Date Rape at Burning Man

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Postby DVD Burner » Mon May 17, 2010 5:31 pm

Man, I shouldn't a posted that story. I bet everyone is laughin now. :? :shock:

But my point is the same. girls can be violent too.
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Postby Sham » Mon May 17, 2010 5:47 pm

DVD Burner wrote:Man, I shouldn't a posted that story. I bet everyone is laughin now. :?

Not at all. No laughing here. This is the complete reverse story. She wanted you to "put out" and you said "NO"! She got violent and hit you. Probably not too bad, but may have left a black and blue mark.
Had this been reversed, you would have been arrested and charged with assault and attempted rape. She would have worn the badge of a battered woman for the rest of her life. You would have served some time in jail and be branded a felon. (people who assault women are not treated well in jail)

But did YOU call the police?
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Postby AntiM » Mon May 17, 2010 6:03 pm

I say that women everywhere DEMAND the right to drink themselves into oblivion, pass out in the middle of the playa, or in whoever's truck or tent they feel like, without having to wake up the next morning naked wondering what happened to them


Oh HELL NO. I say that's stupid and irresponsible. Women shouldn't have to watch their backs constantly, but the universe doesn't have to babysit stupid assholes of any gender. There must be responsibility all the way around. I totally believe that if you choose to get so fucked up you can't care for yourself, you have hard choices to make later. Like pressing charges.

And what of the blackout drunk who is walking and talking, with no recall the next day? I've done that, I know others who have done that. An impaired guy wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

If Travis raped you, then this is hardly the place to find validation for your feelings now. Warning other women to be careful is good, but suggesting they should be able to get shitfaced anywhere anytime is foolish and incredibly naive.

Yeah, I would love to hear the perceptions Travis had. More so if he has read the blog. Makes me wonder if he'd cry slander.

While I feel bad for you, I think you need some professional help. And don't rage about the replies here, this is an open forum, all opinions get posted. Not everyone will agree with you, and by the nature of open forums, you have to live with what's posted here. You may react any way you choose, but you don't control the content. Perhaps not the forum you're searching for. Eplaya is hardly all light and love, never has been.

What do you want here? Seriously, why post this here, why now. I am deeply curious.
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Postby bm_cricket » Mon May 17, 2010 6:48 pm

SFburnergirl--I'm sorry to hear what happened.

Women shouldn't have to assume their friends are likely to rape them.

Men shouldn't assume that being too drunk or intimidated to say "FUCK NO GET OFF ME" is an invitation. The only invitation is when you INVITE THEM BY SAYING YES.[/b]

(For the sake of accuracy this whole statement can have "Men/Man" or "Women/Woman" replaced by any combination of Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual/Transgendered/Tran-sexual/Transvestite/Inter-sex/Questioning/Queer/or any others I don't know about. Every community of people has some people willing to take advantage of other people.)
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Postby SFBurnergrrrl » Mon May 17, 2010 6:50 pm

@Gaminwench

Actually I did ask him. If you read my blog again you will see how he responded. I've tried to contact him over the years and talk to him about it and he refuses to speak to me. Do you think if someone raped you they're reall going to sit down an talk to you about it? Probably not. I naively thought, at times, over the years that there could be a possibility of healing if we could talk about everything.

Also, I'm not you, I don't get drunk, black out and have sex willingly with guys and then not remember it the next day. Maybe you don't really do it willingly either.
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Re: Date Rape

Postby bm_cricket » Mon May 17, 2010 7:11 pm

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:If it's NOT "consensual" [...] it is called Rape.


^I think we can agree completely on that.

Always ask before sleeping with someone. If the answer isn't YES then it should be assumed to be NO.

Does this apply if someone can't remember what they heard? What they said? What if it's just one person's word against another?

I don't know the answer.
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Postby ygmir » Mon May 17, 2010 7:12 pm

DVD Burner wrote:Man, I shouldn't a posted that story. I bet everyone is laughin now. :? :shock:

But my point is the same. girls can be violent too.


not laughing at all..........
I've had almost the same experience.........twice, this gal, tried to "beat me up"...........or, was swinging, kicking, etc............jeeze........
It's not funny, and, it can be very unnerving.

