Sound Issues with Outpost 23 AKA the Afterparty

Postby Player » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:29 am

Just some points of information.

Velvatina wrote: "They were only doing what they posted in the book that they would do"

The "book" does not give them the right to assault with sound. Period.

Velvetina wrote: "Which as you can see is only 3 hours long. Is that such rough torture that one camp can not have a 3 hour party with out being totally victimized as bad camp."

You're kidding, right? That's 4AM to 7AM - the best and only time for normal people to sleep in BRC is after the noise and before the heat. And they went longer than 7AM because Outpost 23 are liars. They lied about their wattage and they lied about their hours. We considered keeping their hours, but I'm glad we didn't try that because they lied lied lied.

Velvetina wrote: "We have no hood in the desert, we complete each other as a family, thats the Burning Man I walked into in 1999, I would hope that people can over come the past and welcome the future with open arms and recreate our lovley city once again, to share a nice talk and a drink with our neighbor."

I agree. But, in my estimation, the community is different now. I see the change illustrated so well with Outpost 23.

Kinetic IV wrote:
"Earplugs are cheap.

"There is walk-in camping for those who want solitude.

"If you camp in a theme camp and are up close to the Esplanade extra noise is the price you pay for that access. You can't have the prominent location without dealing with some of the drawbacks......
<snip>
.......But in BRC I come back to the cardinal rule: don't fuck up someone else's experience. So rather than complain I looked into better earplugs, noise cancelling devices, white noise generators, etc and decided to let my tendency to tinker with things loose to find a solution to the problem."

Get real. The plugs didn't work. (I had about 10 pair with me.) You should be able to camp in the back of any camp and not expect to be blasted at 4am. Why do you place the burden of the "cardinal rule" on the person who is being violated? The not-fucking-up-someone-else's-experience ethic begins with not fucking up someone else's experience. I begged, Sassy tried reasoning, we moved. Don't pretend that I may have had ANYTHING to do with fucking ANYONE'S experience when Outpost 23 flagrantly did so to me.

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Postby HughMungus » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:12 am

spectabillis wrote:
HughMungus wrote:You wanted quiet on Anxious?


any special reason why not? esplanade, yeah i can see that being dominant with the sound camps, but unless there was some sort of official zoning for them on anxious... ?


Maybe I'm in the minority but I think there's this sort of understanding that the closer you are to the Esplenade, the louder things will be. That's why people CHOOSE to camp way out on F, G and H (it ain't because we're anti-social or because we like walking farther than you do) and get pissed off when loud people camp on F, G, and H.

Oh let me add something tho (doh!).

If some camp *is* violating the rules set for their neighborhood in terms of sound (allowed wattage, as someone said) then yeah, that is a problem. If you ask them to respect the limits that they agreed to and they are clearly in the wrong (in terms of where they are and what's allowed there) then you're wrong.

Whoever said, "I slept right next to the speakers" -- hey it's easy to go to sleep to music you like and have some control over. It's not so easy to go to sleep to music you dislike or are indifferent about and have no control over.
It's what you make it.
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Postby southcoaster » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:45 am

spectabillis wrote:
HughMungus wrote:You wanted quiet on Anxious?


any special reason why not? esplanade, yeah i can see that being dominant with the sound camps, but unless there was some sort of official zoning for them on anxious... ?


10 o'clock, 2 o'clock and the esplanade are not big enough to get "every system with more than 300 watts of power" a space. besides, a 300 watt system does not a themecamp make, and should such prime real estate be reserved for camps offering more than just a dancefloor? (or at least a big ass dancefloor with a nice dj booth, projecting, whatever else....)

if you're camping toward esplanade or toward 10 and 2 you have to assume that some other people are camping there because they *cant* camp anywhere else (further toward 6:00 only bring more problems and as i mentioned before space on 10, 2 and the E is limited and restricted).

I'm a pretty heavy sleeper and in addition to that, i like to sleep in the day when at burning man (helps beat the heat a bit and keeps me charged so i can dance to loud-ass psytrance all night... ok that was a joke...). even so, if i have trouble sleeping somewhere, i get my ass up and go sleep somewhere else. it's not hard. it's black rock city. plenty of couches and beanbags and domes to go sleep on/in.

sounds like you guys shoulda been out on G or H and not A. you cant live next to the party and expect to have the benefits of not living next to the party....
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Postby southcoaster » Wed Sep 27, 2006 6:58 am

Player wrote:Just some points of information.

Velvatina wrote: "They were only doing what they posted in the book that they would do"

The "book" does not give them the right to assault with sound. Period.


no, it doesnt give any rights at all. it does however advertise the intentions of the camps that register with it. intentions such as "we play loud psytrance from 4am-7am"

Velvetina wrote: "Which as you can see is only 3 hours long. Is that such rough torture that one camp can not have a 3 hour party with out being totally victimized as bad camp."

You're kidding, right? That's 4AM to 7AM - the best and only time for normal people to sleep in BRC is after the noise and before the heat. And they went longer than 7AM because Outpost 23 are liars. They lied about their wattage and they lied about their hours. We considered keeping their hours, but I'm glad we didn't try that because they lied lied lied.


oh shit i'm sorry. i didnt realize you were "normal people".

wtf are you doing in Black Rock if you're "normal people", and what is the point of waking up for the heat of the day? why not find somewhere shady to nap during that heat, which is so oppressive to walk around in anyway?

also calling people liars doesnt help anything now does it? will you get more sleep next year if you convice people O23 is full of liars? nope.

