Antibiotics Camp

Postby helitack » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:07 pm

Not to argue but...........are you saying that Physicians should not be paid for their work? They have a clinic to support with the income generated from patients. Gotta pay the nurse, the rent, the PA if they have one, the receptionist, the bills. Welcome to the real world.
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Postby Dark Cipher » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:17 pm

helitack wrote:Not to argue but...........are you saying that Physicians should not be paid for their work? They have a clinic to support with the income generated from patients. Gotta pay the nurse, the rent, the PA if they have one, the receptionist, the bills. Welcome to the real world.



What?! No way. He's got every right to charge what he charges, but what I'm against, is that its immoral for him to not allow the pharmacy to give prescriptions that are written from any other doctor other than him. Its not like its a liability situation, its just a corrupt system to force patients to pay the high fee for his "evaluation" of the ailment. Hell, one guy there had stitches on his hand, and a DOCTOR at one of the medtents sewed it up, and he was then sent to Gerlach to get antibiotics. They wouldnt accept the doctors prescription, and forced the patient to pay to see the doctor ($200.00) in order to gain access to the prescription he needed.
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:18 pm

Dark Cipher wrote:
unjonharley wrote:I can only hope one of those drunk DPW worker are there if I have another heart attack. They would know what the prudent thing to is.


Oh so suddenly things have changed, and you expect help from the DPW workers when you need it? Maybe you'll have a heart attack, and lie there dying because the DPW worker felt that because you didn't come prepared (RADICAL SELF RELIANCE) you didn't deserve to be helped.


~
As in saying a drunk DPW in preferance to you. And I do have my ass covered in case of a heart attack. Being prepared by bring my son and pre paid life flight.
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Your wrong here also. My first heart attack was from an inflamed heart sack. What you think they gave me? And I walked to the hospital in the middle of the night so I wouldn't kill some one with my driving.
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Postby Dark Cipher » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:22 pm

unjonharley wrote:Your wrong here also. My first heart attack was from an inflamed heart sack. What you think they gave me? And I walked to the hospital in the middle of the night so I wouldn't kill some one with my driving.


:shock: Well, and thats why I'm not a doctor. :lol:

Nevertheless, my point still stands, and still am not sure I understand what the DPW thing was all about then.
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Postby helitack » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:23 pm

Can't dance 'les ya pay the fiddler.
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:25 pm

[quote="Dark
What?! No way. He's got every right to charge what he charges, but what I'm against, is that its immoral for him to not allow the pharmacy to give prescriptions that are written from any other doctor other than him. Its not like its a liability situation, its just a corrupt system to force patients to pay the high fee for his "evaluation" of the ailment. Hell, one guy there had stitches on his hand, and a DOCTOR at one of the medtents sewed it up, and he was then sent to Gerlach to get antibiotics. They wouldnt accept the doctors prescription, and forced the patient to pay to see the doctor ($200.00) in order to gain access to the prescription he needed.[/quote]

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Postby Badger » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:25 pm

Oh so suddenly things have changed, and you expect help from the DPW workers when you need it? Maybe you'll have a heart attack, and lie there dying because the DPW worker felt that because you didn't come prepared (RADICAL SELF RELIANCE) you didn't deserve to be helped.



Dark Cypher, that's called inductive reasoning . Specifically it's what's referred to as a unrepresentative anecdotal example. A rusty tool to pull out of your box if you want to go head-to-head with some of these folks.

The problem with using such an attempt to trump an argument is that they're often not conclusive. In fact they're often dismissed especially when it is shown that the premise is either not true or incorrect.

Unfortunately, your above statement meets both criteria.

<plonk>
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Postby Dark Cipher » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:34 pm

Badger wrote:
Oh so suddenly things have changed, and you expect help from the DPW workers when you need it? Maybe you'll have a heart attack, and lie there dying because the DPW worker felt that because you didn't come prepared (RADICAL SELF RELIANCE) you didn't deserve to be helped.



Dark Cypher, that's called inductive reasoning . Specifically it's what's referred to as a unrepresentative anecdotal example. A rusty tool to pull out of your box if you want to go head-to-head with some of these folks.

The problem with using such an attempt to trump an argument is that they're often not conclusive. In fact they're often dismissed especially when it is shown that the premise is either not true or incorrect.

Unfortunately, your above statement meets both criteria.

