Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby DrewDubious » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:04 pm

jenn nelson wrote: radically self-entitled fuck, aren't you?




Seems like that is one of the two choices. The other being radically self-righteous!



ahh fuck... I wasn't supposed to say anything here :twisted:
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby jkisha » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:11 pm

jenn nelson wrote:Wow, BBadger, you really are a radically self-entitled fuck, aren't you?

Obviously, everyone is TOTALLY JEALOUS of your bitchin' 40 foot RV and your indentured servants. "Why can't all you little, insignificant people let us rich pretty people do whatever we want? We're so FABULOUS, we make everything we touch better! YOU'RE JUST JEALOUS BECAUSE WE HAVE MORE THAN YOU!!!!"


I don't see anything wrong with that.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby jkisha » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:15 pm

WOW Jenn. This is extremely easy for you to fix all by your little bitty self. If this is the way you feel, simply do not go! Problem solved.

jenn nelson wrote:You know, a year later and this still irks me. I just watched some video where a bunch of p'n'p folks sit around with the BMorg managers and justify their existence, and it made my skin crawl the whole damn time. A caterer was talking about how she has a hard time getting people to pick up their plates, and her partner bemoaned the fact that he can't get his "clients" to refill a steel water bottle instead of grabbing a plastic one.

Here's the deal guys: your "clients" don't GET it. And thanks to you capitalizing on everyone else's event like it's fucking Disneyland, they don't have to- and they never, ever will. Until they have to drive home with their trash, figure out how to keep food fresh for a week, cook without making a mess, be uncomfortable and rely on themselves instead of their money FOR ONCE IN THEIR GODDAMNED LIVES all the cathartic, transformational things that you are selling to these bastards is never, ever going to happen. Meanwhile, the rest of us are fucking background performers in your merry little parade. I don't WANT to be a themed character in your fucking parade. I'm not here to entertain your "clients." But that's part of what you assholes are selling: ME. And my family, and my friends, and EVERYONE ELSE because you've packaged us and SOLD us to you pathetic "clients" as part of the "experience." So now, at the event that has been a part of my family's life for 15 years, I'm the fucking "help" whose job is to amuse your "clients."

And the BMorg talking about how to support this shit so it isn't a drain on services? Fuck it. DON'T. No vendor passes, no deliveries before gate unless you're a PARTICIPANT with early arrival, no RV dumps, no water service. You're a vendor trying to beat exodus? Fuck you. Wait in line, you fucking parasite.

The WORST WORST WORST part of this conversation is them talking about their giant ass art cars and world class DJ's and TEDx like they're doing the rest of us some sort of fucking favor by doling out the scraps to the rest of us pleebs who can't afford the big toys.

Fuck you. If you can't play by the rules, take your toys and go home. I don't need your plastic Barbie dreamhouse, I'm totally content with these rocks, a stick, and this fire- because I make my happy, I don't try to fucking BUY it. Maybe you should try it sometime.

OH- one final note. If you're a catering company acting like the fucking park plaza of burning man to make a living? Fuck you. How DARE you call yourself a burner and talk about everything you've learned from Burning Man- you haven't learned a goddamned thing.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby lucky420 » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:19 pm

Hey!

Jenn is entitled to her opinion and entitled to rant about it just as everybody else here on Eplaya.

To tell someone to simply not go is, well umm dammit umm..AAARGH words are so hard sometimes
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby lemur » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:21 pm

OH GREAK JKISHA

suggesting jenn not go makes the problem WORSE.


....because the burden of the plug n plays will be shared by fewer people!!

you should be encouraging more people to go!
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby mulch » Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:31 pm

What an interesting discussion....

Being a newcomer, I really don't have any BM currency to spend on this or first hand insight yet, but I just think the two points of view (bbadger and Jen's) really represent a common theme in the world in general. I don't know of course, but badger sounds libertarian and jen sound like an occupy type person.

For me, if I suddenly couldn't go, I would still have had a blast the past several months planning and creating. Building my art vehicle, renovating an old RV specifically for festivals like this (this will be the first trip), working on costumes, and my crazy project that I've spent a zillion hours on have all been rewarding to me.

