Should BM ban motorized scooters (except art vehicles) ?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby TestesInSac » Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:47 pm

Halo Joe wrote:
casnimot wrote:
Tristan wrote:...blindingly stupid socialist fuckwitery...


HAR! Fuck, I'm more of a left-winger than a right, and I STILL love yer digs, Tom!


Thanks, HJ, wish I'd gotten to meet you. What I can't figure out is if this guy is serious or just trolling. Does he really not get that BM is in Nevada because it can't be done in CA?
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Postby Halo Joe » Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:51 pm

Probably. Hell, other than a handful of other states, Nevada is about the ONLY place BM could be held, geographically speaking -- the fire hazard alone would get us banned from most places. (Forget about government's role in clearing the whole thang.)
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Postby s5 » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:00 pm

i have a better idea. why not, instead, tax people who want to create endless rules and regulations that force their preferences on other bm attendees? not only would the tax pay for the costly enforcement infrastructure that they desire so desperately, but it would discourage them from attending burning man in the first place. the result: fewer rules and regulations, fewer killjoy fun haters, more self-reliance, less whinging and moaning about other people's choices and outlets for expression. it's a win-win situation!
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Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:02 pm

Halo Joe wrote:Probably. Hell, other than a handful of other states, Nevada is about the ONLY place BM could be held, geographically speaking -- the fire hazard alone would get us banned from most places. (Forget about government's role in clearing the whole thang.)

Dry lakebeds similar to black rock desert are all being used by the military in CA...
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Postby playasnake » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:05 pm

and california has plenty of desert
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Postby TestesInSac » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:06 pm

s5 wrote:i have a better idea. why not, instead, tax people who want to create endless rules and regulations that force their preferences on other bm attendees? not only would the tax pay for the costly enforcement infrastructure that they desire so desperately, but it would discourage them from attending burning man in the first place. the result: fewer rules and regulations, fewer killjoy fun haters, more self-reliance, less whinging and moaning about other people's choices and outlets for expression. it's a win-win situation!


Non-DJ Casnimot says LMAO!
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Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:06 pm

playasnake wrote:and california has plenty of desert
yes, but "regular" desert (e.g. east mojave, death valley, etc) have lots of wild life (turtoises, snakes, lizards, birds, wild horses, burros, rodents, rabbits, i've see all that in the desert) and they are environmentally protected.

Only alcaline dry lake beds have absolutely no wildlife, except a few birds and insects that cross over...

China lake in CA (air-force base) would have been nice!
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that's it latter for you guys

Postby THE ORIGINAL DIGIMAN » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:20 pm

that's it latter for you guys....next year i'm gonna bring my horse.



:lol:
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Re: that's it latter for you guys

Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:22 pm

digiman wrote:that's it latter for you guys....next year i'm gonna bring my horse.
:lol:

a couple of years ago, some guy brought 3 camels, that was fun. can you bring an elephant, too ?
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has anyone checked out Tristan's photography?

Postby THE ORIGINAL DIGIMAN » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:25 pm

has anyone checked out Tristan's photography? it's pretty good.

http://www.bok.net/~tristan/photos/boyskout/html/
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Re: has anyone checked out Tristan's photography?

Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:29 pm

Last edited by Tristan on Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:38 am, edited 3 times in total.
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yeah i saw that.

Postby THE ORIGINAL DIGIMAN » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:31 pm

yeah i saw that. i wanted to send you something but your email only takes text.



oh well
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Postby PJ » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:35 pm

Tristan wrote:China lake in CA (air-force base) would have been nice!


Actually, it's a US Navy facility. Ironic, no?
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Whats all this banning stuff about

Postby Madrone » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:42 pm

I went to burning man in 93, 94, 95 when it was much smaller, really focused a lot on art and had a more defined spiritual awareness for me. I led a spiral dance around the man before he burned, only to have 20 folks on acid messing it all up. I at that moment could only let go and surrender to the desert. I could only laugh at the jumble. Only 2,000 to 4,000 people in those years. I went back this year, house music on every corner, 30,000 people, lots of alchol, lots of ravers, do I want to ban any of them NO NO NO. Its what happens, one thing we can be certain of, change is immanent. Burning Man has a life of its own, a flow of its own, it will continue to change, maybe for the worst, maybe the better. Each one of us defines what we appreciate in different ways. One of the main ideals of Burning Man is freedom of expression.

