can playa life positivley affect our world?

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can playa life positivley affect our world?

Postby pan handle » Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:22 am

i hope that burners learn to be efficient with their resources through necessity on the playa and then return home to use that knowledge to improve their lives. i shower with 3 quarts of water and grow my own food on the playa. i try not to bring much more than i need to the playa, and learn so much about luxury versus necessity.
do i need this house in the hills? the central air, the fat cables leading to the nuclear power plant? wouldn,t many people on this planet feel blessed to have my garage to live in, while i fill it with shit i will never use?
i have no electricity on the playa, and life is fine. i don,t need a computer, and if i only use it to send inconsequential e mails or creatively masturbate with silly ideas, what need does it fulfill? the internet is an amazing way to communicate ideas with people all over the planet, and we search for porn.
the last time i felt like this, i went to live on the beach in a tropical country. i spent years cooking with fire in a little pit, following the natural rhythm of the sun and moon, enhanced by the occasional candle. i used a sailboat, rode bicycles, and ate a lot of fruit growing wild in the area. in other words, i was a monkey {with running water and a wood burning hot tub} as people showed up, cut down all the trees, took sand from the beach to make cement, and brought electricity and it,s attendent appliances, life changed in my little pueblo. the kids started having attitude that they learned from tv, and drugs became a problem as well as theft. innocence is lost there, so i came back to america. i was amazed at how interesting technology became to me, and how luxuries were so magical. for a week or so, and then i resumed taking everything for granted again. i am jaded and cynical, although i do my best to hide it as befits a good burner. i just wonder if this is a superficial thing we do in the desert or if it can really change the world. am i insane to think that we can change the world from the playa, or from anywhere? is everything just fine the way it is, or should we interfere? i really don,t like nuclear energy, but my attitude may change if i have real proof that reincarnation is not a possibility. whether i am kidding or not makes no difference, because there are many people who think like that. my illusion that burners are people of higher consciousness gives me hope, but i would love to hear that it is not just an illusion, and many of us are willing to reduce our personal squandering of this planet,s resources for the sake of our species, if nothing else. i do love you all regardless.
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Postby Booker » Mon Sep 15, 2003 8:28 am

This is looking like one of those tarbaby threads, but your intention seems earnest, so I'll respond.

Your story suggests that you're willing to walk the talk about doing without the benefits of all the products that generate the waste you abhor. Good on ya. You get megapoints for bypassing the hypocracy inherent in a lot of the sky-is-falling diatribes on the subject.

Still, you're making a lot of assumptions about what's "positive" and what isn't. Are you that sure you know best? I'm thinking if you focus the personal integrity I see in your post on your own life, you'll be doing pretty damn well. Speak your piece, walk your talk, and live the life you think is right, while recognizing that others deserve the same chance and the same choices. Educating someone starts with respect for their capability and willingness to hear your message, as well as their right to their own authentic response to it. Ultimately, your own life is where your control starts and ends, and you're gonna hafta get used to that fact.

Namaste.
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Postby Badger » Mon Sep 15, 2003 8:55 am

Thank you for saying that Booker.

You rock.
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Re: can playa life positively affect our world?

Postby Tiara » Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:29 am

Overall, I find myself sympathetic to many of the points made in the original post in this thread. . . but I take exception to this particular bit:

[quote="pan handle"] if i only use [my computer] to send inconsequential e mails or creatively masturbate with silly ideas, what need does it fulfill?/quote]

"Creatively masturbating with silly ideas" could be a great theme for next year, or a summary of the event itself. To the extent that we can continue that process electronically all year, I'm all for it.

Some of those "silly ideas" get refined through trial and error on the playa into GREAT ideas, or, just as importantly, life changing experiences for those who created or witnessed the project/experiment/performance/whatever.

Seems to me, though, that the original poster was more concerned with concepts related to ecological footprints and the like. . . If Burning Man does nothing other than introduce 10,000 people per year to the concept of Leave No Trace (disregarding how successful they are at carrying it out), isn't there some value in it?

And I think that a lot of participants are very deeply committed to LNT, or at least minimizing their impact in everyday life.

