If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby A-RockLeFrench » Mon Dec 02, 2013 2:19 am

I think the "should BM move" discussion is worthwhile. However, I don't think Judge Jones is the real threat to the event. We all know how much the Exodus sprinkle last year fucked everything up...

What we really should be worried about? SUPERSTORMS!!

http://www.rgj.com/interactive/article/ ... imulation-
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby ygmir » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:12 am

A-RockLeFrench wrote:I think the "should BM move" discussion is worthwhile. However, I don't think Judge Jones is the real threat to the event. We all know how much the Exodus sprinkle last year fucked everything up...

What we really should be worried about? SUPERSTORMS!!

http://www.rgj.com/interactive/article/ ... imulation-


this is so true! not even a super storm, just a good hard rain.
I'd bet most out there have no idea how a couple of inches of rain there and or even in the surrounding hills, could totally freeze movement. Even just a few days would be tough, in that the JOTS could not be serviced, and deliveries in and out would totally stop.
the very few vehicles that could actually move around would be over taxed with emergency stuff.
Be prepared** not only means to survive the heat and dry, to to last with pretty much total immobility.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby FIGJAM » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:18 am

See, I went the other way and thought 6' of water on the playa NOW would make it great for next year! 8)

And if it froze solid we could have "Burning Man on ice"!
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby BBadger » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:18 am

Maybe the hardships will scare people from going though.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Elliot » Mon Dec 02, 2013 11:27 am

:D
Have we not been thinking of the dust and heat and so forth as a wonderful screening mechanism all along?
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Captain Goddammit » Mon Dec 02, 2013 12:16 pm

Drifting and power sliding the Land Yacht on smooth ice would be a riot!!!
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Elliot » Mon Dec 02, 2013 1:34 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Drifting and power sliding the Land Yacht on smooth ice would be a riot!!!

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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby mdmf007 » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:01 pm

We moved our land speed racing venue from Blackrock Desert to the Alvord Desert in Southern Oregon. Its the same cracked earth as the Black Rock, feels the same, drives the same - Same BLM too. Most of SE Oregon is BLM administered so the same problem exists.

I have suggested dozens of times that we buy one of the 10 thousand acre turn farms in Oregon and have permanent infrastructure, same view of the mountains, no dust, grass underfoot...

Your mileage may vary.

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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby FossaFerox » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:30 pm

mdmf007 wrote:We moved our land speed racing venue from Blackrock Desert to the Alvord Desert in Southern Oregon. Its the same cracked earth as the Black Rock, feels the same, drives the same - Same BLM too. Most of SE Oregon is BLM administered so the same problem exists.

I have suggested dozens of times that we buy one of the 10 thousand acre turn farms in Oregon and have permanent infrastructure, same view of the mountains, no dust, grass underfoot...


No dust? Fuck that.

More to the point, the problem isn't with BLM it's with a county judge in Nevada who is a loose cannon. This land in Oregon sounds enticing, but damn will that be a hell of a drive for us LA folk...
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Captain Goddammit » Mon Dec 02, 2013 9:50 pm

No more drive than Black Rock is from Seattle!
I somewhat selfishly like the idea of anywhere in Oregon!
What the fuck you mean "No dust? Fuck that!"
That fucking corrosive dust is murder on equipment.
And everyone loves it when the dust levels are low at Black Rock. Nobody likes that goddamm playa dust. We just celebrate it because it means we're at Burning Man, but no one really wants the fucking dust.
Have you ever yelled - or thought - "Slow down, you're kicking up dust" at a car or mutant vehicle? How much effort goes into dust proofing tents and shelters of every sort?
Fuck the fucking dust.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby FossaFerox » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:10 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:No more drive than Black Rock is from Seattle!
I somewhat selfishly like the idea of anywhere in Oregon!
What the fuck you mean "No dust? Fuck that!"
That fucking corrosive dust is murder on equipment.
And everyone loves it when the dust levels are low at Black Rock. Nobody likes that goddamm playa dust. We just celebrate it because it means we're at Burning Man, but no one really wants the fucking dust.
Have you ever yelled - or thought - "Slow down, you're kicking up dust" at a car or mutant vehicle? How much effort goes into dust proofing tents and shelters of every sort?
Fuck the fucking dust.


I rolled in it as I came through the gate. Made dust angels. Welcomed it into my pores, my lungs, my hair.

