Badger and others more info about the damage to the lake bed

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Captain Goddammit » Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:47 am

I'm aware of that, but like everything else, you got it wrong.
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can't argue with a sick mind

Postby swampdog » Sat Aug 07, 2004 2:45 pm

I've spent far more time reading this than I should have. I'm a first timer, and I was surprised to hear that someone thinks BM is doing so poorly wrt the environment when so much I read on the website and especially the eplaya has to do with LNT practices. So I did some research.

Much of the material that I've found on the sbm.org website is silly or irrelevant. For instance, a comment "The methods and cleanup standard used are somewhat arbitrary" is taken out of context - the full quote continues "but were based upon the best knowledge available at the time. The standard was agreed upon prior to substantial data being collected, serves a need, and has resulted in improved compliance by Burning Man and other special use permittees". sbm.org takes that to mean that the methodology is arbitrary and invalid, in the classic right-wing attack-dog approach (note: not claiming they are right wing attack dogs but that they share an approach). (see http://www.stopburningman.org/farschon.html)

I could continue to argue specific points from the web site, but it's futile - these people will just come back to pick smaller and smaller nits.

More interesting is that the goal truly seems to be (as you might guess from the web site name) stopping burning man. They are not taking a topic such as playa serpents and researching for the best info on probable causes and pursuing those causes in priority order, as you might expect if their primary goal was actually protecting the desert, they are out looking for reasons to suggest that BM is not ecologically sound.

The most vocal of the group seems to be allanon2, real name Rex Scates. This individual has demonstrated:
Some history of personal bitterness with Larry Harvey, Michael Michael, and/or other burning man founders.
A history several years ago of enjoying speed driving on the playa, including possibly a trip that conflicted with BM
Some (alleged) history of having a monument removed by BLM.

This evidence leads me to believe that this individual is working out of personal bitterness against BM primarily, possible actual environmental concerns secondarily. (Others in the group seem much more primarily interested in the environment, noticeably Sparks.)

Some of the particular concerns that he raises include:
Damage to the Frog Pond spring. This seems particularly fraudulent, BM seems to have taken a direct interest in improving a manmade spring to better than it was when BM started using it. The total water draw that BM uses from this spring is, per a previous post, a very small fraction of a percent of the total water used from this spring for agriculture - about 3 acre feet per year from a spring that produces 28,000 acre feet per year.

Inadequate cleanup efforts, people bathing in hot springs, playa serpents. I'm putting these together because I think they are all volume related. Per this web site: http://www.aeropac.org/BLMsage.pdf "nearly 150,000 people visited the Black Rock in 2000." I believe that BM goes to extraordinary efforts to prevent/cleanup MOOP, prevent/cleanup fire damage, prevent people from using the hot springs. I sincerely doubt that more than a fraction of the other users are nearly as careful. If you really think that 30,000 people are degrading the playa, you might want to take a look at the other 120,000. And if playa serpents are a real threat, I propose that 30,000 more or less non-vehicular users are much less of a threat than 120,000 people, of whom some measurable percent (oh let's guess and call it 10%) are using the vast open space to drive very fast, whether or not they drive Dodge Neons.

So I'm concluding that these guys are just trying to cause trouble. The only success they've had so far is to piss off people who care very much about Burning Man. It doesn't seem that they are taken seriously by BLM or neighbors to Black Rock.

I feel like a dupe for having gone this far with it, rookie mistake. I now know to just ignore anything they say.
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Postby Fat SAM » Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:11 pm

The Christian in me says "Don't dog this guy." The guy in me who's minoring in English is FREAKING OUT!!! I'm so torn.
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Flowers for ALLANON

Postby Badger » Sat Aug 07, 2004 6:41 pm

The Christian in me says "Don't dog this guy." The guy in me who's minoring in English is FREAKING OUT!!! I'm so torn.


Proverbs seems a good place to start....

Proverbs 1:22
"How long will mockers delight in mockery and fools hate knowledge?


Proverbs 10:21
The lips of the righteous nourish many, but fools die for lack of judgment.


Proverbs 12:23
A prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself, but the heart of fools blurts out folly.


Proverbs 14:8
The wisdom of the prudent is to give thought to their ways, but the folly of fools is deception.
.
Desert dogs drink deep.

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Postby Mithra » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:19 pm

What a fucking waist of time...I want my 10 minutes back!

[dumbassMode]

Rex, you suck, get a fucking life

[/dumbassMode]

I've found that apathy is the best medicine for making morons go away...

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want me to be perfect? ok her eit is

Postby allanon2 » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:43 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:I'm aware of that, but like everything else, you got it wrong.


BLM moto is "The Land of Many Uses"
the joke moto is "the land of many abuses"

i dont live in BLM land and thus only hear that phrase maybe once every 2 years

Captain are you happy?
and if you knew what it was why did you decide to bash me the first time and not just correct me ? or do you liek flaming people just to anoy them and show them how mean you can attempt to be. as you might have seen flaming doesnt drive me away and only helps prove some of my points

ttyl
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Re: can't argue with a sick mind

Postby allanon2 » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:56 pm

swampdog wrote:I've spent far more time reading this than I should


The most vocal of the group seems to be allanon2, real name Rex Scates. This individual has demonstrated:
Some history of personal bitterness with Larry Harvey, Michael Michael, and/or other burning man founders.
A history several years ago of enjoying speed driving on the playa, including possibly a trip that conflicted with BM
Some (alleged) history of having a monument removed by BLM.
.