For example: I obtained 3 55-gal water drums for our theme camp to use this year. Should I choose not to organize the theme camp next year, I envision using one as emergency water storage (I live in earthquake land) and trying to rig the other two to catch rainwater to use in my garden.
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Postby clandyone » Mon Sep 15, 2003 11:36 am

I'm sorry to be pedantic, but paragraph breaks are A Good Thing.
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Postby pan handle » Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:30 pm

booker, i meant to disclaim any judgement, and i have thought a lot about natural justice. for instance, where is the justice in children being born physically or emotionally challenged, or animals being mistreated and jailed for years until it is time to be slaughtered, having been denied the opportunity to just roam the planet and sniff around, find a mate, etc.
i don,t want to judge computer use either, but anticipating a machine that would put the whole world into instantaneous communication, i would expect something a little more earth shattering than porn to be it's main attraction. that is just a personal thing, and i have nothing against porn or any other form of expression.
to ease my mind on the justice thing, i decided that the factory farmed animals of today may be the factory farmers of yesterday reincarnated according to their karma. that thought eased my mind so i could move on, whether it is correct or not. i just search for soothing ointments to my mental dilemmas.
i have used a more conventional paragraph style, clandyone, although there are 4 distinct paragraphs in the first post, granted the 4th is kind of long. how did my misspelling of positively get past you, or my ridiculous punctuation? have i capitalized one Word? my english is attrocious. but i can spell rhythm. you try it.
tiara, i am trying to determine if there is some depth to the masturbation. i have a hard time reading between the lines, or i am not hip, or burned or whatever you may call it. depth may be the antithesis of what you search for on the playa, the computer or in life, and i honor that also. i don,t know what is good or bad, and recognize the right to yoiur lifestyle and philosophy based on the simple fact that you were born on this planet. i sense the necessity for contrast and the full spectrum of positive to negative. i like to exchange ideas with every type of being, so thank you all for taking the time. i find this more interesting than trying to find all possible and as many ways of using fuck in a sentence, but i,m weird like that.
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Postby pan handle » Mon Sep 15, 2003 1:41 pm

by the way, i don,t presume to be able to match wits with you guys, so go easy on me. i am a fool who has breathed way too much dust.
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Re: can playa life positivley affect our world?

Postby Tiara » Mon Sep 15, 2003 2:07 pm

pan handle wrote:i hope that burners learn to be efficient with their resources through necessity on the playa and then return home to use that knowledge to improve their lives. i shower with 3 quarts of water and grow my own food on the playa.


Pan Handle, I am interested in learning more about how/what food you grow on the playa.
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Postby pan handle » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:26 pm

tiara, you never cease to amaze me.

i soak seeds {lentils, whole peas, mung beans, the bigger ones work best in hot weather} for 8 hours and they are immediately and for a few days edible. i consider this to be the healthiest food available just about anywhere, very economical and pretty tasty by themselves, even better if you put some dressing on them.

remember to only soak them for 8 hours, then drain them and keep them moist, rinsing at least once a day.

i also question the sustainability of sprouting, since if everyone were to do it, where would we possibly get enough seeds. it is a survival skill that may come in handy, so learning it can,t hurt.

is that anti-climactic?
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Postby Tiara » Mon Sep 15, 2003 3:57 pm

Thanks for the info.

I'm quite interested in accumulating knowledge about all kinds of foods and recipes involving ingredients that don't require refrigeration.

This year we spend a lot of money on ice, and I spent a lot of time and energy monitoring coolers. In the end, some things still went bad.

Next year (and on trips with friends, or at regional events where ice isn't sold) I'd like to be less reliant on hauling tons of coolers and ice.

Also, I may be kinda yuppified on the outside (if you ignore the elwire addiction and fluoro-dinosaur outfits), but on the inside, I'm a big organic food nut.
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Lifestyle "Sacrifices"

Postby Peace_Tolero » Mon Sep 15, 2003 5:33 pm


In the past few years I have reduced my household electricity consumption from almost 75KWH/day to less than 17KWH/day and do not remember now what I used to do with all those electrons I was borrowing from the crude oil burning poluters across town. I also can't remember what the inside of a Wal-Mart looks like or pre-packaged food tastes like. And I don't feel like I have actually sacrificed anything.

I buy flesh from a meat market that sells free-range chickens and such as well as fresh produce grown locally when I can get it, or trucked in by the market owner's sons from across the state. Immokalee tomatos are in-between plantings right now so they go to Plant City. The Plant City tomatos cost about 10c a pound more. Still much tastier than those gassed-red flavorless globes trucked in by minimum-wage immigrants from NAFTA. Again, I don't see any sacrifice except a few extra stops when shopping.

I buy most everything else I "need" from thrift stores and haven't been inside a department store in at least two years. There are still two local family-owned lumber yards in town and several Mom-n-Pop hardware stores. Home Depot? What's that?

I plan to reduce my electron consumption further as time goes by and when I sell the property here and build somewhere in Northern Florida I'll go completely off-grid with a large cistern for water and septic for grey water and composring toilets. By then I'll probably see no noticable lifestyle sacrifice either.

I cherish my personal relationships more than ever and have a better relationship with my relatives now than I have ever had. I don't know what caused the transformation, but it's not been a sacrifice. I seem to have become a citizen and stopped being a 'consumer.'

I do periodically go to the"Thunderbird Swap Shop"foraging for "stuff" and Playa denizens, you would absolutely LOVE this place!

Is that what you were talking about?


Peace!