I think, some of that, comes from the difference in gender relations:
It seems, most men, grow up, knowing, if you hit someone, they'll probably hit you back.......and, it'll hurt.
I'm not so sure, women experience the same, in their peer groups and society. A woman, even in the old movies, can slap a man, and, get away with it...........
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Postby SFBurnergrrrl » Mon May 17, 2010 7:16 pm

@ Antim

You said,"Don't rage about what other people post on here ...". So other people can post their opinions and rage and what not, but I can't post my opinions now?
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Postby SFBurnergrrrl » Mon May 17, 2010 7:29 pm

@DVD Burner

I think you made that story up. Maybe you were just so drunk you don't really remember what happened clearly. You must've really WANTED it, I'm sure you just didn't realize it cause you drank too much.
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Re: Date Rape

Postby Bob » Mon May 17, 2010 7:29 pm

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:I say that women everywhere DEMAND the right to drink themselves into oblivion, pass out in the middle of the playa, or in whoever's truck or tent they feel like, without having to wake up the next morning naked wondering what happened to them


Are you demanding the right to pass out drunk on the playa and not get run over? Kids these days...

I have little doubt that your blog as such describes a rape scenario, and justifiable rage, but are you demanding that Burning Man be different from the rest of your reality?
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Postby SFBurnergrrrl » Mon May 17, 2010 7:36 pm

@Bob

Actually I do demand that Burning Man be different from the rest of my reality which is exactly why I go.
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Postby DVD Burner » Mon May 17, 2010 7:41 pm

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:@DVD Burner

I think you made that story up. Maybe you were just so drunk you don't really remember what happened clearly. You must've really WANTED it, I'm sure you just didn't realize it cause you drank too much.


Ok, I dont mean to laugh but now you are funny.

NO I DID NOT MAKE IT UP. It really happened.

I'm not saying she hurt me in any way, just that she was violent.

and as far as drinking, I really dont get so sloppy I cant remember.

has a lot to do with my metabolism.
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Postby AntiM » Mon May 17, 2010 7:46 pm

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:@ Antim

You said,"Don't rage about what other people post on here ...". So other people can post their opinions and rage and what not, but I can't post my opinions now?


Ah, perhaps I should have phrased it better.
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Postby Sham » Mon May 17, 2010 7:49 pm

This would be an entirely different discussion if this was just some guy passing by and having a few drinks with you. We are talking a 10 year long friendship in which there were misjudgements/poor judgements and misunderstandings. Clearly this guy wanted to date you for quite some time and he really thought that the atmosphere of Burning Man has given him the chance to be with you. Add alcohol and all you end up with is confused people the next morning.

Why hasn't four years dulled this pain for you? Are you in therapy over this? Has the therapist helped you or just dragged this out for the sake of billing for all of visits? Will you ever be able to put this bad experience behind you?
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Postby AntiM » Mon May 17, 2010 7:50 pm

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:@Bob

Actually I do demand that Burning Man be different from the rest of my reality which is exactly why I go.


I find that quite interesting. I expect my regular life to be quite like Burning Man.

We live in different universes, you and I.
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Postby bm_cricket » Mon May 17, 2010 7:58 pm

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:@Bob

Actually I do demand that Burning Man be different from the rest of my reality which is exactly why I go.


Burning man is unique but not perfect. I still lock up my bicycle.
Do I lock it up to prevent predators from stealing it? Yes.
Do I lock it up to prevent people who are so fucked up they honestly think it's theirs? Yes.
It's theft either way.

