Burning Man-- Change the dates? Or not?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Would changing the dates make your life easier?

No thank you, don't change anything.
61
51%
I am a student and BM falls on the first week or two of school.
8
7%
I am a teacher/professor/educator and BM falls on the first week or two of school.
12
10%
I am a parent of a school aged child and BM falls on the first week or two of school.
12
10%
My partner is a student or educator, and the current dates make it difficult for us to attend BM.
7
6%
I would like the dates changed for other reasons.
20
17%
 
Total votes : 120

Postby Kinetic » Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:40 pm

chickenfish wrote:How about attending one of the regional burns instead? Burning Flipside is in may, burning bush and fourth of juplaya are in july...There are many events that capture the spirit of burning man, albeit at a different level of intensity. I personally had a better time at burning bush this year than I did at Burning Man. Or better yet, start your own festival with a date that fits your schedule! The Week before BM is the mutant fest in Oregon...


I'm going to try to go to Burning Flipside but I go to BM for many reasons. The trip itself counts for one...a nice 3600 mile odyssey that I look forward to in it's own right. Then there's the intensity, the sheer number of people, and the Black Rock Desert itself. The trip to BM tests me and does as much to add to the experience and character building as the stay in BRC. Like this year, I rode out the Sunday dust storm... now I know what the long time burners are talking about. If you had already left, you don't know. I'll try the regionals and hope to someday soon host one of my own in the Missouri Ozarks. But until then, I'll gladly make my trip to BRC.

And on the scheduling, I want to go back to school and this is going to hit home for me. I doubt it changes but I'm still firing off my suggestion to the ORG and asking anyway. Sometimes you get lucky, most times you don't. We'll see.
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Postby RebA! » Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:46 pm

What i am waiting for is some whiner to complain so much about how the date interferes with something or other that he sues the org.. that its "HIS/her right to go and if they dont fix it for these reasons, then voila"

Come on now.. i know you can picture it. With all the other stupid suits in the USA ya gotta know something like this coming.
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Postby Stormy » Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:14 pm

stuart scanlon wrote:this poll reads to my eyes

don't change it
change it cuz of school conflict
change it cuz of school conflict
change it cuz of school conflict
change it cuz of school conflict
change it for another reason


not exactly unbiased
reminds me of those specious political polls


I find the use of cuz a bit specious myself. :wink:

Try looking at it another way, I could have posted 2 choices, change it or don't change it. However, there has been debate over how many people are effected and what demographics they're in. The polling software here isn't all that sophisticated, so the format I used was the best way to get the info I wanted. Nothing sneaky here. Though you may believe that the CIA was involved in Kennedy's assassination, too. :)
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Postby Stormy » Tue Sep 23, 2003 7:29 pm

chickenfish wrote:How about attending one of the regional burns instead? Burning Flipside is in may, burning bush and fourth of juplaya are in july...There are many events that capture the spirit of burning man, albeit at a different level of intensity. I personally had a better time at burning bush this year than I did at Burning Man. Or better yet, start your own festival with a date that fits your schedule! The Week before BM is the mutant fest in Oregon...


Oh, I've definitely thought about it and have enjoyed some of the Gigsville burns. Part of my personal situation is that my spouse is extremely anamoured of Burning Man and doesn't get to be anywhere near as creative in his regular life. I've tried to encourage him to seek the things he loves outside of Burning Man. While I can encourage, I can't force another person into that process any faster than they want to go through it. So if I didn't go to Burning Man, he'd take his two weeks of vacation there, and I wouldn't get to see him, call him or email him during that time. We are already on completely opposite work schedules and only have one day a week that we both aren't working. I'm also just in the process of getting to know people down here, as being with him was the only reason why I would ever consider leaving SF. Any suggestions? Anyone?

