Date Rape at Burning Man

Share your pictures and video. Tell us about the sights, sounds, and scents, as well as the rumors and truths found at Burning Man.

Postby C.f.M. » Wed May 19, 2010 9:35 am

goathead wrote:
C.f.M. wrote:I can give many additional examples of scenarios I've where I flat-out walked in the middle and said "what is going on here?"

In public places!

All involving drunk people.


note to self, really need to make it to the e-playa meet and greet.


One time sticks out. It was really sad, that some girl is "dancing sexy," (ie, losing her top and falling off a chair, slurring her words and unable to stand). Her "friends" are encouraging her with more shots. Some guy at the bar also buying her shots, and rubbing her back when she stumbled to the bar. AND the bartender not saying no.

Seen it time and time again. Or watched a drunk couple that just met, and have been sloppily all over each other. Only later to have him insist he wasn't interested, he was "sooooo DRUNK!

Had a woman crawl up on a bar, screaming and getting physical with a woman she didn't know (who had aimed an ice cube at a friend across the way, but accidentally hit this woman on the back of the shouler) only to later apologize and claim she didn't remember any of it (a woman I'd never seen, prior to this incident, raise her voice or get physical).

I can go on - without even sharing personal stories from me, people I've known, etc.

Ya know what REALLY pisses me off? How "blame it on the alcohol" has become "cool." First that god-awful song pretty much detailing sexual molestation - blame it on the alcohol! Last night I was in a store for young women, with t-shirts proclaiming "Blame it on the alcohol."

Read a few pages of Texts From Last Night...ok, now I'm just ranting. But still. :evil:
User avatar
C.f.M.
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:28 pm
Burning Since: 2009

Postby Ugly Dougly » Wed May 19, 2010 9:41 am

Seems to be a fascinating subject for many.
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
User avatar
Ugly Dougly
 
Posts: 16319
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Burning Since: 1996

Postby EmilyD » Wed May 19, 2010 10:54 am

C.f.M. wrote:
teardropper wrote:
C.f.M. wrote:I can give many additional examples of scenarios I've where I flat-out walked in the middle and said "what is going on here?"

In public places!

All involving drunk people.


Man, where do you hang out? I'm torn between wanting to go there and knowing I need to stay away.


Before burns, bars. I was a bartender, and later worked the door at another club. Now, as a Ranger and a burn-goer (and someone who still frequents bars).


C.f.M. I DEFINITELY want to hang out with you! ;-)

and...did you notice that SFburnergrrrl never answered my questions?
User avatar
EmilyD
 
Posts: 1040
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:03 pm
Location: ArtCar Camp

Postby swampdog » Wed May 19, 2010 11:02 am

I'm with Emily D on this one. SFBG, what do you want from us? What do you want from me?

Validation? Yes, you were raped. Any time the man puts his pee-pee in the lady's baby tunnel without permission is rape. Full stop. Bright shining line.

ETA - rereading your blog - you DON'T EVEN KNOW if he did the deed
I’d like to think that maybe he started doing stuff to me, took off all my clothes and then at some point realized I was not conscious and stopped.

Should you have called the cops? It is to laugh. I can guarantee that the experience of dealing with the cops would be much more painful than MAYBE getting your hoo-ha poked while you were unconscious. IF they took you seriously enough to take a rape kit to find out if you'd actually been penetrated, well, "rape kit" doesn't sound like a pleasant experience.

Sympathy? Not so much. When you get that drunk, you abdicate keeping yourself safe (however you define it) to others. In this case, an other whom you knew was a) hot for you and b) nearly as impaired as you. You basically said, "I trust you to know and respect that bright shining line in my absence even though it might be looking awfully muddy and gray to you". Is what he did right? Of course not! Hell no! Regardless of whether he actually went upstream to spawn or just fiddled around the mouth of the stream, it's creepy, weird, and WRONG. But you gave him the responsibility.

Personally the idea of having sex on someone passed out comatose grosses me out. Going down on a woman who is not responsive? I'd rather lick playa dust.

But maybe your body, in absence of any mental guidance, was responding on its own? Giving him a "yes" when previously there had only been absence of a "no". Who knows? Not you.

Hell, you woke up in early and obvious stages of being raped (him going down on you) and didn't bother to stick around! I know, out of commission, incapacitated. Not responsible.

