Should BM ban motorized scooters (except art vehicles) ?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Should BM ban motorized scooters (except art vehicles) ?

Postby Tristan » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:35 pm

I think BM should ban all motorized scooters (including electric ones), except those that are registered art vehicules, with the proper DMV sticker (i.e. significantly modified, decorated, etc).

There were way too many people using mopeds-type scooters this year, often driving very fast, and the problem has gotten worse the last couple of years - probably because of those motorized scooters are getting easier to find and cheaper.

The black rock rangers don't seem to care, ther never check if vehicles used on the playa or around the BRC streets have the required DMV sticker.

Only bicycles and registered art vehicules are allowed, and this should be *strictly* enforced.

No other motor vehicles allowed. Period.

I am generally against enforcement of rules, especially when you don't bother anyone else, but here the well being of all is compromized by the lazyness of a few who prefer using a motorized scooter (fast and noisy and polluting and probably more dangerous than a bicycle) rather than a bicycle. I don't like this trend at all.

If you allow un-decorated motorized scooters, then why no allow motorcycles ? there is no limit there!

There are already way too many engines in black rock city... i'm talking about the tousands of generators, which I also think should be somehow regulated (e.g. you would need to pay $300 more to have the right to bring in a generator, and this extra cash would reduce the price of regular tickets!).
Last edited by Tristan on Sun Sep 07, 2003 4:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: motorized scooters shld be banned (except reg. art vehic

Postby ckburn » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:38 pm

Tristan wrote:The black rock rangers don't seem to care, ther never check if vehicles used on the playa or around the BRC streets have the required DMV sticker.


Volunteer some ranger shifts out there and people might take this kind of crap a bit more seriously.

Rangers don't care my ass.

Fuck.
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Postby Tristan » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:41 pm

I know there are probably not enough rangers, and that they have more important things to do than running after motorized scooters.

I am not saying it is their fault.

But there should be rules that motorized scooters are not allowed. They should not even be allowed to enter the perimeter.

This is one of the things that really bothered me this year.
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now that I've gotten over my knee-jerk fuck-you reaction

Postby ckburn » Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:43 pm

Yeah, I agree. Get rid of the damn things. 90% of the riders go faster than 5 mph, and no one, I mean no one has time to enforce driving rules on these damn things.

Good riddance, I say.
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Postby Ardust Plaza » Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:13 pm

Yup. Art or get rid.
"We are the fire that whirls across the stellar deeps and dances all things into being." - David Zindell.
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Postby bradDaDad » Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:17 am

Yes, ban them. I get enough exhaust and similar bullshit in the city.
It promotes laziness and yahoos. Critical Mass rocks.
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Postby s5 » Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:59 am

i disagree entirely. although i stick to human powered vehicles (like bikes and feet), i don't see much difference between a motorized scooter riding at 20mph or a bicycle riding at 20mph. the only difference seems to be aesthetic preference.

also, i'd much rather support a ban on house music than scooters. ;)
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Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:09 am

s5 wrote:i disagree entirely. although i stick to human powered vehicles (like bikes and feet), i don't see much difference between a motorized scooter riding at 20mph or a bicycle riding at 20mph. the only difference seems to be aesthetic preference.

I see one major difference: noise and pollution.

Even electric scooters cause noise and pollution (you need a generator to recharge them, so the noise and pollution are in the camp, is it better ?).

I have no problem with bicycles riding at 20 mph when there is nothing close to them (even though it is technically illegal). Riding anything 20mph in the middle of a crowd is dangerous.

Also, it require some effort to ride a bicycle fast, while going fast on a scooter require no effort at all.
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Postby s5 » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:16 am

if you're concerned about noise and pollution, then may i suggest that your first target should be the endless array of house music camps with their giant diesel generators and booty thumping megawatt sound systems. :)

would it bother you less if someone charged their scooter with a fuel cell or solar panel array? is it about the scooters or their source of power?
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Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:19 am

I did not realize that this subject is also extensively discussed in this thread:
viewtopic.php?t=90
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Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:33 am

> if you're concerned about noise and pollution, then may i suggest that your first target should be the endless array of house music camps with their giant diesel generators and booty thumping megawatt sound systems. :)

There should be zones reserved for loud music (there are some defined, but maybe too many camps did not respect the rules here).

