Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby kitoconnell » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:45 am

Hey everyone -- a lot of you know me as 'the lexicon guy,' and never fear A Burner Lexicon is returning soon -- probably this week! But I did want to share another piece of writing I just did.

3 Reasons Burners Should Join Occupy Wall Street

Are you participating at an occupation near you? Do you want too? Why or why not?
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:51 pm

Full props, my man.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby unjonharley » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:03 pm

Occupy Wall Street was yesterday

They failed for not having the Burning Man skills of health safety and welfare..
Or a lottery driven ticket sale..
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:09 pm

unjonharley wrote:Occupy Wall Street was yesterday

They failed for not having the Burning Man skills of health safety and welfare..
Or a lottery driven ticket sale..


It's a long way from gone, baby.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby BBadger » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:53 pm

1) We depend on the right to assemble.

Sure, on public property (Zucotti Park is not public property). But also remember that the right to assemble also does mean the same thing as the right to squat on public land. Nearly all these evictions have been on the grounds that setting up tent cities is squatting, not "assembling" for free-speech purposes. You can stand, you can sit, you can't set up kip. The reason for this is that most people don't want their public spaces turned into tent-cities--protests or not. The fact that tents were allowed for so long in Zucotti Park is because its owners, the "1%" Brookfield Properties, has allowed it.

Oh and the Rainbow Gathering would be evicted if it were possible. The Forest Service absolutely dreads their appearance because traditionally they just show up, ruin the place, and leave. It's only been recently that there are folk within that Rainbow Gathering who actually do some cleanup and try to fix up the ditch-toilets and other ruinous shit that used to plague many of the delicate natural areas those hippies would gather on.

The only reason the Rainbow Gathering doesn't get raided and shut down is that the Forest Service doesn't want to make a huge scene, and more importantly, they don't want those hippies secretly appearing in random locations for their gathering, notably wilderness zones where they'd cause incredible damage. It's an issue of containment, not that the Rainbow Gathering is permitted to set up wherever they want.

If OWS intends on emulating the Rainbow Gathering, this movement needs to be shut down immediately by any means possible.

2) OWS is building a new way of living.

Is that in the sense that it's trying to achieve a new way of living, or rather that way of living is needed to carry on OWS? There's a difference, and the former is what BM strives for, but the latter may be what OWS is stuck with. If this movement is all about this new way of living, why is the concentration on wealth distribution? Also where does "radical self-reliance" fit in with entitlements?

3) OWS needs our skills

Burning Man is an exercise in bringing extravagance to a desolate place. It's not about nomadic living. Furthermore, Burning Man is about art, whereas OWS is about... well... hanging around.

Still, with the glut of marginally school-educated people at OWS, what might be good is if BM/OWS helped people with worthless degrees (e.g. anthropology) to learn a useful trade (like plumbing or carpentry). Still, I'd rather see those skills invested at BM instead.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby Ugly Dougly » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:07 pm

BBadger wrote:Still, with the glut of marginally school-educated people at OWS...

Are the results of your survey published online somewhere? I'd be interested in seeing it.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby unjonharley » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:20 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:
BBadger wrote:Still, with the glut of marginally school-educated people at OWS...

Are the results of your survey published online somewhere? I'd be interested in seeing it.


People interviewed from Occupy Portland could barely hold saliva..

And no one can tell any one what the hell they are there for..
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby pizzamancer » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:34 pm

I suppose the biggest reason not to go:

If you take off work for OWS, you won't have enough money to go to Burning Man.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby wh..sh » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:55 pm

I am really hoping you are the right person to explain what the agenda of OWS is... then I might be in a better position to decide if I want to occupy anything at all.

"OWS is building a new way of living, just like we are. Occupy Wall Street is a do-ocracy. Already this movement is trying to build temporary communities built around decommodification and radical self-expression. They feed people — dozens or sometimes hundreds a day — and in some cases offer free medical care, veterinary care, Internet access and educational classes. Though efforts to improve are underway, one area that is lacking is in the amount of waste the occupations leave behind. Which brings me to my third reason… "

I am not sure how OWS and burning man is linked, except that at both places have tents.
Please help me understand as to why the "do-ocracy" is feeding people? I mean, shouldn't do-ocracy/self-reliance mean people being capable of feeding themselves?

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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby jkisha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:08 pm

Excuse me but your ignorance is showing. Go and visit and spend some time with an occupation and then I might consider what you have to say.
BBadger wrote:1) We depend on the right to assemble.