Dust storms are magic. Monday in the daytime I almost got caught in a serious dust devil at the galaxy installation in the great circle (lots of vertical posts with LED galaxies, lots of little interactive exhibits). My camp mates shouted at me to book it and I listened, but I was sad I had afterwards. It would have passed right over me. I never saw one that big again (that one looked like a proper tornado) but I played in every swirl I saw thereafter.

The white outs on Saturday night were breathtaking. I wouldn't have wanted the weather to be like that every night, but especially on Saturday as things were winding down it was awe inspiring to watch the city vanish. We were walking back from deep playa at about 4:30 AM when every light vanished almost at once. I turned to the person with me, smiled, and said "That's coming our way. Masks on." It was about five minutes until the storm hit us, and when it did we couldn't see our hands in front of our faces. We made it back to within about 50 meters of Osiris by following the noise of the bass before we saw a single light from the city, including their lasers.

While I totally understand it's silly and senseless and selfish, I can't imagine a burn without a single dust storm.

Plus, grass would have its own host of problems. Way worse for bikes and most vehicles. It would get torn up and turn to uneven patches of mud by the second day. The city would leave a scar that would cost a fortune to reseed if it were to heal within a year...
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby BBadger » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:28 pm

Though I don't like getting attached to any particular location, and I do enjoy the comforts of areas like where Element 11 is hosted (a sea basin that is relatively cool and has some moisture), I wouldn't want the event itself to take place anywhere that there is grass or humidity. Something about that apocalyptic wasteland feeling of that dry lake bed that really adds to the whole unique experience of this particular event. The dust is part of that feeling too. Where else are you going to feel like you're at the foot of a nuclear mushroom cloud whenever there's a huge burn going on?
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby FossaFerox » Mon Dec 02, 2013 10:50 pm

Exactly. That and it helps limit attendance to the truly dedicated/adventurous.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby MikeGyver » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:07 am

Same selfish reasons as Captain, I could see it in BLM land of Imperial county, SoCal.

But, no matter where it goes Ill still go when I can afford to.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Savannah » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:03 am

I would give the Burn a shot virtually anywhere else it was ever moved to. I don't know if I would like it as much, but I'll cross that bridge if I come to it.

Dust storms have been formative experiences for me.

There was the 4 hour Wednesday storm during my first Burn in 2000 . . . during which I was probably overly zen (I read and relaxed). I stayed stubbornly behind in my little dome tent when grown men dumped their illegal fireworks with me and fled the event, like I was some sort of badass camping ninja, when I wasn't. I knew nothing. I knew virtually no one. I hadn't camped in 13 years. My tour of the damaged theme camps later was eye-opening. "Stop clinging to permanence and enjoy things while you can" was an important, slightly painful lesson. The first lesson.

There were a few in subsequent years, but the next ones I truly remember were the two 8-hour windstorms in 2008, during which I came out of my shell for the first time, and sat for hours with my neighbors, snacking and drinking, on two different sites each of those days. Goddamned if I didn't form friendships during the second epic storm--great friendships that still continue. I'm so grateful for those two storms--I'm so intensely grateful to have come through those having socialized and danced and pedaled the flaming metal duck mutant vehicle through the whiteout. I emerged with new friends, my sense of humor intact, reminded that attitude is almost everything. Those were amazing days.

. . . Oh, and the huge dust storm that descended the night of the Burn in 2010. Well, that was pure spectacle. The Burn itself--very nearly cancelled--was so crazy looking in that wild wind! Fireworks drifting, flying! So insanely dramatic. Staying as long as I dared, and then following a couple of friends back to camp, not being able to see a thing. Adventure. :)

There have been other, far more annoying storms (and this year I managed to get stuck in a tiny squall mid-Playa and get completely coated in 10 minutes when I was too tired to wash it off . . . ugh) but the dust and the weather and the isolation has been significant to my experience and . . . I'm really glad.

Go wherever you want, Burn . . . the dust's in my blood now.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby gaminwench » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:56 am

^^^ what she said ...
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Patsh » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:57 am

Savannah said it all, and so very well! :!:

(Thank you, Savannah... once again, you've hit the nail on the head.)
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Captain Goddammit » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:09 am

Dust storms may be fun to look at, but that stuff is corrosive as hell.
Wait until you're the one responsible for Burning Man infrastructure like generators, sound systems, lighting, vehicles, etc. and you won't be so crazy about it.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby VultureChow » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:17 am

I think if BM could not survive a change in venue, then it's not as wonderful or as important as we make it out to be. That said, clearly it would change the event, but I think it would become a generational shift. No site is perfect, so a new problem would exist for everyone to prepare for (complain about). It could be mud, or lightning or black flies or whatever. While the old timers would be reminiscing about how the heat and the dust were rough and transformational, the new burners would be showing off their bug bite ridden bodies proclaiming that they be grateful for just having to deal with some dust.