There was a camp in a "quite" zone that was playing very very loud techno music 24h non-stop, and this was quite ennoying (near 8:30 and dogma).

> would it bother you less if someone charged their scooter with a fuel cell or solar panel array?

not really.

> is it about the scooters or their source of power?

It's a combination of things. One of them is that it is very easy to go fast with a motorized vehicule, as it does not require any effort.

I was riding an art-wind-powered vehicle, and I can tell you that going fast was not something I wanted to do - not only it require some effort, but falling fast on the playa was not tempting either.

The fact that you have no engine makes a big difference. Also it makes a difference in the behavior of the rider. People driving motorized vehicles seem less respectful of others, from my observations.
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Postby bradDaDad » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:39 am

It's the pollution, but I like the craziness without too many rules also.
Solar panels and and marine battery storage is the way to go, but that costs money.
S5, where was the punk music?
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Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:42 am

Except for people who have a medical condition (broken limb etc), I see no excuse for using a motorized scooter (even electrical), rather than a bicycle.
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Postby s5 » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:57 am

Tristan wrote:Except for people who have a medical condition (broken limb etc), I see no excuse for using a motorized scooter (even electrical), rather than a bicycle.


maybe the excuse is "it's fun". :)
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Postby olivia » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:02 am

Tristan wrote:Except for people who have a medical condition (broken limb etc), I see no excuse for using a motorized scooter (even electrical), rather than a bicycle.


what if it's REALLY REALLY COOL and FUN? i saw some pretty cool scooters. ok, maybe one of a possible five, but it was still pretty cool.

i spectated someone doing doughnuts on a segway in the middle of the playa. it definitely looked fun, even though it was undecorated.
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Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:02 am

s5 wrote:
Tristan wrote:Except for people who have a medical condition (broken limb etc), I see no excuse for using a motorized scooter (even electrical), rather than a bicycle.


maybe the excuse is "it's fun". :)

Yes, I'm sure that's this is the excuse.

It's fun for me, but it is bothering the others.

I don't think that it's a good philosophy at BM. You should not do anything the bother others just for your egotistical benefit.
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Postby s5 » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:10 am

but policing other people's lifestyle for the purpose of limiting your annoyance IS an egotistical benefit. why should i trade my ego-stroking for your ego-stroking? if there's no obvious improvement in public safety, then it is inappropriate for an event focused on "radical self-expression" to regulate behavior for the sake of some people's aesthetic desire.
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Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:14 am

I don't think motorize scooters ennoy just me. I think the majority of people would agree to ban them at BM.

Look at this thread: viewtopic.php?t=90

Many people seem to be ennoyed by those motorized scooters, from what I read there.

I am also ennoyed by generators in private camps, and I don't think I am the only one either. For the generator problem, I think if could be fair to create a "generator tax", say $300 to have the right to use a generator, and this would offset the price of the ticket for burners that can live a week with no electricity.

Yes, some things are fun. I have a dirt motorbike and it's fun to ride it on the playa. I have done that, but not during BM.
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Postby s5 » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:20 am

is it any surprise that a thread started for the purpose of complaining about motorized vehicles would want to ban scooters? it's hardly a representative survey.
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Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:25 am

s5 wrote:is it any surprise that a thread started for the purpose of complaining about motorized vehicles would want to ban scooters? it's hardly a representative survey.

Do you honnestly think that a majority of burners do like those motorized scooters and would like more of them on the playa ?

You can make a polling thread on the subject if you want to gather the general feeling...

You can also make a thread with subject "it's so much fun to ride a motorized scooter on the playa" and see what people say...
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Postby s5 » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:36 am

i honestly think it's no one's business what the majority wants or doesn't want. the majority of americans believes that homosexual relationships are somewhere between immoral and depraved, but that doesn't mean they should have any right to dictate the behavior of others. hence the phrase, "the tyranny of the majority".

if scooters aren't threatening public safety (or at least, they're no more or less threatening than bicycles or any other typical burning man activity), then there is no reason to regulate them. it's as simple as that. if they annoy someone, it's up to that someone to transcend their annoyance, and it's not the place of anyone to limit or police the behavior of the scooter rider. that's what "radical self-expression" means.