I lived on Dogma and Imagined at 8.35 and heard the forever house music, wished they would stop, but I just put my earplugs in, and allowed the thump thump to become a part of me. Which is hard as I am a light sleeper.

Burning Man is a Kaleidascope of human wackyness. Of crazed inspired art. Sexy ass's and our beautiful breasts. Its also for me a week of my insides screaming outside of me. I live on the fringe but it felt good to be around so many other fringe dwellers. I can only make it be for me what I allow it to be. Get filthy, get down, open up. Do stuff I dont usually do, like sing Karaoke at Clive Schwanks Mermaid Lounge. Be miserable in the mornings when I wake up not being able to breathe, desert boogers, playa head. Its all of it..

If we start to try and ban stuff, we suffocate ouselves, we stifle what its all about. Sometimes it might just be time to not go to Burning Man, take a year off. It will change and of that we can be sure.
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Postby Halo Joe » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:00 pm

Here my take:
Two-cycle scooters as basic playa transportation = bad.
Two-cycle scooters as two of my friends built them -- into replicas of P-51 Mustangs buzzing across the open playa, complete with blinking LEDs on the wings, gun barrels and propellers = phukkin' great!
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Postby Jane Eric » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:10 pm

The P-51 Mustangs buzzed by Playa Air numerous times. They were fantab. We started calling them our wingmen.
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Postby stuart » Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:47 pm

I want to ban whatever music YOU like. I don't know what it is yet, but I am sure it sucks ass. Considering the state of things, odds are in my favor.
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Postby Julie » Fri Sep 05, 2003 5:52 pm

a couple of years ago, some guy brought 3 camels, that was fun. can you bring an elephant, too ?


Wow I totally forgot about the camels until just reading that. Thanks for sparking that memory again! I loved seeing them out there, a definite high-point

As for the proposition of motorized vehichles being regulated, all I have to say is..

Get over yourself

Regulating anything that's not overly endangering to BRC citizens is absurd. If you can't get past your own general annoyances at Burning Man, where can you get past them? Seriously. For every person that attends, there has to be at least one thing that bothers them during the event. The only difference is...they don't let it get to them.
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Postby III » Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:27 pm

>camels

having to clean up someone elses camel shit at our camp sucked.
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Postby Halo Joe » Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:33 pm

III wrote:>camels

having to clean up someone elses camel shit at our camp sucked.


Are you sure it was camel shit? Maybe it was just lazy burner shit.
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Postby III » Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:42 pm

watched it fall out of the camel's ass. pointed it out to the people riding the camel. was responded to with "it's not my camel", which has henceforth become a phrase expressing abdication of responsibility amongst our group.
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Postby Halo Joe » Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:54 pm

III wrote:watched it fall out of the camel's ass. pointed it out to the people riding the camel. was responded to with "it's not my camel", which has henceforth become a phrase expressing abdication of responsibility amongst our group.


That, sir, was camel shit. I believe you.
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Postby PJ » Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:59 pm

III wrote:watched it fall out of the camel's ass...



.jpg?
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Postby supersurly » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:11 pm

The obvious solution to this dilemma is not to enact a LAW banning the use of scooters, but to make scooter use so fucking unpleasant that anyone who foolishly brings an annoying scooter to the event never takes it out of their RV.

My suggestion?

Portable clothslines.

Preferably made out of piano wire.
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Postby PurpleKoosh » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:46 pm

III wrote:watched it fall out of the camel's ass. pointed it out to the people riding the camel. was responded to with "it's not my camel", which has henceforth become a phrase expressing abdication of responsibility amongst our group.

*cackle* Friends of mine back east are partial to the phrase "not my yak" - I'll have to ask if it has a similar point of origin....
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Postby Ivy » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:48 pm

Ours is "not my tarp, not my problem."