That said, skydiving into Black Rock city to find a catered setup with a butler and a Prevost RV filled with hookers and champagne would be pretty nice too.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby jkisha » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:09 pm

Why? I'm just trying to reduce the stress she seems to have in her life due to this issue. If there was anything about BM or anything else for that matter, that would cause me to be so upset, or dislike as much as she seems to, I wouldn't go myself. No matter what she says, it ain't going to change.

It's just good advice.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby jkisha » Mon Aug 05, 2013 3:11 pm

lemur wrote:OH GREAK JKISHA

suggesting jenn not go makes the problem WORSE.


....because the burden of the plug n plays will be shared by fewer people!!

you should be encouraging more people to go!

LOL Nothing I could say would dissuade that one from going. Hey, she wouldn't have anything to bitch about then.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby GreyCoyote » Mon Aug 05, 2013 8:09 pm

mulch wrote:What an interesting discussion....

That said, skydiving into Black Rock city to find a catered setup with a butler and a Prevost RV filled with hookers and champagne would be pretty nice too.


Two words 'Ol Friend: "Ger-onimo!" :mrgreen:

Of course, that means we're doing it wrong...

BTW: Any redheads in that RV? Just want to make sure I have a comfy place to land!
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby jkisha » Mon Aug 05, 2013 9:03 pm

GreyCoyote wrote:
mulch wrote:What an interesting discussion....

That said, skydiving into Black Rock city to find a catered setup with a butler and a Prevost RV filled with hookers and champagne would be pretty nice too.


Two words 'Ol Friend: "Ger-onimo!" :mrgreen:

Of course, that means we're doing it wrong...

BTW: Any redheads in that RV? Just want to make sure I have a comfy place to land!


YES! Let's hear it for doing it wrong! (and could we have a couple of hot male hookers in that RV please?)
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby gaminwench » Tue Aug 06, 2013 12:14 am

The camp(s) I pFluff for are placed next to a well-known turnkey, PnP camp.
Turnkey cuz you pays your money and you gets it all.
PnP cuz it's theme-Y and inter-active all the way (turnkey folk, optional).

I have been 'designated' covert, undercover(nekkid), info-seeking, info-sharing, edumacating infiltrator.

WHEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby ygmir » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:08 am

what a great thread.
wonderful discussion, really. I applaud all posters here. it's well rounded, and really illustrates the "schisms" that's develop in large groups of humans.

Knowing there is no "right or wrong" way to Burn, it's moot, but very informative, IMHO.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby Simon of the Playa » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:15 am

social engineering, experimental division, at your service...
breathe deep, the playa is the dust of your ancestors

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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby Lonesomebri » Tue Aug 06, 2013 8:25 am

I always am amused to read someone complain about a complainer, so unaware of their own complaining stance.

Don't like jen, don't comment, just don't go.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby BurnerBunny » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:07 am

at first I was unsure, but now that there is mention of hot male hookers and champaign where do I sign up?
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby DrewDubious » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:26 am

Lonesomebri wrote:I always am amused to read someone complain about a complainer, so unaware of their own complaining stance.





Guys, hey guys! is this ironic? :wink:
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby DrYes » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:04 pm

jenn nelson wrote:Fuck you. If you can't play by the rules, take your toys and go home. I don't need your plastic Barbie dreamhouse, I'm totally content with these rocks, a stick, and this fire- because I make my happy, I don't try to fucking BUY it. Maybe you should try it sometime.


Oh? You make your own bicycle from metals you mined yourself using tools you built yourself?

Did you grow all the food you brought to BM?

How about that tent? I bet you bought it.

How'd you make it to BM? Did you walk? Otherwise, I bet you bought something to get there (vehicle, gas, car rental, rideshare, flight, etc).

Oh, and those porta-potties out there? I guess you must build your own? They're purchased.

That canvas that shelters center camp? Purchased.

That ice that people enjoy at BM? Purchased.

