Should BM ban motorized scooters (except art vehicles) ?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Bob » Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:34 pm

I've seen people on those glorified pogo sticks, and I'm a fourth-fucking-generation San Franciscan, so don't get me started, hippie.

As for scooters at Burning Man...

The Rangers banned all wind vehicles for no logical reason at all after '98, and to date have paid absolutely no heed to bar cars, unfunded and/or funded.

Mind you, "Art Cars" are okay because of some kind of countercultural taboo against dissing countercultural fuckwits.

Funded bar cars. Think about it.

Fucking people. Leave the scooters alone until they kill someone.
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Postby christo » Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:50 pm

Bob wrote:I've seen people on those glorified pogo sticks


hmmm - You have me wonderin' if I could mate those hydraulic lifters to the Seg? You know - to make it jump at intersections like Julio? hmmm, that would be cool.

You might be ok, Bob. (what kind of a name is "bob" anyway?)
Sounds like some hippie namby name or somethin' Say what - you should change that to Julio ...

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Postby Kinetic » Sat Sep 20, 2003 11:56 pm

Some people like asking for trouble...messin with DPW is a good way to get it because they are so unpredictable.

I agree with Bob, leave the scooters alone. Of course guess who's looking for a scooter for next year?
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Postby TestesInSac » Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:41 am

That's Bob. Pointedly cold water on pointlessly heated discussions.
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Reconsider this before the town hall meeting

Postby Kinetic II » Thu Dec 04, 2003 9:55 pm

8)
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Postby harleyb » Thu Dec 18, 2003 12:00 pm

Tristan wrote:
s5 wrote:Even electric scooters cause noise and pollution (you need a generator to recharge them, so the noise and pollution are in the camp, is it better ?).


I must disagree here. I rode an electric hybrid bicycle this year (electric assist while I pedaled), and charged it totally from solar power. The electric assist simply allowed me to cover a lot more ground without getting pooped or pained (bad knee, don't you know). But then, we at AEZ know how to do these things... :wink:
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Postby Badger » Thu Dec 18, 2003 6:58 pm

The Rangers banned all wind vehicles for no logical reason at all after '98


No Bob. It was not the Rangers.
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Postby Chai Guy » Thu Dec 18, 2003 7:35 pm

The Rangers banned all wind vehicles for no logical reason at all after '98


Badger's right, and I don't know that I agree with you on the whole "illogical" part. There might be some logic in banning wind powered vehicles in city known for it's sudden wind storms of 60+ miles per hour.

Read this and decide for yourself:
http://snrc.stanford.edu/~petrie/burn.html

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Postby Badger » Thu Dec 18, 2003 8:27 pm

If I could ever again see Pepe (Peh-PAY) as pissed as he was when that sailer crashed his art piece I'd fucking MANDATE that all vehicles be wind powered and MUST operate within 30' radius of anything that guy puts together.

Seeing his ego bust open was like putting a firecracker up a bull's ass.

It was a Playa Moment(TM) folks. I tell ya.
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Postby Lydia Love » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:07 pm

real "opera" fan, eh?
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Postby Badger » Thu Dec 18, 2003 10:38 pm

More an opera fan than a Pepe fan.
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Postby Bob » Fri Dec 19, 2003 3:51 pm

Badger wrote:
The Rangers banned all wind vehicles for no logical reason at all after '98


No Bob. It was not the Rangers.


Technically, you may be correct wrt the agency "input" that was said to have intitiated a policy enacted by your, er, superiors.

My inderstanding is that a huge enormous Brobdingnagian fatass of a running grudge against the wee run-of-the-mill landsailors was as big a factor as any, and somehow the opposition of one of the locals, who happened to be in the "landsailor community", wrt the EIS got caught up in the mix.

Now that art cars are known to kill but are still permitted, I'd think easing up on land sailing would be a no-brainer, esp if you do it without a helmet.

And as I've said a few times, I was there in '98, riding around the scene w/ Wet Spot. The radio chatter was fucking hilarious.
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Postby Bob » Fri Dec 19, 2003 7:25 pm

ITIM "'our' 'superiors'".
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scooter city....