The same rules apply to your situation. If it isn't consensual it doesn't matter if he's confused and drunk or malicious and a predator. According to the law it's rape either way....
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Postby gaminwench » Mon May 17, 2010 9:21 pm

SFG... In the last three paragraphs of your blog entry, you write that you dated him after this incident, did you never discuss it again? What I read is that he behaved in a guilty fashion, which you attribute to his feeling bad about getting too drunk and taking advantage; you also say that you misled him earlier in the evening, and that you understood how the situation got 'out of hand' - but you still don't actually know what happened after the dancing.
I was raped when I was 14 by a 20 year old who got me drunk(my first drink!), then raped me. I did, in my 20's, get so drunk I didn't remember having sex with an old friend...that was a different situation entirely. I realize that you are not me, but it does sound rather similar...
So, what brought you from mutual drunken mistake to date rape?
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Postby SFBurnergrrrl » Mon May 17, 2010 9:23 pm

Shambala wrote:This would be an entirely different discussion if this was just some guy passing by and having a few drinks with you. We are talking a 10 year long friendship in which there were misjudgements/poor judgements and misunderstandings. Clearly this guy wanted to date you for quite some time and he really thought that the atmosphere of Burning Man has given him the chance to be with you. Add alcohol and all you end up with is confused people the next morning.

Why hasn't four years dulled this pain for you? Are you in therapy over this? Has the therapist helped you or just dragged this out for the sake of billing for all of visits? Will you ever be able to put this bad experience behind you?



Yes. WhAt makes this situation so much harder to deal with is the fact that he was such a long time friend. I think the way you see it is how you would feel if you were in this situation, but you don't know this person or who he is. He actually said to me at one point, "I was never in love with you as you may have thought. I only ever wanted to get in your pants."

I will be writing more about this in the future, what I wrote so far in the blog is maybe about half the story. As for why it's taken so long to get over this, well I have found that if you try to supress something it never really goes away completely. You can tell yourself you're fine and nothing was a big deal but at some point in your life you have to confront these things.

It's interesting what people have to say about this. The thing is I used to react the same way when I heard stories like this. I would be like, "oh please... She must've just been so fucked up she just doesn't remember what she did." I would be like "why do girls do that" But when it actually happens to you then you understand. No one wants to believe that their friend could be a rapist and women especially don't want to believe it could ever happen to them, but the fact is, it happens way more than people realize. ( I believe someone posted earlier that about 1/3 of his girlfriends had been assualted) which is a statistic that sounds about right to me from what I remember reading. And it doesn't even make a difference if it's a friend you've known for years that you trust, or a random guy you just met. Some people are even raped by family members which also usually involves a lot of denial and self blame and confusion, I believe.

Also, I recall a conversation I had with "Travis" right before we went to Burning Man that year and this all happened. He told me his friend Darren who was also there with us at Burning Man, had had sex with This girl a few nights prior and the next day she said he raped her, that she was going to press charges. I don't know all the details, but typical, similar story to mine, I guess. Now Darren is kind of an idiot, a cool guy in some ways, but I never would've believed he would rape someone. I reacted just like everyone is reacting towards my story. A part of me thinks maybe Travis made the whole story up to see how I would react to see if he could get away with raping me, but then, that's probably me just reading too much into things. But you can see how much a situation like this can fuck with your head.
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Postby bm_cricket » Mon May 17, 2010 10:23 pm

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:Yes. What makes this situation so much harder to deal with is the fact that he was such a long time friend.


As the person who posted that "1/3 of all the women I know well have been assaulted" I feel I may get to speak to this statement you made. I also edited my post and removed that line so I would sound like less of a jerk. Either way, I want it made clear that it's 1/3 of all the women I know well. Of my close female friends I would say about 40 of them have been assaulted. What that assault was varies but the definition is pretty simple. They didn't want something sexual to happen to them and it did anyway.

So in brief: I'm sorry.

I'm sorry because your experience is so common.
I'm sorry because your friends are supposed to protect you.
I'm sorry because he violated you and your trust.
I'm sorry..

You didn't ask for this to happen. If you asked then it wouldn't be rape.

No way can someone justify that you were drunk so you deserved it... Your pants were too tight so you were obviously willing... He was just as drunk so it's just a mistake... Lots of people drink too much and do things they regret... Total bull shit. Nobody deserves it. You shouldn't have to go around fearing your friends. The mentality of sex should be changed. The culture of sexual engagement should not permit drunken decisions. And last, but not least, unless you hear a resounding and clear headed "YES" then the answer should always be assume "NO"!!

