Antibiotics Camp

Antibiotics Camp

Postby Dark Cipher » Fri Jun 24, 2005 5:32 pm

I don't know if anyone out there realizes this, but the emergency tents in BRC don't have any Antibiotics. Which means that when you are humping your female, or male, while laying in a tent of 3 inch thick playa dust, A urinary tract infection or other weird infection, is just WAITING to happen. Last year we had to leave to get to Gerlack and the Med center there RIPS PEOPLE OFF. They force you to see their doctor there before getting a perscription... and to see the doctor for a 5 minute visit, its like over 200 bucks... not including the cost of the prescription.

I would LOVE to see an Antibiotics camp, where you can go and trade somethig for the drugs that will SAVE YOUR LIFE out there on ther playa without getting ripped off in Gerlack, or having to go through the whole leaving and coming back in sceneario which is a serious pain in the ass.
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Postby Janka » Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:58 am

When I travel even marginally away from the civilization, I have some prescription antibiotics recommended from my doctor with me, with instructions for which symptoms to take them. Self-reliance works as fine for me here as for painkillers and minor wound first aid - though if a neighbour got sick while I was still healthy, I'd gift mine and hope for the best. :)

Other than that, in my opinion, the possible antibiotics camp should 1) not trade, but gift, in the spirit of BM, and 2) have a professional medical person present to advice on the correct medication and need of other care.

(Note that I have no idea of the legality of this kind of activity in Nevada. :))
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Postby Dark Cipher » Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:58 am

Janka wrote:(Note that I have no idea of the legality of this kind of activity in Nevada. :))


hahahaha Nice addition there... ;)
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Postby AntiM » Sun Jun 26, 2005 10:50 am

And then there's the entire allergy issue and drug interactions to worry about. There's a reason gifting prescriptions is illegal and STUPID.
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Postby Isotopia » Sun Jun 26, 2005 5:41 pm

I would LOVE to see an Antibiotics camp, where you can go and trade somethig for the drugs that will SAVE YOUR LIFE out there on ther playa without getting ripped off in Gerlack, or having to go through the whole leaving and coming back in sceneario which is a serious pain in the ass.


Ordinarily the pat response for someone who sees a need for something on the playa is to take the initiative and fill it yourself.

In this case I' strongly suggest NOT. Don't even think about it. Antibiotics ARE a drug. Dispensing without a license is agaist federal, state and local laws. There's hell to pay if you're caught and no med person worth their salt is gonna be a part of this. If you anitipate personal medicinal needs it's probably best to consult your doctor and make arrangements prior to arriving at the event. Anything else is lack of preparedness on people's part.
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Postby Dark Cipher » Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:24 pm

Of course it would great to have a doctor there who could prescribe and diagnose for antibiotics.... Obviously theres going to be people that arent expecting to get a UTI. Itd be nice... thats all.
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Postby cynik » Sun Jun 26, 2005 8:56 pm

This is a great idea. Absolute genius. Anybody who would criticize this should first suffer an illness out there and then see if you still feel sharing medicine to be "stupid" or illegal...

Last year, a friend came down with a nasty case of strept throat in the middle of the week. Probably one of the most miserable things to happen in that environment.....We went into the med tent repeatedly. No help whatsoever. After a lot of suffering and sleepless nights, we hitched a ride in an ambulance to Gerlach at 6am to go to the clinic.....No help again, they just happened to be closed for the long memorial weekend. WTF! Since when does injury/illness take the weekend off, especially at BM? Eventually, we got back to the playa and miraculously found a camp with a yellow van that was kind enough to gift a Z-pack.

Nobody can plan for every possible illness and injury that could happen out there, and to think otherwise is absurd. So lets try and keep an open mind here people and not criticize something, especially something like this...because this year, it just might be you suffering out there wishing for medicine.
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Postby Kinetic IV » Sun Jun 26, 2005 9:56 pm

Jesus people, this is the most asinine idea I've heard on the eplaya in years. What's the next expectation, a full blown hospital? How about extending the center camp grid to everyone? How about mass transit around BRC? And all at a max ticket price of $250?