Postby Jimbobwe » Wed Jan 07, 2004 5:32 pm

Yep a lot of scooters but none were decorated. I myself had a scooter last year but I spent several months turning it into a low rider Harley style scooter. My second day at the burn, Ranger Spice tells me to get off of it because he thought that it was a motorcycle. Being that Ranger spice was cool and absolutely right, I thought about it and decide to park it, just for principle.
So I must agree. Next year no scooter for me. I'll dream up something else....
So thats one scooter you won't see.
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Postby stuart » Thu Jan 08, 2004 12:14 pm

I can understand that exchange. If I take a ford aspire and dress it up to look like a ford bronco, with flame paint job even, while what I have done may be considered art, it is expressly discouraged by the DMV. I totally respect you for parking it.
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Postby 68barracuda » Thu Jan 08, 2004 1:48 pm

Hmm... I think I'll build an Italian/Roman courtyard fountain on wheels and hang around the porto-poops when the lines get long..

How about a line of portajohns art car? People get in but they can't get out untill they get dumped some distance away from where they got in.

Mike

Can I bring one of these to ride outside the city?

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we need a petition

Postby Courtney » Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:19 am

I felt the same about the new pests that I believe the lazy people have found as an opportunity to be irresponsible. I may sound harsh but that is what I saw with most users of them and the noise level was out of hand. Users also seemed to lay them on their sides leaving behind an amount of fuel or oil that they certainly didnt take home with them(leave no trace). It seems as human nature goes, a situation always has to get out of hand and painful before we do anything about it so I think it should resolve itself eventually. I witnessed more than one colission and many riding at night without any lights. What happened to the infectious attitude about being creative, artistic, making extra efforts to make the event happy for all? I personally believe people should pedal across the Playa as I did several times in one night and get the exercise. It never slowed me down or bummed me out. 2002 was almost right on the nose with power vehicles being exclusively art associated and this year was 100 times worse. If we all push together to make sure it gets regulated and forces people to be creative as a trade for their convenience, then I assure you all that the average scooter users will not make the effort thus resolving it mostly. Now if we can only think of a way to keep the same "Under the Rug Sweepers" that bring a crap bike to Bman and conveniently "lose" it there as a means of disposing of it, then I think we will be on the right track. Its very sad people can be like cattle and make a great thing like Bman have to be so organized. Arent we all supposed to be laid back? Some day.
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no scoots or other non human powered that aint art

Postby epic » Mon Jan 12, 2004 1:47 pm

Lets face it, motorized things are for lazy asses, same with many of the other carts, etc that aren't really arty. It's an extension of the world, no one wants to actually exercise, which is way most adults are overweight. Bikes don't move as fast without a helluva lotta effort on that surface, especially not the crappy bikes people ride there. And scoots are noisy and they pollute. I've had near collisions with some of them.
I'm more concerned the endless array of house music camps with their giant diesel generators and booty thumping megawatt sound systems. Louder is not better and turn that s**t down between 5 am and noon! I'm thinking of pulling plugs or more. Even with earplugs and shooting earmuffs you still feel the bass vibrations.
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Postby stuart » Mon Jan 12, 2004 2:26 pm

turn that s**t down between 5 am and noon


but dancing to thumping music while the sun comes up over the mountains is one of my fav things at BM.

there are quiet areas of the city. I have camped in them and slept w/o earplugs easily
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in defense of scooter folk

Postby technopatra » Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:17 pm

epic wrote:Lets face it, motorized things are for lazy asses, same with many of the other carts, etc that aren't really arty. It's an extension of the world, no one wants to actually exercise, which is way most adults are overweight. Bikes don't move as fast without a helluva lotta effort on that surface, especially not the crappy bikes people ride there. And scoots are noisy and they pollute. I've had near collisions with some of them.


Or, they are for people like me, who had the misfortune of snapping an ACL months earlier, who can give the illusion of being healthy and able enough to ride a bicycle, but in fact would fall over crying after a pedal or two. My scooter was the only way I was able to experience the Chandelier, and the Temple of Gravity, and the drinking fountain, and my friends acros town, and the trash fence itself on that night when I really needed to have a cleansing crying jag in peace.

But since I can't prove it without showing my MRIs, I no doubt pissed off a bunch of people who were willing to spend their time being pissed off at others rather than focus on their own experience.

Mine is electric, so didn't make any noise at all, and polluted not a bit. I'd say that in my own personal noise-to-noise experience ratio, gas scooters accounted for less that 1 hour's worth of noise in a three-week period - and that's just cuz another guy on staff in my camp brought one to negate the need/expense for a golf cart.