<plonk>


Glad to see you plonked out before you even TRIED to make an attempt to show how my statement was untrue or incorrect. Very bold of the many of you to make blanket statements, and then decide you're done with the topic. Very interesting.
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:35 pm

Dark Cipher wrote:

:shock: Well, and thats why I'm not a doctor. :lol:


~
You should have some running idea of whats going on before you big skeem is put into gear. Not very prudent of you runing off half cocked. Did you try to help your friend with any topical relief? Or are going to tell me you were ill prepared again?
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Postby Dark Cipher » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:40 pm

unjonharley wrote:
Dark Cipher wrote:

:shock: Well, and thats why I'm not a doctor. :lol:


~
You should have some running idea of whats going on before you big skeem is put into gear. Not very prudent of you runing off half cocked. Did you try to help your friend with any topical relief? Or are going to tell me you were ill prepared again?


The statement made above was directed at your heart attack issue, not the issue at hand of having the med tents have access to antibiotics at BM.

Topical treatment for a UTI?????? Obviously you don't what you're talking about when it comes to being a doctor either. Maybe we should leave that to the doctors at "Burning Pee Sorry No Antibiotics Man", to properly diagnose and treat the ailments.
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Postby Badger » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:51 pm

Glad to see you plonked out before you even TRIED to make an attempt to show how my statement was untrue or incorrect.


You made the invalid argument. Not me. Ain't my job to walk you through the flaws of your deficient reasoning to make a point for you. The world doesn't work like that.

Read your ticket then maybe we'll talk.
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:56 pm

Dark Cipher wrote:
unjonharley wrote:
Dark Cipher wrote:

:shock: Well, and thats why I'm not a doctor. :lol:


~
You should have some running idea of whats going on before you big skeem is put into gear. Not very prudent of you runing off half cocked. Did you try to help your friend with any topical relief? Or are going to tell me you were ill prepared again?


Topical treatment for a UTI?????? Obviously you don't what you're talking about when it comes to being a doctor either. Maybe we should leave that to the doctors at Burning Pee Sorry No Antibiotics Man, to properly diagnose and treat the issue.


~
Topical "relief". You said the ride into Reno would be hard on your friend. Or is it you didn't want to drive that far? For christ sake man I was mairred for over 40 years with 6 kids to take care of. A lot of the time they got what I could offer and a wet wash rag to suck it up on. The kids know what to do for themselfs today. By learning what I learned from Grand ma. Doctors have called me a fair country doctor. And I'm not afraid to committe my self to first aiding in a pinch. There are ways to keep the swelling down until care is found. Not wait days hopeing thng will change.
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Postby Dark Cipher » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:02 pm

Badger wrote:
Glad to see you plonked out before you even TRIED to make an attempt to show how my statement was untrue or incorrect.


You made the invalid argument. Not me. Ain't my job to walk you through the flaws of your deficient reasoning to make a point for you. The world doesn't work like that.

Read your ticket then maybe we'll talk.


Well, seeing as this is the "Burning Man Community Discussion Board", I just thought it might be appropriate if you DISCUSSED what you thought was invalid about my "argument."

:roll:
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:07 pm

I have to stop playing now. The cat wants his diner.
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Postby Dark Cipher » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:15 pm

unjonharley wrote:
Topical treatment for a UTI?????? Obviously you don't what you're talking about when it comes to being a doctor either. Maybe we should leave that to the doctors at Burning Pee Sorry No Antibiotics Man, to properly diagnose and treat the issue.


~
Topical "relief". You said the ride into Reno would be hard on your friend. Or is it you didn't want to drive that far? For christ sake man I was mairred for over 40 years with 6 kids to take care of. A lot of the time they got what I could offer and a wet wash rag to suck it up on. The kids know what to do for themselfs today. By learning what I learned from Grand ma. Doctors have called me a fair country doctor. And I'm not afraid to committe my self to first aiding in a pinch. There are ways to keep the swelling down until care is found. Not wait days hopeing thng will change.[/quote]

No. My point is that instead of having to drive for a few hours getting to RENO, it would be really NICE if they instead just had a supply of Antibiotics, or at least UTI pain medication on hand at BM accessible to doctors in the med tent if they needed it to help a patient. Thats my point, and there's nothing wrong with it. A few agree on here, and the rest of you, well, I hope you never have a UTI or get strep out there, because if you do, you'll be out at least another 250.00 bucks, on top of your BM ticket price. I almost wish there was a seperate med tent ticket, then maybe someone could revoke your ability to be admitted into one if you get sick, and then you'd be forced to leave the playa to deal with your issues. Many of you people are stuck in your little box of life, and cant seem to look on the outside of it at all. Its really too bad that after going to BM you still feel somehow that things are how they are, and they cant change, and shouldn't. Blah Blah Blah. Excuses, and lame reasons, with nothing to back it up with.