It's called Radical Self Reliance. See Janka's post...go to the doc ahead of time, tell him or her you are going into a remote location and they can usually provide you with samples and/or scripts for some basic antibiotics, epi-pens, and similar things. If you use your head and put some time and effort into it there's no need for an antibiotics camp.
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Postby Dark Cipher » Sun Jun 26, 2005 11:10 pm

Whatever. You will all (but hopefully not) understand eventually someday via first hand experience. Whats the point of a medtent if theres nothing there to treat infections with????

At least cynik gets it.
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Postby Elemental666 » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:05 am

Are there any doctors in the medtent? Or all they all like EMT type folks? If there is an actual doctor, is he/she licenced in Nevada? Do have all your allergies memorized? Are you currently taking any other medication? Who pays for the antibiotics initially? How is this cost reimbursed? Check out the cost of these drugs your talking about. Do you have insurance? Did you bring your card? Is there any sort of personell that can handle the processing of insurace? Can yuo afford these meds without the aid of your insurance? If you were a doctor and had to worry about the lawsuit happy civilisation of the default world, would you be so willing to let your gaurd down for the BM pop? You think everyone at BM would let it slide if the wrong med made into your system and you reacted poorly? Do you have all your information to provide the onsite doctor, including contact info for your doctor? How is the onsite doctor supposed to consult with your doctor?

I'm not even in the medical field, but I know that handing out antibiotics isn't something you do willy nilly. While I agree that having a top notch medical team onsite, complete with ER, Pharmacy, EMT survices, life flight and a leading national heart transplant ward would indeed ease many a mind and soul; you have to wonder when your illness demands you LEAVE THE PLAYA for your own sake. If you contract something on the playa, say a UTI while getting downn dusty, that requires a script, maybe its time to leave, take care of yourself and come back if there is still time. Yeah, you spent a lot of time and money getting ready to come out to BM, and then you fucked in the dust...

I'm not saying you shouldn't fuck in the dust, but if you fuck in the dust and catch something, well, that's on you brother... suck it up and take responsability for your decision...

There is a whole multi billion dollar industry comprised of healthcare providers, pharmacuetical manufacturers/distributors, insurace companies, federal drug administrations, Centeres for disease controls, etc. etc. that all have to get thier slice of the pie before you can get your antibiotic. Not saying it isn't possible, it just isn't simple. It might be just too much hassle to actually pull off, or too much red tape (most likely the case).

If I were the one who wanted to see these antibiotics on the playa, I would probably try to contact the Medtent folks and find out what options are available, what it would take to make it a reality, help them formulate a game plan and see if I could help make it a reality.

Good luck to you...

P.S. I would assume the med tent is more of a triage, field medic type senario. They can rehydrate you and perform various 1st aide procedures. Anything requiring a docotr, requires a doctor. Meaning if they can't treat you they'll tell you as much. Its up to you to make the correct decision reguarding your health...
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Postby Kinetic IV » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:23 am

Elemental, I had something written that started with read your ticket stub and said what you did...but your words are a lot better than mine. I do have a point or two I want to add.

Per the latest Afterburn report I could find (2003):
http://afterburn.burningman.com/03/play ... gency.html
the REMSA staffed medtent and EMT's in the field function as FIRST RESPONDERS. It's really outside of their normal scope to be giving out antibiotics.

Beyond that everything else I wanted to say is in the post above mine. Dark Cypher, I hope you don't take any of these things personally. It's the idea that's being challenged...not you.
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Postby Janka » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:19 am

You will all (but hopefully not) understand eventually someday via first hand experience.


Dark Cipher, to be honest, the reason why I am carrying meds with me these days is because of personal experience. The difference just is that that experience taught me to prepare better, not to demand better service.

That said, I do agree that having antibiotics available in a city of 30,000+ inhabitants would be a good idea, as long as you have someone present in such an operation really qualified to do a diagnose, assess the situation, and advice on the medicine and other care needed (possibly including leaving the playa). Not only are there allergies, drug interactions and possible complications to think about, but also excess use of antibiotics for conditions in which they are not needed is harmful to the community as a whole, through increasing drug resistance.