Nothing about your situation excuses his actions but I also feel very strongly about one more thing:
Burning Man shares the same beauty and flaw as the default world but both shine with a blinding intensity. Respect it. Burning Man is not perfect. It's flaws run deep.
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Postby SFBurnergrrrl » Tue May 18, 2010 12:53 am

Thanks Cricket for the supportive comments. Very well said and appreciated. And yes it's true, there's good and bad in everything even Burning Man.

As far as what I said earlier about every women demand the right to drink themselves into oblivion and pass out wherever they want, I was being a bit dramatic. The thing is, no one deserves to be raped or taken advantage of, period. No matter what "stupid" thing they do. Come on people, in this day and age we should all know that it's not the girl's fault for being raped because her skirt was too short and she looked like a slut nor for ANY other reason. I rarely drink anymore, am not fan of crawling into bed with strange men, nor have I ever passed out in the middle of the playa. However if a girl did find herself in a situation like that... For example suppose a girl drinks a little too much and is walking along, meets a guy and they start talking flirting, whatever, maybe they even start kissing a bit, and then all of a sudden they end up back at the guys camp. Well he seems like a nice enough guy and she likes him, but doesn't have any intention of sleeping with him right then. Maybe they have one more drink and all of a sudden she's way drunk and needs to lie down. Well, the guy, if he's a real man, should take responsibility to either help her back to her camp or if necessary make sure she can sleep there safely. Under no circumstances should he view this as an opportunity to try and get in the girls pants. Our paradigms need to shift in how we view these situations. The girl is not stupid for being back at the guys camp, rather he is is the stupid one if he takes advantage of the situation.

Granted, there are A LOT of women who just want to get drunk and get laid, whether it's really what they want, or what society tells them they're supposed to want, is another story. But a guy should always assume that it's not OK unless clearly communicated that it is. Plus a guy who will do anything to get laid is pathetic, and I think guys who've slept with a lot of different women are plain nasty.
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Postby curiousgnate » Tue May 18, 2010 1:50 am

Only comment i have is sorry this happened, become a stronger person for it. What I have learned form this story is A. man or woman have a wing person with you when you go out, or even two (as in this case a long time friend was a part of this catastrophy maybe one that is not in the same sexually attracted catagory), even if you aren't getting fucked up ( the ghb date rape stories abound) B. if you are going to get super fucked up make sure you follow A. C. dont get so fucked up that you can't make decisions for yourself ( i know this is hard sometimes but hello we are adults right.) D. burningman has all of the bad things the default world has (every year date rapes occur, and they could be prevented!) E. have a great fuckin burn this year I know i will!
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Postby gyre » Tue May 18, 2010 5:24 am

SFBurnergrrrl wrote:@Gaminwench

Also, I'm not you, I don't get drunk, black out and have sex willingly with guys and then not remember it the next day. Maybe you don't really do it willingly either.

How do you know you don't get aggressive when drunk?
It's common enough.
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Postby bm_cricket » Tue May 18, 2010 6:01 am

curiousgnate wrote:Only comment i have is sorry this happened, become a stronger person for it. What I have learned form this story is A. man or woman have a wing person with you when you go out, or even two (as in this case a long time friend was a part of this catastrophy maybe one that is not in the same sexually attracted catagory), even if you aren't getting fucked up ( the ghb date rape stories abound) B. if you are going to get super fucked up make sure you follow A. C. dont get so fucked up that you can't make decisions for yourself ( i know this is hard sometimes but hello we are adults right.) D. burningman has all of the bad things the default world has (every year date rapes occur, and they could be prevented!) E. have a great fuckin burn this year I know i will!


You are trying but please realize that while most of the rapes in my demographic as a student do involve booze not all of them overall do. The more universal rule to it is that one person sees an "opportunity" and takes it. The "opportunity" costs someone else their right to choose over their own body. There are dozens of points during SFburnergirl's night where it could have been prevented but I think her big gripe, and mine too, is that rape shouldn't be such a natural conclusion of letting your guard down.

She could have chosen not to attend Burning Man, not to camp with that guy, not to drink with him...
He could have chosen not to take the first chance he got without getting her notarized signature...
Her friends could have asked themselves if they understood the situation going on in that truck...
Her friends could have pulled her drunken friend aside and checked what his intentions were....
Or they could have pulled her aside and checked that she was okay under the pretense that she was potentially too drunk to sleep without constant supervision...
An asteroid could have hit the truck that night and we would not be having this conversation.