Velvetina wrote: "We have no hood in the desert, we complete each other as a family, thats the Burning Man I walked into in 1999, I would hope that people can over come the past and welcome the future with open arms and recreate our lovley city once again, to share a nice talk and a drink with our neighbor."

I agree. But, in my estimation, the community is different now. I see the change illustrated so well with Outpost 23.

Kinetic IV wrote:
"Earplugs are cheap.

"There is walk-in camping for those who want solitude.

"If you camp in a theme camp and are up close to the Esplanade extra noise is the price you pay for that access. You can't have the prominent location without dealing with some of the drawbacks......
<snip>
.......But in BRC I come back to the cardinal rule: don't fuck up someone else's experience. So rather than complain I looked into better earplugs, noise cancelling devices, white noise generators, etc and decided to let my tendency to tinker with things loose to find a solution to the problem."

Get real. The plugs didn't work. (I had about 10 pair with me.) You should be able to camp in the back of any camp and not expect to be blasted at 4am. Why do you place the burden of the "cardinal rule" on the person who is being violated? The not-fucking-up-someone-else's-experience ethic begins with not fucking up someone else's experience. I begged, Sassy tried reasoning, we moved. Don't pretend that I may have had ANYTHING to do with fucking ANYONE'S experience when Outpost 23 flagrantly did so to me.


so basically you're saying that you should be able to camp next to a sound camp, and still get your sleep from 4am - whatever.

surely you dont mean to say that sound camps should not operate at this time of day? that would kill a massive amount of the nightlife of BRC, something many many people cherish. what you are asking for is quite frankly 1) not going to happen, people like to party at night and 2) selfish. talk about "fucking up other people experience", asking a camp that has already planned to be an "after hours" sound camp, and advertized these plans, to simply scrap their plans in favor of... what, not being an after hours sound camp? come on man.

how did you end up camped next to these people? surely you went and talked to your neighbours first right? i mean like before you even set up a tent, or start unpacking the water, or anything else..... you have to go talk to your neighbours. i understand these might not have been your immediate neighbours, but still, it's good to be aware of what's around you. perhaps moving wouldnt have been such a chore if you'd never set up there in the first place...
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Sep 27, 2006 7:39 am

Hushvill your ass, This year they moved moved hush and placed a kids rave camp within a block. This camp was supposed to have short hours. They turned there base drum on and let it run 24. I asked ranger if they could shut it down for a few hours. I was told: "To bad about you" SO... bringing my bullhorn and aircraft ear covers in 07. The feed back of that will make your pants wet. WHAT????... Yes bring yours too......
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Postby Kinetic IV » Wed Sep 27, 2006 8:11 am

Jesus. F. Christ in a fucking chicken basket....
We're only talking one week on the playa.
Earplugs are cheap and do work for some people.
White noise generators or bringing your own music and falling asleep with your headphones on also works.

If all of that fails you try the diplomatic route. If that doesn't work you bring in the Rangers. If that doesn't work then you move...unless you're in a theme camp then you scrounge up all the sound generating things you can and you fire back...it could be 15 car stereos blasting out BMIR, it could be everyone makes a new placement spot for the generators...you kick off the eco-throttles and run them wide open with the exhaust pointing at the offending camp. You don't need wire cutters or that kind of vigilante justice...just use what you got...even if it means everyone in camp hitting their car horns every hour on the hour....there's a lot of creative ways to force groups to compromise. And again it's for a fucking week in an experiment in temporary community. What's it going to be...more people bitching or more people experimenting with fixes?
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Postby lomaxfrog » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:23 am

[quote="southcoaster"][quote="spectabillis"][quote="HughMungus"]You wanted quiet on Anxious?[/quote]

any special reason why not? esplanade, yeah i can see that being dominant with the sound camps, but unless there was some sort of official zoning for them on anxious... ?[/quote]

10 o'clock, 2 o'clock and the esplanade are not big enough to get "every system with more than 300 watts of power" a space. besides, a 300 watt system does not a themecamp make, and should such prime real estate be reserved for camps offering more than just a dancefloor? (or at least a big ass dancefloor with a nice dj booth, projecting, whatever else....)

Actually, there is enough space at 2:00 and 10:00 for everyone.
We even divide that space between huge systems, medium systems
and we also pay attention to the style of music or type of noise in those
area. We cannot force people to go in LSSA, because, if we do that,
usually camps say yes, and then they "disappear".
There is also a trust issue: we trust people "a priori". When we are
told that sound will be kept under control, and that neighbors will
be respected, we need to believe it. This is Black Rock City, and
we trust participants. If the trust with a given group is broken, then
placement for the following year is (for that camp) is impacted.

In all those years doing placement, I can tell you that when there is
a conflict between camps, the situation is never black and white, and
there is never a "good camp" and a "bad camp". There is a breakage
of communication and community. Black Rock City can help, but there
is limits to what we can do: sound issues can really be solved only
when the people generating sound have a greater understanding of
the impact of their activities, and when people who are acting against
loud (too loud) camps really capture the validity of their actions.

It takes only one amplifier and a set of speakers to generate
unacceptable level of sound. But it takes everyone to properly
make that stop, and the blaming game, or other kind of potentially
aggressive behavior is not what will solve this.