Cynic said it best:
"Ask yourself this question. What would Burning Man be if it was 35,000 people all looking out for their own ass......defiantely not a place I would want to be. It would be a lot like the world outside...a place where people are quicker to criticize, than help and support. ....It's hilarious how an initial post of expressing a desire for such simple (and critical) things as antibiotics/medicine can turn into such a debate of symantics and tireless dancing around the subjects only clouding the issue further with more ignorant, unanswerable questions."
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Postby Dark Cipher » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:18 pm

unjonharley wrote:I have to stop playing now. The cat wants his diner.


Maybe you should teach your cat some radical self reliance so he isnt so dependant on you... or well.. you probably like it that way.. having a sense of control over your cat.
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Postby Dark Cipher » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:25 pm

Well, I think I've stated my point here and proved my reasons for it. Also, I think I'm just about done feeding the trolls, so if anyone has anything supportive of this idea, the please post it up! Otherwise, if you don't have anything intelligent to say, don't. :wink:
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Postby Badger » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:58 pm

Well, I think I've stated my point here and proved my reasons for it.


Edit to say:

"Well, I think I've stated my point here and <delete></delete> my reasons for it."
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a few things about antibiotics:

Postby Rusted Iron » Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:09 pm

There is a science to selecting the right antibiotics for an infection. You wouldn't give erythro for cellulitis and you wouldn't give any antimicrobial for a viral pharengitis, (which is easily mistaken for strep throat, without testing, first.)

Also, you have to be pretty sure what you're treating. If someone came to me saying they have a UTI, I'd have them piss in a bottle then dip a Uristick in it. If there were white blood cells, nitrites and perhaps a bit of blood and protein, I'd agree. If not, I'd have to do a pelvic exam and look for a vaginal infection which could cause the same symptoms, or a rectal and check out the prostate. (I'll leave it to you to figure out which patient which exam is applicable for. And no, I won't be doing either on the playa...)

Someone mentioned allergic reactions--they only happen to people who have already had exposure to a given substance. Your immune system has to have a memory of it, to develope a reaction. So you may have taken penicillen 20 times without a problem, then on the 21st, out come the hives and the throat that swells shut...

Anyone with a history of UTIs should be able to get an rx written and filled ahead of time. It's done all the time, along with scripts for the prevention of traveler's diarrhea. Most family doctors are agreeable.

I bring a well-stocked first aid kit for members of our camp. It includes bottles of keflex and erythro. In 6 years, I've never given them out or any other prescription med. (Tylenol and advil? Sure. Wound care? Plenty.) I bring them along, just in case but the circumstances would have to be really right before I gave them out. I don't think I'd feel comfortable giving an rx out to someone I didn't know. I'd be risking my license along with their health.

We drove a generator to Reno to get it repaired. A person shouldn't be that much harder.
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Re: Antibiotics Camp

Postby spectabillis » Tue Jun 28, 2005 8:54 pm

Dark Cipher wrote:Last year we had to leave to get to Gerlack and the Med center there RIPS PEOPLE OFF. They force you to see their doctor there before getting a perscription... and to see the doctor for a 5 minute visit, its like over 200 bucks... not including the cost of the prescription.


Not to be presumptuous, but is that part true?

Edit: I meant also in respect to the following

... for him to not allow the pharmacy to give prescriptions that are written from any other doctor other than him.. They wouldnt accept the doctors prescription, and forced the patient to pay to see the doctor ($200.00) in order to gain access to the prescription he needed.
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Re: Antibiotics Camp

Postby ratgirl » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:13 pm

[quote="spectabillis"][quote="Dark Cipher"]Last year we had to leave to get to Gerlack and the Med center there RIPS PEOPLE OFF. They force you to see their doctor there before getting a perscription... and to see the doctor for a 5 minute visit, its like over 200 bucks... not including the cost of the prescription.[/quote]