Sure, on public property (Zucotti Park is not public property). But also remember that the right to assemble also does mean the same thing as the right to squat on public land. Nearly all these evictions have been on the grounds that setting up tent cities is squatting, not "assembling" for free-speech purposes. You can stand, you can sit, you can't set up kip. The reason for this is that most people don't want their public spaces turned into tent-cities--protests or not. The fact that tents were allowed for so long in Zucotti Park is because its owners, the "1%" Brookfield Properties, has allowed it.

Oh and the Rainbow Gathering would be evicted if it were possible. The Forest Service absolutely dreads their appearance because traditionally they just show up, ruin the place, and leave. It's only been recently that there are folk within that Rainbow Gathering who actually do some cleanup and try to fix up the ditch-toilets and other ruinous shit that used to plague many of the delicate natural areas those hippies would gather on.

The only reason the Rainbow Gathering doesn't get raided and shut down is that the Forest Service doesn't want to make a huge scene, and more importantly, they don't want those hippies secretly appearing in random locations for their gathering, notably wilderness zones where they'd cause incredible damage. It's an issue of containment, not that the Rainbow Gathering is permitted to set up wherever they want.

If OWS intends on emulating the Rainbow Gathering, this movement needs to be shut down immediately by any means possible.

2) OWS is building a new way of living.

Is that in the sense that it's trying to achieve a new way of living, or rather that way of living is needed to carry on OWS? There's a difference, and the former is what BM strives for, but the latter may be what OWS is stuck with. If this movement is all about this new way of living, why is the concentration on wealth distribution? Also where does "radical self-reliance" fit in with entitlements?

3) OWS needs our skills

Burning Man is an exercise in bringing extravagance to a desolate place. It's not about nomadic living. Furthermore, Burning Man is about art, whereas OWS is about... well... hanging around.

Still, with the glut of marginally school-educated people at OWS, what might be good is if BM/OWS helped people with worthless degrees (e.g. anthropology) to learn a useful trade (like plumbing or carpentry). Still, I'd rather see those skills invested at BM instead.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby unjonharley » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:08 pm

wh..sh wrote:I am really hoping you are the right person to explain what the agenda of OWS is... then I might be in a better position to decide if I want to occupy anything at all.

"OWS is building a new way of living, just like we are. Occupy Wall Street is a do-ocracy. Already this movement is trying to build temporary communities built around decommodification and radical self-expression. They feed people — dozens or sometimes hundreds a day — and in some cases offer free medical care, veterinary care, Internet access and educational classes. Though efforts to improve are underway, one area that is lacking is in the amount of waste the occupations leave behind. Which brings me to my third reason… "

I am not sure how OWS and burning man is linked, except that at both places have tents.
Please help me understand as to why the "do-ocracy" is feeding people? I mean, shouldn't do-ocracy/self-reliance mean people being capable of feeding themselves?

“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”


OWS is teaching some thing HUH?.. How to damage parks, serve food in unhealthy conditions, how to take a shit in the open, to throw fire bombs at standing police and the list go's on..

Just a bunch of people putting there bitches in a blunder bust and shooting it into the air.. Then going and damaging city property. Ask Moscow to lend us some water canons.. This place needs cleared up..
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby jkisha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:09 pm

unjonharley wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:
BBadger wrote:Still, with the glut of marginally school-educated people at OWS...

Are the results of your survey published online somewhere? I'd be interested in seeing it.


People interviewed from Occupy Portland could barely hold saliva..

And no one can tell any one what the hell they are there for..

You must be getting all your information from Fox news. As I said to others in this thread go and spend some time with an occupation near you and gain some credibility.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby moonrise » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:10 pm

Wage slavery isn't working anymore. How would things work if everyone were white collar?
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby jkisha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:14 pm

Just remember, the entire civil rights movement started out with people marching and chanting "What do we want? Freedom! When do we want it? NOW!" There was no organization, no set of demands no nothing, except for groups of people gathering and chanting. And from that sprang all of the groups and organizations that we are all familiar with today. Which lead to a black man actually being elected to be the president of the United States.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby unjonharley » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:22 pm

jkisha wrote:You must be getting all your information from Fox news. As I said to others in this thread go and spend some time with an occupation near you and gain some credibility.



I did go to Portland. The odder from the park was unbelievable.. the people I soke to acted more brain damaged than I am..The Police went in and through there asses out. Now the city can go back to work, people making a living..
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby BBadger » Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:57 pm

Ugly Dougly wrote:
BBadger wrote:Still, with the glut of marginally school-educated people at OWS...

Are the results of your survey published online somewhere? I'd be interested in seeing it.


