Antibiotics Camp

Postby unjonharley » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:18 pm

cynik, Lots of words from you. Many of us arrive at BM in less than good shape. But ready for most anything. My first time to BM I was mostly blind. Came well prepared and had a ball. Just the same as when I go on any camping trip. On extrem climbing trips I don't expect to have a doctor waiting at the top. I knew in advance to come prepared or face the worst. Have woke in a morning in a hammock 100's of feet in the air. In need of medical help. Also knowing it was at least a days climb to help. Dug around in my 11 lb. napsack and and first aided myself. Got the fuck off the climb and to help. Burning Man ""is"" extrem!! A lot of the 30.00 plus refuse to belive this. That's what life flight is all about. If some one has to look for three days to find a doctor they again didn't come prepared."""Doctors are found at med tents""" If` you can't understand that you best stay home.
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come prepared to survive at burning man, or don't come.

Postby joel the ornery » Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:49 pm

cynik wrote:This is a great idea. Absolute genius. Anybody who would criticize this should first suffer an illness out there and then see if you still feel sharing medicine to be "stupid" or illegal...


"stupid" due to liability laws, "illegal" based upon controlled substance laws, both of which a majority of the people's representatives approved to protect the populace. come prepared to survive at burning man.

cynik wrote:Last year, a friend came down with a nasty case of strept throat in the middle of the week.


i am curious as to when your friend arrived which might assist in identifying when the incubation period began... i hope someone gave your friend some thrat lozenges and plenty of water. i hear that helps.... oh yeah, come prepared to survive at burning man.

Prevention
In normal everyday life, there is no perfect way to avoid strep throat infections. At home, when someone is sick with strep throat, it's always safest to wash drinking glasses and eating utensils with hot soapy water, and to wash your hands often as you care for the affected person.
Care of a patient with strep-caused rheumatic fever usually requires medical specialists who may recommend ways to avoid future strep infections.

Incubation
The incubation period for Group A strep throat is usually 2 to 7 days after exposure.

Duration
In Group A strep throat infections, fever typically stops within 3 to 5 days, and the sore throat passes soon afterward. Antibiotic therapy is usually completed within 7 days. If symptoms have improved, and the patient is without fever, she or he may return to school after 24 hours of antibiotic treatment. It is important, however, that they continue to take the full course of prescribed antibiotics even after they are back in class.

Contagiousness
Strep throat is contagious, and strep bacteria can be passed through contact with the nasal or throat fluids of someone who is infected. After completing two days of appropriate antibiotics, one is no longer contagious. Estimates are that in a home where someone already has strep, about one out of every four family members will get it, too. There are also cases where persons, especially children, can be carriers of strep bacteria without having any symptoms (asymptomatic carriers). This means that the bacteria are present, but not causing any apparent problem or disease. Among school-age children, 5% to 15% may be asymptomatic carriers of strep bacteria.


come prepared to survive at burning man.

cynik wrote:Probably one of the most miserable things to happen in that environment.....We went into the med tent repeatedly. No help whatsoever. After a lot of suffering and sleepless nights, we hitched a ride in an ambulance to Gerlach at 6am to go to the clinic.....No help again, they just happened to be closed for the long memorial weekend. WTF! Since when does injury/illness take the weekend off, especially at BM? Eventually, we got back to the playa and miraculously found a camp with a yellow van that was kind enough to gift a Z-pack.

Nobody can plan for every possible illness and injury that could happen out there, and to think otherwise is absurd.


count me in as an absurbist. come prepared to survive at burning man.

cynik wrote:So lets try and keep an open mind here people and not criticize something, especially something like this...because this year, it just might be you suffering out there wishing for medicine.


come prepared to survive at burning man.

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Postby Dark Cipher » Mon Jun 27, 2005 7:14 pm

"RADICAL SELF RELIANCE" ????

"Apples to oranges" ????

"come prepared to survive at burning man." ????

Are you people for real?!?!?

Most doctors will not (and SHOULD NOT) prescribe antibiotics unless you currently HAVE an infection, unless there was some sort of surgery that was performed and its being used as a preventative measure. Antibiotics are not something that you can "plan ahead and bring" like dry ice, a cooler, and beer, when the infections can come out of nowhere, and hit you FAST. it doesn't matter when the strep infection took place, it matters that the infection hit HARD in the middle of the week, and there is NO WAY to prepare for that kinda of thing happening. Thats like telling someone to bring antibiotics with them every time they go out to eat sushi, just because the fish might have harmful bacteria on it that could potentially make you sick.