Not to be presumptuous, but is that part true?[/quote]


yes, it unfortunately is true. I have experienced firsthand what dark cipher is talking about. that is why I can agree with him that it would be a nice idea to have antibiotics closer, for example at the med tent. I'm not saying that I expect anyone to provide them for me, just that if it were available I would agree with, and support the cause. of course, since I had the gerlach 200$+ experience, I pack antibiotics with me now whenever I plan on going out of town anywhere. but for people who have no history of uti's, or for people who have to get their thumbs sewn up, or the myriad of other possible needs for antibiotics, it would be extremely beneficial.
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Postby Isotopia » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:17 pm

Edit: I meant also in respect to the following


Agreed. I find that part pretty damn amazing (not at the claim) and certainly worth raising some hell about. Probably too late to do so but, well, fuck. If that's the case it sure as hell sucks.
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Postby spectabillis » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:03 pm

Yep, sounding like people taking advantage of others in a serious situation.
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Postby Janka » Wed Jun 29, 2005 2:28 am

Well, helitack, in my opinion, no one should get a discount. But if someone else wanted to gift their professional skills, time, and money, hell, I'd be all for that, too.

I think sometimes it is difficult to strike the balance between gift giving and self-reliance. Either extreme kills the other. If you give everything, no one needs to rely on themselves. If you demand everyone is completely self-reliant, the sharing vanishes. What I think we need is everyone being as prepared as they best can, and then helping each other out.

Dark Cipher, maybe the aspect of self-reliance has diminished, but I disagree with you that what people should do is just let it go and "enjoy the event for what it is". Burning Man, in my opinion, should not be something you go to and enjoy as what it is, it is something you make. For me, self-reliance is a big piece of the experience. I will help out my neighbours, of course, but if someone comes in expecting me to do their camping for them, I am also going to bitch about it. ;)

I agree on the beverage sales, though.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:42 am

Okay, the Gerlach medical clinic is financed by the state of Nevada for the express purpose of providing basic medical care to an isolated population. I'm certain it runs at a loss every year. It is not part of their business to provide medical care to the festival. It is a general weakness of our national health care "system" that "self-pay" or cash payers pay more than HMO, Medicare or other groups that can make deals and enforce economy of scale upon health care providers. True in the Nevada desert and the wilds of urban Oakland. The clinic actually extends its hours to accomadate the festival, but I don't expect to get doctor care except at an emergency room during any weekend in the San Francisco Bay Area much less during Memorial Day Weekend (well maybe some working poor public access clinics on Saturday.)

THe medicine practiced by REMSA and ESD is Emergency Medical Care designed to save a patient's life in the short term and prepare for transport if nessesary. THe microscopes, labs, bloodwork ect that would result in properly prescribed antibiotics would be an expensive addition to the REMSA contract (anyone want to keep that stuff clean in a desert--what about playa dust in the electronic equipment?) and might require specialty personel. This would result in a rise in ticket prices. HOw much more are you wiling to pay? $25? $50? $100? Medicine is expensive. And liabilty does come into play. THere are laws that protect first responders and my husband carries his own malpractice insurance. I imagine the standard ups considerably for prescriptions. And how many persons actually need this specialized care each year? A dozen? I can't imagine it's as many as 25. That's a lot of extra bucks for a small benefit. And in most cases, if you need antiboitics, you need to be off playa. (I'd rather not be sick there.) If some doctor wishes to take it upon himself to give out broad spectrum antibiotics to persons he does not know that's his decision. I imagine he would wish to be discreet about it.

Think of hte $200 as a choice you made to avoid the inconvience of going to Reno. 5-6 hour round trip, gas, possible hotel room. IT may be cheap at the price. And did you submit it to your insurance carrier? You may even have been able, under the circumstances, to get a partial repayment. (And given the size of the Gerlach clinic, it's ridiculous for them to havea specialisit on staff who knows how to deal with the forms and procedures for all the various insurance carriers in the country. And that is what it takes these days--a specialist in almost every general practice whose sole duty is to fill out forms.)

So someone google Fernley and Wadsworth (a savings of one hour each way) and find out if there's a pharmacy there, what the hours are and post it, because that's going to be a lot more useful for us all.
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Postby Kinetic IV » Wed Jun 29, 2005 8:55 am

A Google local search for "Pharmacy" in Fernley and Wadsworth, NV comes up with:

Scolari's Food & Drug Company: Pharmacy
(775) 575-5065
1400 US Highway 95A N
Fernley, NV 89408

Everything else seems to be in Reno, Sparks or Lovelock. I also ran the search on Empire and Gerlach just to cover all the bases and of course nothing came up.