The other side of the coin is that educators would make great Burners. They have most of the summer off so they could do volunteer work at the regional offices or go early and help build the city. Teachers are generally super creative people who have to make something out of nothing. I mean who else can make art out of toilet paper roll centers or Pringles cans? They tend to be some of the best recyclers I know. Scrap in SF was designed for artists and teachers. Hmm, what else? Educators tend to be very organized and superb mediators. Who would make a better ranger than someone who deals daily with petty disputes, fights and excuses for bad behavior? And finally, any good teacher does the work of 2+ people in the corporate world.
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Flushing Out My Head

Postby Hoopes » Tue Sep 23, 2003 8:35 pm

Burning Man always falls during the second week of Fall semester classes, which means I need to miss a day or two of teaching in order to attend. However, the experience provides a welcome and refreshing re-orientation to the new school year. I never tell students where I'm going since I enjoy the responses I get from the ones who somehow discover what I was actually up to on those days they watched videos!
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your slip is showing

Postby Liverace » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:41 pm

And finally, any good teacher does the work of 2+ people in the corporate world.


Haven't spent much time in the corporate world, have ya? I should be so lucky as to have one of your imaginary corporate jobs that are only half as strenuous teaching school for a whole 9 months a year.
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Postby Lydia Love » Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:44 pm

So Liverace - have you taught?

to be fair I haven't and I'm a poor corporate lackey at best.
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Re: your slip is showing

Postby Stormy » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:00 pm

Liverace wrote:
And finally, any good teacher does the work of 2+ people in the corporate world.


Haven't spent much time in the corporate world, have ya? I should be so lucky as to have one of your imaginary corporate jobs that are only half as strenuous teaching school for a whole 9 months a year.


Actually, I have. My last job was the Assistant Manager of a big name mortgage lender. I used to work about 55 hours a week, plus commute time. Even though I was no slacker, I wore high heels everyday, something that I'd never do as a teacher.

As a teacher, I have 9 weeks of summer vacation. During this time, one week is spent cleaning up my room and packing things away. About two weeks before school starts, I get my classroom prepped. I have about 6 weeks to travel or take graduate courses for professional development.

During the school year, every minute of the school day is engaged with 20 or more students who are all in need of my attention for academic or emotional reasons. When I used to do yard duty, or when something "comes up," I often don't get to use the bathroom. In the corporate world I would have at least a couple of assistants to help me do the work I do. I have friends who are engineers, programmer, tech support, etc. and they actually have time to check their email and some even post to boards at work. After the kiddies leave, I have hours of prep work to do and everything takes longer because our office equipment keeps breaking down.

Sorry to be longwinded, but I know what I'm talking about as I've worked in healthcare and finance before going into teaching, and I've been teaching for 7 years.
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Postby Don Muerto » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:35 pm

As a parent, Burningman falls right on top of the first week of school. Couldn't be worse. However, I blame the school district for beginning the school year the week before Labor Day. To me that is just arbitrary and stupid, but beyond my control.

I also had a friend that had to wait until Wednesday to come up this year so that she could attend the first session of a class she was waitlisted for and must complete in order to graduate.

Basically, it seems that BM's timing generates a large school conflict, but beyond that only specific, personal conflicts of schedule. One year it did keep me from attending the NAOCDC (National Association of Obsessive Compulsive Doorknob Chewers) convention, but I can't see that being a large issue in the BM community.
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Re: your slip is showing

Postby Kinetic » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:37 pm

Stormy wrote:
Liverace wrote:
Even though I was no slacker, I wore high heels everyday, something that I'd never do as a teacher.

During the school year, every minute of the school day is engaged with 20 or more students who are all in need of my attention for academic or emotional reasons. When I used to do yard duty, or when something "comes up," I often don't get to use the bathroom. In the corporate world I would have at least a couple of assistants to help me do the work I do. I have friends who are engineers, programmer, tech support, etc. and they actually have time to check their email and some even post to boards at work. After the kiddies leave, I have hours of prep work to do and everything takes longer because our office equipment keeps breaking down.

Sorry to be longwinded, but I know what I'm talking about as I've worked in healthcare and finance before going into teaching, and I've been teaching for 7 years.


One of my ex-girlfriends was a teacher and my current g/f was a teacher. Both of them quit because of what Stormy posted. Teaching sucks and is one of the most overworked and underappreciated jobs out there. I'm basing that on direct observation as I've graded a lot of papers and helped out with many things for the ex, and my current g/f left because the administration had a discipline policy that looked like swiss cheese.

