OK to sell stuff as a fundraiser for a camp?

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OK to sell stuff as a fundraiser for a camp?

Postby HughMungus » Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:57 am

That is, is it OK to be selling things and post about it here as a fundraiser for a camp because if so, that might enable my camp to go to Burning Man this year.
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Re: OK to sell stuff as a fundraiser for a camp?

Postby capjbadger » Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:38 am

HughMungus wrote:That is, is it OK to be selling things and post about it here as a fundraiser for a camp because if so, that might enable my camp to go to Burning Man this year.

I recall this same debate flaring up last year, but I don't remember what the outcome was (if any).

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Postby AntiM » Mon Jul 09, 2007 12:45 pm

Still no. And if you're waiting to jump on the ebay auctions for Dark Skies/Singularity, bear in mind that's a regional event, not a theme camp. They did not ask permission to post, I just caught up with it today myself. I've brought it up to the other mods for review, just waiting for input. Feel free to discuss, please.
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Postby Archantael » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:10 pm

I hope the Dark Skies post gets wiped out. Commerce is commerce.
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Postby Dork » Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:16 pm

Archantael wrote:I hope the Dark Skies post gets wiped out. Commerce is commerce.

It has. I didn't notice the "Ebay" part when I initially saw it and assumed it was an event. There are plenty of other more suitable and likely more effective places to advertise items for sale.
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Postby spectabillis » Mon Jul 09, 2007 6:00 pm

fyi : new fudraiser policy discussion - viewtopic.php?p=325780#325780

thank you antiM!
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Postby HughMungus » Fri Jul 13, 2007 12:32 pm

Thanks. Now I understand the difference.
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Postby mdmf007 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 10:13 pm

viewtopic.php?p=390381#390381

Selling at its finest
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Postby AntiM » Wed Jul 09, 2008 8:02 am

I disagree, hence it stays. It is a transportation service directly related to on-playa shipment of camp supplies. Much like a rideshare wherein you pay for fuel costs. I doubt these folks are making a profit from this, I don't have a problem with it. Eplaya is non-commerce arbitrarily.

Now if they were selling t-shirts to fund their camp, that would go.
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Postby mdmf007 » Wed Jul 09, 2008 11:46 am

well, I did post it in the right thread so there. :lol:
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Postby AntiM » Wed Jul 09, 2008 12:30 pm

I f I weren't so lazy, I'd check case studies to see if badger beat you to it. So there.
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Postby capjbadger » Wed Jul 09, 2008 1:27 pm

Nah, mdmf007 beat me to it. :D

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Postby Toolmaker » Thu Jul 10, 2008 3:26 am

mdmf007 wrote:http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?p=390381#390381

Selling at its finest


Indeed it is..

Did ya notice the rates?

What a great business idea.. and really profitable too with rates like that. I might just do this next year to go to the burn for free.. this is a better racket than camp "fees".
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Postby mdmf007 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:44 am

the rates they are charing will net quite a pfrofit if they can load to capacity.

looks to be a little more than simply funding their camp, and if it is - I want to camp with them!!!!

If I knew I could do this, I would have tasked half a dozen tractors. from SF, Seattle, SLC, LA, etc.

50 cents a pound - our tractors GVW at 105,500 70,000# of it cargo.
so thats 35,000$ a tractor load??? And they sell water.

yeah - I think you'll see us next year with all your playa logistics needs met.
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Postby gyre » Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:15 am

I've thought about this.
If I can't interest my driver in the burn, I don't know how to handle that though.
I have a trailer I could use now.


We just caught two taggers at my trailer.
They are facing felony vandalism and $10,000s of damages.
They are lucky I wasn't there.
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Postby capjbadger » Thu Jul 10, 2008 2:53 pm

gyre wrote:We just caught two taggers at my trailer.
They are facing felony vandalism and $10,000s of damages.
They are lucky I wasn't there.

Nice! Glad they were caught. Little bastards....