That was actually poorly worded from what I had previously written and changed. It was meant to mean: school-educated (college) in only marginally useful skills.

As for a survey I point to the fact that there are jobs available, but despite the number of "highly educated" people at OWS, full-time employment is about 50% and average annual salary under $50k (half under $25k). This would imply to me that many of the young, debt-ridden, college-educated graduates/students at OWS are not investing in job-useful education.

jkisha wrote:
unjonharley wrote:
Ugly Dougly wrote:Are the results of your survey published online somewhere? I'd be interested in seeing it.


People interviewed from Occupy Portland could barely hold saliva..

And no one can tell any one what the hell they are there for..

You must be getting all your information from Fox news. As I said to others in this thread go and spend some time with an occupation near you and gain some credibility.


Oh, so now any news that conflicts with your world view comes from Fox? I guess you wouldn't know better. But hey, keep up the parroting.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby BBadger » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:17 pm

jkisha wrote:Just remember, the entire civil rights movement started out with people marching and chanting "What do we want? Freedom! When do we want it? NOW!" There was no organization, no set of demands no nothing, except for groups of people gathering and chanting. And from that sprang all of the groups and organizations that we are all familiar with today. Which lead to a black man actually being elected to be the president of the United States.


It's actually pretty funny to see people trying to draw parallels between OWS and previous protester movements like the labor movements, and the civil rights movements. Those parallels are actually quite weak. The key factor that people seem to miss is that these previous movements had a stated purpose. They weren't just a bunch of people hanging around making vague "demands" while squatting in a park near an institution that couldn't care less about the camp-out. Rather these labor and civil rights movements organized themselves around political rally points. They had purpose, they had a plan, they were organized, they had achievable goals.

A more appropriate comparison to OWS is the anti-Vietnam War movement that, while widespread, never really appealed to the American public, and even earned negative connotations as an elitist movement by kids who were out-of-touch with reality and responsibility. It even ended up helping people like Richard Nixon get elected. There is still time for OWS to change its appeal and purpose, but until it does, it's not going anywhere.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby jkisha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:35 pm

BBadger wrote:
jkisha wrote:Just remember, the entire civil rights movement started out with people marching and chanting "What do we want? Freedom! When do we want it? NOW!" There was no organization, no set of demands no nothing, except for groups of people gathering and chanting. And from that sprang all of the groups and organizations that we are all familiar with today. Which lead to a black man actually being elected to be the president of the United States.


It's actually pretty funny to see people trying to draw parallels between OWS and previous protester movements like the labor movements, and the civil rights movements. Those parallels are actually quite weak. The key factor that people seem to miss is that these previous movements had a stated purpose. They weren't just a bunch of people hanging around making vague "demands" while squatting in a park near an institution that couldn't care less about the camp-out. Rather these labor and civil rights movements organized themselves around political rally points. They had purpose, they had a plan, they were organized, they had achievable goals.

A more appropriate comparison to OWS is the anti-Vietnam War movement that, while widespread, never really appealed to the American public, and even earned negative connotations as an elitist movement by kids who were out-of-touch with reality and responsibility. It even ended up helping people like Richard Nixon get elected. There is still time for OWS to change its appeal and purpose, but until it does, it's not going anywhere.

It really seems like you are the only one that doesn't know the purpose of OWS. :shock:
They are the catalyst for change.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby junglesmacks » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:36 pm

Listen to the Badger. Once you get past the off the cuff reaction that you disagree with him and possibly would like to pop him in the nose sometime, you'll see that he actually has his shit pretty damn straight and one fuck of a head on his shoulders. I give the brother major props even if his delivery needs work at times.

jkisha wrote:It really seems like you are the only one that doesn't know the purpose of OWS. :shock:
They are the catalyst for change.


Ideally, yes. Hey.. I'm with you. Unfortunately.. at this point.. all signs point to no. I'll be among the first to say DAMMIT I WISH IT WASN'T SO.. but.. at this point.. it's not looking good.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby jkisha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:37 pm

junglesmacks wrote:Listen to the Badger. Once you get past the off the cuff reaction that you disagree with him and possibly would like to pop him in the nose sometime, you'll see that he actually has his shit pretty damn straight and one fuck of a head on his shoulders. I give the brother major props even if his delivery needs work at times.

Like I said, let him spend a day or a week at an occupation and he'll have a lot more credibility.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby unjonharley » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:51 pm

jkisha wrote:
It really seems like you are the only one that doesn't know the purpose of OWS. :shock:
They are the catalyst for change.


What on earth dose that mean??

