Commerce - questions, violations, and reporting them

We're doing it wrong...we know

Postby Badger » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:10 am

Just as there is a forum for tickets, wouldn't a forum for on-playa theme camps fundraisers be appropriate? But then, there's the burden of proof .... In general I haven't had a problem with fundraisers


But then you crash into the issue of groups on the periphery of theme camps wanting to do 'fundraising' for their Burny Friends event that are basically fundraisers for rent and groceries. You'll undoubtedly get the wailing of If-s/he-can-why-can't-I complaints.

Guaranteed.
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Postby AntiM » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:06 pm

I agree completely.
we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . .
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Postby capjbadger » Thu Aug 03, 2006 12:32 pm

Motion Seconded. All those in favor?

AYE :)
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Postby Kinetic IV » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:20 pm

Aye!
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Postby hawks » Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:41 pm

I truly feel that camps need to raise their own money, else scale it down a bit if you can't come up with the dollars. Somewhere I think there was something about self sufficiency, where'd that go?? Just all feels a bit big business to me.

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Postby capjbadger » Thu Aug 03, 2006 2:15 pm

hawks wrote:I truly feel that camps need to raise their own money, else scale it down a bit if you can't come up with the dollars. Somewhere I think there was something about self sufficiency, where'd that go?? Just all feels a bit big business to me.

The Hawk Man

Hmm.. I honestly don't have any problem with a camp holding a bake sale/party/raffle/etc to raise funds for their camp. My issue is with them doing so on this forum which has been agreed upon as a non-commerce area much like the playa itself. (tickets of course being the exception)
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Postby capjbadger » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:41 pm

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Postby AntiM » Thu Aug 03, 2006 6:58 pm

Got 'em.
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Postby smash » Thu Aug 03, 2006 7:00 pm

Yes Smash, while cross posting isn't against any written rule, it is viewed as very bad form to "spam" the same message all over a board.


Please take this in the nice way that I mean it, but I really do take exception to being lectured by other EQUAL members of this community -- newbies, long time burners, rangers, whatever. I'm not saying you "can't" say what you want, but you gotta know how sucky it feels to be on the receiving end of someone being condescending. In contrast, it was really cool to see how respectful the moderator was upon deleting my posts! :)


However selling things here (other than the special case of the ticket sales area) if forbidden. Period. "I'm selling X for $Y dollars. Contact me to make transaction." Commerce pure and simple.


Actually, you're factually incorrect on this point. Here are a few examples of fundraisers being posted, some with ticket prices, some with direct links to send money. I'm not saying you have to agree with the posts, I'm just saying that this isn't a hard and fast issue the way you're saying -- this IS actually a gray area.

viewtopic.php?t=13698&highlight=fundraiser
viewtopic.php?t=13587&highlight=fundraiser
viewtopic.php?t=13366&highlight=fundraiser
viewtopic.php?t=13041&highlight=fundraiser
viewtopic.php?t=12211&highlight=fundraiser


Smash, you are right on one point. I was needlessly rude to you and you didn't deserve that. Please accept my apology.


Thank you, I'm pleasantly surprised to see you say that! Please come by the Smoochdome sometime and say hi. I'm sure we'll have a much looser and friendlier interaction in person. Who knows, we may even find that we become good friends. :D
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Postby Ron » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:39 pm

Not only does it feel sucky to be the object of such derision but it looks sucky to see it happening. Frankly, I'd say that camp fundraisers deserve just as much an exception to the no commerce rule as does selling tickets on e-playa. Giving them their own area seems like a a great idea to me. Don't want to see 'em? Don't go there and look. Just like ticket sales. But that's just me and I'm weird.

Fundamentally I'm mostly glad I don't have to actually enforce the rules. Kudos to those who do...