BM has EMT type stuff in spade because it’s needed out there. The reason BM has EMT and stuff is because it’s a CITY of 35,000+ people. and when 35,000+ people are around at one week long event in the desert, it requires at least SOME level of EMT and Larry Harvey knows it, as does everyone else that runs BM. There is NO POSSIBLE WAY to preconceive getting strep throat, or accidentally getting a UTI so I don't want to hear any of this "you should have planned ahead" B.S.. The Gerlack medical clinic is only out for themselves (and isn’t always open...EVEN DURING BURNING MAN), and wont even FILL a prescription from their in-house pharmacy unless their personal doctor sees you....for 200+ dollars.
My girlfriend called her doctor, and he called the Gerlack clinics pharmacy person, and they denied the request for antibiotics because they wanted to make the 200.00+ dollars on the case. Hell, when my girlfriend went in to see their doctor in Gerlack, all he did was ask if she was allergic to anything, and what her symptoms were, and then prescribed an antibiotic. That was it. (After 2.5 hours of waiting in the lobby, talking to other BM people that were in there with various problems.) When you have a UTI, it’s really serious (as ANTIM knows well) and the extra time in traffic and what not to drive to RENO isn't always the best idea. When you have an infection like one of these, time is of the essence, and having the doctors that are already working at Burning Man be able to diagnose and prescribe antibiotics out of the med tents or other medical service areas would be the best scenario. Also, alot of other things require antibiotics as well... like stitching a finger back on.
Usually when performing a surgery this severe, doctors will sometimes prescribe antibiotics as a preventative measure. The medical services already offered at BM are very good and the people working it are very friendly, although the addition of having antibiotics available at the event would be a most worthy and welcome addition for the hundreds and hundreds of people that become injured, or accidentally contract a completely unexpected infection.

Actiongrl: I don’t know if you've ever had a UTI, but its EXTREMELY PAINFUL, and symptoms can come on REALLY fast.... the only way to relieve the pain and prevent becoming completely sterile is to take a specific UTI PAIN medicine with a regimen of antibiotics, and usually less than 8-12 hours later, you'll feel completely fine again and ready to have a good time back out on the playa! So in that case, I don't believe that leaving the playa should necessarily be the end all be all solution when there's already tons of Med stuff on site...offering antibiotics on the playa would be a welcome addition to help treat people faster, and keep them healthy so they can continue to have a good time, and participate without going through the hassle and expense of leaving and being made to wait and wait and wait at the med clinic, and then only to find out that you're getting ripped off as well.


If Burning Man was really all about RADICAL SELF RELIANCE, like many of your are so strongly suggesting, then there wouldn't be Port-a-pottys, water trucks, med tents, a coffee and chai bar at center camp, and plenty of other things....

Damn, I don’t even want to get started on the Coffee and Chai bar at centercamp. :( ARRRGH.. I'm sure the Chai Guy understands that one.

Isotopia said: "whinging about not having the event provide facilities and drugs to treat one's itchy cock rash or yeast infection that happens because someoine didn't bring the rubbers or forgot to douche. "

No ones talking about irritating fungal infections here. We're talking about fast onset bacterial infections. There’s a BIG difference.

Isotopia said: " You're essentially asking that the Project provide for you a means to make your stay on the playa an easier more comfortable experience by expecting yet another service which reduces your personal responsibility."

Prescribing and administering antibiotics is in no way whatsoever is a reason to lower ones own personal responsibility, and in fact, it has nothing at ALL to do with ones own personal responsibility. How the hell was not getting Strep Throat, or a UTI someone’s personal responsibility? It happens. And it’s unexpected. And no amount of water spritzer douching like antiM suggests is the 100% solution to the problem. But nice suggestion! lol.

Obviously (and hopefully) noone comes to BRC *EXPECTING* to contract a UTI or a Strep Infection, and we didn't *EXPECT* the EMT at BM to have antibiotics, but I was surprised when I found out they didn't.. Especially because they are sewing peoples fingers back on, and treating almost a thousand accidents/injuries per week.

Isotopia said: "It really is no different from other suggestions made in the past such as trash pickup, recycling, ability to tap into the energy grid, or provide condoms to fuck, or (my favorite) provide needles for IV drug users."

I'm sorry, but there's just no connection between the stupidity of people making a conscious choice (Ohh!! This years theme! :) ) to purposely inject themselves with intravenous drugs on the dusty playa in the middle of the desert, and this issue of antibiotics. As for providing condoms, I agree, it’s an EXTRA.. of sorts, for those who weren’t responsible enough to bring their own. but this in no way relates to accidentally contracting a bacterial infection. Hell, it doesn't even require sex to contract a Urinary Tract Infection.