My opinion? This is a writing exercise for you. You think you're a writer and so you did what they all say and wrote an essay about something deeply personal to you. You showed it to a friend who said, "wow, dude, this is really intense, you should post it somewhere, people should read this". And you chose to post it here. Further evidence of your total lack of judgment, this is not a bare-your-heart kinda crowd. And your essay is NOT very well written.

So, again, what do you want?
Definition of rape? Done.
Sympathy? Nupe
Agreement that he's a rotten bastard and should rot in hell or at least jail? Hell, no. He sounds like a creep and a jerk, but you sound like an irresponsible twit. You deserve each other. Neither of you has particularly good judgment.
Appreciation for a powerfully written journal? Oh please.
Warn the sisterhood that when you abdicate responsibility for yourself bad things can happen? Uh, I think most of them know. Certainly the ones who post here do. The ones that don't know learn eventually, sometimes the hard way. They probably aren't reading this.
Help in recovering from this tragedy? Honey, you don't know your audience. Don't go spilling your guts unless you know your audience. This is not the place for therapy. You don't know me.
User avatar
swampdog
 
Posts: 903
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:27 am
Location: Bellingham WA
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Rising Arms Pub

Postby big baby jesus » Wed May 19, 2010 12:01 pm

"I’d like to think that maybe he started doing stuff to me, took off all my clothes and then at some point realized I was not conscious and stopped."

I read your blog a couple of times and there's nothing to say that he had sex with you when you were unconscious. Every weekend we deal with drunk guys and girls that do all sorts of stupid shit and the pass out. It's not uncommon for them to come by the fire station a day later, looking for keys or whatever, and tell us they have no memory of what happened. You don't remember what happened and thereby assume he raped you. That's a pretty big leap and your story wouldn't stand up in court. You and he need to talk about what happened as you have very few facts other than you got wasted and are pretty sure you slept with a guy. What if his side of the story is a hazy as yours?
Merci, Cedric. Remind me, we'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.
User avatar
big baby jesus
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:04 pm
Location: Truckee

Postby DVD Burner » Wed May 19, 2010 1:17 pm

C.f.M. wrote:Something is amiss, Dr. Pyro: all of the facts.

how would you change the world to prevent men from taking advantage of an extremely drunk girl

First, I'd have to be convinced that the man was taking "advantage."

Two people getting drunk as fuck and spending the evening fooling around is just that. Sometimes the woman is the aggressor, sometimes the man, sometimes who knows? There's just vagina and penis all over the place and oh god, what was I thinking?? the next morning.

Ugly Dougly mentioned earlier, "How do you not know you aren't violent, when drunk?"

People do and say all kinds of things they have zero recollection of. It's called "blacking out" for a reason. Not remembering what you did doesn't not mean you were physically unconcious.

As I posted earlier, none of us were there and cannot say what actually happened. Maybe she, in her blacked out state, was giving consent. Maybe she even started it. Who knows? None of us, and neither of them (unless he was sober and recalls clearly what happened but until he 'fesses up, I'm not jumping to conclusions based on circumstantial evidence).

People carry on entire conversations and do things for hours and hours under the influence of alcohol and have no memory of what they said or did the next day. Some do it in their sleep.



Maybe he, in his drunken state, didn't know what he was doing. And rather than discuss the drunken confusion openly, he's trying to act like it didn't happen, because he's so ashamed. We don't know.

As I stated earlier, chemically-induced states of forgetfulness makes it no less unfortunate/regrettable/tragic, when one person comes to regret whatever might have happened, and for fuck's sake, nobody here thinks it's OK to force anybody to do anything, much less have sexual intercourse, but I cannot consider this man a "rapist" based on the described scenario.

I'm with the posters wondering why this is being brought up so long after the fact, and here. What is the end goal of all this? Send dude a link to the conversation, allow him to tell his side - if you want judgement(s) made in an open court (ie, making date rape accusations on an internet message board) then offer all evidence and facts.

Clearly, that probably won't happen but he at least should be offered the chance to explain himself.

Stirring up trouble isn't going to help help a traumatized psyche, and it certainly isn't going to educate on ways to behave responsibly, sexually.

