American Flags Flying in Black Rock City

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby blyslv » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:23 am

"The law is an ass."

I'm not sure that the lawsuits will be inevitable. The woman who died this year was not the first.

BTW I found out about an hour from now that I passed the bar, so...

FUCK YOUR DAY!
Fight for the fifth freedom!
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Patriotic to what?

Postby Chimp » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:31 am

Flying flags sucks I reckon, any flags, especially the US one right next to those little fake wigwams people camp in, I mean is that taking the piss or what? Also think about it - The American Goverment is currently trampling on people's civil liberties both internally and internationally, WMD? Who's the only country to have actually used the atomic bomb huh? Plus er, like...'no there can be no independent inspections of US weapons facilties', um, 'yes there are little kids at Camp X Ray', ' A pipeline through Afghanistan? A capital idea!', 'Never mind the election we'll just stop those pesky black folks from voting', "Ariel Sharon? Top bloke, never mind his butchering history lets get behind him', 'If we train and fund this guy called Osama we can hold back the Russians in a place thousands of miles from here, what do you think?', 'Drugs for the AIDS epidemic in africa, sure but evertyone has gotta pay' - Rodney King, Martin Luther King, JFK, John Lennon, Watergate, Attica, the list, as all lists, goes on and on -

Surely the only flag to fly on The Playa is the symbol of the man, all national flags / 'symbols' are tarnished with a history of blood and hatred, the symbol of the burn is not - Please, please don't get me wrong, I love the American People I know, really, I absolutely adore them - they are sharp, intelligent, beautiful souls with a firm belief in freedom and individual liberty but I am always wary of allegiance to 'the flag', synoymous in a way with allegiance to 'the state'

If this all seems a bit strong sorry, but the American flag is coming to represent the American republican in the eyes of much of the world - And the American republican is coming to represent hypocrisy, repression and aggression - burning man could not happen anywhere else and america is a wonderful place and the birthplace of liberty and radical free expression but right now I think there is something rotten at the heart of it's government and I think sadly that the flag represents that government

I am deeply sorry if this offends anyone

Love / Peace and Hope

Jp
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Re: Patriotic to what?

Postby Liverace » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:38 am

JP / Chimp wrote:Flying flags sucks I reckon, any flags, especially the US one ...I am deeply sorry if this offends anyone

Hate / Cynicism and Vitriol
Jp


JP, I am delighted to learn of your misplaced antipathy for America. I trust that your delusions will preclude you from ever trying to set foot in my country again. If not, we can have Mr. Ashcroft arrange a full cavity search at your port of entry.

Cheerio!
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Postby TestesInSac » Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:13 am

Ya know, I do get sick of the left-wing fuckwit foreigners that bash the US, but *have* to come to the US to enjoy Burning Man, because their own People's Republik of ____ won't allow such an event on their own soil.

Maybe they should stay the fuck home and set themselves free first...
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Re: fly it high, upsidedown!

Postby Taniwha » Tue Sep 09, 2003 1:43 pm

crimbopple wrote:i had a good chuckle seeing the American Flag flown upsidedown. It made the little gears TURN TURN TURN in my head. Not that it is necessarily "unAmerican." It can mean other, more thought provoking, things


In particular it's an international sign of distress (however don't do as I once did and go into a Post Office that's accidentally flying theirs upside down and ask tounge-in-cheek "are you being robbed?" they don't like it)
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Postby s5 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:19 pm

casnimot wrote:Ok, let me put the question in a form even a hippie could appreciate: Would B.man be tolerated in California? Would safety, public health, etc. regulations on the books in CA preclude such an event here? Would the social engineering in CA further geld any BM type event attempted here?


a better question - would burning man be tolerated in any other state other than nevada? i would love to see burning man try to go off in texas, virginia, florida, arizona, etc etc. and not to mention all the other states in the US that are either forest (like oregon and washington), densely packed urban jungle (like all of the northeast), or difficult for travel (like alaska).

the fact that it takes place in nevada (on federal land, for that matter), which is compromised of mostly empty land, and allows prostitution, gambling, etc, and yet the event still has to send bribes and battle on a year to year basis with local communities to stay alive, is hardly a condemnation of california or anywhere else in the US. it's pretty amazing that bmorg found *somewhere* in the radical christian, drug war obsessed united states that would allow such an event.
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Woah...