Get over yourself.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby lucky420 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:12 pm

umm yeah jenn probably doesnt mine her own metals for her bike, etc.

But she sounds a hell of a lot more self sufficient than somebody who pays somebody else to plop down an rv, cook her food and take her trash away than those that choose the plug and play way

but to each their own. dont tell me how to burn. you're doing it wrong. namaste. jeebus loves you :D
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby ygmir » Tue Aug 06, 2013 2:21 pm

[media]
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby DrYes » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:07 pm

lucky420 wrote:umm yeah jenn probably doesnt mine her own metals for her bike, etc.

But she sounds a hell of a lot more self sufficient than somebody who pays somebody else to plop down an rv, cook her food and take her trash away than those that choose the plug and play way


Unless you're the single most radically self-sufficient person on the playa out of the 50k+ folks out there, there's always someone more self-sufficient than you. BM is not exactly an event that promotes any kind of "radical" self-sufficiency despite the hype. Almost everyone that goes buys almost everything that they show up in and with, and -everybody- there (except maybe folks who use their RV bathrooms!) uses the purchased Port-a-potties. Many people purchase totally unnecessary luxuries while there like ice, coffee, and lemonade. I sometimes do. Nothing like an ice-cold tasty lemonade mid-day. I don't feel that I'm ruining Burning Man for anyone by doing so.


but to each their own. dont tell me how to burn.


Exactly. I don't care if you sleep in an RV, in a yurt, in a tent, or on the ground with a tarp covering you. The guy sleeping with just a tarp isn't a 'better' Burner than folks who are luxuriating in a tent or a yurt with a swamp cooler, or a plug and play RV - he's just less comfortable (and either kind of a bad-ass or crazy). One thing you can say about him is he's creating less of an environmental impact than someone in an RV or a yurt or even a tent, but Burning Man is very clearly not an event concerned with environmental impact beyond that which might cause the BLM to refuse it a permit.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby alt12 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:08 pm

This such an easy problem to solve. Ban RVs bigger than say 25 feet or so and ban all vendors (including turnkey camp operators). Period. End of story. This would rewind burning man several years. Net benefit for all. Would make "Radical Self Reliance" not such a laughing stock of a fake principle.

Of course, this would be the opposite of the current official BMORG bend-over-backwards policy to make vendor-based camps as easy as possible.

Only reason this will never happen is because the org is obsessed with growing the franchise and afraid of a potential financial hit if one year there suddenly weren't enough people to cover the costs of the greatly-built-out infrastructure that now constitutes the event footprint. One could certainly make the argument that they sold the event's soul with all the back-bending to accommodate vendors, turnkey camps, etc.

This ain't gonna happen so we just have to live with the new realities of BM as they are.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby Eric » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:20 pm

alt12 wrote:This such an easy problem to solve. Ban RVs bigger than say 25 feet or so and ban all vendors (including turnkey camp operators). Period. End of story. This would rewind burning man several years.


Um... the guys who clean the porta-potties, without which the event would be closed? Vendors. The people who bring the ice in so you can fill your coolers? Vendors. The trucks that water the roads down in a vain attempt to alleviate some of the dust? Vendors. The medical supplies in case you get dehydrated or have a serious injury? Supplied by vendors. The heavy equipment that builds those tall cool structures? Vendors. If you don't want vendors, you have 11 months of the year to enjoy the playa without them, because the event in any form is required to have a pile of them to meet basic sanitation & safety laws. You cannot turn back the clock on this event to the 90s no matter how much you dream of it. You can start a new one, but this horse has left that barn.

Net benefit for all.


No, net benefit for people who don't like others who Burn differently then themselves. "Period. End of story."
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby alt12 » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:49 pm

Eric wrote:
alt12 wrote:This such an easy problem to solve. Ban RVs bigger than say 25 feet or so and ban all vendors (including turnkey camp operators). Period. End of story. This would rewind burning man several years.


