Edit Discussion

Discuss the policies of ePlaya here.

Should there be editing of posts?

No - no editing
8
17%
Some form of limited edit (timeout/last post/etc.)
21
45%
Yes - unrestricted
18
38%
 
Total votes : 47

Postby Don Muerto » Mon Mar 28, 2005 3:48 pm

Ludwig, thank you for providing your input and some interesting reasons for why you don't want to see the edit function returned. I want you to know that I appreciate the tone and content of your post even if I disagree with your views.

No one has suggested forcing people to edit their posts, so volition is really not an issue here. No-edit doesn't actively "enforce behavior" as you're cleverly trying to suggest, it just prohibits one behavior, namely editing.


The enforce behavior idea is not my argument, but another's reasoning for why we shouldn't have edit. The idea being it will make people more careful. I think the lived experience of the board, sans edit, has shown that not having edit has not removed the need or desire for it.

No, but we do have to provide sound reasoning or other justification for those philosophies if we care about anyone else taking them seriously. "I don't wanna use Preview because it's boring and sometimes I forget" is, to put it mildly, less than persuasive.


I have never made that argument, and several well-spoken posters who use the preview feature have come out and said they *still* wish they had edit as preview doesn't get the job done completely. I agree that we need sound reasoning to back up our philosophies, but I have yet to read much of this from the anti-edit side. You have provided reasons, but I disagree with them as I have outlined below.

"Boogeymen" are perceived threats that do not actually exist; historical revisionism, since it does exist (I've seen it myself) is not a boogeyman.


By that definition, so do boogeymen exist because kidnappers and other human monsters exist. The point wasn't that revisionism hasn't or won't occur, -it is that the impact of it has been overstated and overreacted to.

Poster1: I'm sick of all the fags and niggers at the event.
this post has been edited

Don Muerto: I agree...


Why in the world wouldn't I edit my post to say, "This fuckwit edited his original post in an effort to make me look like the homophobic racist he is..."? If they can edit their posts, then so can I edit my responses.

If you're thinking that only an insignificant number of people would be so hateful, you need look no further than Captain Fuckwit's diseased invective just upthread. And relatively benign pranksters are probably in far greater abundance around here.


His "diseased invective" should not be cause to limit the experience of everybody in ways that are unpopular. You'll note his diseased invective was placed here in a no-edit environment, so I am not sure how not being able to edit is saving us from such.

Having no edit lays the minor burden of clicking Preview on each poster, and only at the time the post is actually being made. Allowing edit places on everyone the burden of having to re-read the entire thread...I'd call that burden considerable -- suffocating, even.


I disagree. There is a collective memory at work here even in an unlimited edit environment. Even if I don't catch it, others will unless it is buried deep in the history of the thread.

So, the worst case is that somebody goes way back in thread time to put isolated cases of your statements out of context. This is pretty difficult to do without the malefactor putting his/her own out of context except in a-historical examples concocted in policy discussion threads and without before and after conversational context. I am willing to take that risk, as the weight of all my posts make up who I am online, -not one thing in far history.

It seems to me that people don't read the back pages anyway as the number is overwhelming. Old posters know you from your accumulated cotemporal context, and new posters get to know you similarly on a going-forward basis, -not by rereading the tens of thousands of historical posts laying around here.

Granted, a 15 minute time limit on edits would significantly alleviate the Poster1 scenario, but once that's available people will bitch that fifteen minutes isn't nearly long enough to reformulate their thoughts, or to go back and remove their drunken ramblings from Saturday at 3AM. And they'll be right; fifteen minutes is about long enough to spot typos and make minor corrections and not much more. So if the purpose of Edit is simply to fix typos before committing one's words to posterity, what's Preview for??


Limited edit is better than no edit, but I still contend that the arguments marshalled against unlimited edit amount to little in terms of community impact. Your worst case scenarios aren't nearly as bad as the cruft added to the board by people bitching about not having edit or editing in subsequent posts. This is my opinion, but I think that it is shared by quite a few.

To answer your question: "Preview" is a shoddy half-measure replacement for Edit.

More importantly, edit allows posters to do much more than "simply fix typos." The quoted examples on page 3 of this discussion show how edit has been used to: remove personal information about 3rd parties that should not have been put there in the first place, remove graphic information that might upset friends and relatives of somebody killed on the road home from BM, to clarify posts, to add useful and pertinent information to posts, and to satisfy the poster with what they have posted in the spirit of "you own your own words".

Unlimited edit is a total mess, and we already have the equivalent functionality of a 15-minute edit window.