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Postby Kinetic IV » Thu Aug 03, 2006 11:48 pm

Well, so much for that argument. The cites speak loud and clear, we are already on the slippery slope.
Perhaps it's time to rethink this and see if we're able to slide under control or if it's the beginning of an avalanche.
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Postby smash » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:24 am

Ron wrote:Frankly, I'd say that camp fundraisers deserve just as much an exception to the no commerce rule as does selling tickets on e-playa. Giving them their own area seems like a a great idea to me. Don't want to see 'em? Don't go there and look. Just like ticket sales.

You know, it would be very easy to slightly tweak the existing Theme Camp section to find a specific place for fundraisers and parties...

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Exchange camp ideas, find places to camp, announce your events and fundraisers, etc.
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Postby Bambi of Finland » Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:36 am

Can I just say, Welcome! It seems you've survived your "trial by fire"
OOps , maybe I should go do that in the Greeters Thread. Somebody please kick my ass.
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Postby blueniteowl » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:07 am

*kick*

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Postby capjbadger » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:03 am

smash wrote:Please take this in the nice way that I mean it, but I really do take exception to being lectured by other EQUAL members of this community -- newbies, long time burners, rangers, whatever. I'm not saying you "can't" say what you want, but you gotta know how sucky it feels to be on the receiving end of someone being condescending. In contrast, it was really cool to see how respectful the moderator was upon deleting my posts! :)

I was not lecturing. You appeared to not know, so I gave you the info. Simple. :)

smash wrote:Actually, you're factually incorrect on this point. Here are a few examples of fundraisers being posted, some with ticket prices, some with direct links to send money. I'm not saying you have to agree with the posts, I'm just saying that this isn't a hard and fast issue the way you're saying -- this IS actually a gray area.

viewtopic.php?t=13698&highlight=fundraiser
viewtopic.php?t=13587&highlight=fundraiser
viewtopic.php?t=13366&highlight=fundraiser
viewtopic.php?t=13041&highlight=fundraiser
viewtopic.php?t=12211&highlight=fundraiser

While I agree that some people have posted fundraisers here in the past, since when did a few people doing the something against the rules invalidate the rule itself? Follow this for a extreme example:
"Murder is bad."
"But thousands murder ever day."
"Oh, I guess murder is ok then."

Extreme (and admittedly a little silly) example, but you get what I'm driving at here. Burning Man has some principles it was built on. Some people going against those ideas doesn't mean we throw the principle out the window.

Now if the community as a majority want to have a fundrasier area on here, groovy. But make a choice one way or another. How many "exceptions" are we going to allow? Where do we draw the line?

smash wrote:Thank you, I'm pleasantly surprised to see you say that! Please come by the Smoochdome sometime and say hi. I'm sure we'll have a much looser and friendlier interaction in person. Who knows, we may even find that we become good friends. :D

Well I'm told I do surprise people quite a bit. ;)
I like to think I'm big enough to admit when I'm wrong. But challenge me when I'm right and I'll fight you to the death. ;) hehe Plus I love a good debate. :)
I'm working/camping with the Lamplighters this year. I'll make sure to swing by and look you up. *hug*

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Postby spectabillis » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:04 am

smash wrote:You know, it would be very easy to slightly tweak the existing Theme Camp section to find a specific place for fundraisers and parties...


*beats his head against the wall*
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Postby capjbadger » Fri Aug 04, 2006 9:11 am

spectabillis wrote:
smash wrote:You know, it would be very easy to slightly tweak the existing Theme Camp section to find a specific place for fundraisers and parties...


*beats his head against the wall*

While that may be soothing to you, words might be more informative here. ;)
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Postby Ron » Fri Aug 04, 2006 10:24 am

capjbadger wrote:....
I was not lecturing. You appeared to not know, so I gave you the info. Simple. :)


And some insults and derision for good measure. You've apologized for that and I'm not trying to rub your nose in it or anything, but am pointing out that the above summary misses a very salient point.

capjbadger wrote:....While I agree that some people have posted fundraisers here in the past, since when did a few people doing the something against the rules invalidate the rule itself?