Um... the guys who clean the porta-potties, without which the event would be closed? Vendors. The people who bring the ice in so you can fill your coolers? Vendors. The trucks that water the roads down in a vain attempt to alleviate some of the dust? Vendors. The medical supplies in case you get dehydrated or have a serious injury? Supplied by vendors. The heavy equipment that builds those tall cool structures? Vendors. If you don't want vendors, you have 11 months of the year to enjoy the playa without them, because the event in any form is required to have a pile of them to meet basic sanitation & safety laws. You cannot turn back the clock on this event to the 90s no matter how much you dream of it. You can start a new one, but this horse has left that barn.

Net benefit for all.


No, net benefit for people who don't like others who Burn differently then themselves. "Period. End of story."



Thanks Devil's Advocate, I don't think I've had one post where you haven't jumped in and played the same tune. Is this your official capacity here? Yeah, obviously BMORG hired vendors and contractors would be exempt. I think that's pretty obvious and not necessary to elaborate on. The whole point is to address private parties turning burning man into a catered affair. Pretty self-explanatory.

And yes, guess what, everybody has a different idea about how things should be run at burning man. This is mine. I suppose only the moderators are allowed to make their points and the rest of us should just shut up? Clearly you don't like others who Burn differently than you either. Everyone can play that game so no need to be so self-righteous tolerantier-than-though for christ's sake.

How about if the way I like to Burn, as you so charmingly put it, involves raping children or selling schwag on the playa or putting up huge advertisements for Coca Cola? Obviously there are lines drawn that ban certain activities for a variety of reasons, legal, cultural, and otherwise. I simply think the event would be better if we added large RVs and plug-and-play vendors to that list of disallowed activities.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby Eric » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:03 pm

:roll:
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby CornMan » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:19 pm

According to all the debate in the past few weeks/months, it is the consensus that the majority of the people here are in favor of the Plug and Play industry and apparently agree that privileges such as the vendor passes to get to get their RVs and other infrastructure onto the festival grounds early is a good thing and not to be complained about or discussed any further.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby Eric » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:29 pm

^that was rude of me: clarification follows.
Your post said "ban all vendors (including turnkey camp operators). Period." While, to you, that may somehow seperate out essential services, when you say "ban all" and "including" to me that means... well, all of them, with emphasis on the turnkey. Not ban everything unessential, ban "all".

That "tune" I'm playing is known as "my opinion" - one that's shared with other posters in this same thread. A lot of people think the event is going to hell in a handbasket because of the turnkey camps, and if you've read my rants in the BRC Weekly, you'll see that in the past i was one of them. The event grows and changes, and we may not like some of the changes, but we don't control the event (hence the "this horse has left the barn" metaphor - the people who do control the event are already allowing turnkeys. It's a done decision.). Personally I see the fight turning into another variation of the endless "tent vs. RV" debate that was old when I first went in '03, just now we're separating the RVs into categories.

I don't see anywhere in my post where I told you that you couldn't have an opinion, unless you find my disagreeing with your "net benefit" part to be somehow shutting you down.

As for your last paragraph, that's where this guy comes in: :roll:

CornMan wrote:According to all the debate in the past few weeks/months, it is the consensus that the majority of the people here are in favor of the Plug and Play industry and apparently agree that privileges such as the vendor passes to get to get their RVs and other infrastructure onto the festival grounds early is a good thing and not to be complained about or discussed any further.


Personally, I don't have any control in allowing them or not since I'm not on the Board. People can rage against them all they want, but the people who own the event made their decision, and all we can do is work within it, or become a member of the Org and work to change it. Option "B" is a lot tougher than "A"
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby tummler » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:43 pm

BBadger wrote: "You're wrapped up in this lame Puritan view that redemption only comes from labor."

Such an excellent nugget of thought-provoking wisdom! This seriously slapped me right in the brainpan.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby jkisha » Tue Aug 06, 2013 5:58 pm

Except possibly the first Burning Man event, there never was, nor will there ever be, a year that pleases everybody. Get over it.
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby FIGJAM » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:20 pm

I don't care if it pleases everybody, as long as it pleases me! :twisted:
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Re: Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Postby gyre » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:21 pm

Every time I read this thread, I want turkey.

Can't figure out why.
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