Could you please clarify this statement? I don't understand what you mean.
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Postby emily sparkle » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:53 pm

*whew* caught up, now off to yoga.

but... i still am on the 'limited edit' bus... i'm really bad at preview, though i'm trying to be better because my posts have been misinterpreted before.

the poster who deleted all of his content did so on the webcrossing board i think. i'm not 100% certain of the username (those emails are long gone) and i my memory is fuzzy around it. i think a case was being built against the poster and the admin team was considering action and the person went in an posted a snarky 'it's my RIGHT' remark in practically every post he'd ever made so it became a pain in the ass to investigate. i was very much in 'stay out of the community drama, delete ads, fix passwords' mode at that point and remember not really participating in the decision making since i didn't have anything to reference in a decision process.

ag... i do not believe it's possible to take away your edit ability. spanky may have had to turn that on to set the moderator status stuff. i'll get back to you after class.
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Postby Nightterror » Mon Mar 28, 2005 4:53 pm

Don Muerto wrote:I am guilty of skimming. I thought we were talking wholesale thread ownership across the entire eplaya.

Oh how I wish I could go back and edit my post to make it look like you are a racist.


Is this a good example as to why we should not be allowed the Privilege of an edit function?
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Postby Bob » Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:10 pm

Nightterror wrote:...allowed the Privilege of an edit function...


Crikey, it's just a user interface option. Don't make it sound like a comp ticket to Burning Man.

We've had edit capability here once upon a time, and so far I don't think an argument has been made as to how it's ever really been abused to the detriment of the "community". If the context of someone else's post matters to you in a response, then simply use the quote function as accurately as you might wish, and add a date stamp.
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Postby Don Muerto » Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:56 pm

Yes Nightterror, I want the edit function back so that I can revise my posts to make people look like racists. Unfortunately, my nefarious plot was derailed by your extraordinary sense of deductive acumen. Bravo sir!

Does that satisfy this fatuous urge of yours to grind some axe with my name on it?

Can we discuss the edit feature now?
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edit

Postby actiongrl » Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:19 pm

Emily says it's unlikely my edit function can be turned off separately.

I thought some more after my slightly self-righteous post the other night. I should be able to resist using a tool unless it's for an admin purpose. I'm a big girl.

I'm not alone in the need to find a balance between being a user here, at least enough to understand the contexts of things and the culture that exists, and being an administrator or moderator. I don't get paid to sit here during the day though and chat about my life, either. But at any rate, for now, if I'm home in the evening sipping a drink in the bar and I dangle a participle, I won't use edit.
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Postby Nightterror » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:02 am

Don Muerto wrote:Yes Nightterror, I want the edit function back so that I can revise my posts to make people look like racists. Unfortunately, my nefarious plot was derailed by your extraordinary sense of deductive acumen. Bravo sir!

Does that satisfy this fatuous urge of yours to grind some axe with my name on it?

Can we discuss the edit feature now?


Do you have any idea how great it feels to have my faruous urges satisfied? How arrogant of you to think that this is personal in any way.

You demand examples as opposed to emotion. I was merely providing an example supporting the dangers of and edit button.
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Postby Tancorix » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:21 am

Pot meet kettle...this should get a laugh as I was guilty of it. But could we get back on topic here and take the personal drama elsewhere? As I was reminded yesterday this thread is about the ePlaya's Edit functionality. The Empire Store is open, the TV doesn't work well so if you want to provide drama for the locals to watch instead take it over there.
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Postby Nightterror » Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:32 am

Ok!
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Postby Don Muerto » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:03 am

I was merely providing an example supporting the dangers of and edit button.


What dangers were you providing an example of? That I have a sarcastic and ironic sense of humor that sails over your head like a steroid driven Barry Bonds home-run? Nah. Not even you could possibly be so witless as to believe that post was serious, or that if I did plan to maliciously edit my posts that I would telegraph it in plain writing at the site where I intend to perpetrate the crime.

By giving your intelligence the benefit of the doubt, I am left with no other conclusion than that you have yet again focused on me rather than the issue and done yourself and the board a disservice. Whatever your personal issue is, I would appreciate you taking it to PM or dropping it altogether.

You still have shown nothing quantitative to bolster your view that edit is a problem. Why don't you focus your energy on that?
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Postby Nightterror » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:23 am

Ok dear Don you are right. It is pretty degrading being outwitted by a Penis wearing a Sombrero.

I will leave the edit decision to the rest of you as I now take my leave.
Thank you and have a nice day.
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Postby Don Muerto » Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:31 am

It is pretty degrading being outwitted by a Penis wearing a Sombrero


I bet.
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The Theory of Gravity

Postby Captain Fuckwit » Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:46 am

Having no Edit button is stupid.

To say otherwise would be to point out that the Theory of Gravity is only a theory.
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Postby spectabillis » Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:49 am

This has certainly degraded past being useful.

I wonder if things should have been locked, posts deleted, or what? I left a few comments to try to keep things on track but obviously that did not do much. I dont really want to be some sort of moderating parental guide, but this is getting absurd.

Unless the discussion cannot return so some semblance of civility and stay on the Edit Discussion, there is no use in keeping this open.
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Postby Tancorix » Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:56 am

spectabillis wrote:This has certainly degraded past being useful.