Frog (frog@burningman.com)
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Postby joel the ornery » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:31 am

unjonharley wrote:Hushvill your ass, This year they moved moved hush and placed a kids rave camp within a block. This camp was supposed to have short hours. They turned there base drum on and let it run 24. I asked ranger if they could shut it down for a few hours. I was told: "To bad about you" SO... bringing my bullhorn and aircraft ear covers in 07. The feed back of that will make your pants wet. WHAT????... Yes bring yours too......


this makes me giggle.
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Postby helitack » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:35 am

Can anyone say Ted Nugent live at BRC?
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Postby joel the ornery » Wed Sep 27, 2006 9:52 am

helitack wrote:Can anyone say Ted Nugent live at BRC?


that would be an awesome camp... partying with Ted.
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Postby Kinetic IV » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:00 am

A live version of Great White Buffalo on the playa? I'd love that! And the louder the better.
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Postby unjonharley » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:04 am

Nice rant frog, cept: when a sound camp is placed in a bedroom of BRC. AND you take a complant to a rep. of the BMorg ie Ranger. You are told that "it's just to bad about you" Why not open the camp area to first come first served. That way you can weed out us old fucks that pour the money in. I have a sound system that runs off a postcard size solor panel. I can be head a block away. So 400 watt limit is just a few words to keep the masses at bay.


Yes I have done something personal about sound while sleeping. I have designed a sound deadening head board. This will not deaden the 24/7 electronic base drum.


So I am going to express myself with a bullhorn feed back. I'm inviting any one that feels the same to come along.
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Postby helitack » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:15 am

Camp right next to them, install a 299 watt system with the speakers pointed right at them and play this: http://www.tdfast.com/midi/Movies/CaptainKangaroo.mid at full volume 24/7
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Postby Player » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:49 am

Southcoaster wrote:
"oh shit i'm sorry. i didnt realize you were "normal people".

"wtf are you doing in Black Rock if you're "normal people", and what is the point of waking up for the heat of the day? why not find somewhere shady to nap during that heat, which is so oppressive to walk around in anyway?"


Who are you to tell me what my schedule should be? Why should OUtpost 23 dictate me my schedule? Sleeping during the hours from 4am to 7am is when MOST people sleep in BRC, especially earlier in the week. But however you do it, large sound in the wee hours of the morning does NOT belong in ANY neighborhood - it belongs on the esplanade or the 10 or 2 o'clock streets.

But if you need to know, my theme camp operates during the day. I like to sit in the heat and talk with friends. Apparently Outpost 23 doesn't care if they impose their schedule on their neighbors. This is obvious because they "REFUSED TO BE IN LSSA". They WANTED to be placed next to slumbering burners. This makes them assholes in my mind.

Soutcoaster wrote:
"also calling people liars doesnt help anything now does it? will you get more sleep next year if you convice people O23 is full of liars? nope."


No, but I'm getting sleep right here in Reno. If you read my posts you will see that I promised myself I would tell my story when I left BRC, rather than turn my beautiful week into an ugly confrontation. I'm keeping a promise I made to myself. But, I would not call Outpost 23 liars if they were not LIARS. They lied about the size of their sound, making it IMPOSSIBLE for earplugs to work. They lied about their hours of operation. They were honest with their listing, and for that I fault BMORG.

Southcoaster wrote:
"so basically you're saying that you should be able to camp next to a sound camp, and still get your sleep from 4am - whatever.

"surely you dont mean to say that sound camps should not operate at this time of day? that would kill a massive amount of the nightlife of BRC, something many many people cherish. what you are asking for is quite frankly 1) not going to happen, people like to party at night and 2) selfish. talk about "fucking up other people experience", asking a camp that has already planned to be an "after hours" sound camp, and advertized these plans, to simply scrap their plans in favor of... what, not being an after hours sound camp? come on man."


I did not plan to sleep next to a sound camp! They arrived AFTER I was set up. I like to party at night. I like to sleep after I party at night. I have been creating large sound camps since 2001. If a camp wants to blast large sound BEGINNING at FOUR in the MORNING then they belong in the LSSA. Period. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Southcoaster wrote:
"how did you end up camped next to these people? surely you went and talked to your neighbours first right? i mean like before you even set up a tent, or start unpacking the water, or anything else..... you have to go talk to your neighbours. i understand these might not have been your immediate neighbours, but still, it's good to be aware of what's around you. perhaps moving wouldnt have been such a chore if you'd never set up there in the first place..."


The answer is simple. I was there first. I was all set up. Talking to these jerks was an exercise in futility. This is because Outpost 23 was full of liars and assholes.

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Postby Kinetic IV » Wed Sep 27, 2006 10:53 am

This is because Outpost 23 was full of liars and assholes.


And people wonder why this discussion has legs? Sheesh. Player I know this has you pissed off but damn do you need to paint everyone in the camp with those labels?

There's got to be a way to work this out...but name calling ain't gonna cut it. Can you come back with a different approach?
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Postby Player » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:10 am

I tried a different approach already. They had their opportunity to respond to us in a "civilized" manner. They choose to ignore and then flaunt their attidutes with signs that said, "quit your bitchin" and other unsavory messages.

I tried to be nice. It did not work. Even the message that started this discussion was fairly nice. But I keep getting messages from people that just don't seem to get it.

All I have left is to paint the picture and depict the characters as I experienced them.

To me they lied. To me they were humungous assholes. To me they were first class jerks.
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Postby Dr BENWAYLADEN » Wed Sep 27, 2006 11:36 am

Let It Go


There's a wheel that some call karma that keeps turning in this life,
Saying "hatred breeds hatred; strife always ends in strife"
But how can the world get better, whence will come that brighter dawn
When the pain that you've been handed, you pass on?

You've got to let it go, let it go
You've got reason to be angry, but try not to let it grow;
When you brood on hate and bitterness till that is all you feel
You will never have the strength to stop the wheel.