Lots of things could have happened. Unfortunately the way they did happen is the way they often happen, people assume their friends are basically decent human beings and let things slide that shouldn't. It's human nature to form friendships and it's human nature to trust those friends. That's how we've survived as a species. The only real solution I've come up with is for guys to keep each other in line. Sort of touch base every now and again to make sure everybody's on the same page about what the rules are. As someone pointed out however it's not exclusively men who violate the trust.
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Postby Sham » Tue May 18, 2010 6:06 am

Let me ask this: if the two of you woke up the next morning and were both snuggled under a warm comforter instead of you being left there sprawled out with nothing on, would you be thinking differently of him? If he said all the "right" things to you the next morning, about how special you are, and gave you a big hug, vs. being a dickhead to you, would you consider this a very special night of having "made love" vs. date rape?

It sounds a bit like his cold actions are making you feel violated and angry. Your collective reactions to each other at this point may be what's causing you such distress. He may have started this by a callous attitude the next morning, and your response to him of anger and frustration may have added to it.

Many good relationships start off like this one. A few drinks at the bar, back to the apartment for some cheap monkey dancing, and then a second date. It all depends on how the chemistry works.
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Postby bm_cricket » Tue May 18, 2010 6:20 am

Shambala wrote:Many good relationships start off like this one. A few drinks at the bar, back to the apartment for some cheap monkey dancing, and then a second date.


A valid assessment of dating life. However. During the course of that hypothetical night are the words uttered "Do you want this to happen this way?" If they don't they should and they should every time until a clear, respected relationship is formed.

Maybe she would feel differently if it had happened another way but when it comes down to it the situation isn't different. I'm assuming her facts are right with some fuzzy details around the edges. The facts don't sound like she (or maybe the other guy) had their full faculties. I don't think people should have to worry about going to jail every time they sleep with someone, nor do I think women should have to worry about being raped every time they make friends with someone. Both those things can easily be prevented by asking about boundaries and unless you hear otherwise assume the answer to every kind of kinky adventure is no. Now the real problem comes in here: Maybe he thought he heard "yes" but he really heard "mmwwizzzzzzzzzz snore". The law takes that into account and it still calls it rape.
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Postby Token » Tue May 18, 2010 7:00 am

After reading the blog and this thread a couple times I seem to have this image, in an ink-blot kind of free association way, of FKO.

Somehow this whole situation made me think of the "hand job for art" scenario from Tribe last year.

Dunno why. Maybe I'm sick n twisted like that.
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Postby gyre » Tue May 18, 2010 8:22 am

Token wrote:After reading the blog and this thread a couple times I seem to have this image, in an ink-blot kind of free association way, of FKO.

Acronym
FKO Franz-Keldysh Oscillation (Modulation Spectrum)

Still not getting this sentence at all.
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Postby AntiM » Tue May 18, 2010 8:23 am

Because FKO is a person, not an acronym. I think?
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Postby Fire_Moose » Tue May 18, 2010 8:42 am

This really boils down to one thing, and that is citizens looking out for each other. If you want to get black out drunk and pass out on the playa you absolutely can. and ya know, i bet 8 times out of 10 you'll be fine by either being watched over or someone getting a ranger. But to expect that you WILL be taken care of is deluded
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Postby ygmir » Tue May 18, 2010 9:26 am

I do so agree, that, no one should have sex forced upon them.....no matter the gender or circumstances.

What I do lament, is, how these issues, take away a lot of the "spontaneous moments", IMHO.

At times, the "random encounter, nothing said, but, a comely look" scene from an old Bogart movie, is a fantasy of many..........
This, takes that away........especially for men (IMHO).

It seems, we really should get a signed consent form for sex, maybe even with witnesses (in case the signator is in an altered mental state).
Men are almost always viewed as the aggressor, and, perpetrator........and, so, we need to take so many precautions, as far as clarity of agreement, that, well.........I don't know........just seems unfortunate.

Again, I am totally against forced or unconsenting sex.
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