Unless the discussion cannot return so some semblance of civility and stay on the Edit Discussion, there is no use in keeping this open.


I disagree that the topic has moved beyond control. In fact except for Don's reaction the board hasn't had a chance to really respond and make it clear that such behavior is unacceptable. Don't lock the thread down for a bit, give the rest of us a chance to work on some posting behavior modification before you take that step.

Heck for all we know they might not realize that those posts crossed any lines at all. Give them the benefit of the doubt until we know otherwise, then lay the smack down and/or lock the threads if that fails.
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Postby Nightterror » Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:07 am

Good morning

I apologize to anyone that has been offended by my opinions or the way I express them.

I have nothing more to add to this topic.

Have a nice day
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Postby Don Muerto » Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:19 am

Spect, I think you are being oversensitive. This is not even smoldering, much less a flame-war, and even through the most elevated pulse posts of yesterday the topic is mostly on track. Fuckwit notwithstanding, this discussion has been spirited but mostly civil. Leave the topic open or you risk losing voices that haven't chimed in.

NT, I accept your apology, and offer mine in return if I offended you. My sincere desire throughout this thread was to hear you articulate your point of view further and provide examples in the interests of discussing this issue to the fullest extent possible. Almost, nobody else was stepping up to the plate, and you became the de facto defender of a point of view.

It's pretty obvious that I have rubbed you the wrong way from the word "go," but I want you to know that I absolutely don't have a problem with you disagreeing with me, I just want you to focus on the argument rather than my personality. I hope that puts us at "Cool."

Cool?
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Postby Nightterror » Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:38 am

Cool!
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Postby Badger » Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:34 am

Nightterror = AForceforGood?
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Postby Badger » Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:35 am

If I had an edit button I'd have added 'just curious' at the end of that last post.
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Postby Nightterror » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:04 am

Badger wrote:Nightterror = AForceforGood?



Nope - I am Autonomous
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Postby Tancorix » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:11 am

This message quotes a user on your ignore list. View topic with ignored data?


NT, I was kinda wondering about that myself. Thanks for clearing it up.
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Postby Don Muerto » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:47 am

This message quotes a user on your ignore list. View topic with ignored data?


Now that's funny!
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Postby Badger » Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:49 am

Now that's funny!


Don, please pass me the Monitor Clean(TM).
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Closed vs Open Society and the Edit button

Postby Captain Fuckwit » Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:09 pm

actiongrl wrote:Ultimately a decision like that [a prohibition of the Edit button] does rest with the group who administrate and own it - those who created the board, those who are responsible for its maintenance, those who volunteer to implement its goals by their efforts.

Essentially, this statement (up-thread) is asserting the existence of the BMORG-Volunteer Eplaya Oligarchy. Regardless of what the people of the "community" want, the ultimate interest of an oligarch lies in the maintenance of the established order. Unfortunately, if the Eplaya Admin team strictly follow the needs of the Oligarchy, our community will experience those kind of results one usually finds over time under the rule of an oligarchy- namely, obligatory participation in the Oligarch's choice, a lack of innovation and creativity, a supression of the human spirit and a morass of dumbness.

In regards to whether or not to entitle users with the Edit button - either timed or open-ended - the question is easiest to answer if we consider the paradigm of a closed society versus the paradigm of an open society. A closed society offers more ideological purity but at the expense of progress. An open socity offers more progress but at the expense of creating the potential for abuse against the state.

There's no pressing need for specific citations on how the Edit button has been abused. Future abuse of the Edit button is guaranteed ("The pump don't work 'cause the vandals stole the handle"- Bob Dylan). However the instance of future abuse will probably be insignifigant against the overall measure of progress and freedom that Eplayans (as Westerners) want to experience.

If the maintenance of this Oligarchy depends on enticing the participation of a population whose people (Westerners) are already accustomed to the inalienable entitlements to assemble, to worship, to speak, to print and to petition for change, then this Oligarchy would best be served by understanding that the consensus of the people will probably include disappointment and frustration at the encumbrances of no working Edit button and de facto censorship. This disappointment and frustration will hamper the endeavor toward creating a good and well-rounded community on Eplaya.

Sincerely yours,
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Postby spectabillis » Tue Apr 05, 2005 7:59 pm

Edit is going to be implemented, probably with a time expiry.
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Postby Badger » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:08 pm

C+/B- (close call) on the dialectical argument there Capt. Fuckwit. Were you thumbing through Hegel?
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Postby Captain Fuckwit » Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:19 am

Badger wrote:C+/B- (close call) on the dialectical argument there Capt. Fuckwit. Were you thumbing through Hegel?

No, I was merely making my original argument seem much more affordable-
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Apr 06, 2005 9:38 am

Badger wrote:C+/B- (close call) on the dialectical argument there Capt. Fuckwit. Were you thumbing through Hegel?
Mighe explain why I found it unreadable.
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Postby Don Muerto » Wed Apr 06, 2005 11:08 pm

I want what he's smokin.
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