Postby kyla » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:28 pm

casnimot wrote:Ya know, I do get sick of the left-wing fuckwit foreigners that bash the US, but *have* to come to the US to enjoy Burning Man, because their own People's Republik of ____ won't allow such an event on their own soil.
Maybe they should stay the fuck home and set themselves free first...


This doesn't exactly make us foreigners feel welcome! I thought Burning Man was a place where nationality, race, religion, culture didn't matter. I thought we came together collectively as like minded people, willing to appreciate and celebrate each other and what has been created over the years as a place of freedom for all. This thread has surprised and disappointed me.
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Postby olivia » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:29 pm

you could hold an event like burning man in many other countries. why do people expect that an event like burning man could only happen in america? it did start in america, yes. i understand that. but to say no other country would allow for a festival like burning man is incredibly bizarre to me. have you actually left the country any time recently, if ever?

for instance: the 4-day festival desert eclipse (photos: http://hamfisted.net/pictures/2002/eclipse/), held 900km north of adelade in australia, centered around viewing a solar eclipse in 2002. i can't find a headcount but check out the photos, very reminicent of early burning man. earthdream happens nearby every year, check out http://www.earthdream.net

new zealand had a large event (well, large for NZ anyway: 15,000 attendees out of a population of 4 million) called the gathering (http://www.obscure.co.nz/culture/gathering) that went for 4 days and was held in a paddock on an exposed hilltop in a completely rural area on the south island. it was a music festival, sharing some common elements with burning man. the festival no longer happens, but not because the authorities shut it down, but because the organisers went broke due to lack of experience more than anything. similar, smaller events cropped up around the country before the gathering died.

my friend just told me of another event in nz called alpine unity (http://www.alpineunity.com) much like the gathering which is still alive and growing. here's an image:

Image

this is just some of the events that happen in australia and new zealand. i have no idea what goes on in the uk and the rest of europe, in canada, parts of asia (india, thailand - dude where did GOA TRANCE come from??) and other nations where people are not beaten down and oppressed like so many americans seem to think.
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Postby s5 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:38 pm

not to mention, other western countries don't have to worry about the "RAVE act", nor do they have to worry about a single overdose shutting down an event, because other countries tolerate pill testing and other harm reduction methods, or have moved towards decriminalization. few countries other than america seem to be as rabid about policing people's lifestyles (including the lifestyles of people who don't care about drugs) for the sake of "the war on drugs". for a "free country", it's really fucking hard to do whatever you want. burning man is lucky that it still happens.
Last edited by s5 on Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby TestesInSac » Tue Sep 09, 2003 2:55 pm

s5 wrote:
casnimot wrote:Ok, let me put the question in a form even a hippie could appreciate: Would B.man be tolerated in California? Would safety, public health, etc. regulations on the books in CA preclude such an event here? Would the social engineering in CA further geld any BM type event attempted here?


a better question - would burning man be tolerated in any other state other than nevada?


There's tonnes of desert in southern California. The main reason the event can't be held in CA is that there are too many enviro-whacko, Cal-EPA and Cal-OSHA regs that would prohibit it.

s5 wrote:i would love to see burning man try to go off in texas, virginia, florida, arizona, etc etc. and not to mention all the other states in the US that are either forest (like oregon and washington), densely packed urban jungle (like all of the northeast), or difficult for travel (like alaska).


Austin, TX hosts Burning Flipside, if memory serves, Synorgy happens in Utah (!), etc, etc. To do that in CA, you pretty much have to go underground or on private property, and in any case you have to dodge the NIMBYs, enviro-wackos, etc, as well as LEOs.

s5 wrote:it's pretty amazing that bmorg found *somewhere* in the radical christian, drug war obsessed united states that would allow such an event.


The "War on Drugs" is expensive stupidity, and more folks in the US are catching on to that. There's also ever fewer of the radical X-tians, and ever more radical-hippie-enviro-whacko-law-writing fuckwits to replace 'em.
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Re: Woah...

