Plug & Play/Turnkey Camping

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby cooked 2242 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:23 am

One of the things I learned at BM that is often hard in the default world is to not care what anyone else is thinking about you, or you of them. You're there to be yourself, to do your own thing, to give because you want to give. Participation is something you choose to do, not a chore or obligation; it certainly shouldn't be something you trade. If people in PnP camps are paying for their experience, so what? Not your problem.


I think that's good advice and pretty much the reality of what I have done.

So - I guess I'm just speaking up because they asked what we think - I think it's wrong.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Nipple » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:34 am

Once we fix this, can we deal with the Fratboy/Bullhorn epidemic?
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby moonrise » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:40 am

This plug & play "meeting" etc is starting to feel like a marketing ploy. Flying just under the radar now, aye?
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Bob » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:43 am

some seeing eye wrote:Bob, I'll "drink" the "C"oolaide (actually not really). It's plausible deniability chum. Since there is no definition of PnP, some will get ticket allocations this year. Gives more policy options in 2013, which will also be ticket scarce. But as i always say, "there's no reason to assume conspiracy when an explanation of mere incompetence will do". I'm a radical. I'd do away with MV's entirely, except for physically disabled people. So I don't think having your servants build them off playa so you can parade them outside your camp walls should be a pass for placement or tickets. Bread and circus. Ticket allocation based on allowing any stinky hippie into your camp to interact with you is exactly what we need.


The 1997 design was supposed to foster a walk-in scenario -- we bulldozed a ten-acre parking lot in the weeds along Route 34 to make it so. Ah, wilderness.

Still curious how seven organizers get 200 tickets.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:45 am

Darned good question.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Jackass » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:06 pm

Probably "gamed" the "system".
Sooner or later, it will get real strange...

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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby 5280MeV » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:07 pm

cooked 2242 wrote:
One of the things I learned at BM that is often hard in the default world is to not care what anyone else is thinking about you, or you of them. You're there to be yourself, to do your own thing, to give because you want to give. Participation is something you choose to do, not a chore or obligation; it certainly shouldn't be something you trade. If people in PnP camps are paying for their experience, so what? Not your problem.


I think that's good advice and pretty much the reality of what I have done.

So - I guess I'm just speaking up because they asked what we think - I think it's wrong.


I second all of this. I am also happy to share my warm box sangria and tin of smoked clams with them, and I would be happy to accept a spoonful of caviar and sip of champagne.

Just because I think that they have it all completely, disastrously wrong doesn't mean I am going to shun them, try to stop them, or interfere with their gardens of splendor. I have my private space and they have theirs. They can also ideally tell me that I have it completely, disastrously wrong and hopefully we can find it all funny. Ultimately this is supposed to be fun, and the vibe I get from both the real playa and eplaya is that you can and should say what you really think.

But yea, the LLC wants to know what everyone thinks, and what should they expect???

I mean, they ought to just read their own website.

It is a clever little loophole - the rules - not principles or values - but rules say no exchanging money on-playa. I guess the rules don't specifically say that you can't pre-pay for a whole batch of services to be fulfilled on-playa, so unless the LLC makes a rule that you can't do it, then you can do it.

My understanding is that in 2004 the LLC wrote down a set of ten principles, as an attempt to understand why TTITD was such a fun place, and make a template to help foster regional events trying to accomplish something similar. You have to do some serious mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that a professionally staffed VIP section is in line with such principles. Or, you can rethink the value set that you wrote down in 2004.

I think that VIP camping should be regarded like megaphones - often annoying - occasionally funny or interesting - something that one must learn to ignore.

If the LLC really wants to support or encourage this phenomenon in any way, then they must write down a new set of principles to avoid cognitive dissonance.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Gracetree » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:31 pm

Frankly, I believe that "plug and play" camps are in direct violation of at least two of the stated Burning Man Principles: Radical Self Reliance, and Decommodification. The first is patently obvious in its disregard of the principle, and as for the other, well, I thought the guiding sensibility was to bring Burning Man to the default world - hence making it a better place - rather than bringing the default world onto the playa. It doesn't matter when the money changes hands, before, during or after, when you have someone else providing a service that is specific to a particular clientel camp, that's commerce.
Further, I think that the proliferation of these camps will only increase an atmosphere of tourism, voyeurism, elitism, and in general encourage an attitude of entitlement, rather than participation and self reliance. If this is really a direction the powers that be are willing to go, why not place such spa camps outside the perimeter, on their own recognizance with the BLM etc. Yeah, yeah, obviously "placing" them there is semantically incorrect. How about "banish"? Commercialism should not be part of Burning Man.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby moonrise » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:39 pm

@BBadger I bring a camera so I can remember wtf I saw, then I usually forget to snap photos or the camera breaks (got a new one this year, schweet).


