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We're doing it wrong...we know

How do you feel about the current ePlaya structure?

It's great!
5
7%
Works for me, but could be improved.
10
14%
Never found it a problem.
20
28%
OK, but could use some work.
13
18%
It really needs work.
12
17%
What were you guys thinking?
5
7%
What day is it again?
7
10%
 
Total votes : 72

Postby actiongrl » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:17 am

(To be accurate, the idea wasn't mine, really, and in fact it was III and precipitate who brought it up to me during a phone call, and I think III was calling it "The Porta-Potties" thread. :) )
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Postby geekster » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:25 am

Since people often do and say stupid things in the heat of battle, maybe posts in a war-zone thread should have a finite and short life to allow heaing between flame wars.


I agree. The cages should be hosed down on a fairly tight interval. I don't expect there would be reason to keep that content more than a couple of weeks and then it should expire out.
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Postby geekster » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:29 am

And my reason for saying this, is as you say, people say things in the heat of emotion that they probably wish they hadn't upon reflection and additionally, there is no need for someone to stumble upon those words at some point far in the future and breathing life into a long-dead horse.
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Postby Tancorix » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:43 am

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Postby spanky » Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:39 pm

geekster wrote:I think the Lost and Found thread should be brought back fairly early since this is fundraiser season and there are a lot of peripheral events going on.


I agree and sounds totally reasonable. AG? Ms. Sparkle? Turn it on today?

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Re: Will the old e-Playa be back?

Postby spanky » Tue Mar 15, 2005 3:57 pm

Observer wrote:Sorry to be contributing to the problem of topic drift, but the system wouldn't let me start a new topic when I tried, just now.


Right. We are reopening the rest of the threads after a debate about the way things are organized. Whether it works for people or not.

Observer wrote:My question: will the url http://oldbbs.burningman.com start working again?


Yes, I will put it on my plate to get it rolling again.

Observer wrote:I heard that some hacker gained root level access to the boards and wiped out the archives.


Yes and no. Yes we got hacked due to a security hole in phpBB. I don't think we lost the old boards, we just had a lot of other things to get back up first. Then once we got the critical stuff running, we went out and got drunk and forgot the old ePlaya. I'll poke back in there and take a look.

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Postby LeChatNoir » Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:08 pm

Hey spanky!!

When logged on earlier today (+/- 2:30 PST?), I noticed someone appeared on my Buddies list, but not in the list of those logged on. I suspect the hidden member/buddy list thing may still be a problem. Just an FYI.

And I’m gonna second Wind_Borne, et.al. So far, I think I like the idea of a “war zone” that gets a good cleaning at regular intervals. Wish there was no need for it period, but hey... such is life.

my $0.02

Good work, you guys...
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Postby spanky » Tue Mar 15, 2005 4:19 pm

LeChatNoir wrote:When logged on earlier today (+/- 2:30 PST?), I noticed someone appeared on my Buddies list, but not in the list of those logged on. I suspect the hidden member/buddy list thing may still be a problem.


psst...over here:

viewtopic.php?p=150382#150382

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Postby Observer » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:07 pm

Wind_Borne wrote:
So I like AG's notion of creating a place, a war-zone, for those that want to do battle -- a safety valve for pent up pressure. Since people often do and say stupid things in the heat of battle, maybe posts in a war-zone thread should have a finite and short life to allow heaing between flame wars.




I would have to respectfully disagree with you, in part. I like the idea of creating a warzone, and agree that there is some wisdom in recognizing the need for a place where that "pent up pressure" can be released. But I have to take serious issue with the idea of having posts expire at all, much less having them do so quickly. I hope that you don't think that I'm accusing you of being up to something or not meaning well, but you know the one about how those who forget history are doomed to repeat it? The history on this one is really, really bad.

I can still remember the bad old days on Usenet, pre-Dejanews, when posts would scroll off the board after two weeks, and nobody would really have any way of knowing what had happened, once the posts had vanished. It was a troll's dream come true. A popular game to play was to choose a target, and lie outright about what he had written and what had gone on, seeing if one could whip the lurkers and newbies up into a frenzy over things that had never happened, getting the target ganged up on, demonized and (in many cases) harassed. What having no long term archiving meant was that when the target tried to make a case in his own defense, it was always "my word vs. his word", and as flamers like to travel in packs, guess who got believed? The last thing that was promoted by this state of affairs was peace and understanding.