Postby TestesInSac » Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:06 pm

kyla wrote:
casnimot wrote:Ya know, I do get sick of the left-wing fuckwit foreigners that bash the US, but *have* to come to the US to enjoy Burning Man, because their own People's Republik of ____ won't allow such an event on their own soil.
Maybe they should stay the fuck home and set themselves free first...


This doesn't exactly make us foreigners feel welcome! I thought Burning Man was a place where nationality, race, religion, culture didn't matter. I thought we came together collectively as like minded people, willing to appreciate and celebrate each other and what has been created over the years as a place of freedom for all. This thread has surprised and disappointed me.


Not meaning to make you feel unwelcome, rather, I'm hoping to wake some of you up to your own hypocrisy. You bitch about US oppression/commercialism/expansionism/whatever, but most nations on this ball won't allow anything like Burning Man. In fact, I'd wager that there's relatively few nations where it's even safe to try. You can certainly rule out Africa, most of Asia, the entirety of the Mid-east, etc.

It's fashionable in CA and around the world to bash the US, but hardly productive.
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Re: Woah...

Postby s5 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:13 pm

casnimot wrote:It's fashionable in CA and around the world to bash the US, but hardly productive.


ah, a talk radio head. i should have known. ;)

"bashing" the US is what's commonly known as criticism, which in a free society, is specifically encouraged to guarantee your continued freedom. foreigners "bash" the US because us loud mouthed americans are always shoving how free we are down their throats, until they move here or visit, and are shocked at what goes on here, and how much more freedom they had back at home.
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Postby s5 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:21 pm

casnimot wrote:There's tonnes of desert in southern California.


... most of which is BLM land, national park, or privately owned.

Austin, TX hosts Burning Flipside, if memory serves, Synorgy happens in Utah (!), etc, etc. To do that in CA, you pretty much have to go underground or on private property, and in any case you have to dodge the NIMBYs, enviro-wackos, etc, as well as LEOs.


both of the events you named are burning man offshoots. and austin is only technically in texas. but i'll give you two points anyway.

southern california hosts moontribe and coachella, both regular festivals, both in california.

The "War on Drugs" is expensive stupidity, and more folks in the US are catching on to that. There's also ever fewer of the radical X-tians, and ever more radical-hippie-enviro-whacko-law-writing fuckwits to replace 'em.


when their side stops assaulting the environment, our side will stop writing laws. when their side allows universal health care, our side will stop suing for injuries. cause and effect, it's funny like that. :)
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Postby clandyone » Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:24 pm

I would have flown an American flag at Burning Man, if I owned one.

I find the current political debacle has made me more patriotic, not less... I love this fucking country and believe wholeheartedly that it must be saved from the excesses of the current regime.

That, and I know it'd chap Ashcroft's ass to see the flag flying over such cheery debauchery.
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Re: Woah...

Postby TestesInSac » Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:31 pm

s5 wrote:
casnimot wrote:It's fashionable in CA and around the world to bash the US, but hardly productive.


ah, a talk radio head. i should have known. ;)

"bashing" the US is what's commonly known as criticism, which in a free society, is specifically encouraged to guarantee your continued freedom. foreigners "bash" the US because us loud mouthed americans are always shoving how free we are down their throats, until they move here or visit, and are shocked at what goes on here, and how much more freedom they had back at home.


You're obviously new here, and I've been accused of "Limbaugh" type arguments before. (But then, so has Stu, of all people.) You wanna open up that level of pejorative with me, fine. For the record, I don't listen to radio, watch TV or even have the Sacto Bee delivered. I read, and I read a lot.

Criticizing US policies or initiatives or efforts is worthwhile, and I do it myself. I happen to be opposed to intervention in Iraq, opposed to the idiotic "War on Drugs", opposed to gun control and opposed to any government interference in womens reproductive options.

But the drivel you and others like you engage in lacks one specific component of rational criticism, that being a rational alternative. When all you do is whine about the horrors perpetrated by the 'rabid' (your word, fuckwit) USA, you're bashing.
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Re: Woah...