What will be the productive result of all this discourse, on a heated, trigger-word ("rape") topic?

Lesson is, kids: don't get so fucking wasted that you will be unable to prevent yourself from getting into situations you do not want to be in and/or cannot get out of.

If you find yourself at that point (hey, it happens) alert your friends. Go to bed. Stop drinking immediately and start on some food and water. Tell strangers, "Oh crap I'm drunk!" This can alert people to keep an eye on you and inform potential hook-ups who aren't aware you're not attracted to them, you're just drunk, that they need to pass, and maybe find you tomorrow.

If you think you might be unable to control yourself and worry about what you might do, don't drink. Pass on the molly. Radical self-reliance and personal responsibility.





Two people getting drunk as fuck and spending the evening fooling around is just that. Sometimes the woman is the aggressor, sometimes the man, sometimes who knows? There's just vagina and penis all over the place and oh god, what was I thinking?? the next morning.


That is too funny! :lol:


Quote of the year as far as I am concerned.
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby DVD Burner » Wed May 19, 2010 1:20 pm

C.f.M. you are so on.
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby Popobumm » Wed May 19, 2010 1:26 pm

I'd like to have C.f.M. speak at high schools across the nation please.
Popobumm
 
Posts: 44
Joined: Mon May 10, 2010 5:34 pm
Location: Orange County, CA

Postby DVD Burner » Wed May 19, 2010 1:30 pm

Popobumm wrote:I'd like to have C.f.M. speak at high schools across the nation please.


Fuck High school.

It's reality no matter what the age.
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby Fire_Moose » Wed May 19, 2010 2:15 pm

Don't fuck high schools, that would quickly turn into Statutory date rape
2K8 Burning Man Virgin 2K11 Camp Envy
2K9 Camp Envy 2k12 Fucking Flamingoes
2k10 Stag Camp 2k13 Camp Envy
User avatar
Fire_Moose
 
Posts: 2486
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:40 am
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Postby Isotopia » Wed May 19, 2010 4:50 pm

On the other hand, there's the 10% which I'm still unclear about. She did give signals that I could see would be quite alluring. I mean...if I'm going down on a girl and she's laughing...I probably would continue. Of course if she was passed out lifeless that'd be a definite cue to stop, but I know I've been drunk enough to blackout and not remember a thing, only to have my friends tell me all the stupid shit I was doing the day after. So giving him the benefit of the doubt (innocent 'til proven guilty right?), there's a chance you weren't unconscious and were actually participating? Small chance I know...


Thanks for expressing reservations which I myself have had in this thread since I start reading. What I don't feel is an 'ick' factor. Of course I wasn't there and it's likely that the whole story will never be told but I'm just not getting that this guy was a predator. Certainly I don't get the sense that he was a serial rapist. I'll leave those comments at that knowing full well that there's a full spectrum of what defines 'rape' as well as rapist.

I know that rape is rape. But I'm not willing to get into a dogfight by saying much more than there's something about this tale that just doesn't pass muster with me. Certainly there seems to be just a hint - a waft - of BS buried between the sentences.
User avatar
Isotopia
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:26 am

Postby ygmir » Wed May 19, 2010 4:54 pm

is it like being invited to a pool party, handed a bathing suit and towel, climbing on the diving board, and, just as you leap into the air, someone yells: "No swimming"?............
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 25989
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Postby big baby jesus » Wed May 19, 2010 5:12 pm

I hope she wasn't raped, but she went to the troupble to tell us all that Travis raped her so I think we have the right to ask for the gray areas to be a little more black and white. That being said, it did produce one of the best lines yet:

"There's just vagina and penis all over the place and oh god, what was I thinking??"

I couldn't resist... it made such a great sticker... 10 of them...
Merci, Cedric. Remind me, we'll send him a red cap and a Speedo.
User avatar
big baby jesus
 
Posts: 73
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 4:04 pm
Location: Truckee

Postby DVD Burner » Wed May 19, 2010 9:46 pm

ygmir wrote:is it like being invited to a pool party, handed a bathing suit and towel, climbing on the diving board, and, just as you leap into the air, someone yells: "No swimming"?............



Ah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!