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Postby gyre » Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:21 pm

If you can suggest a shop capable of reproducing the factory baked paint on a 48 foot trailer, that would be helpful.
It's a reefer, so I don't know if that is even possible.
They need estimates to decide what class felony they will be prosecuted for.

They are 17 and may be passed to juvenile court.
Neighborhood groups that have been fighting this sort of thing may join together to oppose this.
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Postby jmdinn » Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:57 pm

i posted a long response under the last thread, the seattle shipping service thread:

viewtopic.php?t=24698

i know badger caught it. maybe i should have put it here?

we're not using a container or a full commercial trailer. we rent a truck. there's about 500 cu. ft. of space available or about 2.5 tons of weight capacity available. adjust your math accordingly and you'll get a sense of our projected expenses.

in any case, i get the sense that someone on this thread is connected to shipping in some way? Gyre? something about tasking trailers?

personally, i think a consolidated shipping service for local burner communities would be terrifically beneficial. my perception is that the larger theme camps in the Seattle area organize and consolidate their shipping, but the thousands of individual burners have a "I'll just pack my car and drive" attitude. possibly true of other burner communities within driving distance of the event?

i think if someone had the resources and contacts to organize a centralized consolidated shipping service for local communities, it could do a LOT to encourage carpooling/ride-sharing. and that, to me, is no small way to keep our event more sustainable.

i think that's closer to what the container shipping camps do from the more distant burner communities, like NY and Boston.

and the following is some cut/paste from my previous post in the hopes that someone bites.

Help?
if someone has suggestions on how we could better serve our community, or lower our overhead, i would seriously LOVE to talk to you.

actually, if someone has experience projecting costs for this kind of project, and wants to help with their expertise, that'd be incredibly helpful.

and anyone that has experience organizing a truck or container for the community? i'd LOVE to get your perspective

chat off list? pros-cons? advice? warnings?
you can email me at burngreenexpress@gmail.com
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Postby gyre » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:35 am

Ask mdm and these other guys.
It can be done cost effectively, renting or buying a trailer.
You don't need a cdl to drive for noncommercial purposes.
You do need to know how.
It can be done cost effectively.
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Postby AntiM » Fri Jul 11, 2008 7:21 am

But you DO need a CDL for a tractor-trailer rig if you are crossing state lines. You are flat wrong on this one Gyre. This is determined by weight and size, and is a federal regulation, whether commercial or non-commercial. Inside a State is different, but once you cross the state line you need special licensing.

STOP saying you don't need a CDL! Someone may believe you and get their ass busted big-time. We had this conversation last year.
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Postby gyre » Fri Jul 11, 2008 1:26 pm

I checked and every source I could find confirmed the personal use exemption.
I can try to check again.
I found no rule like this.
I thought we did settle this last year.
Hauling other people's stuff could be an issue.

Where should I look next?
I need to be sure myself.
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Postby AntiM » Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:35 pm

Hauling other people's stuff seems to be a big no-no, that classifies as commerce form everything I could find. California is very strict about the size of vehicle, number of axles and so on. Nevada requires class a and B licenses for big RVs. There is much variance state to state, so it is hard to pin down. There are phone numbers for the folks in charge of commercial vehicles for each state, I suppose with a little footwork you could get answers.

But basically, would you want an untrianed driver pushing a rig through a bunch of states and not sticking to the hours of service? Scares the hell out of me.
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Postby gyre » Fri Jul 11, 2008 4:27 pm

As you know, I believe in quite a lot of driver training for any driver.
It is mostly a matter of personal responsibility in this country.
I have offered to train a few people I know in emergency techniques.
No one has ever taken me up on it.

Everywhere I have searched, I have found the rv type exemption down in the small print.

I think it is mostly about driving within one's abilities.
Some people can't drive a sport ugly vehicle without rolling it over.
I'm certain I could drive a semi cross country on freeways in clear weather with no issues.
I wouldn't want to try to back up through staggered gates though.
The guy that moves my trailer for me could do a circus act backing up.
He learned on multi-jointed farm equipment as a kid.
All he can tell me is he drives the trailer, not the tractor= POV.