I had to chime in...anyone that thinks teaching is easy has no clue.
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Postby Ranger Mickey » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:05 pm

<OLD FART ACCENT>
Well, kids, when I was a boy school started the Monday after Labor Day! What is this crap I see now-a-days, where kids are in school in the freakin' middle of August? Right un-American, I tell you. Grrrr.
</OLD FART ACCENT>
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Postby actiongrl » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:16 pm

I'd really love to be able to see educators and school-age kids be able to go more readily. But..um...can you say "CAMP GAMMA DELTA PHI"?

I fear the college student onslaught. Right now, a wily student can sweet talk his or her way into the classes she needs and still miss that first few days of class (I know plenty who do it, by hook or by crook.) But you have to really WANT it.

If it were actually temporally easy for students to attend...I would imagine our population would be considerably higher and more skewed to the frat boy set.

I could be wrong.
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Postby Don Muerto » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:21 pm

I agree with you generally. This year my friend was waitlisted for the one section of the one class she needs to graduate. If you aren't there for the first day of a class you aren't even in... :)
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Postby Stormy » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:05 am

Ranger Mickey wrote:<OLD FART ACCENT>
Well, kids, when I was a boy school started the Monday after Labor Day! What is this crap I see now-a-days, where kids are in school in the freakin' middle of August? Right un-American, I tell you. Grrrr.
</OLD FART ACCENT>


LA starts the day after Labor Day. However they have mandatory staff meetings the week before. Two aren't absolutely necessary (well depends on the principal) but the one on Thursday is. Not reporting violates the contract. Contract violations can result in loss of job and credential. Imagine having your master's pulled from you for not reporting to a meeting. :(
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Postby JezebelinHell » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:13 am

Back when I was an art major getting time off for Burning Man was no problem. "Bring back pictures" was the response I generally got from my professors. I'm taking some time off school to save up funds at the moment, but when I go back it's gonna be to study forensic criminology, and I get the feeling it's gonna be much harder to talk my way out of the first week of classes when that happens. I could say I'm doing research I guess...
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Postby Ivy » Wed Sep 24, 2003 7:25 am

I have about 6 weeks to travel


Waaahh. Only 6 little weeks. :)

I get one. I go to BM.

Imagine having your master's pulled from you for not reporting to a meeting.

Pulling your master's is not the same as revoking your credential.
I would also like to note that not all LA school start the day after labor day. in fact, a great deal of school in the LAUSD are year round, which offers many opportunities to have, say. August and September off.


I've heard both sides of the arguement about teachers. I myself turned down a teaching job, not because of the work involved, but because of the bureaucrisy (sorry, i can never spell that word. Yet another reason for me not to be a teacher, i guess). My mother has taught in the LAUSD for 40 years. My father taught for about 1o years. My best friend is a teacher.
It is indeed one of the hardest jobs to do, but that doesn't mean that corporate or trade jobs are easy and we all have assistants to help us.

When I look at the arguement for Burning Man/changing the dates, alot of people in this thread are mentioning the "I'm a student" thing rather than the "I'm a teacher" thing. A student is a temporary position. You're in college 2-5 years. So you miss BM for a few years (or you choose, as some people have already pointed out, to take your chances on getting into class, which I totally agree with; in my experience it's been very easy). After you gradutate or drop out or whatever, you ain't a student no more. now go to BM. I do have far more sympathy for teachers in these instances in that a lot of them are held by contrat, but also all the teachers I know are able to get out of those days with valid excuses.
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Postby PJ » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:05 am

Stormy wrote:...educators would make great Burners...Teachers are generally super creative people who have to make something out of nothing...any good teacher does the work of 2+ people in the corporate world.


In my experience what you're saying mostly applies to young teachers that are not yet burned out by indifferent-to-hostile students, or co-opted by the union, or crushed by bureaucracy. After awhile the majority of public school teachers tend to stick around only because they won't get a pension unless they do. At which time they're only in it for the money, by definition. The system should be set up so that people don't have an incentive to continue teaching long after their passion has disappeared.
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Postby PJ » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:11 am

Imagine having your master's pulled from you for not reporting to a meeting.


If it's a Masters in Education, it's a worthless, easily-earned piece of wastepaper, good only for milking extra pay from the local public school administration.