Since we raised the speed limit or cops choose not to ticket all the folk going 10 miles over. Since we decriminalized interracial marriage. Not to mention ending that prohibition thing and let us not forget that the whole idea of civil disobedience, one of the U.S.'s greatest contributions to philosophy IMHO, is based on the very notion that if lots of folk are breaking the law/rule it's probably a bad/unjust law or rule.

Just to run with your example. :)



capjbadger wrote:....Burning Man has some principles it was built on Some people going against those ideas doesn't mean we throw the principle out the window.


And was one of those principles, "No informing other Burners of your fundraiser on eplaya?" No it's no commerce. But look, there's already all kinds of commerce on the playa itself. Given that it's hard to believe allowing camps to promote their fundraisers would be a substantive drag on the online community. Especially if such an area was clearly marked and optional for viewing. Just like those coffee sales on playa, we get by in the face of that apparent violation of the no commerce policy just fine, don't we? Why do you think listing fundraisers would be more damaging to the no commerce attitude than is allowing coffee and ice sales in BRC itself?

And, BTW, if the principle in question were "LNT," or something I'd be all with you on the side of preserving the status quo. :)

capjbadger wrote:....Now if the community as a majority want to have a fundrasier area on here, groovy. But make a choice one way or another.


Oh, are we a democracy now? Do we get to vote? I'd doubt it, frankly. But I'd enjoy being wrong on that one. And do agree with the sentiment of making a decision and sticking to it.

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Postby spectabillis » Fri Aug 04, 2006 7:24 pm

capjbadger wrote:
spectabillis wrote:
smash wrote:You know, it would be very easy to slightly tweak the existing Theme Camp section to find a specific place for fundraisers and parties...
*beats his head against the wall*
While that may be soothing to you, words might be more informative here. ;)


not in this case, it was a fair suggestion that cant be implemented due to lack of resources - a frustrating lack of resources.
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Postby diane o'thirst » Sat Aug 05, 2006 12:11 am

Another Sony/Ericsson attack. This one's by Babalola. Real cheeky, there's even a Nigerian address.

viewtopic.php?t=13906&highlight=
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Postby capjbadger » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:34 am

Blatent commerce. This guys is asking for it. Kinda silly...

viewtopic.php?t=13922
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Postby capjbadger » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:10 am

Hey Smash... Kinda of a silly sidenote. Something I just ran into due to one of the Mod's posts. There is actualy something in the TOS about rules against cross posting. heh And I thought it was just general fourm etiquette.
One learns something new every day. :)
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Postby Ron » Sun Aug 06, 2006 11:28 am

spectabillis wrote:....
not in this case, it was a fair suggestion that cant be implemented due to lack of resources - a frustrating lack of resources.


I don't understand this. What resources does it take to add another sub-group to the board?

Not doubting your word, mind, just not understanding...

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Postby spectabillis » Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:08 pm

aparantly, adding major topics is not so easy as it seems, even cleaning the current odd structure of "::burning man for the other 51 weeks." link thing. cant remember the technical explanation given off the top of my head though.
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Postby Rockdad » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:24 pm

spectabillis wrote:aparantly, adding major topics is not so easy as it seems, even cleaning the current odd structure of "::burning man for the other 51 weeks." link thing. cant remember the technical explanation given off the top of my head though.


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Postby Kinetic IV » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:42 pm

if it was only that simple....
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Postby capjbadger » Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:49 pm

Yeah, I got the impression that it was all very "plug and play" too.


Perhaps the mods could just create a sticky for fundrasiers in one of the areas that already exsist?

Provided of course was want to go down that road...
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Postby spectabillis » Sun Aug 06, 2006 2:14 pm

i had that impression as well. i think its also discussed in one of the feedback topics in "topic structure" or some such title. its somewhere with the discussion of flat structures like tribe, vs. organized into main areas like now.

i have yet to climb into the guts of phpbb, dont really want to, so i go on what others tell me.
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Postby capjbadger » Thu Aug 10, 2006 12:12 pm

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Postby geekster » Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:52 am

viewtopic.php?t=14082

Commerce
spam
evil
kill kill kill
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