A battleboard without archiving strikes me as being a great resource for people who want to start rumors at other people's expense, without having to worry about those other people turning around and rebutting their comments or confronting them about their actions. Without naming names, I've seen a number of people (some of them present now) who've used flame threads to take potshots at people who haven't been seen on e-Playa for years. I have a little difficulty with the idea that the mods should choose the settings so that people who do this have a better chance of doing so completely behind somebody else's back. The absent person being talked about would be denied the opportunity to ever be able to really defend himself, because if he's away, he'll never have a chance to know what was said about him, in a place where tens of thousands of people can see it.

We don't have to guess about where that leads, because that experiment was already tried on Usenet in the early 90s. Usenet became known as being a great place to libel and defame people, without fear of having to face any consequences, and the tone of the place got so bad, that eventually even Congress took an interest, passing the infamous "Communications Decency Act" of 1996. Things got so bad that the general population was comfortable with the idea of the first amendment being shredded. I don't see that as being a good situation to bring back, even locally, but maybe some people feel otherwise.

My feeling is that, as somebody said here, "if you've got the balls to attack somebody on the board, you should have the balls to go on record as having done so", or something like that.

Just my 2 cents worth. YMMV.
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Postby GuinivereElise » Tue Mar 15, 2005 6:34 pm

My feeling is that, as somebody said here, "if you've got the balls to attack somebody on the board, you should have the balls to go on record as having done so", or something like that.


I'm of this school of thought, too. Thanks for putting it so well, observer.
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Postby helitack » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:28 pm

And heli will be accused of cross posting but it is time to let "the members" start tossing in some thread topics. Release the hounds!
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Time

Postby sputnik » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:38 pm

Does anybody really know what time it is, does anybody really care?
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Postby sputnik » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:41 pm

Yes Heli. Time for action.

How about a beer first?
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Postby helitack » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:44 pm

Sure Sput, here's a Black Label from the stash.
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Postby geekster » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:11 pm

To repeat something here that I posted in another forum ... my opinion is that there should be three different kinds of threads or possibly even areas:

1. Closed threads that are simply information such as announcements, FAQ's, lists of URLs that point to information elsewhere on the BMorg website.

2. Pre-Moderated threads where a posting must be cleared by someone before it appears. This would possibly be used for threads where the org might have some response. I would expect the number of these threads to be minimal. An example might be theme camp or DMV or volunteering types of questions that are not answered elsewhere on the website and require clarification by someone.

3. Post-Moderated threads where discussion happens between anyone. in these threads a posting appears as soon as it is made but can be pulled down in cases of questionable value, etc. I would expect the moderation to be use with ... well ... moderation. I wouldn't expect to see it used very often and then only as a last resort.
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Postby bullD » Tue Mar 15, 2005 11:45 pm

geeky, I know you mean well but, 1 and 2 are the same thing, if done properly.

sleep my friend, then elaborate more tomorrow.
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Postby joel the ornery » Wed Mar 16, 2005 9:23 am

geekster wrote:people say things in the heat of emotion that they probably wish they hadn't upon reflection


self-restraint, anyone?
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Postby Rob the Wop » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:15 am

My $.02

Flame wars tend to start over disagreements in other threads. The most noted would be some of the political threads. You're not going to stop that from happening unless you moderate everything, give the combatants a 'time out', and remove the posts in question. And then you run into the problem of what exactly is a flame when it comes to a heated discussion.

Me, I like the idea of a 'rumble cage'. I have a fairly thick skin, and most of the insults are far less than what me and my brothers greet each other with. Except less 'yo mama' jokes. Doesn't work too hot when you have the same mother.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:32 am

GuinivereElise wrote:
My feeling is that, as somebody said here, "if you've got the balls to attack somebody on the board, you should have the balls to go on record as having done so", or something like that.


I'm of this school of thought, too. Thanks for putting it so well, observer.
Dispite the fact that I still feel a little huffy towards Stuart and I know that I'm making myself at least a minor fool of myself thereby, I agree.
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Re: It's big nasty world out there kid, go out and make us p

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:34 am

joel the ornery wrote:
geekster wrote:people say things in the heat of emotion that they probably wish they hadn't upon reflection


self-restraint, anyone?
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Re: Popcorn in the peanut gallery.

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Mar 16, 2005 10:36 am

Rob the Wop wrote: most of the insults are far less than what me and my brothers greet each other with. Except less 'yo mama' jokes. Doesn't work too hot when you have the same mother.
I've heard different theories about that. There's 1) the the Wop family was all born at once like a litter of puppies and 2) that you are the result of yet another cold war experiement gang awry and have too many mothers and fathers (ie genetic doners) to count.
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Warriors, Warriors, time to come and play....