Postby kyla » Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:47 pm

Not meaning to make you feel unwelcome, rather, I'm hoping to wake some of you up to your own hypocrisy. You bitch about US oppression/commercialism/expansionism/whatever, but most nations on this ball won't allow anything like Burning Man. In fact, I'd wager that there's relatively few nations where it's even safe to try. You can certainly rule out Africa, most of Asia, the entirety of the Mid-east, etc.
It's fashionable in CA and around the world to bash the US, but hardly productive.


I don't know why you've included such a broad range of people who you consider to 'bash' the USA. I think every human on the planet knows what's wrong with the USA right now, including people who live there.

I come to the USA because I love people here, because it's a beautiful country, and I come for Burning Man because I thought it bridged massive boundries and knocked down walls. I don't think I'm a hypocrite coming here to partake in something incredible.. I would go no matter where in the world it was.

As for where in the world I come from, we too have festivals and gatherings similar to Burning Man, see Olivia's post above.

I don't know why this has to be a discussion about America.. frankly I don't think Burning Man is your typical American experience.
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Re: Woah...

Postby PJ » Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:55 pm

s5 wrote:...foreigners "bash" the US...until they move here or visit, and are shocked at what goes on here, and how much more freedom they had back at home.


That hasn't been my experience. I've lived/worked in every non-Soviet-bloc country with any high-tech industry to speak of; the only one that came close to having American-style freedoms was Hong Kong, and that was too crowded. It's not like I've met everybody but I don't personally know any immigrants that subsequently left the U.S.; the list includes some life-long manual laborers and some wildly-successful entrepreneurs, all of whom think it ain't perfect in their adopted country but it's a million times better than it was in the place they left, be it western Europe, Latin America, Iran, Russia, you name it.
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Postby PJ » Tue Sep 09, 2003 3:56 pm

electrolux wrote:I don't care where the fuck you're from, as long as you have something interesting to say.


Bravo! (A bit too long for a tattoo though.)
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Re: Woah...

Postby s5 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:15 pm

casnimot wrote:You're obviously new here, and I've been accused of "Limbaugh" type arguments before. (But then, so has Stu, of all people.) You wanna open up that level of pejorative with me, fine. For the record, I don't listen to radio, watch TV or even have the Sacto Bee delivered. I read, and I read a lot.


looks like i touched a nerve!

come on, i even used a ;)

But the drivel you and others like you engage in lacks one specific component of rational criticism, that being a rational alternative. When all you do is whine about the horrors perpetrated by the 'rabid' (your word, fuckwit) USA, you're bashing.


yet you've done exactly what you've accused others of doing.

you've told people to go back to their "people's republik of ____" yet, clearly, anyone from any foreign country with the freedom to travel to the US, and thus the freedom to attend burning man, has freedom in their own country, and is, most likely, not from china or iran. chances are, you wouldn't have heard a breath of criticism from anyone, until the flag-wavers opened their collective mouth with nonsense about how america (minus california) is supposedly more free than anywhere else in the world. it is simply not true. it is completely rational to point out that other countries with *more* environmental regulations, more socialistic policies, different drug policies, and less political attachment to radical christians, are able to host events on the same scale as burning man.

on top of it, you accuse me of "whining", yet you were the first to "whine" about "hippy-enviro-leftist-freaks" or whatever you said (i can't be bothered to find the exact string of hyphenated nastiness), without considering a "rational alternative". you "whine" about california regulations, and blame it on "the left" (a tired piece of rhetoric), without considering the challenges that burning man would have to face in not-so-left states elsewhere in the country. nor do you acknowledge why those regulations exist and what would have to change on the political landscape for them to change.

furthermore, i don't consider it "bashing" to point out misguided policies (such as the RAVE act) that make counter-culture events difficult in the US, especially in the context of self-congratulatory posts about how *nowhere* else is as free as america - which is not true, by any objective measure. a simple web search (or hell, even go back a page and look at the post linking to several events similar to burning man that take place in australia and new zealand) will show you that it's actually quite possible that burning man could happen somewhere else. other countries are, in fact, more free than america, in the context of allowing something like burning man to take place on their soil. (and yes, i do think america's enforcement of drug laws is "rabid". i'll stand behind my use of that word.)

but for some reason, i'm "bashing" or "whining", while you're "criticizing". i really don't see the difference in this thread, sorry. it's intellectually lazy to dismiss the validity of your opponent's opinion simply because you disagree.
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Re: Woah...