I once lived in a nice little town, mostly occupied by local residents, life was good. Then slowly but surely big big money bought it all up, the town is dead and all the locals left (bought out or driven out by lack of ANY housing, let alone affordable housing).
The "help" is now bussed in from over an hour away. Maybe they can bus the aritsts, performers, volunteers in? Thanks, but no thanks.

If only all boats rose with the tide. That didn't happen to the town I mentioned above. It was easier and faster to simply scuttle more than half of the boats :(
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby HeathenWorld » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:57 pm

sell outs are already causing a huge head ache for burning man. legitimizing plug and play camps will just make that worse.. give scalpers more business, and introduce a level of classism to the event. if i were volunteering to help setup the event, i would not be happy about spending my hard sweat setting up a camp for a for profit plug and play camp company. might as well setup a camp for mcdonalds and tell them please don't put yellow arches up.

in my mind radical inclusion is for those who are radical enough to want to go, radical enough to go through the sweat and hassle to prepare to go, and radical enough to add to the event on top of that.

plug and play camping might be just as hard to control as scalping.. neither is doing the event any good.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Pop_Tart » Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:59 pm

Can you spot the elitist tourist in this video from Play)a(Skool?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96JZB1WuolE

Looks like a theme camp to me...
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby ygmir » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:09 pm

Pop_Tart wrote:Can you spot the elitist tourist in this video from Play)a(Skool?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96JZB1WuolE

Looks like a theme camp to me...


I think I threw up in my mouth a little.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby BBadger » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:14 pm

moonrise wrote:@BBadger I bring a camera so I can remember wtf I saw, then I usually forget to snap photos or the camera breaks (got a new one this year, schweet).


I do that to some extent, but last year I realized that I mostly brought it to show other people who will never attend but wanted to see what I was excited about.

What really hit home with tourists and their photos was when I visited some place in Europe and there were these busloads of Koreans, and every one of them had these ultrafancy DSLRs that they'd haul out and photograph every special site on the way to places. It reminded me of a prior trip I went on and did practically the same thing, thinking they'd be awesome photos. I don't think I've ever looked at them since. It was why I didn't take quite so many photos that second trip. Still, most of the reason I took the photos was because I knew I wouldn't be back, and quite frankly, had no desire to go back. I saw what I wanted to saw, had proof of it and reminders of what I saw, and I'll never return except on business.

Pop_Tart wrote:Can you spot the elitist tourist in this video from Play)a(Skool?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96JZB1WuolE

Looks like a theme camp to me...


They look like 99% of the people I've run into on the playa, and the camp is pretty nondescript.

What's funny about this whole Playskool camp/video and all the outrage is just how much publicity it is giving this camp. I'll be more outraged if they're a MOOP factory, but that transcends PnP camps. Other than that, the camp is like every other camp I never paid any notice to--which is practically all of them. This is like being outraged about how people have sex in the privacy of their own homes.

On the video itself, look at how bored the people there look. They look like they're at every club I've had the misfortune of visiting. Bunch of people "dancing" in bored fashion, hanging out at the place because, well, it's a place to hang out. All it needs is a bar with $5 drinks. Watch as most of these people never return. What a great camp to not attract regulars.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:25 pm

BBadger wrote:I saw what I wanted to saw...

Spoken like a true lumberjack.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Pop_Tart » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:34 pm

How about this video?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfWRJF1K4ec

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Dr. Pyro » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:38 pm

What I don't understand is what did the BMOrg think they had to gain by making the video, and thus the entire topic, public? Had nobody said a thing I would think 99% of us would not have any idea about P&P camps and would have gone on our merry way (or find something else to bitch about). I did get an email from some poseur asking whether or not BDC&WB was a P&P camp because we "...are the lap of luxury by Burning Man standards..." Huh, seriously? We build our own shade, lay our own carpeting, tune our own piano, supply our own water, use our own electricity, cook our own food, clean up after ourselves (solid green on the 2011 MOOP Map), build our own mutant vehicles, supply our own wine, throw our own parties, and yes, we do take care of our own. Just like most every other burner on the playa does. If you want to hate us because occasionally we arrogantly believe we're a bit more flamboyant than your typical small camp, fine, hate away. Happily I know that is a minority opinion. So, who in the hell brought this entire subject up? Oh yeah, the BMOrg. Good call. Idiots.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby illy dilly » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:41 pm