Postby joel the ornery » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:14 pm

helitack wrote:And heli will be accused of cross posting but it is time to let "the members" start tossing in some thread topics. Release the hounds!


ditto
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Postby stuart » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:28 pm

come on, you're taking a minor gripe from another board and bringing it back here when we are all trying to start fresh like?
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Mar 16, 2005 12:50 pm

stuart wrote:come on, you're taking a minor gripe from another board and bringing it back here when we are all trying to start fresh like?
yup. Sorry to be so declasse, but I feel like you ride me on this. The title of that thread seemed to me to be asking for those sweeping broad things. MEanwhile someone on on "nurture your inner food snob" says something like ~I eat shark because shark would eat me~ and gets off scot free for a much more pernicious overgeneralization. It didn't help that I feel like a total newb over there and I felt very called on the carpet--plus all those 3playans chimed in directly. It fed my insecurities and I admit it was about the perception of your tone.

If it makes any bloody difference--I have openly admitted that I am making a fool of myself. I believe I've done it twice. And if I'm really that over the top, plonk me and leave me alone.

Or you could decide that I'm generally okay, and just privately roll your eyes when I go to far.

Or find a way of saying "you're overgeneralizing" that's a bit gentler and doesn't leave me on the defensive.

or engage me on those matters to find out why it's so much energy.

And yes maybe my ideas of the identities of the board is more fluid. I had hoped I'd proven myself well enough over here that you could let that slide there. Oh well.

*a most foolish fishy*
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Question--Best place (thread) to ask?

Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Mar 16, 2005 5:26 pm

So the "page width" sticky is interesting. The thread is said to have been begun by GuinevereElise, even though it was really begun by Spanky. And certain threads pertaining to the idea were pulled out of hte other (parent) thead. Is talking about that form of thread creation interesting to anyone, or is that just too refined a subject?
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Postby GuinivereElise » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:29 pm

not sure where this bit of feedback goes:

has anyone else noticed a lengthened page-load time? not just the thread pages, which, of course, will take longer to load because there are more posts per page now, but even the main index page takes at least 4 times to load.

(and crypto: I was running with the assumption that the width thread was created that way to facilitate feedback, though I don't expect them to be created like that in the future. Can I tell you how suprised I was to see that I had "created" a thread?? )
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Postby Nightterror » Wed Mar 16, 2005 6:37 pm

The universe was created by GuinivereElise
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Re: Question--Best place (thread) to ask?

Postby spanky » Wed Mar 16, 2005 7:19 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:So the "page width" sticky is interesting. The thread is said to have been begun by GuinevereElise, even though it was really begun by Spanky. And certain threads pertaining to the idea were pulled out of hte other (parent) thead. Is talking about that form of thread creation interesting to anyone, or is that just too refined a subject?


I used the "split topic" feature which allows me to start a new thread from selected posts of another one. The thread becomes owned by the first thread poster. Pretty nifty if you ask me. Maybe it was splitting hairs.

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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:14 am

Well, I thought it was kinda neat, and I wondered if in the new, more actively moderated eplaya universe it was going to become an occasional occurence. I believe that we've already seen some "thread melding" (maybe that should be "togetherspinning") of two topics into one. (Or two partial topics into one more complete one.) When you are talking about how the Lost and Found forum might be moderated, I can see the melding. And certainly there have been spin-off discussions within one thread that might make a new one. Of course, given what a cantankorous bunch we are, having that happen too often might put us out of joint, but it's interesting to know that that tool exists.
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Postby Isotopia » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:22 pm

people say things in the heat of emotion that they probably wish they hadn't upon reflection and additionally, there is no need for someone to stumble upon those words at some point far in the future and breathing life into a long-dead horse.


On the other hand....

A while back on another board there was a contentious and highly charged discussion re. inclusion/exclusion of potential camp members. Feelings were hurt, some insults happened and there was more than a bit of acrimony and hurt feelings. It wasn't very pretty. What I found interesting though was how the discussion unfolded and people on both sides of the issue had their say in the matter. Some folks left and never returned, others were grateful for airing the wound which was growing more septic as the topic remained more about whispers and mumbling than saying what some felt needed to be said. In the end things worked themselves out but going back and looking at it still doesn't make for a pretty read. What I think *is* important about the topic though is that it makes for some very interesting reading by people who might find themselves in a similar situation. In fact, i think its a very interesting snapshot of how some online group dynamics come into play around an issue that can by no measure be considered unique - especially for people contemplating a large camp. I guess what i'm saying is that there are (or should be) exceptions to erasing some older, more contentious threads just because they don't represent the best displays of character.

Just something to chew on....
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