Sound Issues with Outpost 23 AKA the Afterparty

Postby isiseyes » Sat Sep 30, 2006 3:25 pm

Ron wrote:Ranger M, I've got a question for you. Why is it, in all your posting and attempts to stand up in the situation, I've yet to see you take responsibility for your camp's actions and apologize?


You must have missed the post where I specifically said the camp takes responsibility for breaking the sound rules :)

But as for the rest of it, I am not here to be a camp cheerleader or apologizer: I am here to give another side to a story originally posted to make the camp look like Evil Sound Gnomes Against Innocent Villagers, and I am also here to try to find a future solution to this problem which affects thousands of other people not even related to the camp I was with. To me it is far more important to find a solution to this very old problem than hash out who did what to who when and where, and it has nothing to do with the fact that it was my friends who were involved: I'd be doing the same thing if it were an unrelated group of people.

I believe *everyone* involved in the situation with Outpost23 had a bit of the blame for everything that happened, and that includes the camp itself. But I do not speak for everyone there, and can not make an apology for the entire camp because honestly there are those in O23 that don't think they should have to apologize. There are also those from the block who don't think the people who damaged the camp's equipment and waved their genitals at the women while calling them whores should apologize either. I am not here to speak for any of them.

I can only speak for myself, and I actually am sorry that so many were frustrated by the sound levels being so far above the city limits: it shouldn't have gotten to that point. I know it directly contradicts what some think of me, but I cared a great deal about the unhappy people on the block and spent most of my burn trying to deal with several dozen people with different ideas of what Burning Man is about and what to do about it... which I wouldn't have done if I honestly felt there was nothing wrong going on with any side of the situation. Occasionally it makes me sad that I missed four days of having fun out there to deal with a situation where no one wanted to communicate or find a solution to a problem that was bothering all of them, but I just take a deep breath and remember that there is always next year :)

My apology does not mean much here as it only comes from me and not the entire camp, but if that's what you want to hear then you have it.

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Postby Lorgasm » Sat Sep 30, 2006 4:05 pm

Stop the Madness!!!!
Hey, this year I camped at 2:30 and Hope. A place I liked to call the "kiddie table". Look on your map. It was FAR from many things, yet close to many things. Bottom line, it was peaceful. Yes, I heard music, but not LOUD THUMPA THUMPA THUMPA. IT was great. I woke up to the mountains and friendly folk cycling by sayin hi.

If loud noises are bothersome, consider camping at the kiddie table. It was a first for me. Might do it again. dunno. I hate to see fellow burners fighting.

Now...come here...everyone....EVERYONE DAMMIT....breathe...now.....GROUP HUG.
BOOBIES!!!
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Postby Ron » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:19 am

isiseyes wrote:....
You must have missed the post where I specifically said the camp takes responsibility for breaking the sound rules :)


Nah, I saw it. I just also saw that it lacked an apology, and now we know why. As I read your post you personally are sorry the situation happened but can't apologize for your camp because you aren't the spokesperson for your camp, and because certain folk in your camp don't feel they have anything to apologize for. Makes sense, and thanks for your own efforts and clarity.

Now here's the rub. Unless and until the folk in charge in your camp accept and agree that they have something to apologize for, there ain't much progress to be made via conversation. Want to help avoid these situations in the future? Help your camp to understand that there are rules on sound in BRC and that you all should follow them. In the absence of that I promise you your camp will have sound issues with your neighbors *most* years you all go, I'd bet.

As for the impression of your camp being "evil," that's your guilt, and the folk who were most bothered by your camp, yelling in your ear. Most of us in this conversation, seems to me, have either admitted to being sound assholes themselves from time to time or already said the guy flashing his dangly bits was out of line. I don't believe you'll get much sympathy for the damage to your equipment, OTOH, but hey we take what we can get, eh?

So if you truly want to reduce the odds of this problem reoccurring I'd suggest you start with the camp in the mirror. When you've been respecting the 300 watt rule, when you've spent four days turning down your music when asked, you'll find you have much fewer problems and won't lose those days trying to fix a problem that your camp doesn't accept as a problem.

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Postby Ron » Mon Oct 02, 2006 8:22 am

Lorgasm wrote:Stop the Madness!!!!....
Now...come here...everyone....EVERYONE DAMMIT....breathe...now.....GROUP HUG.


Yes, please do stop the madness of suggesting that it's the victim's fault ('Too loud for you? Move.' That only works in the sound zone, seems to me.) and that conflict is always bad. Grown ups don't always have to agree and trying to sweep that conflict under the rug is truly mad. Among the flames there is a conversation happening, that does have value to some, seems to me.