Edit: I called and verified that the number was good, the recording says they are usually open 9 to 7 MDT, and the recorder's address is a match.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:13 am

One thing that really should be said is that both Dark Cipher and Cynik had really stressfull, scarey, unsettling and miserable experiences. Insofar as they are trying to protect others from those experiences they are to be commended. I've had to deal with medical emergencies on playa and it is hard. I don't agree with the opinions and some of the choices that they have and have made, but I will never pretend that it was a cakewalk for either of them. Maybe we can cut them a little slack for the experience, although I don't believe that in either case the experience renders them an expert on solutions.

so, Dark Cipher and Cynik, I'm sorry your burns were so crappy last year.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:19 am

ratgirl wrote:this thread really caught my eye because this is something my long time doctor has been expressing an interest in doing for several years now. he's been interested in going to burning man to volunteer his time helping sick or injured people who might need it.
<snip>

I'm sure if dr. lee was able to find pharmeceutical companies to donate medicine at the top of everest, then it would make sense that this could be a possibility for the burning man community as well.

Two things
1--it might be better for Dr. Lee to check into what facilities and services we already have before "going gonzo" and providing them himself.
2--Big Pharm may not want to donate if they can't use the Burning Man name for publicity purposes, and the LLC may not want to give it to them.
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Postby Badger » Wed Jun 29, 2005 10:42 am

I'm sure if dr. lee was able to find pharmeceutical companies to donate medicine at the top of everest


He was able to do so because he went there specifically to do field research into the effects of high altitude sickness. Specifically he was looking at how to reduce the possibility of high-altitude illnesses such as pulmonary and cerebral edemas both of which are very real concerns when climbing/visiting areas that are over 15,000' in altitude. When doing a research - especially something that's obscure and peer-reviewed many drug companies will contiribute part of their inventory to the study becaues they might benefit in some way. Members of the Everest team that Rich(ard) Lee was part of - many of them doctors themselves - knew what was going on in that they agreed to be part of the study before it ever took place. Working and dispensing within a control group of volunteers is quite different from setting up shop to provide non-emergency medical services to a large group of strangers who're able to provide little or no medical history to a doctor at a small understaffed facility located in a semi-open hostile area of the desert..

As I mentioned earlier, my doctor here at the SU is into wilderness medicine. I guess I didn't mentione HOW much into wilderness medicine.

He's the same Rich(ard) Lee (Stanford Family Practice Group) referenced above by Ratgirl and by me/Isotopia prior to her post.

Small world.

http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?t=9009&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
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Postby ratgirl » Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:22 am

[quote="Badger"][quote]I'm sure if dr. lee was able to find pharmeceutical companies to donate medicine at the top of everest[/quote]

He was able to do so because he went there specifically to do field research into the effects of high altitude sickness. Specifically he was looking at how to reduce the possibility of high-altitude illnesses such as pulmonary and cerebral edemas both of which are very real concerns when climbing/visiting areas that are over 15,000' in altitude. When doing a research - especially something that's obscure and peer-reviewed many drug companies will contiribute part of their inventory to the study becaues they might benefit in some way. Members of the Everest team that Rich(ard) Lee was part of - many of them doctors themselves - knew what was going on in that they agreed to be part of the study before it ever took place. Working and dispensing within a control group of volunteers is quite different from setting up shop to provide non-emergency medical services to a large group of strangers who're able to provide little or no medical history to a doctor at a small understaffed facility located in a semi-open hostile area of the desert..

As I mentioned earlier, my doctor here at the SU is into wilderness medicine. I guess I didn't mentione HOW much into wilderness medicine.

He's the same Rich(ard) Lee (Stanford Family Practice Group) referenced above by Ratgirl and by me/Isotopia prior to her post.

Small world.

[url]http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?t=9009&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0[/url][/quote]


wow, it is a small world- dr lee is great!

okay, so I'm not saying that one doctor would be able to provide antibiotics to all of burning man, that is pretty far fetched. but my point is that if one doctor is interested, there have got to be others who might be interested as well. call me an optimist, but usually where there is a will there is a way.... despite all of the legalities, red-tape, and bureaucracy, I'm sure that there would have to be a way...

I've paid out of pocket for antibiotics before and I think it was around $60 or $70. I would gladly pay that to the med tent at BM for antibiotics rather than the $200+ to the gerlach clinic, but that's just me. and just think, 60$ is roughly= to 30 chai's at center camp. :lol:
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