THis stuff has gone on for weeks now.. There has been no change and there will be no change.. They have not purpose.. They are NOT 99%.. They do not make up 1%...
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby Bob » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:46 pm

I, for one, am glad org is *very* political -- in the conventional sense. It has to be in order for the event to survive. The org *has* to play well with others -- the agencies, local community members, local businesses, the county in Nevada where it owns land and houses workers in Nevada, and the city & county in California where it operates throughout the year, both those states, the federal government that stewards the event site, and multitudes of legal entities where regional events happen.

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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby BBadger » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:49 pm

jkisha wrote:It really seems like you are the only one that doesn't know the purpose of OWS. :shock:
They are the catalyst for change.


Platitudes. List the change they're "catalysts" for. Come on. Do it. Put your money where your mouth is. What has OWS accomplished? What will they accomplish?

I'm sure the first thing you'll mention is switching from BoA to credit unions. But guess what? That wasn't OWS. They certainly weren't championing that idea. Hell, they aren't even repeating the success by voting with their wallets.

jkisha wrote:Like I said, let him spend a day or a week at an occupation and he'll have a lot more credibility.


Oh, and are you claiming you have? And even if so, suddenly, by just being there you're supposed to have the final word on the situation despite no results from the movement itself? Some kind of "vibe" thing? Give me a break.

I've been to protest rallies like these. People march from place to place yelling, holding signs, getting honked at. Then they disperse or return to their original rally point. La da frickin' da.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby Kinetik V » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:57 pm

Just skimming the thread, if you're not involved, you don't know. It's just how it is.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby BBadger » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:00 pm

Kinetic V wrote:Just skimming the thread, if you're not involved, you don't know. It's just how it is.


EL OH EL, you keep believing that.

Edit: actually, let me run with that:

If those who are not involved cannot know, then the movement has no relevancy to anyone outside the movement. So what is it? A closed group that maintains its own unknown agenda, or a movement representing something more?

I, for one, don't believe there are any deeper designs to OWS. It'll die out as the winter sets in.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby Bob » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:31 pm

They need better bodypaint. And costumes. Maybe they do need "burners".
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby jkisha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:39 pm

Their purpose has been stated and cited many times in the main thread. Do some leg work. Oh, and get your ass out to an occupation. Otherwise, you know not of what you speak, and I'm out of this thread. KeneticV is right.
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby unjonharley » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:27 pm

jkisha wrote:Their purpose has been stated and cited many times in the main thread. Do some leg work. Oh, and get your ass out to an occupation. Otherwise, you know not of what you speak, and I'm out of this thread. KeneticV is right.


Sorry, there purpose has never been stated.. A few people have stepped and spoke up.. They were only speaking for them self..AS far as that go's, to whom were they speaking.. A media mike? Then that would be speaking to unhearing ears..If they were stating a purpose, no one was listening..

Maybe you did not catch that I went to Portland.. Took a few garbage bags to carry some back to my dumpster.. Looked around and talk to about 20 people..NO one could tell me the same purpose.. No one is listening..

But they did a lot of damage to property.. Is that there statement?? Is that there purpose?? No one is listening.. Even if some one was to offer to listen.. They ha ve no one to speak for them.. The sound of one hand clapping..

The best one I heard was.... He was protesting the law against sleeping in the park..
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby Kinetik V » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:43 pm

Zuccotti Park got cleared last night.

IT CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

We don't need a damn tent to make a difference. Nor do we have to freeze our asses off to do it either.

This ain't going to die, this is only the opening Act.

Might I suggest you read this...then we'll go from there.

http://www.fastcompany.com/1795293/occu ... g-time-ago
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Re: Burning Man and Occupy Wall Street

Postby BBadger » Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:34 pm

jkisha wrote:Their purpose has been stated and cited many times in the main thread. Do some leg work. Oh, and get your ass out to an occupation.


If you mean the same "virtually nothing" that is established in the other thread then you're quite right. But hey, I actually didn't expect any better of you to answer the question because you have no answer.

Otherwise, you know not of what you speak, and I'm out of this thread. KeneticV is right.


And so he leaves when the going gets rough. Wouldn't want to stray from the flock in the other thread right? Still, answer my question: have you even visited an occupation yourself?

Kinetic V wrote:Zuccotti Park got cleared last night.

IT CHANGED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.


OWS or the clearing?

We don't need a damn tent to make a difference. Nor do we have to freeze our asses off to do it either.


The clearing is a boon for OWS, so that they get to leave with everyone thinking it was the cops who ended that squat rather than the conditions of the winter.
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

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