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Postby bdeywoo » Mon Oct 02, 2006 10:53 am

[quote="Kinetic IV"]Earplugs are cheap.

There is walk-in camping for those who want solitude.

If you camp in a theme camp and are up close to the Esplanade extra noise is the price you pay for that access. You can't have the prominent location without dealing with some of the drawbacks.

As for medical issues I've got a metric fuckton, some known on the board, some not. Lack of sleep and excessive stress aggravates me too and outside of BRC I am a cranky SOB when it all hits at once. But in BRC I come back to the cardinal rule: don't fuck up someone else's experience. So rather than complain I looked into better earplugs, noise cancelling devices, white noise generators, etc and decided to let my tendency to tinker with things loose to find a solution to the problem. It's all in the approach. Don't bitch, control what you can, let the rest go. I'm not going to bang my head on neighborhood disputes or go drag in the almost practically fucking worthless Rangers (with some notable exceptions like Sasquatch for example) and waste time...I only have a few days to spend in BRC and I'd prefer spending it having fun or with good people like I got to stay with this year. That's my take on it...and I bet I'm not alone with that point of view.[/quote]

So abbreviated.......radical self reliance no matter the circumstance.

Bravo, for finding a way to deal with the problems you have rather than waiting/making others do it for you.
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Postby isiseyes » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:01 pm

Ron wrote:Now here's the rub. Unless and until the folk in charge in your camp accept and agree that they have something to apologize for, there ain't much progress to be made via conversation. Want to help avoid these situations in the future? Help your camp to understand that there are rules on sound in BRC and that you all should follow them. In the absence of that I promise you your camp will have sound issues with your neighbors *most* years you all go, I'd bet.


I'm sure you're right, but my point in being involved in this discussion was not to find out what my own camp could have done to solve the temporary problem... I know very well what could have been done, and it was not in my power to make it happen because I was one voice among many in the camp and others did not feel things needed to be turned down.

What I'm trying to do here is find suggestions for dealing with the problem as a city rather than focusing on this one example: I am not dismissing the people who were angry about my specific camp, but getting angry over and over about the past is not going to solve anything in the future.

Like I said, now's the time to brainstorm since the issue is being discussed now for next year :) My personal start to a solution: working as hard to educate people about the established sound rules as we do about putting garbage in the potties. In my experiences dealing with sound complaints on ALL sides, the majority of BRC is in the dark about what the rules actually are and I think simple education would be a giant step forward in solving the problem.

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Postby helitack » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:18 pm

Nothing you could have done? Huh? You are supposedly a ranger. I must repeat:
March your little butt down to ranger HQ and ask for assistance. Jeebus, accept some responsibility for your own inaction.
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Postby spectabillis » Mon Oct 02, 2006 7:59 pm

Ron wrote: Grown ups don't always have to agree and trying to sweep that conflict under the rug is truly mad.


please show me who is making the attempt to 'sweep it under the rug' because that sounds like using an extreme way to make your point.


i dont think anything is wrong with reaching a better balance.
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Postby Key Man » Mon Oct 02, 2006 9:08 pm

I like this Ron guy. He makes a lot of sense.
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Postby Ron » Tue Oct 03, 2006 12:12 pm

spectabillis wrote:...please show me who is making the attempt to 'sweep it under the rug' because that sounds like using an extreme way to make your point. ....


I quoted what I was talking about, S.B., are you looking for me to hold your hand again? :)

By asking folk to "stop the madness," I took Lorgasm to be asking for an end to the argument and debate. Calling for such to end, before folk are done with the topic, is the same as trying to sweep said conflict under the rug, to me.

Ron, who's still thinking about RM's reply and thanks for it.
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Postby spectabillis » Tue Oct 03, 2006 5:19 pm

Ron wrote:are you looking for me to hold your hand again? :)


whatever

Calling for such to end, before folk are done with the topic, is the same as trying to sweep said conflict under the rug, to me.


to you then, because i dont see it.
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Postby Ron » Tue Oct 03, 2006 6:21 pm

spectabillis wrote:....
to you then, because i dont see it.


But of course. In the absence of a Universe given Magic Decoder Ring we're all limited to our own interpretations of any given communication. It couldn't be anything other than, "to me," or, "to you." Furthermore, those ways couldn't help but be different, give that we're different.

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Postby Marmot » Thu Oct 05, 2006 9:15 am

I only know this. I have met Player and Sassy. And while they likely don't remember me, IMHO, and more importantly, those of my friends who have camped with them-- these are some really GOOD people.

They get the shy to come out of their shells, they get the lonely to feel recognized. These are the gifts they bring to Burning Man. They've made a lot of people really happy.

If they choose not to come back to BRC, we'll all be the poorer for it. And over THIS? What a shame.