Dr. Pyro wrote:What I don't understand is what did the BMOrg think they had to gain by making the video, and thus the entire topic, public? Had nobody said a thing I would think 99% of us would not have any idea about P&P camps and would have gone on our merry way (or find something else to bitch about). I did get an email from some poseur asking whether or not BDC&WB was a P&P camp because we "...are the lap of luxury by Burning Man standards..." Huh, seriously? We build our own shade, lay our own carpeting, tune our own piano, supply our own water, use our own electricity, cook our own food, clean up after ourselves (solid green on the 2011 MOOP Map), build our own mutant vehicles, supply our own wine, throw our own parties, and yes, we do take care of our own. Just like most every other burner on the playa does. If you want to hate us because occasionally we arrogantly believe we're a bit more flamboyant than your typical small camp, fine, hate away. Happily I know that is a minority opinion. So, who in the hell brought this entire subject up? Oh yeah, the BMOrg. Good call. Idiots.

Someone...(we all know who)...
Who is trying to distract from the ticket nonsense.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:42 pm

Pop_Tart wrote:Can you spot the elitist tourist in this video from Play)a(Skool?

Not sure in what spirit this was posted (sarcastic? outraged? amused? you really thought they were all elite tourists, or none of them, or you are making the point that we can't actually judge people by their appearance?), so apologies if I'm missing the point here.... but I was quite taken aback by that giant feathered headdress. Of course, that person could be a really earnest, well-meaning virgin who spent so much time collecting seagull feathers off the streets, washing them, and carefully sewing them together, that he never got around to reading the "no feathers" section of the survival manual...


BBadger wrote: ...look at how bored the people there look. They look like they're at every club I've had the misfortune of visiting. Bunch of people "dancing" in bored fashion, hanging out at the place because, well, it's a place to hang out.

THIS.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby BBadger » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:53 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
BBadger wrote:I saw what I wanted to saw...

Spoken like a true lumberjack.


Haha, damn, I didn't even notice that!

lumberjack.jpg
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Pop_Tart » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:01 pm

illy dilly wrote:Someone...(we all know who)...
Who is trying to distract from the ticket nonsense.


Which is really ironic, because the P&P camps are probably just as screwed as the rest of the theme camps. Who knows how many tourist virgins won tickets in the lottery, or how many of the organizers of the P&P camps won tickets.

Unless... here's a shady thought... What if all the P&P camps are going to buy the super expensive Vendor Tickets to facilitate their ultra high class people... You know, those tickets that are designed for service providers that do daily trips in and out of BM... I know they exist, but all reference to them seems to have been pulled from the main BM page...

@catinthefunnyhat - That was posted in the spirit of sarcastic humor. :-) Feel free to draw your own conclusions...
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby ygmir » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:01 pm

BBadger wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
BBadger wrote:I saw what I wanted to saw...

Spoken like a true lumberjack.


Haha, damn, I didn't even notice that!

lumberjack.jpg

and you're O.K.!!
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby catinthefunnyhat » Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:10 pm

Pop_Tart wrote:That was posted in the spirit of sarcastic humor. :-) Feel free to draw your own conclusions...


All right; I am going to choose to believe the story I made up. I am at once empathizing with and shaking my head at this imaginary person.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby pink » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:41 pm

Feathered dancer on the tower. Again, didn't read the instructions, and apparently no one at skool thought enough to educate her.

Aside from infrastructure, I had no idea you could pay for vendor deliveries. I thought I read something in the survival guide about "make sure you have enough food, water, and supplies to survive a week in a harsh desert environment". But maybe I misread?

*please read snark into the last sentence*
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Trishntek » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:01 pm

Well fuck it! I'm just gonna offer my pony rides for a nominal fee,,, maybe,,, just maybe I'll break even! But shhhhhh don't tell anybody,,,, as long as nobody knows it'll be okay.

Just PM me for a reservation and I'll let you know where to send the $$
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby gyre » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:13 pm

Just contact the appropriate parties ahead of time to make arrangements to provide your 'Man in a Can' experience.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Sir.Kit.Ree/ » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:20 pm

Just another guys opinion, but, the allowance of PnP's will propagate a cancun/punta cana like atmosphere, in my opinion. Pay one fee for an all inclusive stay at the beach ("playa"), and your free to party, get laid, get messed up, and see some great performances. I think that the burden of havin to provide your own means of living in the desert for a week is a perfect deterrent to those that are simply looking for a good time. And as far as radical inclusion goes, I believe that self reliance trumps it. My wife and I have had to bail on two years worth of tickets, because we didn't have the resources to provide for ourselves. And yet, I am STILL, saving, and scrimping, and preparing for this years burn. I dont even have tickets yet, (come on scholarahip! two BM tickets at normal price would feed us for a year or better...) Burning isnt supposed to be easy, the Missouri burn subjects you to tornados, 70 MPH winds, torrential downs pours, hail, 8 inch deep mud, and now you got to start a fire to cook with...