When old resentments rise in you from heartbreaks where they hid
And you turn upon the innocent for wrongs another did
When oil upon the water only makes the water burn,
The wheel is trying for another turn.

The anger that defended you may yet your hopes betray
The war is over, cast aside your shield and walk away.
If you free yourself of bitterness, it is yourself you free--
Forgiveness leaves you richer -- you will see.
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:16 pm

It looks like the message is being heard, based on the response. And (unless there is a name change) it also looks like placement for Outpost23 may be different next year. Of course, that doesn't prevent a similar experience happening with a new camp (or a morphed camp). Placement has got to be a bitch to be in charge of, no doubt many ulcers have resulted by those who do so.

I am curious how the question about amplified sound (300 watts or more?) on the application for placement by Outpost23 was filled in - was it clearly specified on their app that they were going to exceed the 300w limit for outside the LSSC? If so, did the placers ask them to limit their sound/hours of operation, be nice, or anything like that? And if this was done, why does it sound like so many Rangers just shrugged their shoulders? And if not, why?

I can see why a camp would not want to be in the LSSC zone (especially if you end up to one of the massive camps), although we were there in 2005 and our puny 120w system had no problem filling our bar with casual background music. (true, we were 2 blocks from the nearest "big" camp, but as Frog has stated, they try hard to arrange things so).

But I still think that any camp that plays loud music outside the LSSC should be prepared for a confrontation by pissed off neighbors. Having earplugs to pass out is a first step, but not the whole journey. Having a designated and skilled ambassador is a good second step, but fails if they do not show up until Thursday (and let's face it, getting to the Playa on-time is a challenge even in a good year). I think the next steps are essential; being able to discuss the issue in a calm and civilized manner, and being willing to compromise to help settle the dispute. From the posts here, I think this is where the breakdown occured (probably a bit on both sides, but as I wasn't there I cannot say).

Everyone has a lot of time & money invested in their BM experience, no one wants it ruined. But failing to take those 3rd and 4rth steps (by both parties) will often result in escalation to an unfortunate level.

Here is what the Survival guide says about sound;
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The playa is a natural amplifier and it doesn't take much to produce a large amount of sound. Bass travels multi-directionally and cannot be effectively contained with any structures. This gives "sound" as an art form an unfair advantage over other art forms. Burning Man is dedicated to radical self-expression, but it is also dedicated to creating community. This means we all must find a way to get along with our neighbors. Our past history has led us to this point where we MUST give guidelines on amplification and limit space for this sort of art. Sound Policy

The following four rules make up our basic sound policy:

1. Neighbors should talk to one another when sound becomes problem and try to resolve the issue through direct communication.
2. Large-scale sound installations MUST be located along the ends of our city. They may express themselves unless community complaints persist.
3. A maximum power amplification of 300 watts is permitted behind this Large Scale Sound Art Zone in greater Black Rock City.
4. Any complaints about excessive sound will become the concern of the Black Rock Rangers. Concerns about excessive sound can result in:


1. volume check and mediation between camps,
2. volume check and a final warning on complaints,
3. the disabling of equipment.

(part about no quiet/loud sides snipped)

Large Scale Sound Art

All large-scale sound systems will be located in the Large-Scale Sound Art Zone. Like all theme camps, these camps will be encouraged to be as creative and interactive as possible. The primary rule is that all speakers MUST be turned away from greater Black Rock City toward the open playa at all times. The deadline for large-sound art installations is first-come, first-served, so when these spots are filled, no more sound systems will be permitted within Black Rock City.

Sound Complaints

If you believe your neighbor's sound is too loud and you are not able to effectively negotiate a solution, you may report this to a Black Rock Ranger station or directly to a Black Rock Ranger. (Please do not mistake a BLM Ranger for our own). Black Rock Ranger Stations are located at both Outposts and in Center Camp. A complaint should contain:

* The exact SOURCE of the sound. (Vague reports will result in no action or ineffective action.)
* The exact TIME of the disturbance. (Vague reports will result in no action or ineffective action). Please report problems when they happen, although reports filed the next day can be useful with persistent problem camps. We will not take action on issues of taste.

As a community, we need to work together to keep sound at desirable levels. This means that everyone involved is personally responsible for how they affect everyone else's experience. If your neighbor believes your sound is too loud, you must work with them to find an acceptable volume. You will need to check in with those that you are camped near to find out what other events are planned and work with them to create a schedule. With these actions you should be able to handle all of your own sound issues. If everyone works together there will be no need for Black Rock Rangers to monitor sound. Please pass this information around to other participants in your theme camp or village and to those that are not planning on being listed on the map. A community effort is need to pull this off
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In an attempt to pull out of a flame war, how about we start discussing how to avoid such incidents in the future?

Here is what I recommend if you feel you are being assaulted by sound;

1) Try to talk to a representative from the camp in question. This probably shouldn't be the DJ, as they are very busy and unlikely to be in the proper frame of mind at that moment. Ideally it should be the camp manager or ambassador. Be sure to get (and record) their name and position within the camp for possible later use. The conversation should be calm, with a clear statement of what you would like to happen (ie-turn the volume down a little). If the incident starts turning ugly (yelling, abuse, etc), walk away.

2) If this does not work, try to get a commitment to have a discussion the next day when everyone is removed from the situation (and presumambly more open to a civilized discussion). Before this meeting, talk to your neighbors and see if they too are upset (maybe include them if so). During this discussion, make sure to affirm the sound camps right to their art form, but respectfully request that they do it in a less offending manner. This may include a lesser volume, or reduced hours of operation, or changing the speaker locations.