-DJ Marmot
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Postby Ron » Fri Oct 06, 2006 9:07 am

isiseyes wrote:.. I know very well what could have been done, and it was not in my power to make it happen because I was one voice among many in the camp and others did not feel things needed to be turned down.... My personal start to a solution: working as hard to educate people about the established sound rules as we do about putting garbage in the potties....Ranger Mockingbird


I've been stewing on the above and have a question. It looks to me like you feel your ability to educate the entire city is greater than your ability to educate your own personal camp. Is that an accurate impression?

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Postby spectabillis » Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:17 pm

and i have a question for you ron: is that a serious question - or an attempt at making a point through one? if you have a point to make then by now you should just make it, not trying to bait someone into a debate.


of course dont let my suggestion stop you or anyone else from getting actively involved in trying to make something positive happen now, its much better to continue to be dickheads because we all dont have anything better to do about it, or anything better to period. oh wait... i forgot... using the excuse of "but i am making things better by..." while continually grinding on people DOES make a difference.
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Postby Ron » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:21 am

spectabillis wrote:and i have a question for you ron: is that a serious question - or an attempt at making a point through one?


Yes, it is a serious question. I try to check my perceptions after having learned that they aren't always accurate. I don't know if I have a point to make or not, because I'm not sure of my reading.

If you're tired of the discussion feel free to stop participating in it. That time clock that was mentioned before might be useful. But it also might be helpful to remember that your own perceptions are no more inherently accurate than mine and your, "grinding on," could be another's search for understanding.

See, it really does take dissension, disagreement, and discussion to create change in social environments. Furthermore, that change will always be resisted by portions of those environments, making the odds of those conversations being unpleasant to some pretty high. But without them there really is no change and with out change there can be no improvement. It's not an excuse, even if you personally want to diminish it by calling it so.

So is it better to be a dickhead by having this conversation when folk have asked for silence, or to be a dickhead by blasting your music for days on playa after folk have asked for quiet?

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Postby Mozy bonz » Sat Oct 07, 2006 9:32 am

Ron I have allot of respect for you but it looked like you where trying to bait someone into a debate to me also. I think every on got the point of this thread on both sides. lots of other thread with the same type of topic I am sure people would want to debate you in. let these people rest please.
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Postby BoxaRox » Sat Oct 07, 2006 11:03 am

I say have at 'em Ron. Fuckwits won't listen to reason on the playa, no reason at all not to continue to offer it to them now. Might help them to remember that what they do affects others.

Folks who have themselves voiced a disdain for sound standards and self-regulation don't really have high standing when they attempt to squelch discussion. Don't you think?

TRue, the question WAS rhetorical. But it serves to drive home the difference between lip service and action. Extreme-volume sound camps pollute the environment. To continue with that sort of "self-expression" without consideration for their neighbors is irresponsible.
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Postby Mozy bonz » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:35 pm

I just disagree with the approach not the effort or the end result.

I did a sound check at BM 06 and 90% of the sound systems I came across where to large for there space and crowds they played to. And yes I think a sound camp that won’t work with the people next door should be shut down until the problem can be solved. (The sound camp should be doing what’s called (sorry for the term it’s not mine) wimp check. This is where you check people in front of stage to see if they have ever been to a concert and have they ever been in front of stage. Do they know what to expect. Offer them earplugs ( I had a box of 100 at BM 06 for any one that would take one)and keep an eye on them so you can help them when they start to have the problems you know they will have. People running around with meters may work I don’t know I think you will just piss people off more. People can be made ill with these systems. It’s not fun especially when you can’t get out of the line of fire.
I have spent about 27 year in front of sound systems. You start to see why a performance has problems. I can’t begin to tell you about the fights between sound engineers and artist on how the music sounds out front.


So to be clear it’s 100% the sound camps responsible to make it right for every one in the city not for the city to make it right for them.

So happy hunting I don't think I was disagreeing with you.
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Oct 07, 2006 1:47 pm

its obvious i am not the only one who sees that question for what it really was.



the option to get actively involved is open - just talk to jafe.
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Postby BoxaRox » Sat Oct 07, 2006 2:44 pm

I did a sound check at BM 06 and 90% of the sound systems I came across where to large for there space and crowds they played to
.

For the sake of discussion, I'm going to split a hair and disagree with you. Sound is BETTER when the system is "oversized." Only downside is that, then, you need an engineer who knows when to say when.

Which leads to our second "disagreement." *GOOD* engineers *don't* need rules. (AND if the rules are well-crafted, they won't get in a GOOD engineer's way) However, the neighbors don't have problems with a GOOD engineer. Not usually.

Unfortunately, there are more BAD ones than good ones. The rules are fer the idjots.