Furthermore, once you introduce outsider profit into ANY kind of system, corruption follows immediately. I am with all the other when I say that PnPs KILL burner culture. Here's a scenario: With PnP participants breaking so many ideals, it wont be long before photography occurs with out BM participant permission. Soon, you'll have to think twice about that costume, stunt, character, display, etc. that you were planning on, and wether its realy worth the high likelyhood it will end up on the internet. It kind of puts a sort of self imposed censorship on the event.

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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby pink » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:03 pm

I wonder how many of the people in the videos were asked if their likenesses could be posted on the Internet?
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby Headmaster Janus » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:07 pm

Question: Are we hosting a Plug & Play camp?

For our 2012 Erection (BaalMart), MalMart needs approx $20K-$25K to rent scaffolding, speakers, projectors, lights, & moving trucks. These funds will also be used to fabricate geodesic domes, fabric wall panels, comfy couches, and sturdy ramps. Currently we have 22 total Core Mal-Mart members with tickets (7 lottery, 15 from BMOrg & Placement [THANK YOU!!!]). We 22 core members are artists, school teachers, engineers, stage designers, computer programers, DJs, etc, etc, etc. We are not trust fund babies or indepently wealthy. We have our 9-5's, and our 2 weeks of vacation per year, and we all live our 51 weeks per year looking forward to our 1 week in the desert.

That said, we 22 cant afford $1K+ each. We have to bring in non-core people to assist via camp dues and fundraisers. We are looking to charge $150-$200 in dues per person and seeking to get a total camp size of 100-149. In exchange for camp dues, people get a communal kitchen they can use to cook their own food, a patch of prime real estate to put up their tent, and a huge grey water evap pool. They also get the opportunity to participate daily with the Baal-Mart structure, events, and activities. In my eyes, we are a group of anarchistic burners bringing in other ticketed burners, virgins and otherwise, to help offset the costs of our crazy structure. The only 4 things we ask our non-core members is to bring a couple of handles of vodka to donate to the bar, to keep the kitchen clean, to perform daily Moop patrols of the camp, and to help with the breakdown of the structure. They still have to bring all of their own tents, food, water, costumes, bikes, RVs, etc. In 2010, we charged people extra to get a room in the structure. That felt kind of wrong, as it made us more of a commercial hotel type experience. This year we will be setting up some communal crash lounges in the structure where anyone can pass out for a spell.

We are also planning to offset our costs further with other fundraising events such as concerts (http://www.facebook.com/#!/events/272347569505115/), themed swag for sale (bandanas and Mal-Mart Vests), dinner parties, a casino night, and every other conceivable way to bring in $$$. Even with all of these cash raising events, we expect that several of us 'most-core' members will have to shell out a few grand of personal cash to make the BM week happen. No profit will be made from dues. The very thought of people profiting from BM adventures makes my skin crawl.

So in that broad spectrum, what are we? Plug & Play? Pay To Play? Theme Camp? Where do you draw the line? I have no shame in roping in others to help pay for this awesome structure and, from my own experience, I know that they will go from virgin spectactor to 100% participant in less than a day. We are awesome like that. No virgin orientation classes required.
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby lemur » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:14 pm

i dont really buy this line of thought that says 'could you spot the p&p camper?' ...whether or not we can see them their effect on the culture still occurs.

Image

spot the terrorist!!!

(third from the right, Theodore Kaczynski)


....the problem isnt whether or not we can pick one of these camps or its campers out from a lineup, it is the way it can change the event for all participants.

the more encouragement these operations get the more the everyone elses efforts become devalued (see: valued for profit) because not everyone will be on the same page in terms of offering themselves and their efforts for the same reason.. one group shows up for monetary gain and the rest show up because of honest interest... at some point the ones not showing up for monetary gain wont feel like others share their values and either stop making work, or stop coming... or even worse, theyll start doing the 'if i cant beat em, i'll join em' and soon enough theyll be looking toward the event for monetary gain as well.