As for you Isotopia, you seem to be one of the forum (eplaya) trolls around here, and it seems you have a knack for thinking your opinions are the only ones that count, or trying to find a solution to everyone’s problems with a holier than thou attitude, while insulting and berating them with sarcastic flaming retorts. It’s easy to see who you are by simply doing a search on the forums and seeing what type of responses you normally post around here, and seeing as you have a history for stirring the pot so to speak, it doesn't surprise me in the least that you're trying to do it here too, in this thread. If it wasn't for the occasional help you offer in the form of answer you provide to people asking questions on these boards (probably to stroke your own ego), I'd guess that your account would have been deleted a LONG time ago.

Anyway, enough of that.. and back to the REAL topic of this thread:

A UTI or Strep is not something that’s 100% preventable, and its something that’s almost impossible to even foresee, although these type of infections *are* things that can be quickly treated and resolved with today’s technology and available resources, and hopefully those resources can be available at BM in the med tents someday, so people don’t have to waste time (which puts their health further at risk), and money on a Gerlack health clinic that rips people off - and might not even be open, all on an issue that could have been resolved with a 15-30 minute trip to the med tent.
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:06 pm

Dark, Did you ever read your FUCKING TICKET??
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:19 pm

Just like some guy to shove his responsibility off on some one else. If you don't know enough to not fuck in the dirt you should'nt be fucking at all.
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Postby Dark Cipher » Mon Jun 27, 2005 8:21 pm

unjonharley wrote:Dark, Did you ever read your FUCKING TICKET??


Yes I did, Did you read my LAST POST?!?! Sheesh.
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Postby Janka » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:25 am

Joel, to put it short, as I understand it, the major difference to concern here about Finnish and US legal systems, I think, is the way how compensations for damage are defined, making it less attractive to sue in order to "win". People tend to only go to court if they seriously think there is something criminally bad going on (or they need a civil case like a divorce settled, but that's a different matter).

Also, there is a route for handling "patient complaints" that is usually gone through before court. It, among other things, makes a decision possible where the patient has suffered damage, but the doctor did not "actively" cause it (by malpractice or carelessness), in which case the patient gets some compensation (there's some kind of a state insurance system where the money comes from, I think), but the doctor is not punished. (The same route can result to loss of lisence from the doctor, and other drastic things, I think, though I am not certain at which point an actual court of law steps in. One can always complain to some court thingy anyway.)

If you are really interested, I can find out the details, formulate better why I consider it "more reasonable", and try meet you with some alcohol on the playa. :)

Most doctors will not (and SHOULD NOT) prescribe antibiotics unless you currently HAVE an infection


I do not know of your doctor, or anyway doctors in the US for that matter, but so far in Finland I have never heard of anyone, who would have gone to a doctor to explain they are about to spend time in the wilderness and could they get prescription drugs just to be prepared, being refused. I think taking antibiotica with you is even recommended for certain kind of travel, but that's more extreme (weeks in jungles, etc :)).

Of course, maybe BRC does not qualify as "wilderness" for doctors who actually know it. Hereabout "Nevada desert" tends to invoke more drastic images. ;)
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Postby Dark Cipher » Tue Jun 28, 2005 4:27 am

Yeah.. there is a BIG difference here in the US.... When I was in Spain this last summer, practically anyone trying to get a prescription to any antibiotic could walk right in to a pharmacy and get whatever they wanted. No prescription needed. I know Spain isnt Finland.... thats for sure.. but the US is VERY tight about letting any drugs go.. The doctors are very careful (if they are good) about what they prescribe, and what they don't. I can totally see how there it wouldn't be as big a deal.... but here, its quite a bit more involved. (Unfortunately.)
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Postby robotland » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:04 am

Despite being dusty and desolate, isn't Our Fair City still only a reasonably short drive from Reno? While I've never experienced a UTI I HAVE had a number of injuries and conditions while "roughing it"...including carbon monoxide poisoning- while MUCH further off the beaten path than BRC. I'm not going to be insensitive and say "suck it up", but having a fully stocked walk-in clinic on the playa would kinda blunt the razor's edge. Sucks to get hurt, and if I got REALLY hurt I'd want help nearby so I didn't code or bleed out or swell up or what-have-you...But you have to take chances sometimes, and that's one of the things I like A LOT about Black Rock City. No crossing guards. No safety nets. It frustrates me how much people in the default world ignore their responsibility to watch their own ass. On the bright side, it keeps most people away from the places I like to explore.
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Postby AntiM » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:09 am

Suck It Up Camp. I like it. I'd do poorly, but I enjoy bitching.
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Postby robotland » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:19 am

AntiM wrote:Suck It Up Camp. I like it. I'd do poorly, but I enjoy bitching.