So happy hunting I don't think I was disagreeing with you.


I agree that our similarities are probably stronger than our differences. (Which may mean that our differences will be a lot louder than they have to be.) I don't mind that at all as long as you're shouting what YOU think and not what *I* should be thinking. Sometimes love gets loud. ;)
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Postby Ron » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:06 pm

spectabillis wrote:its obvious i am not the only one who sees that question for what it really was.


Wow, did you get a special ruby for your forehead when you got those mind reading powers? Nice to know you can divine my intent, and gain a greater understanding of it than I myself have. Did that telepathy come with your moderator status, or after it? And who died and made you the arbiter of who was and wasn't actively involved in the issue, or whom one would have to talk to in order to be so?

Now all of those questions *are* rhetorical and attempts to bait you. There's a bit of a difference in them, in tone and wording, than the one I posted before, eh?

Here's a bit of Truth for you. You have *no* idea what my question was "really about." You could ask me, and believe my answer, or you can keep your misunderstanding. But I know me and my intentions far better than you do, S.B.

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Postby Ron » Sat Oct 07, 2006 4:19 pm

Now maybe just because I'm old and cranky but this exchange has reminded me of another experience that was instructional for me.

You all have experienced the hecklers at the burn, I'm sure. Some drunken fuck-wit with a bullhorn, thinking that they are the next Richard Pryor, spouting half assed shit over the air. Or so one could describe nine out of ten of them, IMHO. However, I've a friend who does, indeed, take heckling to an art form.

The man is all but insane. Says stuff you wouldn't believe. Likes to riff on the idea of Larry Harvey being a pedophile. This year he had a whole 40 minute bit on DPW, drug use, and bodies buried in deep playa. It made DPW look so bad when a DPW rig pulled up half the audience left for fear of being seen laughing. The DPW folk in question found his B.S. *very* funny, btw, and much fun was had by all. My friend is so funny and outrageous that you split your sides laughing. Or get very pissed off and run away crying. Or something.

So one night he was on a full throated rant outside some portapotties. Just going off on this, that and the other, loud enough with his natural voice to set up resonances in the johns. It was something. Finally, after 30 minutes or so, someone asked him to please be quiet. And my friend did so, quickly stopping his rant. Within moments another man approached my friend and asked him why he had stopped.

"Well," my friend said, "This man says my noise has been bothering him. So I stopped."

"Hmmm," said his new visitor, "Well, I say your silence bothers me. Please continue!" And so he did, for another half hour or more.

:)

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Postby spectabillis » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:17 pm

even if you say otherwise, being directly followed up by two others is enough to call it in question. i am more than willing to give someone the benefit of doubt, but it doesnt look good.


and the oportunity is still open.
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Postby Mozy bonz » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:24 pm

BoxaRox wrote:
I did a sound check at BM 06 and 90% of the sound systems I came across where to large for there space and crowds they played to
.

For the sake of discussion, I'm going to split a hair and disagree with you. Sound is BETTER when the system is "oversized." Only downside is that, then, you need an engineer who knows when to say when.

Which leads to our second "disagreement." *GOOD* engineers *don't* need rules. (AND if the rules are well-crafted, they won't get in a GOOD engineer's way) However, the neighbors don't have problems with a GOOD engineer. Not usually.

Unfortunately, there are more BAD ones than good ones. The rules are fer the idjots.

So happy hunting I don't think I was disagreeing with you.


I agree that our similarities are probably stronger than our differences. (Which may mean that our differences will be a lot louder than they have to be.) I don't mind that at all as long as you're shouting what YOU think and not what *I* should be thinking. Sometimes love gets loud. ;)



Ok you sucked me in.

I don't disagree with any thing you just said here. And you clearly understand that a sound system should not push 5000 watts just because it can. I am all about fidelity of the music not how loud I can make it. Loud makes my head hurt.
But when you have a stage for 1000 people you don't need a system for 15,000 people.

You would never see a real sound company do that. And most of theses people are not real sound companys.

clearly jafe is on the right track with training people with the use of meters. Should probley be most the people with the sound systems.
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Postby spectabillis » Sat Oct 07, 2006 5:24 pm

BoxaRox wrote:..Unfortunately, there are more BAD ones than good ones. The rules are fer the idjots.


i am not convinced yet the majority falls somewhere around abuse, only a more detailed guage of the number of sound camps with measurements can show that. but i hope that people also realize the natural tendency many people at the event are going to have to establishing more authority. sure, its probably yet another case of some fucking things up for the rest of everyone else that gets rules enforced.

but its also why i like jafe's approach so much. smart guy, knows the various influences, and definately has a more positive approach to it.
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