I do not consider it impossible that some MD or whomever can legally practice in Nevada would be interested to gift his/her time to this, though. Maybe you should contact the med tent and ask around for medical professionals with BM / playa experience.
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Postby helitack » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:43 am

NO EMT can dispense antibiotics. PA's an MD's can write rx's. If you have an infection/condition that requires antibiotics, you gotta pay to get them. My protocols say epinephrine, assist with the patients nitro, activated charcoal, oral glucose and O2, that's it.
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Postby AntiM » Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:32 am

Be careful what you wish for when wishing first hand experience on others. We just might tell you about ours. I had a nasty pelvic infection stemming from an UTI when I had no money and no access to a free clinc. Probably why I'm now infertile after two ectopic pregnancies, so don't hand ME crap about first hand experience. But I STILL say antibiotics as a gift are life threatening and STUPID. My brother nearly died of an antibiotic reaction, something he'd supposedly taken before. I can remember sitting in the ER waiting room crying because the doc thought he was going to die. (my brother, not the doc)

A 24 hour free clinic would be lovely, but unless someone comes up with a pot of money and a lot of initiative, we're not going to see one on the playa.

Perhaps a "safe fucking in the dust" thread would be in order. I recommend clean hands, baby wipes and lubricant. Plus a bidet rigged from a mister bottle for daily fun and freshness. And I speak from first hand experience.
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Postby Janka » Mon Jun 27, 2005 5:43 am

But I STILL say antibiotics as a gift are life threatening and STUPID.


What if the gift-giver is a qualified medical professional, and the gift includes his/her time to make the diagnoses and advice you on the use of the drug?

Maybe this idea will never lead to 24h free clinic, but I would still think it might just be possible that individual MDs might be interested in offering part-time services, at least if someone else provided the meds or money for them and premises as their part of the gift. (Hell, if I was fully lisenced to practice in US, I might be willing to do it, but I am not that even in Finland, so forget about it. :))
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Postby AntiM » Mon Jun 27, 2005 6:02 am

You can always add qualifiers to a blanket statement. Perhaps there is a doctor out there who'd cheerfully spend their entire time at Bman giving out antibiotics. Given the litigious nature of so many folks in the US, there's not many MDs who would provide such a service without full facilities at hand.

Sometimes you get into situations that can't be resolved on the playa. It is a fucking week-long camping trip, not utopia on a dusty silver platter.
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Postby Isotopia » Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:49 am

This is a great idea. Absolute genius. Anybody who would criticize this should first suffer an illness out there and then see if you still feel sharing medicine to be "stupid" or illegal...


I still disagree. Behold the slippery slope where participant's expectations bleed beyond the idea of self-sufficiency and into the 'entitlement zone.' Comes about when the belief manifests itself that paying for a ticket should also mean having other services made available to you in order to reduce the expectation that you should be ready, able and willing to do some things for yourself - such as survive. You're essentially asking that the Project provide for you a means to make your stay on the playa an easier more comfortable experience by expecting yet another service which reduces your personal responsibility. Couch it any way you like but what you are asking is anathema to the idea of self-sufficiency. It really is no different from other suggestions made in the past such as trash pickup, recycling, ability to tap into the energy grid, or provide condoms to fuck, or (my favorite) provide needles for IV drug users.
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Postby Don Muerto » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:18 am

<goon voice>

You want I should hit him, boss?

</goon voice>
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Postby Isotopia » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:41 am

Maybe this idea will never lead to 24h free clinic, but I would still think it might just be possible that individual MDs might be interested in offering part-time services, at least if someone else provided the meds or money for them and premises as their part of the gift. (Hell, if I was fully lisenced to practice in US, I might be willing to do it, but I am not that even in Finland, so forget about it.