I'd go wherever. The logistics for me are already tough, so unless it goes overseas, I'm thinking it wouldn't be that big of a shift.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby fernley1 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:07 am

This years weather at BM was near perfect. This was my first year, but I live only 80 miles south of the playa.
To be in the desert for a whole week without a wind storm is pretty rare.
What we had this year was no wind, just a couple of gusts and dust devils.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Lonesomebri » Tue Dec 03, 2013 11:53 am

Love the dust storms.

Captain Goddammit wrote:Dust storms may be fun to look at, but that stuff is corrosive as hell.
Wait until you're the one responsible for Burning Man infrastructure like generators, sound systems, lighting, vehicles, etc....


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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby remi » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:25 pm

yes.. I would follow the Burning Man event to the fiery pits of hell, or straight into the heart of Mordor!
Can you at least admit that nuclear explosions are awesome!?
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby VultureChow » Tue Dec 03, 2013 12:50 pm

remi wrote:yes.. I would follow the Burning Man event to the fiery pits of hell, or straight into the heart of Mordor!


Frankly I think we already look a bit like Isenaard.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Captain Goddammit » Tue Dec 03, 2013 1:40 pm

If it moved much further than the 750 miles from here it is, I'd drop it.
Unless I lived in New York (again) in which case I'd go, but it would be a one-way trip west! (Again)
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby BBadger » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:09 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:Dust storms may be fun to look at, but that stuff is corrosive as hell.
Wait until you're the one responsible for Burning Man infrastructure like generators, sound systems, lighting, vehicles, etc. and you won't be so crazy about it.


But that's part of the magic of it. It's like you've left something behind -- a sacrifice -- whenever you attend the event. Shit gets ruined, things need servicing and repair, your camping gear is forever dusty. You get home and your vehicle and stuff looks like it went to the apocalypse and survived -- not just to prove that you were out there, but a side-effect of it.

It's like those truck commercials where someone comes home and their vehicle is plastered with the evidence of a trip-well-enjoyed. The car isn't just some trophy to leave on the driveway to impress the neighbors, but a tool. Likewise, the possessions that are brought and serviced for BM are merely instruments of the experience.

Don't get me wrong. I like ensuring the longevity of my stuff. I buy things as investments, not stop-gaps. For some things however, perhaps the equipment only truly realizes its value when pushed to such extremes. The candle burns short and bright, but at least it isn't sitting around as a perpetual ornament that provides no warmth. This idea can also be applied to how people approach what they bring to Burning Man: do you push your gear to the extremes because of its perceived inevitable destruction, or save parts of it for later so that you can bring it back? A blaze of glory versus self-preservation. I think part of the experience at BM is enhanced just because we know we need to, or just expect to, expend our possessions while they're still functioning.

The acceptance of this destruction and depreciation is kind of like gifting: that freedom of knowing the inevitable. The lack of attachment to some unknown future value you'd get out of something you kept for yourself. The contentment that even when something breaks, that you can restore it back to its prior condition because you have the know-how. It's like the process of life itself: you can't take it with you when you die; it's best used in life (though of course you want to ensure you can enjoy it that time you're alive).
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Lonesomebri » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:03 pm

BBadger wrote:But that's part of the magic of it. It's like you've left something behind -- a sacrifice -- whenever you attend the event... The acceptance of this destruction and depreciation is kind of like gifting: that freedom of knowing the inevitable. The lack of attachment to some unknown future value you'd get out of something you kept for yourself....


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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby Savannah » Tue Dec 03, 2013 3:05 pm

Shhhh. You can't look directly at him, or he'll STOP. :)
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby GreyCoyote » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:43 pm

Savannah wrote:Shhhh. You can't look directly at him, or he'll STOP. :)


Or he will get out those italics and WHUP on ya! :mrgreen:
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:07 pm

I'm a vote against the grass, except that we don't have a voice, and even if we did I would have forfeited it. I look at that, and envision being unable to move at all.
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Re: If Burning Man Moved, Would You Still Go?...

Postby mdmf007 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:19 pm

BM cont survie a change of Venue? Its already survived 2 changes.

The dust is a cool experience, but the novelty has worn off for me. I Spent 2.5 months on playa for three different projects in 2013....

I like barefoot in the grass myself :)
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