3) If the first 2 steps above fail, then go get a Ranger without further delay. Be prepared with location, time, etc as the sound policy states. Keep looking for one until you find one. If a Ranger refuses to become involved, record their badge number/name for later complaints to the Org. There are a lot of Rangers out there at any given time, so keep trying to find one that will assist with the incident.

4) If the third step fails, by now you should be tired enough to sleep on it. If not, consider finding a quieter place to sleep for the night. Repeat steps 1-3 the next day.

5) If steps 1-4 provide no relief, then you may consider some form of vigilante action. Initially this should be an attempt to "force" them to open negotiations (bullhorns during their sets, signs facing their camp, sit-ins on their dance floor, etc). If this fails, then you may consider a more aggressive approach. Be aware, however, that this may result in legal action against you (arrest or lawsuits), so be certain that there are no other options if you take this final step. Also be aware that if you are caught damaging someone's equipment, you may be required to pay for repairs later. If you are not willing to do so if required, you shouldn't be taking vigilante action. If caught, be sure to offer to pay for repairs after BM.

At no time should violence against an individual (ie-punching them) be considered. Violence against property is one thing (and a pretty serious one at that). Violence against an individual is never acceptable (except in self-defense of one's self or another person).
Talent hits a target no one else can hit; Genius hits a target no one else can see.
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Postby southcoaster » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:20 pm

Player wrote:Southcoaster wrote:
"oh shit i'm sorry. i didnt realize you were "normal people".

"wtf are you doing in Black Rock if you're "normal people", and what is the point of waking up for the heat of the day? why not find somewhere shady to nap during that heat, which is so oppressive to walk around in anyway?"


Who are you to tell me what my schedule should be? Why should OUtpost 23 dictate me my schedule?

i am no one that could do such a thing. and who are you to do the same?


Sleeping during the hours from 4am to 7am is when MOST people sleep in BRC, especially earlier in the week. But however you do it, large sound in the wee hours of the morning does NOT belong in ANY neighborhood - it belongs on the esplanade or the 10 or 2 o'clock streets.

in a city as temporary and eccentric as BRC you cannot refer to things like zoning laws. you cannot say "the edges of the city (10,2 and the E) are for loud sound and everywhere else is 'neighbourhood' territory, which means quietness"

you *know* it just doesnt work like that. I really think if you had talked to the camps around you when you got there this could have been avoided. We were probably "meeting the neighbours" for about 8-12 hours before the mini van started getting unpacked in earnest. We had very few neighbour-related incidents.


But if you need to know, my theme camp operates during the day. I like to sit in the heat and talk with friends. Apparently Outpost 23 doesn't care if they impose their schedule on their neighbors. This is obvious because they "REFUSED TO BE IN LSSA". They WANTED to be placed next to slumbering burners. This makes them assholes in my mind.

i'm sorry, i just dont buy that. i really dont believe that they made a group decision to deliberately piss people off.

why would they be all the way out on 9:05 and A? surely if they really wanted to do that would have actually been *really* up in the city. 9:00 is a big street. A is a pretty big street too (it's so close to Esplande you can usually hear some beats/propane flame whooshes from theme camps out there).

I understand that you are frustrated (and i'm not saying you shouldnt be) but i dont think that means their motives for not being in LSSA were maliciously motivated.


Soutcoaster wrote:
"also calling people liars doesnt help anything now does it? will you get more sleep next year if you convice people O23 is full of liars? nope."


No, but I'm getting sleep right here in Reno. If you read my posts you will see that I promised myself I would tell my story when I left BRC, rather than turn my beautiful week into an ugly confrontation. I'm keeping a promise I made to myself. But, I would not call Outpost 23 liars if they were not LIARS. They lied about the size of their sound, making it IMPOSSIBLE for earplugs to work. They lied about their hours of operation. They were honest with their listing, and for that I fault BMORG.

Southcoaster wrote:
"so basically you're saying that you should be able to camp next to a sound camp, and still get your sleep from 4am - whatever.

"surely you dont mean to say that sound camps should not operate at this time of day? that would kill a massive amount of the nightlife of BRC, something many many people cherish. what you are asking for is quite frankly 1) not going to happen, people like to party at night and 2) selfish. talk about "fucking up other people experience", asking a camp that has already planned to be an "after hours" sound camp, and advertized these plans, to simply scrap their plans in favor of... what, not being an after hours sound camp? come on man."


I did not plan to sleep next to a sound camp! They arrived AFTER I was set up. I like to party at night. I like to sleep after I party at night. I have been creating large sound camps since 2001. If a camp wants to blast large sound BEGINNING at FOUR in the MORNING then they belong in the LSSA. Period. Why is this so difficult to understand?

perhaps i read your post too quickly earlier and missed the bit about you being there before them. that makes it even more difficult (being that they were placed there, but then you were there first... )

yeah i dunno any more. i'm not part of O23, but i definately appreciate their contribution to my burning man experience the last 2 years. then i also havent had to camp with/next to them.


Southcoaster wrote:
"how did you end up camped next to these people? surely you went and talked to your neighbours first right? i mean like before you even set up a tent, or start unpacking the water, or anything else..... you have to go talk to your neighbours. i understand these might not have been your immediate neighbours, but still, it's good to be aware of what's around you. perhaps moving wouldnt have been such a chore if you'd never set up there in the first place..."