yes, some things are annoying at burning man. i really hated being woken up at 7am last year by some jackass with a megaphone. but as i laid in my bed, considering how i might kill him, i realized something: he was funny. and i mean, really funny. when i finally could open my eyes enough, i joined him with my megaphone and had a fantastic morning.
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as talented as tristan is as talented as she is

Postby THE ORIGINAL DIGIMAN » Fri Sep 05, 2003 2:56 am

as talented as tristan is to be talking about something as simple as "banning motorized scooters". sorry but i'm a very old timmer with burningman (94 and before where BM spun off from the Cacophony Society) and no one cared about anything as stupid as weathr motorized scooters should be banned or the cops comming onto the playa to bust people for smoking pot and lots of other simple silly shit. things were'nt so complicated. we all just had fun. it's too bad it's gotten to this point.
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Here, Here,,, what digicastipv7 said.

Postby joel the ornery » Fri Sep 05, 2003 3:22 am

It used to be about fun...

Less rules, more fun.
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Merow Olivia

Postby Gothalot » Fri Sep 05, 2003 8:06 am

Olivia will you marry me ? Yer bootiful, merow! Oh damn Im already spoken for, still I will lust you from afar. :twisted:
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Postby bradDaDad » Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:48 am

I guess that I have always thought that a progressive society was one that has figured out how to get rid of petroleum reliant machines. This is just a party of Neo Hells Angels. The icon is paralyzed on one side (start Sat Night Fever Music).
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Postby liebling » Fri Sep 05, 2003 9:59 am

i hope they're not banned. my scooter was the only way i was able to see the city this year.

last year i attended bm with a full leg cast and a wheelchair. i saw NOTHING. one man loaned me his golf cart for 4 hours one night and that was SO Cool. now and again i could coerce people to shove my ass along the streets, but i never got far. i spent hours upon hours in camp waving at people walking by.

my leg injury isnt really healing well, and i still have much pain when walking or standing. i was stuck in camp till thursday night, as getting my scooter running was not top-priority. we had arrived on tuesday. all i could do was just sit around and watch people walk by.

dont do it
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Interesting that you should mention solar panels...

Postby devilgrrl » Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:38 am

s5 wrote:if you're concerned about noise and pollution, then may i suggest that your first target should be the endless array of house music camps with their giant diesel generators and booty thumping megawatt sound systems. :)

would it bother you less if someone charged their scooter with a fuel cell or solar panel array? is it about the scooters or their source of power?


A fellow burner from Santa Cruz uses solar panels to power everything he brings to burning man. The lights for his shelter, the radio, the motor scooter and his blender! Personally, I have no objection to electric motor scooters and especially no objection to solar panels - I've gotta get me some of those!

I'm with posters who want to limit the tedious dance music. :twisted:
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Postby TestesInSac » Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:17 pm

Tristan wrote:I am also ennoyed by generators in private camps, and I don't think I am the only one either. For the generator problem, I think if could be fair to create a "generator tax", say $300 to have the right to use a generator, and this would offset the price of the ticket for burners that can live a week with no electricity.


There you demonstrate the kind of blindingly stupid socialist fuckwitery that makes BM impossible in states like CA. You'd tax and regulate the event to the point it would no longer exist. And you'd specifically, prejudicially tax those who want to serve blended drinks and play something other than techno for the privilege of doing it?

What absolute abject stupidity.
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Postby Tristan » Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:34 pm

casnimot wrote:
Tristan wrote:I am also ennoyed by generators in private camps, and I don't think I am the only one either. For the generator problem, I think if could be fair to create a "generator tax", say $300 to have the right to use a generator, and this would offset the price of the ticket for burners that can live a week with no electricity.


There you demonstrate the kind of blindingly stupid socialist fuckwitery that makes BM impossible in states like CA. You'd tax and regulate the event to the point it would no longer exist. And you'd specifically, prejudicially tax those who want to serve blended drinks and play something other than techno for the privilege of doing it?

What absolute abject stupidity.

Then why not just ban all electric generators except for the registered art camps ?

BM impossible in California ??? Come on, BM was created by people from San Francisco, and the first years it took place on Baker beach in SF. Most people who participate come from the bay area.
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Postby Halo Joe » Fri Sep 05, 2003 12:44 pm

casnimot wrote:
Tristan wrote:...blindingly stupid socialist fuckwitery...


HAR! Fuck, I'm more of a left-winger than a right, and I STILL love yer digs, Tom!
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