Postby PJ » Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:40 pm

s5 wrote:...anyone from any foreign country with the freedom to travel to the US, and thus the freedom to attend burning man, has freedom in their own country...


A country that prohibits economic freedom for its citizenry is not a country that's fully free, and the majority of western nations restrain their citizens pretty severely. Attempting to start, say, an independent trucking company in the UK or France would hammer that home quickly.
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Re: Woah...

Postby s5 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:16 pm

PJ wrote:A country that prohibits economic freedom for its citizenry is not a country that's fully free, and the majority of western nations restrain their citizens pretty severely. Attempting to start, say, an independent trucking company in the UK or France would hammer that home quickly.


true enough, though, other countries have free enterprise too, and you could make arguments that free enterprise isn't completely "free" in the US either - just try to start a business that competes with any number of subsidized corporations or industries in america. protectionism can be just as restrictive as outright prohibition.

but that's besides the point. this thread is about the american flag, which, for some people, stands for all the things that make burning man possible (which are hardly unique to america), and for other people, stands for all the things that threaten burning man's existence (which are also hardly unique to america).

fwiw, i think both sides are right, and i don't care one way or another if someone flies a flag of any kind in their camp.
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Re: Woah...

Postby PJ » Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:19 pm

s5 wrote:...other countries have free enterprise too, and you could make arguments that free enterprise isn't completely "free" in the US either - just try to start a business that competes with any number of subsidized corporations or industries in america. protectionism can be just as restrictive as outright prohibition...


As the owner or part-owner of several small businesses I'd argue that enterprise is extremely NON-free in the US. One could spend all week doing nothing but complying with the government paperwork required of a one-person company. In the end you give up and pay the nusiance fines and fees when they investigate you and find you lacking something you've never heard of before.

Were it not for taxes I could pay my employees three times as much as they earn now. It's likely your employeer could too. Wouldn't that be a better use of those funds than the assorted ratholes they're going down now?

Nevertheless, it's better than trying to do business in most of Asia, or all of Latin America, or Europe.
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Re: Woah...

Postby PJ » Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:21 pm

s5 wrote:...but that's besides the point. this thread is about the american flag...


It's called "thread drift", and the longer you're here the more you'll start to believe that it's the best thing about the E-Playa. Drift contains much of the wisdom, many of the brilliant insights you'll wish you'd thought of, and most of the good humor.
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Postby StinkBug61 » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:51 pm

Peace_Tolero wrote:
> are there any socialist states that would tolerate something like B.Man?


Yes! Lovely country this is, this America, no?

To wait for the fantasy that it *is* our personal dream.... well, take a number. You may be more fortunate than I as I wait for Immigration to fulfill what they said they would do.... 12... 16??? months ago. I'm a lucky one, I know. I just have to wait one more year as Immigration works out their internal bugs. :-(

Move over and may I share some tomatoes from my garden with you?
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Postby Kinetic » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:09 pm

Not to be simplistic but I happen to like the American Flag, it's a very nice design, and I love red, white, and blue. It represents many things to many people but to me it represents home. I grew up with it, my family taught me to respect it, and I will never have a problem raising it anywhere my feet happen to take me.

Let the arguments rage, thanks to that flag and the people who fought for it in WW1 and WW2, you are able to have your arguments.

Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it.......


Proudly waving my true American Flag...although the ad busters version is cool too.....
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Yo Casminot!