My biggest complaint is having nothing to complain about! Regular workplace conversation:

ME: How's it going?
WORKMATE: No complaints.
ME: Sorry to hear that!
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:33 am

I've been to the Black Hills and watched a group of people pushing a old bull up a hill. They wanted to get a picture of him with the sunset. Good thing the buffalo was in a good mood until a ranger showed up. Then they were pissed at the ranger for stopping them. Or in Yellowstone I saw a women setting a baby on a bears back . While the old man took a picture.

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On the other side. Last year a rock climber had to cut his own arm off. With a dull knife no less. After two day of hanging by his arm He did what it takes to save himself.
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Postby helitack » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:38 am

unjonharley wrote:I've been to the Black Hills and watched a group of people pushing a old bull up a hill. They wanted to get a picture of him with the sunset. Good thing the buffalo was in a good mood until a ranger showed up. Then they were pissed at the ranger for stopping them. Or in Yellowstone I saw a women setting a baby on a bears back . While the old man took a picture.


I have been seeing that kind of shit since 1993. I don't give a shit if they get pissed at me. The real pleasure comes from knowing I saved their ass, the citation for harrassing wildlife ranks right up there too.
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Postby AntiM » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:53 am

The guy who cut off his arm admits he broke a cardinal rule: never go hiking by yourself or without telling others where you're going and when you should be back. Even a whistle would have improved his odds, a radio or cellphone may have saved his arm.

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Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:56 am

If anyone has any questions for ESD please contact them directly at 911@burningman.com

I always recommend anyone who has or is prone to any particular medical condition that if they come to the playa they should be prepared to leave it if anything comes up. A local clinic for residents of a very tiny town is not in any way responcible or prepared for a yearly influx of 35,000 plus persons. Despite this they do save bm lives there, including, in 2002, my (now) husband's. Illness ruins all sorts of vacations: ever hear of Montezuma's Revenge or King Tut's Curse?

*gasping for air*
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:13 am

helitack wrote:
unjonharley wrote:I've been to the Black Hills and watched a group of people pushing a old bull up a hill. They wanted to get a picture of him with the sunset. Good thing the buffalo was in a good mood until a ranger showed up. Then they were pissed at the ranger for stopping them. Or in Yellowstone I saw a women setting a baby on a bears back . While the old man took a picture.


I have been seeing that kind of shit since 1993. I don't give a shit if they get pissed at me. The real pleasure comes from knowing I saved their ass, the citation for harrassing wildlife ranks right up there too.


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Postby robotland » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:23 am

theCryptofishist wrote: Illness ruins all sorts of vacations: ever hear of Montezuma's Revenge or King Tut's Curse?

*


That's why I don't open strange tombs....even if they contain Wondrous Things, and Everywhere I See The Glint of Gold.
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Postby Kinetic IV » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:26 am

The back of the ticket info is part of what makes Burning Man what it is. If I wanted a trip with medical services close by I could always visit Disneyland. the medtent is nice..but I read the ticket. And I don't need it.

For me the bottom line is self responsbility. Don't become someone else's problem, don't rely on other's generosity to save your ass. Prepare ahead, practice risk management and bring the stuff you need in advance. It's really that simple. This debate can go on and on....but I come back to read the ticket. Don't sanitize this event by taking the edge off it. Otherwise they might as well move BM back to SF and let it become another festival on the calendar.

</soapbox>
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Postby Lassen Forge » Tue Jun 28, 2005 10:59 am

And be prepared. You KNOW you're going into an environment that has proven itself to KILL people time and again. Think of what can go wrong and prepare for it. And bring what fixing that will take. Becuz even with ESD and REMSA, you're still out there, and responsible for your own ass.

And... um... while you're at it, why not take that Red Cross 1st aid course. Maybe even CPR. Because between the time the injury happens and the time the parameds get there may make the difference between making it out and not for someone... and that someone may be a campmate... a family member... or even yourself!
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Postby Janka » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:16 am

When I was in Spain this last summer, practically anyone trying to get a prescription to any antibiotic could walk right in to a pharmacy and get whatever they wanted. No prescription needed. I know Spain isnt Finland.... thats for sure.. but the US is VERY tight about letting any drugs go..


