Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:12 pm

i've already seen your tits, elliot.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby AntiM » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:19 pm

FossaFerox wrote:
Roberto Dobbisano wrote:it's page two.

i've waited long enough.


to the OP.



can we see your tits now?


Somehow I never come across as masculine to burners. I guess I can show you my pecs if you like. Was it all the talk of wind burnt nipples in the other topic that piqued your interest? :P


We ask to see everyone's tits, whether they have them or not. Radical boobie inclusion.

You could show us you genitalia or ass, too, your option. Or not.

Do keep making observations and suggestions. Even if you get shot down, you have generated some useful and interesting discussion. A noble contribution.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Eric » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:24 pm

The event has changed to being party-oriented on the weekend as long as I've attended, and from what my campmates tell me, long before that. It's the culmination of the week, and once you hit Thursday people can start to see "the end" coming, and they want to get as much out of it as possible, which for a lot of people seems to be the aforementioned blow-out. Earlier in the week is my preferred time as well, but I know that the vibe is going to change as we near the Man burn, and I've learned to deal with it. Hell, my favorite times are the Saturday before Gate and Sunday as it's opening, because the city is still small enough to talk to people, IMHO. To me, Monday night feels like Weds used to, by Tuesday the event is already on "full-tilt boogie" in my eyes and I kind of miss the slow build to Thursday when the city really took off.

VultureChow wrote:Gender confusion on eplaya has a long and noble history. The Meet & Greet is a magnificent mind fuck the first time you put faces to names.


So true. You should have seen peoples reactions last year when we met the cranky old man that is BBadger. :lol:

AntiM wrote:We ask to see everyone's tits, whether they have them or not. Radical boobie inclusion.


Plus, some of us like male tits...
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby DrYes » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:26 pm

You could just leave early if you don't like the tone of the event on the final weekend. The last three years, I've left somewhere between an hour and a few hours before the Man burns, and feel awfully happy about doing so. I get there on the Saturday before, and a week is enough for me. Plus, perhaps like you, I enjoy the event a bit more earlier in the week due to being fresher and better rested if nothing else.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby tatonka » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:28 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:
tatonka wrote:
FossaFerox wrote:It will probably be awhile before I work up the courage to suggest anything else.
Ask about hippies on the playa next time :) I met the people who gave me sheet in my Hippie thread , all were very nice . Come to the meet and greet in 2014 and meet most everyone ya talked to , its fun and asking all the questions or suggestions is just learning all sides , nothing wrong with that.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Lonesomebri » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:06 pm

OP- there's a sense to me of a shift thru the week, as you said. I love the Esplanade at night up until about thursday. Experts and statistics be damned. Maybe part of it is me, by the second have of the week I'm dusty and beat down like worn leather, and seeing all these clean and good smelling recent arrivals adds to a feeling of duality in burners, with me being better than those others. And I don't like frat boys. And when I went to the Meet and Greet I found out that I was a female to a sizable number of people. I think that people who come late should be forced to drive endlessly around the city looking for a place to camp, at night. And the minute they have a week pass and a weekend pass, the even will be marketed as a weekend event, attracting even more tourists.

Inversely, my buddy always shakes his head as vehicles trickle out during the week and says, "Leaving early makes no sense to me, why would anyone do that?"

Even though we ourselves have left early in the past, due to "life".

New participants who are smart and engaged, willing to add suggestions, thinking issues through, contributing to the discourse are a wonderful addition to the BM community, once you show them that they are wrong and nothing can be done, the sooner we can get started.

I've been told to show my man tits while standing in front of the shouters, pecs are default world, brother.

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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby tatonka » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:11 pm

Lonesomebri wrote:OP- there's a sense to me of a shift thru the week, as you said. I love the Esplanade at night up until about thursday. Experts and statistics be damned. Maybe part of it is me, by the second have of the week I'm dusty and beat down like worn leather, and seeing all these clean and good smelling recent arrivals adds to a feeling of duality in burners, with me being better than those others. And I don't like frat boys. And when I went to the Meet and Greet I found out that I was a female to a sizable number of people. I think that people who come late should be forced to drive endlessly around the city looking for a place to camp, at night. And the minute they have a week pass and a weekend pass, the even will be marketed as a weekend event, attracting even more tourists.