Janka, I'll take a leap here and suppose that the medical profession in Finland along with liability laws as they apply to malpractice suits against doctors are quite different from what we have in the US. My personal doctor has been to the playa several times, has a minor specialization in wilderness medicine and is probably as capable as any MD I can think of to render the services you suggest. A short 5 minute talk with him a few years back was enough for me to understand that no MD worth their license would ever agree to actually practice their craft on the playa under any circumstances short of a life and death scenario. There's too much to consider and too much could potentially go wrong.
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Postby blyslv » Mon Jun 27, 2005 10:51 am

bidet rigged from a mister bottle for daily fun and freshness



That is the best idea I've heard in a long time. Thanks!
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Postby AntiM » Mon Jun 27, 2005 11:55 am

Especially nice if you have one of those bath chairs with a hole in it in the appropriate spot. Wheeeee! And a friendly soul to weild the sprayer wand .. double wheeee!
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:21 pm

Dr. now R× and where is that damn free drug store again.

Hell it's against the law to share my nitro. Not that I would'nt on request. Some of you are expecting a lot for a fucking camping trip. I carry my drugs and first aid. Also have put some shit togeather to help others. But not with out a EMT. Now get your head out of your ass and thank the EMT's and one DR. for gifting there vacation to you.
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Postby Janka » Mon Jun 27, 2005 12:43 pm

Janka, I'll take a leap here and suppose that the medical profession in Finland along with liability laws as they apply to malpractice suits against doctors are quite different from what we have in the US.


Good point, I forgot that little bit of cultural differences.

(Naturally, we have malpractice laws here too. But as I have understood it - and I mean no offense - our legal system handles them with somewhat more reasonably than that of the US.)[/i]
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Postby joel the ornery » Mon Jun 27, 2005 1:19 pm

Janka wrote:
Janka, I'll take a leap here and suppose that the medical profession in Finland along with liability laws as they apply to malpractice suits against doctors are quite different from what we have in the US.


Good point, I forgot that little bit of cultural differences.

(Naturally, we have malpractice laws here too. But as I have understood it - and I mean no offense - our legal system handles them with somewhat more reasonably than that of the US.)[/i]


more reasonably...

i am curious what that means, but i don't want to get into a lengthy discussion without the aid of mind altering intoxicants.
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Postby melanie » Mon Jun 27, 2005 2:07 pm

Hellooo? Radical self reliance?
Dark Cipher, in a perfect, danger-free world, your idea is convenient. But as Janka said, he has learned to be more prepared at burning man, not to expect more. From your experiences, you should follow his suit.
As a registered nurse, I see your idea and it just can't be done. No way. I know UTIs, strep throat, and the like are very inconvenient and it is an excellent idea to come prepared with medications you may need. There are just too many roadblocks to have someone have a camp and hand out meds. No medical professioanl would stick their neck out like that, it's just not worth it. Not to say that medical professionals are not compassionate, most are, that's why they got into it. But the system makes all this impossible. Not to mention allergic reactions, other "meds" on board, etc. There is a reason why you see a doctor to get a prescription. There are also reasons why doctors pay a lot of liability insurance.

There are doctors at the 3 and 9 o'clock stations and at REMSA. My husband got his thumb sewn up by an MD at REMSA last year. I am not sure if they can write prescriptions for medications so that you can just go to the pharmacy/clinic in Gerlach and forego the appointment part with the doctor there. Again, all the clinics at BM are first-responder types, and again, I'm not sure how MD's are covered, legally, to practice at BM, or what the scope of practice is that is covered. Just because they are doctors does not mean that they are covered to perform their whole scope of practice.

Anyways, you need to take care of your own ass out there. Come prepared. This is a great suggestion to those prone to UTIs to see their doctor beforehand to get an Rx filled just in case.
We could also travel into the subject, which I think Janka touched on, that liberally using antibiotics incorrectly is bad for public health, but I think I'll stop at this point.
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Postby cynik » Mon Jun 27, 2005 3:39 pm

Sounds like you all are just full of answers.....but to which question? Seemingly to theories that hold no relevence to Burning Man and the 35,000 that reside there. Antibiotics would be for people who NEED them, get it? But if you NEED them and they arent there, then what? All I've heard is the obvious and idiotic boy-scout "be prepared" bullshit, or "what about allergies" garbage. If you desperately need medicine and it isnt available, then what good are federal or state laws and regulations?