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Re: Lifestyle "Sacrifices"

Postby PJ » Mon Sep 15, 2003 6:01 pm

Peace_Tolero wrote:In the past few years I have reduced my household electricity consumption...and do not remember now what I used to do with all those electrons I was borrowing from the crude oil burning poluters across town.


You weren't borrowing them, you were buying and consuming them. There's no way to give back a watt-hour. However you could in theory generate and use (or sell) a watt-hour of your own.



Peace_Tolero wrote:...I plan to reduce my electron consumption further as time goes by and when I sell the property here and build somewhere in Northern Florida I'll go completely off-grid... I seem to have become a citizen and stopped being a 'consumer'...


I happen to like your course of action. However honesty requires the acknowledgement that, by building somewhere in Northern Florida you become a Developer, as you're removing some amount of irreplaceable land from nature. Unless you're reclaiming a toxic waste site or some such, it's a net loss for the environment. And that's not taking into account the materials that will have to be mined, grown, and/or milled to construct your home.

No matter how little we do, we're always consumers until we die. And even after that we continue to consume irreplaceable natural resources unless our bodies are left laying atop the soil where scavengers can make use of us. A cremation or burial is a net loss, as far as the planet is concerned.
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Re: Lifestyle "Sacrifices"

Postby Peace_Tolero » Mon Sep 15, 2003 7:19 pm

PJ wrote:
Peace_Tolero wrote:In the past few years I have reduced my household electricity consumption...and do not remember now what I used to do with all those electrons I was borrowing from the crude oil burning poluters across town.


You weren't borrowing them, you were buying and consuming them. There's no way to give back a watt-hour. However you could in theory generate and use (or sell) a watt-hour of your own.

Alternating Current means that the electrons come in and go back out. Back and forth, back and forth, alternating. Usually 60 times a second. So you never really consume the electrons, they just charge you every time the same electrons come in and then don't deduct when they go out. Then they charge you again when the electrons come back in. It would be much different if the power company was supplying DC. It's kind of an electrician inside joke about 'borrowing' or renting the electricity.

Oh, Too Bad we can't sell what we generate. In Florida, there is no net-metering. Thanks Jeb!

But that's OK. I plan to generate all the KWH I need.



Peace_Tolero wrote:...I plan to reduce my electron consumption further as time goes by and when I sell the property here and build somewhere in Northern Florida I'll go completely off-grid... I seem to have become a citizen and stopped being a 'consumer'...


I happen to like your course of action. However honesty requires the acknowledgement that, by building somewhere in Northern Florida you become a Developer, as you're removing some amount of irreplaceable land from nature. Unless you're reclaiming a toxic waste site or some such, it's a net loss for the environment. And that's not taking into account the materials that will have to be mined, grown, and/or milled to construct your home.

No matter how little we do, we're always consumers until we die. And even after that we continue to consume irreplaceable natural resources unless our bodies are left laying atop the soil where scavengers can make use of us. A cremation or burial is a net loss, as far as the planet is concerned.


Good Points

but I admit I'm selfish.

I'm getting ready to retire from the rat race and I can't imagine the cost of everything in another 20 years. So, I'm getting rid of as much waste in my life as I can. And the change in state of mind is a big part of not feeling the sacrifice. Perhaps it's really no sacrifice at all, just a shift in blessings.

As far as developing raw land, yes I am. I admit it and don't apologize. I've been living mostly in the city for too many years and I'm getting out of here. I now have the resources and I certainly don't want to move to some other developer's idea of life in the country.

The countryside up there is going to be built on soon anyway so I figured I'd develop a self-sustainable energy-efficient place for myself and save 15 or 20 acres from the chainsaw for another couple decades. Who knows, if things work out right I could sell that place in a couple years and do the same all over. No telling how many acres I could save from the chain saw if I put a covenant in the sale contract to save the woods.

Also, a base of operations closer to the rest of the country would be a blessing. It's a damn long drive just to get out of Florida from way down here in the toenail fungus of America. You can spend a whole day driving and still be in Florida. Sheesh!


And, who knows? In another 25 years, this place might be waterfront property. Skeptics of Global Warming should read this.


Peace!

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Re: Lifestyle "Sacrifices"

Postby nymphgonebad » Mon Sep 15, 2003 8:17 pm

Peace_Tolero wrote:Also, a base of operations closer to the rest of the country would be a blessing. It's a damn long drive just to get out of Florida from way down here in the toenail fungus of America. You can spend a whole day driving and still be in Florida. Sheesh!


And, who knows? In another 25 years, this place might be waterfront property. Skeptics of Global Warming should read this.