He frequently needed to get around fast to put out various work fires, and chose his scooter as a conscious decision to not be a drain on the Project's resources - and therefore not feel like he was using up anyone else's ticket money to serve his own needs.

Another friend of mine is simply a delicate person who can't handle exercising in the heat of the day. Should she be denied the opportunity to experience the event because she comes from not-so-hardy pale white folks?

I'm just saying that many folks who ride scooters have legitimate, and in fact well-intentioned, reasons for doing so.

But even if I was healthy as a horse and could race you to the Man barefoot, why shouldn't I have a personal vehicle that's fun for me to ride/drive? Yes it is decorated, but no more so than a bike It's no big ass piece of art in and of itself, but only a very small portion of bikes are, anyway. And folks frequently ride their bikes upwards of the 15 mph-range when they can. When I see them go I think:

"Wow that chick's flying! Woohoo!"

Why must anyone's reaction to the same on a scooter be:

"Wow that chick's flying! What a bullshit non-artist with nothing to contribute she must be. Let's hate her and all we decide she stands for."

?

Can I request we have a little less judgement and hyperbole, and a little more compassion and openmindedness...pretty please?
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Postby Markov Chaney » Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:26 pm

Damn tootin!

As long as people aren't hauling ass on the roads, and the number of scooters stays relatively low, why should it make a difference to anyone.

I think I'll have to make a new entry in the crushes thread..
Mmmmm... Technopatra
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Postby stuart » Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:29 pm

I suppose you could take your MRIs and make a flag out of them for your scooter. Art and explanation all in one.
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Postby technopatra » Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:48 pm

stuart wrote:I suppose you could take your MRIs and make a flag out of them for your scooter. Art and explanation all in one.


Now why the hell didn't I think of that? Dammit Stuart, where were you when I needed you?

Actually I was going to make a lamp skirt - underlight it with el-wire - but the el-wire wasn't bright enough. And I couldn't really sit down without cracking the films (they're pretty stiff already). I've got a buddy who is playing with super-brite LEDs that I hope to consult - maybe a nice tall hat? Or double-sided bat wings?
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Postby technopatra » Mon Jan 12, 2004 5:49 pm

Markov Chaney wrote:Damn tootin!

As long as people aren't hauling ass on the roads, and the number of scooters stays relatively low, why should it make a difference to anyone.

I think I'll have to make a new entry in the crushes thread..
Mmmmm... Technopatra


*blushes*
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thats a fallacy-anyway your ACL needs physical therapy

Postby epic » Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:41 pm

thats the same argument people make about mandating handicapped parking spaces, when in fact 90% are either not occupied or are used by people with no handicap. IF you allow motorized vehicles you are in effect allowing motorcyles. Motorcycles are not allowed to be ridden around if not arty.
Explain how a "delicate" pale person could walk around in the heat of day but not pedal a bike slowly, which is actually MORE demanding then biking because its so much slower. And if she can't walk in the heat you're saying she can ride a scooter in it? BS, doesn't fly. Many of the foks there are delicate and they wear a hat, use SPF 50 and mist themselves while chugging water. Surviving in a harsh environment doesn't include scooters. BAN EM ALL!! That's my judgement.
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Re: thats a fallacy-anyway your ACL needs physical therapy

Postby technopatra » Tue Jan 13, 2004 11:48 am

Actually no, my ACL needs surgery, which I could not afford then and can not yet afford.

You can expresss any opinion you want here, but if you care about having a real conversation, or having people consider your opinions, or making a connection with this community, you may want to consider turning down the hostility and presumptions, and try opening your mind to experiences outside of your own. I promise it won't hurt you to listen.

epic wrote:thats the same argument people make about mandating handicapped parking spaces, when in fact 90% are either not occupied or are used by people with no handicap. IF you allow motorized vehicles you are in effect allowing motorcyles. Motorcycles are not allowed to be ridden around if not arty.
Explain how a "delicate" pale person could walk around in the heat of day but not pedal a bike slowly, which is actually MORE demanding then biking because its so much slower. And if she can't walk in the heat you're saying she can ride a scooter in it? BS, doesn't fly. Many of the foks there are delicate and they wear a hat, use SPF 50 and mist themselves while chugging water. Surviving in a harsh environment doesn't include scooters. BAN EM ALL!! That's my judgement.