So how many of you have been sick on the playa? Any? hmmm...have any of you had to seek medicine or serious medical attention out there? Anybody actually gone to see these doctors, EMT, or Med Techs out there with anything more than a cut or scrape? How quick you are all to speak with no real experience to draw on.

It's hilarious how an initial post of expressing a desire for such simple (and critical) things as antibiotics/medicine can turn into such a debate of symantics and tireless dancing around the subjects only clouding the issue further with more ignorant, unanswerable questions. I did find a doctor out there, a REAL , DO-NO-HARM doctor, but it took 3 days and searching through a hundred different theme camps...and that doctor confessed that the available care and medicine available within a 150 miles of the playa was appaling.

Someone who has the vision to see what is lacking with BM should never be criticized or have their statements deconstructed and skewed. And it's pathetic to outright insult people for this as well. Honestly, have any of you ever encountered somone suffering before and decided to stop to offer some advice, warn them that next time they should be "more prepared", or do you stow all that theoretical bullshit and try to help?

Ask yourself this question. What would Burning Man be if it was 35,000 people all looking out for their own ass......defiantely not a place I would want to be. It would be a lot like the world outside...a place where people are quicker to criticize than help and support.

Dark, your head/heart was in the right place with this post. And it also displayed how far some other peoples' are up their ass. They simply wont be enlighted to this subject until they slip and fall off an art car at midnight, suffer a compound leg fracture, and lie there screaming into the night for help. maybe then......maybe
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Postby Chai Guy » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:01 pm

Antibiotics would be for people who NEED them, get it? But if you NEED them and they arent there, then what?


Then you have essentially 3 choices.

1. Get in your car and go to health clinic in Gerlach, pay the $200 and get your meds.

2. Get in your car and drive to Reno or the nearest city that has a facility covered by your HMO or provides a free clinic, and get your meds.

3. Visit your doctor before the event, explain that you will be going on a vacation to a remote desert environment and ask if they would prescribe any meds "just in case" for such a trip.

If you desperately need medicine and it isnt available, then what good are federal or state laws and regulations?


I'm currently unaware of any state or federal regulation that stipulates you will be povided with medication at any location in the Black Rock Desert. Cites

So how many of you have been sick on the playa? Any?


My brother almost accidentaly severed a finger, the doctor on the playa did an amazing job of sewing it back on, can barely see the scar now. I've had other friends become dehydrated and sick and by all accounts they REMSA did an outstanding and professional job.

REMSA exists for emergencies and they may very well advise you to seek medical treatment else where if you're ailment is not an emergency situation.

What would Burning Man be if it was 35,000 people all looking out for their own ass.


Well, the Rangers and REMSA would probably be out of a job.
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Postby actiongrl » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:12 pm

Not my department and so speaking only as a participant: if I'm sick enough to need antibiotics, I have no business staying on the playa.

It's a very remote, very extreme environment. If your health fails while you're there, it's important to have a means to get out and go deal with it.
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Postby joel the ornery » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:12 pm

cynik wrote:What would Burning Man be if it was 35,000 people all looking out for their own ass.....


a model for/of self-reliance?
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Postby Isotopia » Mon Jun 27, 2005 4:15 pm

They simply wont be enlighted to this subject until they slip and fall off an art car at midnight, suffer a compound leg fracture, and lie there screaming into the night for help.


Each of which would (or could) constitute an emergency in which case a quick response by EMS, Rangers or REMSA is guaranteed, competent treatement a given and further evaluation AND transportation to a medical hospital(if necessary) is insured.

Your above post is comparing apples and oranges Cynik and it's pretty damn disengenuous of you to make comparisons to emergency serveices which BM has in spades vs. whinging about not having the event provide facilities and drugs to treat one's itchy cock rash or yeast infection that happens because someoine didn't bring the rubbers or forgot to douche.

There's till some merit to reading the back of your ticket. Certainly doing so might have gone a ways towards reducing your dramatis personae hyperbole just cause you disagree with some of the answers.

Now go get me a cocktail....
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