Postby Chimp » Wed Sep 10, 2003 8:50 am

HI CASMINOT

How totally unfriendly you are about "Leftie foreigners", wow - I had no idea I had put the cat amongst the pigeons so much with that post - I am not affiliated with 'The Left', whatever the hell you mean by that - I am allowed an opinion and I think if you 'READ' so much mister you may actually realise that my post did not 'bash America' so much as the unelected gang of oil tycoons who have taken over at the heart of it - Jesus, a flag is a piece of fabric - surely peope can love their country without loving a piece of fabric. Your attiude smacks in many ways of isolationism. I like the US, I love the PEOPLE I know there - I LOVE BURNING MAN, L Harvey described to me in an interview how US led consumer culture was the "Last monstrous flower of the capitalist west" - I guess he must be a leftie too huh? My article in this September's Dazed & Confused reads ' Burning man is a reminder in times of uninspired war rhetoric that America is the birthplace of radical free expression' - Individual liberty counts man - I have the right to travel to America and be critical of elements of it, you have the right to come here and do the same - That is what freedom means or had you forgotten that?

Love

Jp
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Postby Chimp » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:23 am

Liverace wrote

JP, I am delighted to learn of your misplaced antipathy for America. I trust that your delusions will preclude you from ever trying to set foot in my country again. If not, we can have Mr. Ashcroft arrange a full cavity search at your port of entry.

Cheerio!


1. I don't have any anipathy 'towards' America - read it again
2. You can come here and find fault with our government - 'WE ARE FREE
IN OUR SOCIETIES TO DO THIS'
3. 'MY' Country? Lord of all you survey dude?

Ah to hell with it - No offense was meant, it is just an opinion - Half the planet have issues with 'Your' goverment but that is precisely it - I don't neccersarily see American people as representative of their goverment - I see them as PEOPLE, I try to see everyone as people - people free from the bounds of political dogma, patriotism etc - period.

"MADE to raise the flag, I ain't no fortunate son."

Creedence Clearwater Revival

Love

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Put your left foot in, take your left foot out...

Postby Liverace » Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:50 am

Hmmm, JP / Chimp makes more outrageous claims!

Let's take stock:

1. Desperate, transparent disavowals,

JP / Chimp wrote:I am not affiliated with 'The Left'


"I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky," right?

2. BIG LIE style repetition of hollow leftist rhetoric,

JP / Chimp wrote:my post did not 'bash America' so much as the unelected gang of oil tycoons who have taken over at the heart of it


3. Contributor to a periodical whose very title celebrates the Zenith of hippie culture,

JP / Chimp wrote:My article in this September's Dazed & Confused...


Q.E.D.

Sorry, ol' chap. You are Lefty McLeftist. El gran izquierdisto. A true People's Republikan. Not that there's anything wrong with it, just don't insult our intelligence by denying it. "What you do, do boldly, or don't do at all." Oh, and don't join the chorus claiming "journalistic integrity" when your bias is so prominently pinned to your sleeve.

As for Larry, God love him, the quote you selected says it all,

JP / Chimp wrote:L Harvey described to me in an interview how US led consumer culture was the "Last monstrous flower of the capitalist west" - I guess he must be a leftie too huh?


But Larry would never disclaim the label.

I wholeheartedly second your appreciation of individual liberty, but you certainly have no "right" to travel to America. That privilege, like my privilege to travel to the UK, is granted at the whim of the local citizenry and as you choose to come here and criticiZe, your privilege has now been revoked. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.
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Postby Chimp » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:26 pm

That was great Liverace - actually made me laugh out loud which was really nice

let me get this straight though - you have no criticsm of your goverment then and anyone who does shouldn't be allowed to come there?

is that what you are saying - or perhaps you are saying you can't make any negative critical analysis of the US administration unless you live there? Or what is this 'label' are you referring to 'The Flag' again?


seems to me that whether or not I am left (hands up, I couldn't really argue with your excellent deconstruction of my post) you are extremely thin skinned. the stuff I mentioned in that original post by the way is all FACT is it not?

PS: I will go wherever I please and if I make it back to the playa as I intend to I am gonna give you one great big sloppy trotskyist kiss and a lollipop with a picture of Marx on it - I bet you are looking forward to that ain't ya!!
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Chimp
 
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Postby TestesInSac » Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:53 pm

JP / Chimp wrote:...I am gonna give you ... a lollipop with a picture of Marx on it...


Gimme my fucking gift.
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