Biking can be more demanding than walking because you dehydrate faster. You can bike to somewhere, and not have the energy to get home. Biking uses a different set of muscle groups.

Motorized vehicles are allowed - they include all mutant vehicles, scooters, wheelchairs. Motorcycles are heavy, can tear up the playa, use more fuel, have more power, and can achieve exponentially greater speeds. Comparing a scooter to a motorcycle is like comparing a grape to a grapefruit. It's nonsensical.

It sounds, tho, like your real complaint is the concept of human- vs. power-assisted motion. Are you really this resistant to acknowledging that physical challenges exist for others, or to opening your mind to alternatives for those who need them? It indicates a specific lack of experience with people wth disabilities, and a general lack of sensitivity to others.

I used to feel the same way you do about handicapped parking spaces until I blew my knee. I was on crutches for 4 months and experienced a whole new world. It took so much more energy for me to get around, I was in such pain, that sometimes the 20 ft distance between the handicapped spot and the place I ended up parking because some yahoo was in the handicapped spot literally wiped me out. On the playa, scooting from my camp to center camp allowed me to spend my energy working, and allowed me to experience the art I wouldn't have had the energy to get out to see.

I think it's great that you are hearty & hale, and that the desert environment poses no physical challenge to you. Congratulations, I hope you appreciate what you have, and I sincerely hope you get to keep it for the rest of your life.
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Postby Booker » Tue Jan 13, 2004 12:03 pm

I dislike the gas-powered ones. They're too noisy & they stink too much. The electrics have no more impact on their surroundings than a bike, as far as I can tell. The generator that recharges them needs to be low-impact, as well, but that's the only possible negative effect I see in them.

>>Surviving in a harsh environment doesn't include scooters. BAN EM ALL!! That's my judgement.

Wow. I'm in awe of your universal certainty, epic. If only we were all as full of good judgment as you are. 'Course the definition of "good judgment" might substitute differently from person to person.
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Postby Badger » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:07 pm

That's my judgement.


Of which you seem to have a lot of Epic.
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Postby Chai Guy » Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:45 pm

I don't like scooters, nor do I like art cars. I don't think in designing a city that we should really encourage those kinds of transportation (individual, loud, noisy, polluting etc.) and make no mistake about it, those people on the scooters aren't riding them around as an expression of their art, they just want to get to the potties, man, rave camp etc. faster.

The scooter problem is just going to get worse. If you don't hate scooters now, wait until next year when instead of a dozen or so scooters you encounter several hundred (they are really increasing in popularity in the default world and are becoming less and less expensive all the time). (again I'm speaking of the gas powered scooters, I don't have much of a problem with the electric scooters). I think gas powered scooters need to go the way of burning couches on the open playa, for much the same reasons.

As for people with disabilities, I think they should be afforded whatever help they need to get around and see the event. Just get a sticker from the DMV.

And while we are on the subject. There are two kinds of handicapped parking, one allows extra room for vans with ramps. If you happen to have a handicap sticker/hanger for your car (for whatever reason) and you don't have a van with a ramp, please make every effort to not park in that van spot. My mom (and other people who drive vans with ramps) can only park in that spot, or they have to wait for that spot to become available. Sometimes the van spots will have a picture of a van with a ramp, sometimes not, but you can tell because there is a large rectangular shaped space painted blue to the right of the parking stall.
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Postby brillig » Tue Jan 13, 2004 8:26 pm

Motorized vehicles add noise, dust and accidents (including fatalities) to BM. Sometimes we'd be having a quiet meal at our camp, and a speeding whatever would spread a cloud of dust over what had been clean and good tasting food.
I have no problem with people using some kind of vehicle because they have a medical problem that keeps them from getting around. But I'd be a lot happier if BM had far fewer gasoline engines around (and that includes generators).
Americans worship gasoline almost as much as they worship money. So art that moves is cooler than art that just sits there.
I'd like to see speed limits enforced. I'd also like to get the word out that driving around BM is stupid, ugly and lame. Some traffic-free parks would be nice, where you could get away from it all.
I go to Orr Hot Springs, and this is what they do: They provide large carts so you can bring your stuff from the parking area to where you are staying. Sometimes it takes two trips. It makes it a great experience.
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