Peace!
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word - i'm a grits born and raised in s.florida. been on many appocalyptic road trips. almost as bad as texas ( shudder ).
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Postby precipitate » Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:54 pm

I'm sorry to be pedantic, but , <> '

On the other stuff, yeah, right track. Except for the part about you loving
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Postby Guest » Tue Sep 16, 2003 1:20 am

that was merely a way to say that i don,t judge you for your views, precipitate. you know i don,t really love you. you know you are not loveable. you know that love is not for wise asses. you are getting sleepy.
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It's TIME...

Postby infinitek » Tue Sep 16, 2003 4:35 am

"It's time to influence the very culture which [fellow burners] rebel against" Larry Harvey


I think playa life can drastically affect our world. It already is and has been since 86'.

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Postby Guest » Wed Sep 17, 2003 11:57 am

yes. i agree that this is a movement that can have profound effects on society. only if we realize the source and the motivation. what is the source and motivation again? i forgot.
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Postby clandyone » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:32 pm

Anonymous wrote:that was merely a way to say that i don,t judge you for your views, precipitate. you know i don,t really love you. you know you are not loveable.

I think she is, in a spiky kind of way.
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Postby blyslv » Wed Sep 17, 2003 1:39 pm

Oh the P? She's lovable, in a coolly competant sort of way.
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Change the World

Postby deeohgeeman » Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:01 pm

Read the book "Finite and Infinite Games" by James P Carse for ideas how your experience can change the world. It's short but filled with lots of philosophy about how you approach life creates the world you live in.

I think Burning Man will change the world, and hopefully the complaints registered here are only the jumping off point for people to institute that change within their own lives. I know that soon I will just ignore the Eplaya and go about my life as if the world is already the place I want it to be, and try to be an example, and teach when I can.

Oh the P? She's lovable, in a coolly competant sort of way.


Now you're just talking crazy. She's just plain loveable.
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Postby Ivy » Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:27 pm

I would just like to state here, for the record and the whole e-playa (or whoever ventures into this thread, anyway) to see:

I LOVE PRECIPITATE!!!

She is one of the coolest people I think I've ever met.

I would venture to say that we probably wouldn't make very good friends, and I don't think we'd get along all that well, but damn if I don't love that woman.
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Re: can playa life positivley affect our world?

Postby RealityEscapesYou » Wed Sep 17, 2003 4:51 pm

My answer is NO. A million times no. Yes it's just an illusion or maybe just a bad dream.

What I find so funny is how some burners proclaim the "evil" of multinational companies/corps, because they profit and sometimes they do it at all costs...profit that is.

Yet, say something about BMORG or deconstruct burning man and you will see people defend the brand (burning man) like it was a micky dee's big mak vs. the wh0pp-ER contest. The names start to fly. Whiners. Frat-boys. People who don't Get it. Yadda Yah. Yadda Eh.

It's a business. Their job is to profit. Like duh. Now given that it's an institution decisions flow top-down. why on earth would people think they are radically expressing themselves (as participants or spectators) and not acting out a script within this structure?

Ho Hum. I need Rum. I gotta Cup. GImme Some.

REY! :lol: :o :lol: :o :lol: :o :lol: :o
:?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?: :?:
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There is no such thing as radical self expression within an institution. Deal.
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Postby Lydia Love » Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:59 pm

Hey can I look at your script? I need to know which scene is next...
It's all about the squirrels.
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Postby Kinetic » Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:38 pm

Precipitate already has a boyfriend from what I gather but that still doesn't keep me from having a serious crush on her. Intellect, looks, a little bit of attitude....I don't always agree with her and sometimes I cringe when she replies to a post of mine, but she's one of the wild cards that makes e-playa a place I love to be. And then there's the t-shirt picture and the Gigsville trading card that floor me everytime I look.

If anyone has those pictures they could post...I mean the ass pix have made it over here, why not some beautiful pix to balance it out?
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Postby Bob » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:25 pm

> can playa life positivley affect our world?

No.

It's not negativland neither.

Do you fucking people know what our fuel budget is?
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Postby Badger » Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:28 pm

Bigger than a bread basket?
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Postby Skyhawk » Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:11 am

hey! whats wrong with texas? ok, ok, we're sorry about Dubya, but you cant blame him on texas alone..

over-sensitively yours,
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Postby JonoVision » Tue Sep 23, 2003 3:29 pm

Skyhawk wrote:hey! whats wrong with texas? ok, ok, we're sorry about Dubya, but you cant blame him on texas alone..


Was that for me? I've bagged on Texas a few times lately, intending to be good-natured about it though. Coming back after a 7yr absence has reminded me that I had more good friends when I leved here than any of the other myriad places I've lived in. But I must say, I'm finding it's entirely possible to love most Texans, but not Texas itself.
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Postby Guest » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:56 am

Sadly, I've lost that burnin' feeling. I didn't mean to let it slip away, but these last couple days I'm feeling cranky and selfish and very non-burny. :-(

I guess it'll come back around June, when I start getting excited about '04. See y'all then I guess...
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