I just heard of a blacksmith delivering a crate on a small pickup style flatbed.
He was pulled over after a weigh station and fined for every state he went through as a commercial truck.
Huge fines!!!
Abuse of power in my opinion, but apparently it can get that bad.
What you say can always be crucial.
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Postby mdmf007 » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:28 pm

So heres the skinny as I have been schooled by USDOT and all the states in the west.

U do not need a CDL for a rig under 26000 Pounds, or without air brakes. Thats a seperate issue - any DMV can tell you if a rig you plan on driving yourself can be legally driven by you and whatever license you have. Loookup your rig at a DMV site theres lots of resons you would need a CDL

On the business end of things though it gets even murkier. Hauling freight for anyone makes you a common carrier.

INTRASTATE = No crossing state lines. You can do it Intrastate pretty easily. Dont cross state lines, you and your NON cdl rig only need to pay your taxes and be insured.

INTERSTATE = crossing state lines, you will need a USDOT number and account (free) as well as a USDOT (CVSA Sticker works) inspection. This is free if done by a State Officer on the side of the road (you dont want this) or as much as 250 bucks at an authorized site. Even if your rig does not need a CDL to drive, you will need the USDOT number, Insurance, and Inspection. its a felony in some places to not have these items. Only exemption to the USDOT rules is if you are under 10000# GVW. a ford F350 is over 10000

So to recap:

Intrastate - Non CDL
1. Need a business llicense,
2. and insurance
3. CDL (if required per vehicle)
4. Logbook if your more than 100 air miles from your home base and still in your home state.

Interstate - Non CDL Rigs at a minimum
1. USDOT Number
2. Business License
3. Authority
4. Appropriate insurance
5. Business License
6. USDOT inspection (CVSA)
7. CDL If required for your situation, 16 passengers (paying) over 26K, Air Brakes, Hazardous Materials, and there are some others.
8. Logbook. ( a Misdeamenor in NV, WA, OR et.al. if not filled out daily and accurately. Get in a wreck and its not done - now its a felony)
9. Fresh Weight Scale Ticket, unless it is painfully obvious your under (deadhead etc.

Only exemption to paid cargo interstate for the above is to items 1, 6, 8, and 9 if the vehicle is under 10000# GVW. Felony in WA, OR, And NV otherwise

Also - You still are responsible for narcotics in your rig though, fireworks, and any other contraband - so remember that as well. Thats a double edged sword being an unlicensed common carrier.

On the one hand the tropper asks you "is this your stuff" (your going down for transporting drugs.)

On the other hand he asks "Is this your stuff?"

"No Sir, we are hauling this for money" You say.

Now you get a ticket for not having a manifest, (unles you declare the drugs on it - then your guity of knowingly transporting again), being an unlicensed commercial carrier, and whatever he can think of depending on his mood.

If you want some formulas for expenses on hauling gear and logistics factors PM me an address and ill drop some to you.

FYI - Common carriers are getting 3 bucks a mile on the low end 3.50 on the high end. More for specialized carriers, like reefers, step decks, lowboys etc.

RV exemptions may still require a CDL if it has Airbrakes, is over 26k etc. A lot of truckers register their tractors with Sleepers as RV's to save tax money. Other licensing loopholes are for "Not For Hire" on the side of a truck. This means that BOEING truck only hauls BOEING owned equipment on its BOEING owned and operated trucks. this eases some of the regulatory requirements.

Logbooks are exepmted only if you are within a 100 mile air circle of your home base. for intrastate carriers. Outside that you have to habe one even Intrastate/

Id just make sure theres no drugs, that would be my biggest fear.
You wont have any problems with a rig the size your talking about. I envisioned you guys with a B Set

Similar to this little guy:
Image

later
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Postby gyre » Fri Jul 11, 2008 6:53 pm

Yes, the air brake thing comes up in a lot of states.
Obsolete law, but that's why a lot of RV people change them over.