The answer is simple. I was there first. I was all set up. Talking to these jerks was an exercise in futility. This is because Outpost 23 was full of liars and assholes.


yeah like i said i didnt realize you were there first. still cant say it was a great place to choose if you wanted to get some good shut eye, but still i can see how annoying that would be if you were there first.

moving sucks and i've tried to convince people to do it before, like friends that couldnt find us, so started setting up elsewhere (i myself generally travel *very* light, like i can live out of my jacket and camelbak for 2-3 days, so moving's not usually an issue...)

i still cant blame them for too much, being that it was they had in mind from before they got there (and in my mind near 9:00 all the way back to the plaza is party town), but i dont hold them blameless, as they should have explained their intentions to their neighbours.
"Everything you've heard about burningman is probably only half true. They had to leave out the other half just so you buy it!" - Olly the Limey.

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Postby Player » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:02 pm

Dr BENWAYLADEN wrote:Let It Go


There's a wheel that some call karma that keeps turning in this life,
Saying "hatred breeds hatred; strife always ends in strife"
But how can the world get better, whence will come that brighter dawn
When the pain that you've been handed, you pass on?

You've got to let it go, let it go
You've got reason to be angry, but try not to let it grow;
When you brood on hate and bitterness till that is all you feel
You will never have the strength to stop the wheel.

When old resentments rise in you from heartbreaks where they hid
And you turn upon the innocent for wrongs another did
When oil upon the water only makes the water burn,
The wheel is trying for another turn.

The anger that defended you may yet your hopes betray
The war is over, cast aside your shield and walk away.
If you free yourself of bitterness, it is yourself you free--
Forgiveness leaves you richer -- you will see.


I agree. Forgiveness is the way. In BRC, that is exactly what I did. And then I moved. In return I promised myself I would further reward myself by enjoying literally (and I mean that literally) trashing this camp like they deserved to be trashed (literally) on the playa.

Your advice, however, is well stated and I fully agree. I'm no saint, and so I hope you and the others will forgive me of my moment of verbal release. Hopefully this will help everyone next year.
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Okie dokie...

Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:25 pm

I've finally gotten a chance to get onto Eplaya, and as the "pet ranger" at Outpost23 (as I was originally labeled earlier in this thread) I'd like to offer a third perspective to this tale of woe.

To get it out of the way, here's how I would summarize the situation: Outpost23 was placed as a dance camp, on the same street as several other camps featuring loud music including the Lingerie Lounge, which spent at least $150,000 on its sound system and bar setup. On paper it looked like a good match. The main two problems were that O23 ended up with a bigger amp, and their playing hours were different from everyone else on the block.

There are two sides to this problem... one side felt that they had the right to have their party as loud and late as they'd like because it's Burning Man and there are no rules, and the other side felt that the camp should stop playing and/or turn the music down while they were trying to sleep. Both sides have valid arguments, and it is a shame that more people on both sides didn't try to come together earlier in the week and solve the problem before it came to a head. People may argue that Outpost23 should have done something sooner to stop the problem, but since only one person on the entire block was coming over to talk to the camp about it they thought only one person had a problem with what was going on... especially in light of the fact that several close neighbours came over and had a great time with the camp with no complaints.

The bottom line is that better communication on both sides would have helped a great deal, and it's not fair to pin the blame for everything that happened on Outpost23.

Moving on...

Player wrote:That's right - you ASSAULTED us after we politely asked you not to. There is no defense for your "timeslot"


I hate to say it, and please keep in mind that this only addresses the time slot and not the sound level, but... it's Burning Man. There shouldn't be a need for a "defense" for the timeslot each camp chooses for its activities. As for the "politely asking" part, well...

When I returned to the camp around 4 am monday morning to make sure I was there for the scheduled party in case anyone on the block wanted to speak to a ranger (as I did for four night straight without anyone but Jill and one other guy coming over to talk to me, btw), the camp was dark and quiet. I asked what happened, and was told by the DJ that he was spinning and was grabbed by a crazed-looking guy in his PJs who was desperate for sleep. He said he felt bad for the guy, and wound things down several hours before the planned party time. I can't speak for what happened before I got there, but I do know for certain that the planned party did not happen that morning as a result of this interaction.

Later on, a woman came over and said that her husband was very upset, apologized for his behaviour the night before, and asked me if the camp planned to play every night at the same time. I explained that the camp's plan was to play each night from 4 am to 7 am, and we were currently working out compromises on sound levels with the other neighbours on the block. She looked sad and said they'd have to move their tent if that was our plan... I very politely said that might be a good idea to move their tent if they were having trouble sleeping with music going on, and offered to help them move things if they needed it.

That was the last any of us heard from either you or your wife, Player. Until now, in this thread.

Player wrote:Dude, you are so full of shit I am speechless.


I'm sorry you feel that way, but some people do think it's kind of hostile to grab a DJ's shirt collar and demand that they stop playing the music they traveled hundreds of miles to play. I guess it's all a matter of perspective, like so many things are.

Player wrote:Wrong again. I came over BEGGING. My wife came over for a neighborly discussion about the problem. DID YOU READ MY POST??????


I did. And since the interaction you described between myself and your wife did not actually happen the way you described it, in my mind it makes me wonder how accurate your description of your own interaction with the DJ was. But I wasn't there, and my personal philosophy is that I can only go on the accounts I was given by other people and try to keep an open mind about what actually happened.

Player wrote:I had moved several blocks away from your rude camp by then and had nothing to do with that. Either way, you brought it on yourselves.