whether or not you can still do your own thing and forget, or pretend, like these operations dont exist in 2012, or maybe even 2013... further encouragement of these operations into the future will, i think possibly, if unchecked and without limits.. will just encourage more and more of these operations... eventually it is possible that thered be a point where such operations will be sucking the oxygen out of the room and taking away resources and interest in participants from the community that has enjoyed an event unmediated by the almighty monetary gain we see nearly everywhere else.

yeah.. i might not be able to pick a plug and play vendor camp out of a line up.. i might not be able to pick a plug and play camper out of a lineup..

but just as its impossible, and totally foolish, to assume to be able to look at anyone in a bad neighbood and know if it is a criminal...and that you know you couldnt pick the criminals out in a lineup if you hadnt see them doing a crime...... youd still realize the effect of crime on the neighborhood.. negative.


so yeah!! we can pretend like vendor business camps operating at the event is not a problem because their visibility remains low..and we can still do our own thing..... but, if encouraged the people who are aware of them, and the awareness of such camps themselves, will increase and participants will either start joining them.. or stop building things... it might not be an issue right now.. but,.. i believe it likely would be in the future if these things go encouraged.... or encouraged but without heavy sanctions
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Re: Plug & Play Camping

Postby lemur » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:24 pm

Headmaster Janus wrote:Question: Are we hosting a Plug & Play camp?

For our 2012 Erection (BaalMart), MalMart needs approx $20K-$25K to rent scaffolding, speakers, projectors, lights, & moving trucks. ........Currently we have 22 total Core Mal-Mart members

That said, we 22 cant afford $1K+ each. We have to bring in non-core people to assist via camp dues and fundraisers. We are looking to charge $150-$200 in dues per person and seeking to get a total camp size of 100-149. In exchange for camp dues, people get a communal kitchen they can use to cook their own food, a patch of prime real estate to put up their tent, and a huge grey water evap pool. They also get the opportunity to participate daily with the Baal-Mart structure, events, and activities.

...The only 4 things we ask our non-core members is to bring a couple of handles of vodka to donate to the bar, to keep the kitchen clean, to perform daily Moop patrols of the camp, and to help with the breakdown of the structure. They still have to bring all of their own tents, food, water, costumes, bikes, RVs, etc.

So in that broad spectrum, what are we? Plug & Play? Pay To Play? Theme Camp? Where do you draw the line?.


It seems to me like you are selling spaces in your camp to raise funds for infrastructure that you cannot afford.

Call it fundraising, (people have been calling it that for a long time) ..but as you need to bring in 100+ people totally uninvolved in your camp,..of the streets, and ask them to pay $150-200 just to camp there.. yeah, you are turning the event into a commodity..

they get to camp in your camp because they paid money.. they are totally uninvolved with your camp beyond what you tell them to do... the only purpose to sell these spots and allow them there is to bring in money to build something that you guys cannot afford.

basically, you planned too much stuff, couldnt afford it, and realized 'HEY I KNOW HOW WE CAN GET MONEY.. BY CHARGING STRANGERS WHO ARENT PART OF OUR CAMP TO CAMP HERE'

you arent pooling resources in an organic way.. you are charging money to camp in your camp.. asking total strangers who arent devoted to your project and might just want to be in 'a camp' to camp there...

you are turning the event into a commodity.

you are selling a service to people for money.

whether or not youre making a big awesome participatory camp,.. youre selling spaces to people uninvolved in your project .. and their only value to you is their MONEY.

if you cant afford that huge infrastructure yourselves.. perhaps dont plan so big ?

...looking to the community to build up the warchest, through payments in exchange for services is turning the event into a commodity.

whether its for profit, or not.. whether its to fundraise for some awesome project you cannot afford or not..

you are basically fundraising ON THE PLAYA...

theres no problem with a traditional off-playa fundraiser, because the commodification of experiences remains solely outside of the burning man event, kickstartr, concerts.. etc thats fine.

but youre selling spots to your playa camp to fund that camp.. asking strangers to pay your way... to make your awesome plans that you cannot afford come to fruition

and in that, you are into the realm of a vendor camp, in that youre a plug & play for monetary gain camp.. and in that.. yer doin it wrong.

(edit: dont think that i am saying camps shouldnt pool resources in the form of camp dues.. ...they should, and usually.. they do so organically.. camp dues are paid by the members of that micro community, the friends and acquaintances in that social network pay it all... and they dont just start appealing to total strangers when they realize they cant afford to do what they want.... organic pooling of resources should be the norm....people shouldnt look to strangers whos only real place in the camp is as someone who paid money to fill in the gaps where the organic resrouce pooling failed.)
Last edited by lemur on Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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