Hilarious!
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby DVD Burner » Wed May 19, 2010 9:47 pm

big baby jesus wrote:I hope she wasn't raped, but she went to the troupble to tell us all that Travis raped her so I think we have the right to ask for the gray areas to be a little more black and white. That being said, it did produce one of the best lines yet:

"There's just vagina and penis all over the place and oh god, what was I thinking??"

I couldn't resist... it made such a great sticker... 10 of them...




Right? :lol:
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby EmilyD » Wed May 19, 2010 10:58 pm

big baby jesus wrote:I hope she wasn't raped, but she went to the troupble to tell us all that Travis raped her so I think we have the right to ask for the gray areas to be a little more black and white. That being said, it did produce one of the best lines yet:

"There's just vagina and penis all over the place and oh god, what was I thinking??"

I couldn't resist... it made such a great sticker... 10 of them...


Yes to the first part...and ROFLMAO to the sticker part! ;-)
User avatar
EmilyD
 
Posts: 1040
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 4:03 pm
Location: ArtCar Camp

Postby DVD Burner » Wed May 19, 2010 11:07 pm

Isotopia wrote:Of course I wasn't there and it's likely that the whole story will never be told but I'm just not getting that this guy was a predator. Certainly I don't get the sense that he was a serial rapist.



The 10 years part is the thing that gets me.

He did not go after her FOR 10 YEARS!

I say NO! Not buying it.

Tell you the honest truth, I really dont think this would hold up in court no matter what the law is.
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby Fire_Moose » Thu May 20, 2010 7:03 am

Hey, SFHippygirl, I found a way you can get stupid drunk on the playa and not worry about a guy doing you. Buy some of these and wear them all the time


http://trueslant.com/daviddisalvo/2010/ ... th-africa/
2K8 Burning Man Virgin 2K11 Camp Envy
2K9 Camp Envy 2k12 Fucking Flamingoes
2k10 Stag Camp 2k13 Camp Envy
User avatar
Fire_Moose
 
Posts: 2486
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:40 am
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Postby Bob » Thu May 20, 2010 7:21 am

I see no reason not to take it at face value. Kids these days talk about all kinds of foolishness on the internets.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

"Let us say I suggest you may be human." -- Reverend Mother Gaius Helen Mohiam
User avatar
Bob
 
Posts: 6762
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 10:00 am
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 1986
Camp Name: Royaneh

Postby DVD Burner » Thu May 20, 2010 8:16 am

Fire_Moose wrote:Hey, SFHippygirl, I found a way you can get stupid drunk on the playa and not worry about a guy doing you. Buy some of these and wear them all the time


http://trueslant.com/daviddisalvo/2010/ ... th-africa/


OWWW!
Image

"The art is in the digit!"

The Original Digiman
User avatar
DVD Burner
 
Posts: 9741
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:09 am

Postby gyre » Thu May 20, 2010 8:30 am

SFB, you've posted about this on eplaya before, haven't you?
User avatar
gyre
 
Posts: 15346
Joined: Sun Aug 07, 2005 6:01 pm
Location: ΦάÏ

Postby Isotopia » Thu May 20, 2010 9:21 am

All of this sort of begs the question: How many men are currently serving long prison time or branded 'sex offender' by the courts due to circumstances similar to the one presented?
User avatar
Isotopia
 
Posts: 2813
Joined: Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:26 am

Postby ygmir » Thu May 20, 2010 9:51 am

one could imagine several, Iso..........

it's such a tough, politically correct, socially sensitive issue.......
hard to discuss, and, with so many "gray" areas in actions and re-actions, no clear cut set of guidelines seem possible.
I know, for me, it becomes so awkward if there is any though of "spontaneity", whether you know the person or just met..........I'd imagine, it's that way for many others.
and, with this issue in particular, just the accusation, makes for a label on the accused........
YGMIR

Unabashed Nordic
Pagan
User avatar
ygmir
 
Posts: 25989
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:36 pm
Location: nevada county
Burning Since: 2017
Camp Name: qqqq

Postby C.f.M. » Thu May 20, 2010 10:15 am

ygmir wrote:one could imagine several, Iso..........

it's such a tough, politically correct, socially sensitive issue.......
hard to discuss, and, with so many "gray" areas in actions and re-actions, no clear cut set of guidelines seem possible.
I know, for me, it becomes so awkward if there is any though of "spontaneity", whether you know the person or just met..........I'd imagine, it's that way for many others.
and, with this issue in particular, just the accusation, makes for a label on the accused........