No one ever said you had anything to do with the people who came over, damaged equipment and waived their genitals at the women in camp: everyone in Outpost23 is well aware that it was the two people from your camp who were hanging out monday morning talking about how people at Burning Man should just chill out and let people play their music. O23 was more shocked than anyone when it turned out to be them who came over and freaked out at the end of the week.

And no one brings that sort of attack on themselves, no matter what they've done. Even though I can see the point of view of the woman who was upset by lack of sleep and pulled the speaker cables (though I'm definitely not condoning what she did and think she should have handled her frustration differently), there was no excuse for the guy who whipped out his genitals and waved them at women in the camp and called them whores. Absolutely none.

Player wrote:Outpost 23 LIED on their camp application. They said they only had 300 watts. Do you know what these first class jerks brought? TWO THOUSAND WATTS. Yes, that's right - 2000 watts 40 feet from my head. What assholes.


Just to set the record straight on that one: no one lied. Outpost23 had a 300 watt amp when the application was filled out and when they were gearing up for the playa... but it broke down on the way, and the only one that could be borrowed was bigger.

Player wrote:I did not get any badge numbers from the creepy ranger chick. I just wanted to get away from them because they were not only assholes, they were creepy. Took us all day Wednesday to do, but it was worth it.


Lol, "creepy"? I never even saw you, so I'm not sure where you're coming up with that description.

And you don't need to hunt down a "badge number" for me (especially considering BRC Rangers don't even have badges), I'm more than happy to tell you that my handle is Ranger Mockingbird. If you'd talked to Jill in FUCS about it, she could have easily told my name to you because I worked with her sunday through thursday to try to find a good solution to the problem.

Player wrote:I have no desire at all to discuss this with you or anyone from your camp offlist in a non-public forum. I tried that and my wife tried that already on Monday morning and it didn't work very well, did it? I want our discussion on the record and I want everyone to know what you are and what you did - especially BMORG so they put your camp where it belongs next year so someone else doesn't have to go through what we did.


So you want to call the camp names, make all kinds of unfounded and unrelated accusations about drug use and intelligence levels, and then not be bothered to discuss the issue directly with the people you're trying to flame here. Is that really what you're saying?

As for your discussion not "working well"... the DJ turned off his music when you asked him to, right? So how is that not working out for you?

I'm more than happy to have the discussion on record as well, and I fully invite anyone else who was actually there to join the discussion if they'd like to... either here or in our public forum at www.outpost23.com if people would like to keep ePlaya free from this kind of drama. But I honestly think we'd all be better served as a community if the issue dropped and we moved forward to find a solution to the problem for future burns.

I don't know about you, but I'd much rather focus my energy on making next year better than sit here arguing over last year. Who's with me?

not hiding behind any sort of "badge number",
Ranger Mockingbird
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Postby spectabillis » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:54 pm

Player wrote:Your advice, however, is well stated and I fully agree. I'm no saint, and so I hope you and the others will forgive me of my moment of verbal release. Hopefully this will help everyone next year.


well, this is the eplaya, and probably one of the few places where people are given this much freedom of speech and expression to vent before a large population of attendees. i for one would appreciate moving the discussion into jafe's realm of how to better handle these things in the future.
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Postby helitack » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:57 pm

Kind of a long diatribe about a ranger not enforcing the sound rules isn't it?
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Postby spectabillis » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:01 pm

joel the ornery wrote:something...


helitack wrote:something...


i cant honestly tell, but do either of you have anything interesting to post? not that i have much of a problem with that, its just that you seem to do it in EVERY topic.
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Nope

Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:05 pm

helitack wrote:Kind of a long diatribe about a ranger not enforcing the sound rules isn't it?


Not really. I just wanted to bring a different perspective to the topic, because when you're only dealing with extreme points of view the whole story is never told completely.

Though that does bring up an interesting question: what do you personally think rangers should be doing to "enforce" sound rules?

That is definitely something we try to find an answer for, it's a hard line to walk. Should we continue our basic policy of standing back and allowing people room to work it out for themselves like adults? Should we become the Sound Police and take peoples' equipment away? Should a seperate team be compiled who enforces sound rules throughout the playa, and can be called any time someone nearby is upset about sound levels?

I'm not in any way trying to be snarky, I'd just like to hear feedback on what people think the rangers (or some other group of unpaid volunteers at BM who wants to take it on) should do in these situations.
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Postby helitack » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:11 pm

Hmmm, BM LLC publishes rules of conduct, like the 300 watt rule, rangers are supposed to be mediators, if the camp is in violation of the published BM LLC rules, the rangers should mediate and if that fails, take it to the next level and let them settle the issue.
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Postby thisisthatwhichis » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:14 pm

God she's cute, when she's diplomatic....... :)

Just kidding!....... I agree, folks, let's move it on to more productive ideas about how to improve things between parties, without a bunch of new rules, and without the back-biting....
TITWI

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It's show time, folks.....Joe Gideon
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Postby lomaxfrog » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:21 pm

I was responding on the placement issue. As I explained, placement
is not part of rangers. We can help mediating, and be more aware
of specific camps needs for the following year, but, we are not
rangers.

Frog

[quote="unjonharley"]Nice rant frog, cept: when a sound camp is placed in a bedroom of BRC. AND you take a complant to a rep. of the BMorg ie Ranger. You are told that "it's just to bad about you" Why not open the camp area to first come first served. That way you can weed out us old fucks that pour the money in. I have a sound system that runs off a postcard size solor panel. I can be head a block away. So 400 watt limit is just a few words to keep the masses at bay.


Yes I have done something personal about sound while sleeping. I have designed a sound deadening head board. This will not deaden the 24/7 electronic base drum.


