, but I'm so tremendously thankful for the people who pulled it off to make a completlely unique and memorable experience for the rest of us. I'm excited to see some new people step up to the challenge. And you veterans from those powerhouse camps . . . enjoy the playa . . . float around. Thanks for the info in this post. And Trilo, I've read many of your posts in the years past. You are so good at keeping it positive. Thanks to everybody who hauls insane quantities of manterials, music and gifts to a blistering desert and still have room for great energy and big smiles. I love that place. It's going to be another beautiful year.
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