Real Masters degrees are in the sciences and are a shitload of work that the vast majority of people can never attain. If you can get the same pay as someone with a Masters in mathematics or chemistry for going to five weeks of summer school and writing a silly "thesis" on classroom behaviors you've witnessed, why not? If you have no integrity or scholarly ambition, I mean.
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Postby Guest » Wed Sep 24, 2003 9:37 am

That's cold, PJ. You ever teach 30+ screaming kids?
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Postby PJ » Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:36 am

karmic marshmellow wrote:You ever teach 30+ screaming kids?


Yes, actually. I'm not saying it's easy or unimportant--just the opposite. I'd rather it were done by people that do it out of love and not because of the great health and retirement plans and the summer vacation. Which, of necessity, means that it shouldn't be a lifetime career--instead it should be something easily walked away from when it starts to suck. Which for almost all practitioners, it will.
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Postby TestesInSac » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:06 pm

Just for clarity's sake, a Masters of Arts or of Sciences, once conferred, can only be revoked if it can be proven that you cheated in getting it, AFAIK.
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Postby glam_daddy » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:23 pm

Its interesting to note that if you add up all the 'change the date' votes and then compare them to the 'no date change' votes, it is almost dead even.

Now concidering that all the 'no change' people could probably make the new date (if they changed it) as well, then why not change the date? You would be making it easyer for about half the people attending....

Just a thought
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Postby Ivy » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:27 pm

You would be making it easyer


And to make it easier for me, let's have it in LA.

And make sure to put those dumpsters out on the corner...
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Postby glam_daddy » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:35 pm

And to make it easier for me, let's have it in LA.


making it easyer for 1 person and making it easyer for 15,000 people are different. I was just making a point. simma down na.
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Postby Ivy » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:38 pm

You said it would make it eaiser for about half the attendess. I was merely representing (although extremely to make a point) the other half.
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Postby glam_daddy » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:42 pm

The other half live in LA?

hehehe

Ok so if half attendees would like the change that half has constrictions. If the other half is more of a 'heck it never bothered me' kinda situation then they have no constrictions and could make any new dates (i know im being general here..)

so it would make sense to change the date since then at that point 100% of attendees would have no constriction?

following me?

Just thinking out loud here....

:-)
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Postby Ivy » Wed Sep 24, 2003 12:55 pm

If the other half is more of a 'heck it never bothered me' kinda situation then they have no constrictions and could make any new dates (i know im being general here..)


Oh, I totally follow you.

Problem is, you're making a big leap with that "if."
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Postby Chai Guy » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:06 pm

I think we are trying to change the wrong thing here. I mean the whole summer vacation thing was set up to serve the needs of our agrarian society (let the kids out of school to harvest the crops). Our society has changed but we have kept the system out of habit. Most kids in California have to go back to school during our hottest month of the year (September), usually in classrooms without airconditioning. We should really try to get the schools to start in October (the Real Fall in the Western States).
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Postby stuart » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:53 pm

Its interesting to note that if you add up all the 'change the date' votes and then compare them to the 'no date change' votes, it is almost dead even.

Now concidering that all the 'no change' people could probably make the new date (if they changed it) as well, then why not change the date? You would be making it easyer for about half the people attending....


please see my above post about the nature of this poll. It might invalidate you conclusion.

1 response for 'don't change it'. Now, compare that to the number of possible responses for school conflict. Take into account also that these responses for school conflict allow for you to register a vote for change on someone elses behalf 'my sig other has a school conflict' and you get some whacky results.

will changing the date help you?
will changing the date hurt you?
do you give a shit?

would work better for the conclusion that you want to draw.

all the above aside, stormy repsonded to my post and clarified that she was simply trying to answer her own quiestions about school conflict.

as far as half the people coming from L.A.. this is certainly not the case now, but if you moved the event to say, east of san diego, I am sure the portion of socal to nocal attendees would change quite a bit.
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Postby precipitate » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:58 pm

> making it easyer [sic] for 1 person and making it easyer for 15,000
> people are different.

Taking the results of this poll and extrapolating it to the entire Burning Man
population is bunk. 71 people voted. That's 0.2% of the population. Try
again.
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