So I am going to express myself with a bullhorn feed back. I'm inviting any one that feels the same to come along.[/quote]
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Postby isiseyes » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:22 pm

helitack wrote:Hmmm, BM LLC publishes rules of conduct, like the 300 watt rule, rangers are supposed to be mediators, if the camp is in violation of the published BM LLC rules, the rangers should mediate and if that fails, take it to the next level and let them settle the issue.


You've got it right: we're mediators. Not enforcers. It's a common misconception that we're some sort of authority figure, when really we're just there to help when we can... or if we can't then we point people to someone who can help. I personally am not aware of who (individual or group) currently enforces sound rules, and I believe there are meetings coming up in the next couple of months to address this very issue.

My only point in posting originally was to say that there's always more than one side to a story, and blame does not fall squarely on any one individual or camp in this matter. I would probably love to see a solution to this problem happen more than any of you, because I'd personally rather spend my unpaid volunteer time during my vacation to BM helping people with broken limbs and bad trips than sound complaints... but I am here to help with anything I can, at any time, and will do what I can within my limited ability.

It would just be really nice to see neighbours better able to work it out amongst themselves rather than resorting to anger and violence, because then everyone wins.

I'm there because I love ALL of you,
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Sassy's Story

Postby Player » Wed Sep 27, 2006 2:29 pm

Player's wife, Sassy, here. Player just told me about this LOOOONG thread, so I thought I'd come on here and give my version of things, in case it helps at all. I don't have time to read through all these posts, so I'm sorry if I'm repeating something you already know.

On Sunday night/Monday morning, hubby and I were DRASTICALLY awakened by the loud music coming from Outpost 23. Since we went through something very similar 2 years ago, we had an idea of what we were in for. Player went across the street to speak with the DJ to ask him to lower the music so we could sleep. I watched out our tent window. Player had a little talk with the DJ, then shook his hand, and while holding his hand actually put it up to his forehead in thanks!!! (In my tent I said "Awwww, sweet." :o)

When Player got back to the tent, he said the DJ agreed to lower the music, and was sorry -- that they were just letting off steam due to something earlier in the day.

Ranger, he absolutely did not grab anyone's collar. If you were referring to someone else, I surely hope you'll clear that up.

Outpost 23 DID lower their music for a little bit, but then turned it up again. We simply couldn't sleep. Earplugs didn't work.

The next day, Player and I decided to come up with a plan. Remember, we'd been through something similar 2 years before, and we know how something like this COULD go, so we wanted to come up with a solution that would work for all of us. We decided that we would try to get on their schedule -- sleep as late as we could (which is rather impossible in a hot army tent), take naps, and go to bed at 7 am when their music would stop.

So I went over to Outpost 23. I remember a guy with red/pink hair and the Ranger....there were a couple others, but they stand out in my mind. I started off the convo politely, and they were VERY defensive. It was really obvious they had heard complaints before. I felt a better connection to the guy with the red/pink hair, so I worked my way into having a convo only with him. We were pleasant to each other. I told him I understand they're a registered theme camp (which they had mentioned several times). I asked why they didn't request to be put closer to the outer edge? He said their sound system isn't loud enough to be placed out there. (Of course, now we all understand that their sound system broke down and they had to use a different one -- this was NOT mentioned once, and I feel it was not very neighborly to park themselves in the spot they were placed if they KNEW their sound system was over the limit. Oy! But I digress...)

Anyway, I told him we had decided we would try to get on their schedule. He seemed happy with this. Then I told him we just wanted to be sure their music would, indeed, stop at 7 am. He told me he couldn't guarantee that. That they go with the flow, and would most likely be going past 7 am. I said "In that case, we're going to move." We parted ways in a friendly manner.

Back at our personal camp, Player and I were sitting around, waiting for the day to cool off before we started the LOOOONG process of taking down our big army tent and shade structure.

During this time, Sweet Thang (a placer) came over to talk to us about an unrelated issue. We asked about OUtpost 23, what their rights were, etc. Told her about the noise, etc. She went over to check on things, and eventually came over to say nothing could be done.

If any of us had known OUtpost 23 had 2,000 watts instead of 300, I'm quite sure they would have been shut down.

A friend of ours stopped by and we made a new plan. That Player and I, when it was bedtime, could go a few blocks away to use her trailer and stay there for the night. This plan would only work for a couple nights, as she was expecting a new "tenant". ;o)

The first day, after sleeping in the trailer, we came back to camp. Player passed out in the tent (still sleepy). I decided to go over the Ranger Outpost to see if there is anything that could be done before we made the move. I told the Ranger (a super sweet gal) about the whole sordid tale. I told her the guy I talked to at Outpost 23 was really cool...I just wanted to know if anything could be done. She said she'd check on it, and if necessary have someone check the decibels of their music when it was actually happening. I thanked her. I saw her eventually go over to Outpost 23. I never saw nor heard from her again.

When are two nights in our friend's empty trailer were over, and after hearing from our campmates (and others on our block) that Outpost 23 was not only playing their music until 7 Am, but all the way to 10 am (!!), we FINALLY took our entire camp down and moved it a few blocks away, in the "backyard" of the DPW. Of course, it SUCKED being so far away from our fabulous camp of friends, but the DPW were cool and very gracious.

That's all I know. Anything that happened besides what I have stated here has nothing to do with Player or myself. We heard stories about them and their loud music the rest of the week. The entire block was really PO'd...Outpost 23 did not make a lot of friends this year. We were very thankful we had moved away.

Thanks for reading this. :wink:
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