You need a prescription for antibiotica in Finland too, and for several other drugs that one can freely buy in some other countries. I think in the case of antibiotics this is a good thing; at least looking at our resistance figures it seems so. :)

However, at least here it is perfectly legal to get a prescription before you actually have an infection, if you are e.g. going to a remote place where getting to a doctor in case of sickness would be difficult. But the point is that you have to still get them from a qualified MD, who also gives you instructions - you cannot just walk in a store and buy them. I think that's a sane way to do it.
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Postby joel the ornery » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:41 am

The Entitlement Generation

MARTHA IRVINE
Associated Press

The young labeled 'Entitlement Generation'

CHICAGO - Evan Wayne thought he was prepared for anything during a recent interview for a job in radio sales. Then the interviewer hit the 24-year-old Chicagoan with this: "So, we call you guys the 'Entitlement Generation,'" the baby boomer executive said, expressing an oft-heard view of today's young work force. "You think you're entitled to everything."

Such labeling is, perhaps, a rite of passage for every crop of twentysomethings. In their day, baby boomers were rabble-rousing hippies, while Gen Xers were apathetic slackers.

Now, deserved or not, this latest generation is being pegged, too - as one with shockingly high expectations for salary, job flexibility and duties but little willingness to take on grunt work or remain loyal to a company.

"We're seeing an epidemic of people who are having a hard time making the transition to work - kids who had too much success early in life and who've become accustomed to instant gratification," says Dr. Mel Levine, a pediatrics professor at the University of North Carolina Medical School and author of a book on the topic called "Ready or Not, Here Life Comes."

While Levine also notes that today's twentysomethings are long on idealism and altruism, "many of the individuals we see are heavily committed to something we call 'fun.'"


I imagine this could apply to anti-biotics as well.
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Postby helitack » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:46 am

Attention Park visitor:
Don't bitch to me that you alosst got bit by that rattlesnake. I SAW you kneel down and poke at it. Duh.
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 28, 2005 11:58 am

Medication without instructions can make you dead. I must take two (of many) drugs that are counter to one another. So a late of care has to be taken on my part. Making sure that the pills are taken 12 apart.
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Postby Kinetic IV » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:02 pm

I see a lot of that over here...the "I know" stuff. But in some cases they do know, and know it better than expected. When it comes to technology they are fearless and not afraid to try things. Sometimes that comes in very handy when you're working with pre-production stuff.
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Postby unjonharley » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:10 pm

Kinetic IV wrote:I see a lot of that over here...the "I know" stuff. But in some cases they do know, and know it better than expected. When it comes to technology they are fearless and not afraid to try things. Sometimes that comes in very handy when you're working with pre-production stuff.


Not when your working with disaster damaged fine arts. But I do learn alot from young people.
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Postby robotland » Tue Jun 28, 2005 12:56 pm

unjonharley wrote:[

Not when your working with disaster damaged fine arts. .


Okay, now I'm curious.
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Postby blyslv » Tue Jun 28, 2005 1:24 pm

"Where there is no Doctor" is an excellent book.

http://www.hesperian.org/buy_books.htm

Try waking up shivereing and shitting during the rainy season, when there is no possibility of getting to medical help for the next several months. It puts things in perspective.

The original premise of this thread was "Somebody should do... [this great idea I have.] When people start talking about what other people should do, keep an eye on your grub sack, they're looking for a handout.

If you could spend 3 days looking for a doctor you didn't need one that bad. If you needed one that bad you would have gotten to Reno.

I have seen the future of Burningman and it is whiney. "Why don't they take better care of me? boo hoo hoo.

Unjon: I got spanked on The Prow once and would like to go back. Let me know if you're interested.
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Postby Dark Cipher » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:35 pm

Noone said anything about having expectations for BM EMTs to carry antibiotics. These are things that would be NICE and helpful to have availible, just in case to make it cheaper and easier to get when its needed.

I think alot of you people need to realize that burningman is not a venue for radical self reliance anymore. Its just not. I don't care what they are trying to feed you by making you read the back of your ticket... State Police patrols, Medtents, and a center camp that SELLS beverages.. THEY SELL BEVERAGES for gods sake which is another issue that really should be addressed if it hasn't been already.

Its not what it used to be, and never will be again. BM is changed, and it needs to be enjoyed for what it is now!

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Postby joel the ornery » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:38 pm

i am sooooo glad i am not attending this year.

i was sad about it, but after the above post... i am less sad, and more glad.
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Location: i'm the snarky one in your worst fucking nightmares
Burning Since: 1998

Postby helitack » Tue Jun 28, 2005 2:46 pm

Well I'm going. Again. I am as self reliant as I can be. I have to pay full price for my meds if I need them. Why should other people get a discount?
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helitack
 
Posts: 4131
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:00 pm
Location: A secret, undisclosed location in TexMexistan...
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Apokiliptika

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