Inversely, my buddy always shakes his head as vehicles trickle out during the week and says, "Leaving early makes no sense to me, why would anyone do that?"

Even though we ourselves have left early in the past, due to "life".

New participants who are smart and engaged, willing to add suggestions, thinking issues through, contributing to the discourse are a wonderful addition to the BM community, once you show them that they are wrong and nothing can be done, the sooner we can get started.

I've been told to show my man tits while standing in front of the shouters, pecs are default world, brother.

-my new signature, the coldest thing i ever read on eplaya, by one of the warmest people.....



was j/k when I was younger I was pretty ,so to be more manly I grew a fuz stache . In the service I had to shave and it grew back thicker and thicker.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby BBadger » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:24 pm

There are definitely a lot more people who arrive around Thursday+. Hell, that was when I arrived my first year. They're dressed cleaner, crowd out the esplanade, and, in our camp, end up blocking up the spaces that we had saved for them, that were nice and open up to that point. Hell, I jokingly labeled my first year group as "Thursday night douchebags" because of the joking perception of people who arrive around that time. The expectations were low for us, but we helped out a lot later in the week, especially during cleanup, and came back with a bang the next year.

Thursday is also about the time that I stop giving out lights to darktards. It's not because they're any different after Wednesday, but more about the shear number of darktards I encounter by that time. Darktards are still there in the beginning of the week too. My patience runs thin for darktards by Thursday -- which reflects my personal view-changes at the event. I think the overall perceived change in the event around that point is more a combination of multiple things:

  1. There are just more people on the playa in the second half, making it feel less intimate in general.
  2. There are just more people to negatively impact the playa. The effects of a smaller population just aren't as noticeable.
  3. Many of the camps kick their facilities in to "high-gear" for the larger crowds expected in the second half. It seems more party-like.
  4. If not kicked into high gear, some of the camps and art are still being built/finalized until halfway through the week (especially in 2012). Some of the art only gets operated to its full effect (like burning, and fuel usage) later in the week too.
  5. Having been there the first half, you're now an observer, rather than a "participant" in a surge of people filling in the city with more people. [1]
  6. You've been on playa for half a week already. Having seen everything already, you're now more interested in people rather than going out on the playa for a romp. I remember my first year -- it was all about the sights and sounds, not the camp, because we just didn't have time. Hell, I was all about the night time too, not the day for the same reasons. The second year, it was more about camp and people.
    1. People being made to arrive early may solve some of this, but maybe it'd diminish the excitement for the latter part of the week. I wouldn't give up that excitement in my first year which probably had to do with being there late. It just drove us to arrive earlier to enjoy the early part of the event and everything else like camp life and projects, etc.
  7. People who arrive earlier simply have more time in general at the event. I remember the last time I went, sometimes I was just bored, and didn't have any desire to go out and see some dusty relic in deep playa. I spent nearly a whole day just lounging around and resting in camp, eating and chatting -- all of which would have been absolutely unheard of in my first year when I arrived later in the week.
    1. That extra time or perceived investment may not translate into "better" people though. It wasn't like my deeds in camp having that extra day meant I was improving the place or socializing with people all around BRC. It just meant I had more time for myself.


[1] Now I'm waiting to hear people who have early entry bitch about the playa going to the shitter once the gate opens on Sunday/Monday, and the deluge of single-weekers enters. "We build this city from literally nothing, and set up the infrastructure for these camps, and what do these people do? Just show up, set up shops, and immediately go romping around on the playa instead of socializing with us!"
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby tatonka » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:30 pm

notice FossaFerox Lonesombri did not like my post , I respect him alot , yet I am not hurt ,I just feel it was a misunderstanding and it will mend itself.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FossaFerox » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:18 pm

tatonka wrote:notice FossaFerox Lonesombri did not like my post , I respect him alot , yet I am not hurt ,I just feel it was a misunderstanding and it will mend itself.


Of course! Why didn't I think to use logic to work through my emotional problem?
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby tatonka » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:47 pm

FossaFerox wrote:
tatonka wrote:notice FossaFerox Lonesombri did not like my post , I respect him alot , yet I am not hurt ,I just feel it was a misunderstanding and it will mend itself.


Of course! Why didn't I think to use logic to work through my emotional problem?


didnt see it as a emotional prob sry , just thought of it as someone wanting to make it better , but didnt see the whole picture.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:02 pm

The whole picture is too big!

We only get glimpses of the corners. 8)
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby tatonka » Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:11 pm

FIGJAM wrote:The whole picture is too big!

We only get glimpses of the corners. 8)



:)
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Ratty » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:10 pm

Just sayin...I worked as a greeter Thurs or Fri. (It's part of my 'deal'). There are all kinds of burners.

4 guys in a Lexus not spending the night.
2 girls in their 20s. Spending one night. Pop up tent. Beef jerky and gatorade.
3 or 4 guys totally prepared and staying till they get kicked out.

Everyone was telling us why they came so late. Free tickets for businesses in Reno. One night to party then back to work. Had to work all week but 3 days is a lot better than nothing.
Personally, if I could only spend 3 nights I would still come. Why not? I would see some friends, dance, drink, get dusty and try to stay longer next year. It's not how many nights you stay or how many years you've attended.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Savannah » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:35 pm

Ratty wrote:Personally, if I could only spend 3 nights I would still come. Why not? I would see some friends, dance, drink, get dusty and try to stay longer next year. It's not how many nights you stay or how many years you've attended.


Me, too.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Lonesomebri » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:50 pm

Actually while I felt that it was the coldest thing ever writ on eplaya, I agreed with tatonka about growing both the facial hairs and balls... It's the harshness of that statement I like. had it been directed at me, all the better. though, yeah, i would ban his son from attending. Anyway, great goaround. The various perspectives are enlightening. This is also one reason I like to stress that this event is not a music rave, it's harsh camping in the desert. Why encourage more people to attend a sold out event with the most default world of enticements; it's a wild rave with costumes and lights. Not exclusion, but encourage the artist and eccentric. I too have people ask me about Burning man, and really only want to hear about the music scene. Camping in the desert does not interest them at all. Not that you have to love that, but it is definitely a bigger part of the experience than the sound camps, horse before the cart wise. I don't like that people get a limited view of the event based on raves, DJs and feathers. I really would prefer everyone at least agreeing in principle that they'd like to stay the week even if they can't, it's not just a voyeurs weekend for them. hmmmm...penalizing late comers..ideas...I'm getting an early entry so i can line up a perpetual greet-greeters session on Wednesday and work this thing from the inside. I'll ad an oath to the things i find important to my Greeters Happytime Forms, Rituals and Hugs I plan to gift to the first car on my shift, for the entire length of my shift. And now that Ratty mentions it, more annoying than late comers, could we discourage the first question in every conversation on the playa being "How many burns have you done?" A sociological study on that phenomenon with the results include with yet another insert with the guides at entry should be commissioned.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:22 pm

VultureChow wrote:It's the name for me. FossaFerox sounds like fox, which to me has feminine connotations. Sham (nee Shambala) tripped me up because I associate names ending in a soft vowel with women. Gender confusion on eplaya has a long and noble history. The Meet & Greet is a magnificent mind fuck the first time you put faces to names.

As for making suggestions, just pick something a little easier next time. Like peace in the Middle East. Or Kirk vs Picard.

Ah, I picked up when he said something about not wanting to wear pasties. But what is the burn if not a place to fuck with your position in the gender spectrum?
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby theCryptofishist » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:31 pm

BBadger wrote:[1] Now I'm waiting to hear people who have early entry bitch about the playa going to the shitter once the gate opens on Sunday/Monday, and the deluge of single-weekers enters. "We build this city from literally nothing, and set up the infrastructure for these camps, and what do these people do? Just show up, set up shops, and immediately go romping around on the playa instead of socializing with us!"

I have felt that. Of course, DPW was feeling that days before I was.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby DrYes » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:35 pm

Savannah wrote:
Ratty wrote:Personally, if I could only spend 3 nights I would still come. Why not? I would see some friends, dance, drink, get dusty and try to stay longer next year. It's not how many nights you stay or how many years you've attended.


Me, too.


It's not, but it is a lot of work to get there. I guess it's less work if you're coming for less time.

I have nightmares leading up to BM that it's Wed or Thur and we still haven't left for the playa. The sheer panic my dream self feels at this wasted opportunity is quite unpleasant.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Savannah » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:51 pm

DrYes wrote:
Savannah wrote:
Ratty wrote:Personally, if I could only spend 3 nights I would still come. Why not? I would see some friends, dance, drink, get dusty and try to stay longer next year. It's not how many nights you stay or how many years you've attended.


Me, too.


It's not, but it is a lot of work to get there. I guess it's less work if you're coming for less time.

I have nightmares leading up to BM that it's Wed or Thur and we still haven't left for the playa. The sheer panic my dream self feels at this wasted opportunity is quite unpleasant.


I've had those, too! I suppose many of us have. And they really suck. :?
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby DrYes » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:58 pm

Savannah wrote:
DrYes wrote:
Savannah wrote:
Me, too.


It's not, but it is a lot of work to get there. I guess it's less work if you're coming for less time.

I have nightmares leading up to BM that it's Wed or Thur and we still haven't left for the playa. The sheer panic my dream self feels at this wasted opportunity is quite unpleasant.


I've had those, too! I suppose many of us have. And they really suck. :?


For me, they're an extension of this horrible series of nightmares I've had since I was a little kid, where I'm somewhere cool, doing something time-limited (vacation, etc), and I just can't get the people around me to respond and GO ALREADY. I think it's become this generic substitution for the feeling of frittering your life away to me, which I never want to do. Time slows down for me at BM, and that week seems longer in my memory than any other week of the year. Maybe I don't experience it that way, and I know I was in emotional pain on Friday this year that it I'd be leaving the next day, but in my memory, I can feel the texture of my life changing from hour to hour in a way that I can't in the rest of my life, as the rest of my life blurs together to a much greater degree.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby BBadger » Wed Oct 16, 2013 1:46 am

One of the reasons I like my regional is that I can be a weekender. I can go there and not have to bring as much stuff, push myself as hard as possible, and then go home after it's all over after a couple nights. It may also be that it can get kind of boring there during the day compared to a bigger event like Burning Man. Still, the weekendering is a lot less stress than prepping for Burning Man. In the end I enjoy both experiences, and I'm glad I get to go to two festivals per year (or just the regional this year).
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby tummler » Wed Oct 16, 2013 9:51 pm

So someone disagrees with your discussion point and now you feel you've been labeled a bad burner who can't freely post for fear of snark-back? That's your own thing. Truly.

If having a not-so-great idea makes a person a bad person, then I'm in big trouble, being so very full of ideas, some of which are just plain bad. To me, sounds like you're carrying some judgementalism and some notions about power, hierarchy, and status.

Maybe, if you don't like how things were for you on the weekend, do something small and concrete, as has been suggested by others above. Like that expression, change your space, change your luck.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Elliot » Wed Oct 16, 2013 10:43 pm

BBadger wrote:...

[1] Now I'm waiting to hear people who have early entry bitch about the playa going to the shitter once the gate opens on Sunday/Monday,...

*raises hand*
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FossaFerox » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:03 am

tummler wrote:So someone disagrees with your discussion point and now you feel you've been labeled a bad burner who can't freely post for fear of snark-back? That's your own thing. Truly.

If having a not-so-great idea makes a person a bad person, then I'm in big trouble, being so very full of ideas, some of which are just plain bad. To me, sounds like you're carrying some judgementalism and some notions about power, hierarchy, and status.

Maybe, if you don't like how things were for you on the weekend, do something small and concrete, as has been suggested by others above. Like that expression, change your space, change your luck.


It wasn't that someone didn't like my idea, it was that someone I knew of and considered a relatively sizable pillar of the community here and on the Playa (in so far as the playa can have pillars) said I missed the point of the burn when I consider the burn to have changed my life.

Seriously, when I was designing my camp and posting here in the months leading up to the burn I looked into the listed camps of the people I found posting frequently out of curiosity. When I saw the Eridu Society setup in person I recognized it. This was not an anonymous person whose name meant nothing. I respect Trilo's opinion. So yeah, it hurt. But you're right, it is mostly my own thing. I don't deal well with what I consider unwarranted criticism from people whose opinions I care about.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby BBadger » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:30 am

FossaFerox wrote:It wasn't that someone didn't like my idea, it was that someone I knew of and considered a relatively sizable pillar of the community here and on the Playa (in so far as the playa can have pillars) said I missed the point of the burn when I consider the burn to have changed my life.

Seriously, when I was designing my camp and posting here in the months leading up to the burn I looked into the listed camps of the people I found posting frequently out of curiosity. When I saw the Eridu Society setup in person I recognized it. This was not an anonymous person whose name meant nothing. I respect Trilo's opinion. So yeah, it hurt. But you're right, it is mostly my own thing. I don't deal well with what I consider unwarranted criticism from people whose opinions I care about.


Try not to take it too hard. Your ideas were summarily dismissed as "not getting it" because this pattern of trying to improve the event via scapegoating has been played out virtually every year (month?) since the event began. It's also hard -- after having your mind blown your first burn and simultaneously being exposed to the less ideal aspects of the event -- to not try and foist your utopian views on the masses from your recent revelations.

The important thing is that you learn from the process and the criticism. This doesn't mean blindly accepting other peoples' views -- which often is a cause of "not getting it" -- but thinking beyond your, or any others', individual experience. Hell, use that in any context that involves multiple people and it'll help you manage problems that arise.

Also, embrace criticism, or at least the kind where someone is taking the time to try and explain things to you. In Trilo's case, the response was a bit short but that was probably because others had elaborated the points already in this posting, and hundreds of others. Regardless, it's when people you care about don't give you feedback (criticism), that you should be worrying. That's when you're a lost cause. That's also when people will use more snark as a means of criticism -- at your expense.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Elliot » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:04 am

:D
Ya know, folks….

Based partly on this conversation (and on prior similar ones), I have made a “philosophical decision”. This may even have been a small epiphany.

When I started going, I immediately saw the event as a utopia. In hindsight, I probably “saw” stuff that wasn’t there. Wishful thinking, ya know -- frustrated idealist that I am. And I suppose I have been clinging to that concept.

Well, Black Rock City now has roughly the same size population as here in Lake County. Lake County, and specially the town of Clearlake, is a veritable repository of criminals, thugs and low-lifes. BRC is immensely better!

So I have changed gears. I can accept that BRC will never be “perfect”. Yet I can enjoy it immensely. (Here in Clearlake I know of one (1) worthwhile public work of art.)

I will make a conscious effort to not allow the cigarette-butt-tossers to darken my mood for even a second of irreplaceable Playa time. I’ll just pick the butt up and be glad I was able to contribute that.

There is probably a word for this – “self-hypnotizing” or some such. :wink:


All that said… I still very much believe in the harm of “desensitizing”, as I talked about earlier. But I only have something like 20 years left to live, so… the heck with it. Let the next generation deal with it. I’m retired.

Maybe, in another five or ten years I’ll start dancing to techno. :lol:


(And, no, this was not satire.)
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Eric » Thu Oct 17, 2013 12:48 pm

Elliot wrote:There is probably a word for this – “self-hypnotizing” or some such. :wink:


I've called my self a "realistic idealist" before: I can see in my dreams the world I'd like to be, but I can recognize the actual world around me. Doesn't mean you can't strive for better things, but you approach them realistically instead of letting your idealism block you from actually doing anything useful because you want really big changes instead of incremental ones.

In the case of this thread, the idealist sees the city change on the weekend and sees the "weekenders" as the cause of the change. The realist sees the city change on the weekend and realizes there are multiple reasons for it, and then can narrow in on the actual issue - the growth of MOOP on the weekends. Now both the idealistic brain and the realistic brain can come up with creative ideas how to deal with that MOOP (think Robbidobs and the PottiProject, or the ideas "the MOOP Nazi" had before he disappeared).
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Elliot » Thu Oct 17, 2013 1:22 pm

Recognizing the actual world has been an outright failure for me since early childhood. But what you say makes great sense to me now.
Hopefully I will never stop learning.

(The MOOP Nazi was a well-intended sock, but I have forgotten who it actually was.)
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby fernley1 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 2:09 pm

Im over 50, and for the first time in my life, I danced to dubstep/techno and loved it. This was my first burn(2013).
Can't wait to dance next year!
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