See, while there may be reginal differences, people are the same deep down inside. :)
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in defense of scooters

Postby technopatra » Sat Sep 06, 2003 9:45 pm

Hm. I can't quite understand the scooter animosity. Can someone tell me why biking puts you on higher moral ground than scooting? And why does that selfsame moralistic criteria not apply to motorized armchairs and other only marginally artistic single-person conveyances?

I got an electric scooter and it made my Burn. I blew out my knee last November, and can't ride a bike for more than a block or so. I look like I can walk normally, and have only a wee bit of a limp left, but I'm still in at least mild pain 80% of the time I'm on my feet.

I'm not claiming that all scooter riders have nearly invisible injuries like myself. But the fact is, you don't know what someone else's sitch is unless you talk to them and assuming all scooter riders are lazy/anything is narrow-minded and prejudicial. It's like assuming that a Burner dressed in "normal" clothes is a just a spectator because they aren't wearing a costume, when in fact they could have spent 80 hours labeling and mailing newsletters before the event, or maybe they work every week on a Burning Man database, or maybe they will stay 2 weeks after the event cleaning the playa of moop.

That said, anyone riding a scooter or bike without lights and decorations should be shot. I nearly got plowed by several non-lit folks, even with my own scooter's EL wire blinking like mad.
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Postby Tristan » Sat Sep 06, 2003 10:22 pm

> Can someone tell me why biking puts you on higher moral ground than scooting?

It is not moral ground.

They are a danger and ennoyance.

It is very easy to go fast with a motorized scooter, as it does not require any effort, as a consequence you see lots of careless (dangerous) and fast driving.

The two-stroke ones generate noise on the playa. The electric ones don't generate noise on the playa, but they require generators that generate noise in the camps.

It's just fine if they are art vehicles, decorated and interesting/funny/weired/etc, or if they are used for medical reasons. But I think it's a bad idea to allow motorized scooters on the playa as a basic transportation to replace bicycles just because "it's more fun" ... and less of an effort to those who can affort them.

Motorized scooters create danger and ennoyance on the playa and don't bring anything good to the community.

Motorized armchairs are art vehicles. You cannot go to your corner store and buy one, you have to make it.

You cannot compare them with un-decorated, standard 45cc motorized-scooters!

According to the BM rules, they may be allowed only in the outer city, but not on the playa, unless they have an art-vehicle permit. Only human-powered vehicles (e.g. bicycles) and authorized motor or wind-powered vehicles (art and other) are allowed on the playa.

Aren't those the rules ?
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Solar-powered scooter camp

Postby judlew » Mon Sep 08, 2003 12:27 pm

Hi everyone --

At my camp in the Alternative Energy Zone, we created two solar-assisted scooters, which charged up some and ran by day on solar panels attached to the scooters. We also topped off batteries throughout the day on our solar generator back at camp.

I can't tell you how valuable this experience was for all of us. For one, I learned about motors and solar energy and amps and watts and volts in an experiential way. That never would have happened were it not for the way Burning Man inspires me to do a cool project -- ideally something that symbolizes the way I'd like to be living all the time (without gas, for sure). It would never had happened if scooters had been banned.

Also, we all felt like upstanding and creative citizens of the playa more than ever before. People oohed and ahhed, they saw that alternative-energy transportation is possible, and the scooters were quiet and beautiful. When I rode one of the scooters in Critical Tits, everyone was unequivocally delighted.

We responded to the noisy, stinky gas scooters by shouting "Go Solar!" in a friendly way. Banning too many things just because they annoy you, making more rules just because you're righteous -- it only makes people more rebellious. To my mind, BMan runs so well because people have freedom, and can choose to be generous and responsible, and usually find that they're cooler and more popular if they don't act like assholes.

Just my two experiential cents --

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Postby heat » Mon Sep 08, 2003 12:45 pm

Yep. Agree. Unless the theme next year is Separation and we have a Scooter Zone.
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