Pulling a container, I would think you could easily go over 26000 pounds.
I researched all this but I forget what the loopholes were on weight.
It's always better to keep your weight down, of course.
There are also storage exemptions, which helps me out at the moment, though some of my trailers are fully dot legal, except perhaps tires.
I got the newer ones due to floor damage.
They are currently unsafe for forklifts, fine for anything else.


I have been researching storage and trailer locks and security, if anyone is interested in what I found.
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Postby AntiM » Sat Jul 12, 2008 8:15 am

Thank you mdf007.
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Postby gyre » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:28 am

I am told that even where the federal law defers to state law, once you cross state lines, you are under federal rules.
Of course, you are still under each state's laws, as well.

I would think the co-operative movement of stuff would be non-commercial.
I also think it is better to avoid this conversation.
Caution should be used in the way you label anything and what you say.

It was mentioned to me that many people use trucks and buses for burning man without understanding how suspensions work.
Trailer Life carries some good books that go into detail on making sure your suspension is adequate and proper loading.
A heavy load that can move can kill you.

Minimum requirements are not a stopping place.
Better shocks, springs, steering dampers all can add to your ease of driving and safety.
Ant-sway bars can be added to any vehicle.
IPD and others can make them for any vehicle.

I am also a big believer in better headlights and reverse lighting.
Side turn signals, brighter daylight chmsls, euro headlights, hard braking alert lights, are approaches I use.
It is probably not a good idea to use these on a heavy vehicle until you ask.
The state here has the attitude that more is fine as long as you meet the minimum standard.

Make sure your tires will handle your weight.
I am told that even on a very light trailer, specific trailer tires pull easier.
UV degradation over age destroys many trailer/RV tires.
Dedicated tires from michelin, etc have extra protection, but usually fail internally before they wear out.

I have had tires that appeared fine and failed once on rougher freeway due to flexing.

Also a DOT inspector can tie your vehicle up until court, even if you are right.

If your vehicle is safe, especially safer than the minimum, you may be excused when you are in technical violation of the law.
Just depends, but it has worked for me more than once.
Some times safety really is the issue.
Communicating an awareness of safety and limitations goes a long way.
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Postby fciron » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:11 pm

I was pulled over and questioned about being an unlicensed carrier while driving a passenger van with a small sign on the side. Turns out the police in that area had been asked to keep an eye open earlier in the week.

You could get pulled over for this and the bigger your vehicle the more likely it is.

As I said, I was pulled over in a passenger van that said 'Metal Museum' on the side. So it is not like I was a suspicious character.
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Tagger Opera

Postby gyre » Sat Jul 12, 2008 12:36 pm

capjbadger wrote:
gyre wrote:We just caught two taggers at my trailer.
They are facing felony vandalism and $10,000s of damages.
They are lucky I wasn't there.

Nice! Glad they were caught. Little bastards....

Badger
One of them is 18.
The story now is that they were chased at over 70 mph in midtown with shots being fired at them.
There were many police in the area at the time.

The detective asks them why they didn't signal the police?
They had a cell phone. Why didn't they call the police?
They were too scared.

Why didn't they go the the police stations they were very near to?

I was afraid they would be good liars.

This must be a common accusation.
I was accused of shooting at a little thief once before.(not one that got shot)
The prosecutor called me.
I asked if he was there with them.
They said yes.
I asked if he had any holes in him? No.
I told them that if I had shot at him, he would have a hole in him, and to tell him that.
They seemed satisfied with that response.

To be continued...
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Postby mdmf007 » Sat Jul 12, 2008 9:41 pm

Gyre -

Sucks for those little bastards. While I like some graffiti and recognize the art. It is appropriate in very few places, the side of Gyres trailer is not one of them.

Whats with the shooting at them, and high speed around town chase thing? Even if you had chased them all over town Gyre, that still isnt a free pass to paint all over others property.
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