Which is what I've been pointing out since the get-go.
User avatar
C.f.M.
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:28 pm
Burning Since: 2009

Re: Date Rape

Postby mdmf007 » Thu May 20, 2010 12:26 pm

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:
I say that women everywhere DEMAND the right to drink themselves into oblivion, pass out in the middle of the playa, or in whoever's truck or tent they feel like, without having to wake up the next morning naked wondering what happened to them


I was on the fence up to the point you posted this. What makes you think you have the RIGHT to pass out and expect everyone around you to babysit you? I agree you have the right to not be taken advantage of, but your story sounds more like regret than anything else. Alot of woman are raped and it is unfortunate. Most are a lot more clear cut thatn your story.

Nice to be drinking and driving an art car on playa as well..
User avatar
mdmf007
Moderator
 
Posts: 4772
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:32 pm
Location: my computer
Burning Since: 1999
Camp Name: ESD

Postby Fire_Moose » Thu May 20, 2010 12:44 pm

Ya know, some people will pay good money to get raped.
2K8 Burning Man Virgin 2K11 Camp Envy
2K9 Camp Envy 2k12 Fucking Flamingoes
2k10 Stag Camp 2k13 Camp Envy
User avatar
Fire_Moose
 
Posts: 2486
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:40 am
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Postby C.f.M. » Thu May 20, 2010 12:55 pm

Fire_Moose wrote:Ya know, some people will pay good money to get raped.


No, they'll pay for a rape fantasy.

Just like that guy doing the "rape tunnel." It isn't rape when the "victim" is the instigator. Or when both parties are at equal fault for a situation - probably a better phrasing than "fault" would be...no cause? No fault? The phrase cops use @ an accident, when neither party necessarily did any one thing to cause it.
User avatar
C.f.M.
 
Posts: 3546
Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 1:28 pm
Burning Since: 2009

Postby Fire_Moose » Thu May 20, 2010 1:19 pm

Whatev, it's all the same to me
2K8 Burning Man Virgin 2K11 Camp Envy
2K9 Camp Envy 2k12 Fucking Flamingoes
2k10 Stag Camp 2k13 Camp Envy
User avatar
Fire_Moose
 
Posts: 2486
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:40 am
Location: Scottsdale, AZ

Postby ibdave » Thu May 20, 2010 9:20 pm

No means No and Silence is NOT consent...






and the bible is a made up book... :!: :!: :!:
I was Born OK the 1st Time....

Don't bring defaultia to Burning Man, take Burning Man to defaultia...... graidawg
User avatar
ibdave
 
Posts: 3524
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2003 4:09 pm
Burning Since: 1998

Postby Julian » Thu May 20, 2010 11:37 pm

Wow, so many things posted in here to respond to. I'll start with the obvious one that has been overlooked.

There were two people involved in this incident and we're only getting one side of the story. Without disregarding what the Original Poster has claimed two people can have very different points of view of the same incident. To automatically assume what the OP says is truth without getting the other side is unwise. While there was a time when I would automatically assume that a woman who claimed she was assaulted is telling the truth I've been up close to 3 or 4 incidents in which women made false claims up for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately there isn't a mechanism in place that punishes them for doing this as severely as for men who actually assault people.

As for drunk people not being able to give consent: while I would agree that if one person is blotto and the other is coherent might fall well within the boundaries of bad behavior at best and rape at worst, if both participants are shit-canned all bets are off.

Women SHOULD be able to walk where they want, dress how they please, and act as they desire without fear of being attacked. Should is also one of the most useless words I can think of. We don't live in that world. People make choices and fair or not those choices ultimately have consequences.

I live in LA and I should be able to visit any part of town I wish without worry of being bothered. However, if I wandered into the wrong part of town late at night it's safe to assume that trouble would find me. Is it fair? Of course not. But it's naive to think that something like that couldn't happen.

Rape is a heinous crime, but so is accusing someone of rape to assuage buyer's remorse. They both rob someone of their dignity and deserve to get a severe ass kicking.
Julian
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2008 5:57 pm
Location: Saigon, Vietnam

PreviousNext

Return to Experiences at Burning Man

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest