Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby trilobyte » Mon Oct 14, 2013 11:18 pm

It's great that the FossaFerox has changed positions, but still an incredibly hypocritical (and lame, IMO) thread to even float. In one single wordy post, you've proven (to me, anyways) that you may have missed the point. Better luck next time.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FossaFerox » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:28 am

Wow, that seems a bit harsh. Being frustrated with people leaving beer cans in the portos and leaking batteries on the playa makes me a bad burner?

My way of dealing with the frustration wasn't to call anyone out or even insult the people responsible. Instead I spent some time thinking about it until I came up with what was an admittedly misguided but ultimately well meaning solution. In my mind the effort and planning that goes into a longer stay combined with being part of the community for a longer period of time both correlate with more respectful behavior. And well I know this obviously isn't a universal rule, particularly in the case of veteran burners who can't come the full week on a given year due to default obligations, I'm pretty sure it's largely true.

The weekender phenomenon is an actual phenomenon, whatever the cause. Perhaps this is a bad solution, perhaps no solution is warranted, but saying I missed the point of the burn for floating ideas? Seriously?
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Eric » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:57 am

FossaFerox wrote:The weekender phenomenon change in tone on the weekend is an actual phenomenon, whatever the cause.


Fixed that.


Calling it a "weekender phenomenon" once again attributes it to the mythical swarms of weekenders. Look at the satellite pictures of the Burn generally taken on Thursday morning - the place is packed (the photo at the bottom of this post was taken on Thursday, Aug 29th, 2013: the place is already quite full, without "weekenders"). I find VultureChow's assessment to be a lot more grounded in reality than blaming it on the couple thousand who show up after Thursday. By the time they get there, they're just a drop in a bucket that's already got 50,000+ people in it.


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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FossaFerox » Tue Oct 15, 2013 1:27 am

I used the term because it's familiar and widely understood, misleading or not. I'm hesitating as I write this because I've already been deemed a bad burner by Trilo, which stings more than a little, but I need to point one thing out. If you doubt how much 5% of the population can potentially influence the overall atmosphere of the event you need to brush up on the concept of tipping points.

When there's very little MOOP around people are much more mindful about picking it up and taking care of their own possessions. When there's piles of junk accumulating on the esplanade, otherwise good people tend to shift away from responsible behavior.

When everyone's friendly it's easy to be friendly. The first time someone ignores you and accidentally puts out a lit cigarette on your arm as he squeezes through the crowd you are less inclined to talk to strangers.

From there, it spirals.

But now you've got me in a bad mood...

One final note, even it the theory has no basis in reality it will always be an attractive theory for one simple reason. Without a distinct cause to point to, the cause appears to be insidious and ubiquitous. This would mean that even at the most magical event in the world the good will and generosity of spirit necessary to keep things tidy and social run out faster than our food and water.

That's depressing.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Savannah » Tue Oct 15, 2013 2:08 am

Depressing? . . . Consider another look at the 2013 MOOP Map. Yes, there is some filthy litter and brutal social loafing that you (and many of us) have encountered--see "Top Asshats of 2013" thread--but this has occurred every year. In front of many of us. You are not the lone observer. There are bad apples, and some are absolutely disgusting. They maintain a steady proportion of any city's population, not just Black Rock's. But they do not appear at a specific time with which you can successfully weed them out. People really DO try to drink everything and pop everything they have on the weekend, and not take it back on the plane. Lots of regular people who've been there the whole week--kinda sleep-deprived to begin with--get extra effed up on the weekend and litter and get exhausted and do some bad things. But even then--we're doing WAY better than we used to. (Did you see the portos in the year 2000, or 2001?)

One of the finest Burners I've ever known had to contend with restrictive work hours in 2011 or so when he started a new job, and worried about attending weekend only. He's a firefighter, welder/mechanic, a killer MOOPer, etc. If he wanted to attend on a weekend, no one has the right to tell him he shouldn't. Nor should anyone sit in judgment of a fluffy 18-year-old who shows up, dances around and cleans up after himself/herself and leaves. Everyone starts somewhere.

The MOOP map is terrific--and on the year with our biggest population. Work in progress, yes, but I'm honestly shocked and inspired.
http://blog.burningman.com/wp-content/u ... _3500w.gif

Search "MOOP map [year]" on the main site if you want to see what it's been like in previous years. Not as good, even with thousands fewer people.

Legislating weekend attendance is not the answer, in my opinion. I'm pro-cleanliness and accountability and LNT, but seriously--when you come in isn't relevant.

If you would like to educate late arrivals, working Greeters is your bag. Keep it short, though. People who are running late prefer the 60 second greeting. :)
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FossaFerox » Tue Oct 15, 2013 3:30 am

I'd be more willing to believe that if things had only gotten bad on Saturday night, but the "blowout swallow-everything party" idea falls apart when you start seeing people being shitty early Friday morning. That was the day I watched someone cut in line at Artica and shout "What are you going to do about it?" with a sneer when someone spoke up in protest.

Now again, I NEVER meant to imply that everyone who shows up late is bad or should feel bad, but the people I met as the week progressed (whether it's because they were new or had been there all week and grown callous) steadily deteriorated from Thursday onward. And again, this isn't just about MOOP.

I spent the months leading up to the event hearing how Burning Man was about the people more than anything, and that was where I saw a less tangible but even more dramatic shift.

I spent most of Monday daytime riding around the deep playa and great circle offering lemon water to artists working hard to finish up their projects last minute. I got my first and favorite gift that day as a thank you for what I was doing, a bottle opener necklace which read "Be Your Gift" and I vowed to live up to it. I felt like I could talk to anyone, and everyone I did talk to was excited to connect. By Friday night it felt like I was back in Los Angeles wandering a random strip between clubs. Saturday night was a great party, to be sure, but incidentals aside it didn't feel all that special, nothing like Wednesday night.

Since I had scrapped my backpack for nighttime use after the first day I started carrying a 1 gallon jug with me when I would go out at night. Each night I'd wind up gifting away about half of what I brought out with me. Most of the people whose containers I refilled were overly grateful and I in turn was ecstatic to have been able to help them out. Compare that to Friday night where someone stole my jug when I set it down outside the portopotty I was using. This was at the 3 o'clock road bathrooms in the circle, about a mile from my camp. Kind of a bummer.

Tuesday night I wound up spending over an hour riding around in the Nexus MV after I helped them get their vehicle out of a loose dust dune. I chatted with the Nexus campers for a long time and they helped make my burn what it was. Aside from two other people, one of whom I also met and spoke to that night, they had a more profound impact on my burn than anyone other than the people in my camp. Compare that to Saturday night where no one I hadn't met already even talked to me, aside from one pair of girls pausing to ask if I knew where The Forest was. This includes the couple that rolled on top of my friend AT the forest earlier that night, ripping off her Vogmask in the process. I didn't even get an apology out of them, just a disgruntled noise from the guy when we asked him to roll back over so she could retrieve her mask.

These are all stories that would do wonderfully in the "asshats" thread, but while I've read the thread I never felt the need to post. That's because until now I was trying to avoid dwelling on any one bad thing that happened. Despite it all the event was overwhelmingly positive for me, but that was 90% because of the people I met and interacted with Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday.

You can't pretend that there isn't a cultural shift around Friday, and you can't attribute it all to drugs. Perhaps I was looking for a scapegoat on some level, perhaps I was just desperate to brainstorm any solution to what I see as a very real problem, whether or not the problem is timeless. But apparently that makes me a bad burner.

And now I can't sleep.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:17 am

i showed up on thursday, after traveling for a week and a half....because i had difficulties beyond your wildest dreams.

am i part of the "problem"? because I have been burning longer than you have been legally drinking.



i know what you are trying to say, and i have also felt that sun-wed is a different vibe, but you are trying to alleviate this issue by punishing those who for some reason or another can't make it until the week-end.

that is the problem I have with your post.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:30 am

Nobody called you a "Bad Burner".

That was your term and your impresion, just like the rest of your observations.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby VultureChow » Tue Oct 15, 2013 5:49 am

FossaFerox wrote: But apparently that makes me a bad burner.

And now I can't sleep.



You're not a bad burner. And for god's sake relax. A forum discussion is not worth making yourself sick and tired.

Many of us new burners go through the same thoughts and emotions. The event becomes very important to us very quickly. And it's easy to find a problem and think we have the solution. This board is filled with them. Everything from ticketing to exodus.

And some have gone on to really work at fixing the issues they find. Some join GPE. Robbidobbs formed the Potty Project to improve porto potty behavior and educate about how to keep them functional and nice. Simon worked on getting DJs at big sound camps to encourage people to clean up the moop in between sets.

But both of these solutions work on improving behavior, not excluding people based on an arbitrary deadline or characteristic.

What you are going through is normal. The experiences you had, both positive and negative are real. And for the record, I agree that there is a big shift in the vibe late in the week. But I've had very negative experiences early in the week and very positive ones on Friday and Saturday.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:21 am

VultureChow wrote:
FossaFerox wrote: But apparently that makes me a bad burner.

And now I can't sleep.



You're not a bad burner. And for god's sake relax. A forum discussion is not worth making yourself sick and tired.

Many of us new burners go through the same thoughts and emotions. The event becomes very important to us very quickly. And it's easy to find a problem and think we have the solution. This board is filled with them. Everything from ticketing to exodus.

And some have gone on to really work at fixing the issues they find. Some join GPE. Robbidobbs formed the Potty Project to improve porto potty behavior and educate about how to keep them functional and nice. Simon worked on getting DJs at big sound camps to encourage people to clean up the moop in between sets.

But both of these solutions work on improving behavior, not excluding people based on an arbitrary deadline or characteristic.

What you are going through is normal. The experiences you had, both positive and negative are real. And for the record, I agree that there is a big shift in the vibe late in the week. But I've had very negative experiences early in the week and very positive ones on Friday and Saturday.




+100


seriously, do not take what us fuckos say in jest as the Truth According to Gawd.....you are not a "bad burner" because you made a suggestion...no one said that except you...so stop being hard on yourself, and realize that eplaya can be rough and tumble, we are bored and waiting somewhat impatiently for next summer.

give us back what we toss out....if we throw poo, throw it back....it's all good....i make mistakes ALL of the time, it's how i learn.


i must be real smart by now... :twisted:
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FossaFerox » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:20 am

Sorry.

When the site admin and head of a camp I recognize (I was camping two blocks from him and passed Eridu daily) hops onto the thread after the discussion has ended and I've reversed my stance just to say what he said, I take it seriously and I take it hard. Had almost anyone else said it I would have been completely fine. Admittedly I've been a little emotionally volatile lately, which is part of why I've been reflecting back to the burn so much these past few days, but his post at the top of this page was still a real kick in the teeth.

Sadly, getting wrapped up in what people I respect think of me isn't exactly a conscious decision nor is it something I can turn off when it's inconvenient. Now if you'll excuse me, I have to drink enough caffeine to kill a small child. Work is going to be interesting today.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby VultureChow » Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:55 am

Trilo? You're going to listen to that idiot? :twisted:

I was literally in the same place as you this year. I made an offhand comment about douchey frat guys and was schooled by our camp's founder and (still at the time) mayor. As far as I know I haven't been banned yet. I understand that it's impossible to control how you are going to react emotionally to something like that. Once upon a time it would have devastated me. But the great and unique thing about the playa is that while the environment may not be forgiving and accepting, the people generally are.

Now go and drink all of the coffee in the world. I recommend 30 minutes of pointless flash games (something involving zombies usually) to get over any lingering feelings of self doubt.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:32 am

c'mon now...

some people pay huge money for a Spanksy™
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby trilobyte » Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:37 am

Yes, wanting to limit or exclude other people from an event that you've only just started becoming involved with is hypocritical, and in my personal opinion, lame. I didn't call you a bad burner, I said you may have missed the point. Right up there in that list of principles that says Leave No Trace is another one that says radical inclusion...not radical exclusion.

I'm sorry if pointing that out seems harsh. My being the site admin doesn't make my personal opinion any different or carry any more/less weight than the personal opinion of anyone else on ePlaya.

Again, speaking personally, I don't feel that the way to enlighten or improve others is to exclude them or make them feel unwanted or less desirable or less welcome. It's a shame to see when peoples' solution to a behavior problem isn't to try and help change and improve the behavior, but to look for ways to limit or exclude other groups. Positive reinforcement and encouragement has worked well for the event so far (look at the progression of MOOP maps over the last 7 years), if anything I'd say we need more of it, not less.

Black Rock City is a pretty big place. If the place you're at on Friday or Saturday night (or any night of the week, for that matter) is too busy or crowded or just doesn't have the right vibe for you... keep moving. The city is ridiculously diverse, and for every camp whose idea of a party is hundreds or thousands of people, there are a hundred camps whose idea of a party is much smaller.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby tatonka » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:02 am

if I brought my 28 year son , he would be the frat type . He would listen to the rules but later be a noisey ass drinker , i like him better when he's stoned :)
he wants to go , but I remind him of costs . He sees the event as a big party and he would have fun doing it his way. I see the art and the people and that was my fun.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Elliot » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:37 am

FossaFerox wrote:... That was the day I watched someone cut in line at Artica and shout "What are you going to do about it?" with a sneer when someone spoke up in protest.

...

Seems to me, this represents the core of our concern. But all our suggestions -- though I believe well-intended -- are likely useless -- or even worse, yes. There is probably no realistic way on Earth to filter such people out, no matter what day they arrive or whatnot.

Some of us -- perhaps long-time frustrated idealists like me -- react strongly to even a single incident of... what we perceive as a setback for a community (however temporary) that has the potential to approach a utopian level. Yes, that's how this burner views the event. Not as the Burning Man dance hall, but as the Black Rock City community to live a utopian lifestyle for one precious week a year. (And I now know that "you guys" believe this is also a valid way to burn, thank Larry. I no longer need to feel guilty over my failing to wear a neon-blinking fur coat.)

I am not real bright, but I am trainable. I do listen to the majority arguments, and accept them as valid. I also work deliberately to overcome my excessively perfectionistic and judgmental traits.

But I am convinced it would be a sad thing for us all to become desensitized to oafish behavior. That would return BM toward default world standards. In some default world communities people don't even look up when they hear gunshots in the neighborhood. Such desensitizing could creep into BRC -- which would surely be tragic?
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby VultureChow » Tue Oct 15, 2013 9:55 am

While finding creative ways to discourage the assholes from being assholes should be on everyone's mind, utopias don't exist. Burning man is pretty self-selecting, so I would venture to guess that the asshole:angel ratio is less at BM than in the general population. But it's a an asymptotic ratio. It can approach zero, but will never equal zero..

I don't think we should ever stop looking for ways to make Burning Man better, but we should make it better for everyone. Not just those we deem worthy.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Elliot » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:29 am

VultureChow wrote:While finding creative ways to discourage the assholes from being assholes should be on everyone's mind, utopias don't exist. Burning man is pretty self-selecting, so I would venture to guess that the asshole:angel ratio is less at BM than in the general population. But it's a an asymptotic ratio. It can approach zero, but will never equal zero..

I don't think we should ever stop looking for ways to make Burning Man better, but we should make it better for everyone. Not just those we deem worthy.

I agree with that, except two little things.
The "mathematical" impossibility of Utopia is my very point. I agree it cannot exist in real life. But Burning Man is in a sense one giant street theater performance, and I enjoy playing my role as a Utopian. Such blessed relief from the flaws of the default world!
And I will likely always be annoyed by the few truly incorrigible assholes that "must" exist in a city of 60,000. That's my problem, but I stand by what I said about general desensitizing.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Dr. Pyro » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:33 am

VultureChow wrote: I was literally in the same place as you this year. I made an offhand comment about douchey frat guys and was schooled by our camp's founder and (still at the time) mayor. As far as I know I haven't been banned yet.

No you're not banned! I take a certain amount of offense at people ragging on "frat guys" because most of us are not "douchey" and if it hadn't been for my fraternity at UCSB (ZBT) I would never had met our camp's vintner and likely never would have made it to Burning Man. Now for those frat boys are are in fact douchey, well, fuck their day all to hell.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Elliot » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:47 am

What the doctor said. :D
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FossaFerox » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:49 am

trilobyte wrote:Yes, wanting to limit or exclude other people from an event that you've only just started becoming involved with is hypocritical

It would be hypocritical if I were looking to exclude virgins. I drew the distinction in my opening post. There are a lot of flaws with my original line of thinking, but hypocrisy wasn't one of them. I'm looking strictly at behavior, which I had correlated strongly to time spent on the playa. This may or may not be the case, but I concede that the risk of penalizing innocents (even symbolically) and making them feel less welcome as the result of a blanket policy would be wrong.

trilobyte wrote:Again, speaking personally, I don't feel that the way to enlighten or improve others is to exclude them or make them feel unwanted or less desirable or less welcome. It's a shame to see when peoples' solution to a behavior problem isn't to try and help change and improve the behavior, but to look for ways to limit or exclude other groups.

Actually, it was EXACTLY that. I didn't (and still don't) think a surcharge would actually exclude anyone from attending. Burning Man is an extremely expensive proposition with the true cost being several times the ticket price. The surcharge would be a drop in the bucket.

The charge was intended to make people either come earlier, thus spending more time planning and being part of the community for a longer period of time, or hopefully reflect on what it means to join the community late if they end up paying the small fee. If there's a tourism tax, hopefully people will give some thought to the fact that anti-social tourism is frowned upon.

Yes, radical inclusion is important, but the people I was most put off by were the people who had no interest in including others. Plus, participation and immediacy are more important principles in my book. But yes, making some of the many truly wonderful late arrivals feel less welcome would be unfortunate, if they didn't understand what the surcharge was for and why it wasn't really directed at them. That's why I abandoned my original stance.

trilobyte wrote: Positive reinforcement and encouragement has worked well for the event so far (look at the progression of MOOP maps over the last 7 years), if anything I'd say we need more of it, not less.

No argument there. Do you have any ideas to float? It will probably be awhile before I work up the courage to suggest anything else.

trilobyte wrote:Black Rock City is a pretty big place. If the place you're at on Friday or Saturday night (or any night of the week, for that matter) is too busy or crowded or just doesn't have the right vibe for you... keep moving. The city is ridiculously diverse, and for every camp whose idea of a party is hundreds or thousands of people, there are a hundred camps whose idea of a party is much smaller.

It had absolutely nothing to do with the size of the event or the density of the crowds. The city was PACKED Wednesday night and that was quite probably the best night of my life. The difference is the overall attitudes and openness of the people I was surrounded by, and it wasn't something that could easily be escaped. The shift was pervasive. If it wasn't city wide, the untouched pockets were hard to find. The bottom line, though, is that I'd rather be packed shoulder to shoulder with a group of friendly, social people than have twice the space in a group of people who are closed off, selfish, or inconsiderate.

One final word, your being a site admin does give your personal opinion weight. People respect you; some because they have to, some because you've earned it, and some because it's in their nature. The bottom line is your words have impact. Beyond that, your behavior serves as an example to others. Please be mindful of that.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:52 am

"No you're not banned! I take a certain amount of offense at people ragging on "frat guys" because most of us are not "douchey" and if it hadn't been for my fraternity at UCSB (ZBT) I would never had met our camp's vintner and likely never would have made it to Burning Man. Now for those frat boys are are in fact douchey, well, fuck their day all to hell."


So speaketh the iron fisted tire ant! :lol:
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby VultureChow » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:55 am

I didn't actually think I was banned. The OP was taking the criticism hard. Way harder than necessary. We all have our prejudices. If it feels bad when someone points them out, congratulations! That means you have a conscience.

It hurts even worse when it's someone you respect.

Thank god it was just Doc
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:09 am

it's page two.

i've waited long enough.


to the OP.



can we see your tits now?
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Savannah » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:11 am

VultureChow wrote:I didn't actually think I was banned. The OP was taking the criticism hard. Way harder than necessary. We all have our prejudices. If it feels bad when someone points them out, congratulations! That means you have a conscience.

It hurts even worse when it's someone you respect.

Thank god it was just Doc


Hahaha!


FossaFerox, maybe you should come socialize in the Bar thread.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby FossaFerox » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:16 am

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:it's page two.

i've waited long enough.


to the OP.



can we see your tits now?


Somehow I never come across as masculine to burners. I guess I can show you my pecs if you like. Was it all the talk of wind burnt nipples in the other topic that piqued your interest? :P
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby tatonka » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:34 am

FossaFerox wrote:It will probably be awhile before I work up the courage to suggest anything else.
Ask about hippies on the playa next time :) I met the people who gave me sheet in my Hippie thread , all were very nice . Come to the meet and greet in 2014 and meet most everyone ya talked to , its fun and asking all the questions or suggestions is just learning all sides , nothing wrong with that.
Grow some facial hair it may help with the gender confusion :)
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby VultureChow » Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:41 am

It's the name for me. FossaFerox sounds like fox, which to me has feminine connotations. Sham (nee Shambala) tripped me up because I associate names ending in a soft vowel with women. Gender confusion on eplaya has a long and noble history. The Meet & Greet is a magnificent mind fuck the first time you put faces to names.

As for making suggestions, just pick something a little easier next time. Like peace in the Middle East. Or Kirk vs Picard.
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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:10 pm

tatonka wrote:
FossaFerox wrote:It will probably be awhile before I work up the courage to suggest anything else.
Ask about hippies on the playa next time :) I met the people who gave me sheet in my Hippie thread , all were very nice . Come to the meet and greet in 2014 and meet most everyone ya talked to , its fun and asking all the questions or suggestions is just learning all sides , nothing wrong with that.
Grow some balls it may help with the gender confusion :)




well, my bad.



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Re: Has the LLC ever actively discouraged late arrival?

Postby Elliot » Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:11 pm

FossaFerox, "show us your tits" is a standard wise-crack on ePlaya.
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