Michael michael used to be a friedn of mine. we put on a fefw events back in my cacophiny days. Michael Michael also attended some of my events. I defintly hold no amonostiy towards him. About larry? Never really knew him personanly but do have a fefw issues about how much he pays himsel from BM coffers. Other founders/ I have had no face ot face interaction wth any of them. heck I dont thnk I could pick out any from a line up.

nope never had a driving trip that conflicted with BM except maybe one time where their trash fence was not marked and I almost ran into it. that was before it wa a Licensed BLM event and thus does not count much and I forgot tat the event was going on in that certain location. so no direct conflict with BM on that point.
I am a little upset that vehicles can longer travel fast on the Playa and now that boneville salt flats is uch good anymroe it makes land speed ecords basically a thing of the past in the US

about the number of peopel on the playa most of them never drive their cars on the playa. they do things around the lake bed but not really anythign on it
i highly doubt the aeropac figures as the other time i have been to the lake bed on weekends I see little to no people.
the 4x4 groups usualy park near double hotsprings and dont eveen drive on the playa to get to that camp site as the road to soldeiers meadows is much better than the lake bed.
and its not the cars causing most of the erion its rakign the entire BM site with a chain link fence and disturbing the top 6 inches or so of soil that loosens up the surface.
vehcles maybe go down 1-2 inches max and if it has a hard crust they dont even break through that. a hard crust dominates the lake bed in most places beside the are right around the BM event bounderies.

ttyl
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Re: Flowers for ALLANON

Postby Fat SAM » Sat Aug 07, 2004 11:44 pm

Badger wrote:
The Christian in me says "Don't dog this guy." The guy in me who's minoring in English is FREAKING OUT!!! I'm so torn.


Proverbs seems a good place to start....




Proverbs 12:23
A prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself, but the heart of fools blurts out folly.


This one really struck me as being particularly apt. Reminds me of when he was stating his IQ. Spot on.
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Re: Flowers for ALLANON

Postby allanon2 » Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:33 am

Fat SAM wrote:
Badger wrote:
The Christian in me says "Don't dog this guy." The guy in me who's minoring in English is FREAKING OUT!!! I'm so torn.


Proverbs seems a good place to start....




Proverbs 12:23
A prudent man keeps his knowledge to himself, but the heart of fools blurts out folly.


This one really struck me as being particularly apt. Reminds me of when he was stating his IQ. Spot on.



umm i was asked
well sorta as i was called a reatrd and some comment about special olympics

so i just had to se the record straight. and yet again prove people wrong. wonder if a proverb exists that basically says if you dont agree with what the person has to offer bash and flame him
cause thats what 90% of this place does.
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Postby Sensei » Sun Aug 08, 2004 12:48 am

Gosh, you make some good points there allanon2. Not to change the subject or anything, but have you taken the survey in the "Religion and Spirituality at Burningman" thread? It's right next to this one and will only take a few minutes, I promise. Thanks.
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Re: want me to be perfect? ok her eit is

Postby Captain Goddammit » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:31 am

allanon2 wrote: as you might have seen flaming doesnt drive me away and only helps prove some of my points

ttyl
rex


The only point you've ever proven is that flaming doesn't drive you away.

Not that anyone thinks it will. You're just such an amazing example of a crackpot (crack pipe?) that we can't wait to see how far you'll put your foot into your mouth next.
Don't delude yourself that anyone here thinks any more of your illiterate ramblings than that. You're the half-dead mouse that the cat is still playing with.
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Postby Fat SAM » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:58 am

Nice plug, Sensei.
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Re: can't argue with a sick mind

Postby KellY » Sun Aug 08, 2004 1:36 pm

swampdog wrote:I feel like a dupe for having gone this far with it, rookie mistake. I now know to just ignore anything they say.


Hey Swampdog,

Sorry I can't refund your lost time, but cheers for following up on everything. As I said, I'm sure Rex came back to try and bamboozle soon-to-be first time Burners like yourself. And you're quite right, his tactics are exactly like those right-wing propagandists who try and get people focussed on such meaningless minutae that they completely miss the big picture.

[quote= "allanon2"]About larry? Never really knew him personanly but do have a fefw issues about how much he pays himsel from BM coffers.[/quote]

I think that this has more to do with Rex's little vendetta than all the pliya seprens in the hemisphere...If he wants the event shut down, why should he care who gets paid what?

I suspect Rex's real source of ire is that the event isn't the way it was ten years ago. He just a jealous boy who wants his private party back, and if he can't have it, no one should...
"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes
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Re: can't argue with a sick mind

Postby PetsUntilEaten » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:38 pm

allanon2 wrote: its not the cars causing most of the erion its rakign the entire BM site with a chain link fence and disturbing the top 6 inches or so of soil that loosens up the surface.
vehcles maybe go down 1-2 inches max and if it has a hard crust they dont even break through that.


Why would a chain link fence (maybe 50-70 pounds) do more damage that a vehicle tire (one ton over four tires)?
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dust, fence dredging etc....

Postby allanon2 » Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:59 pm

PetsUntilEaten wrote:
allanon2 wrote: its not the cars causing most of the erion its rakign the entire BM site with a chain link fence and disturbing the top 6 inches or so of soil that loosens up the surface.
vehcles maybe go down 1-2 inches max and if it has a hard crust they dont even break through that.


Why would a chain link fence (maybe 50-70 pounds) do more damage that a vehicle tire (one ton over four tires)?


they drag it it over the playa to turn up the top few inches of the lake bed. its purpose its to turn up the top few icnehs to suposibly brign up the trash that is underneath. it is also used to help with burn scars.
tires ride on the top hopefully hard surface of the playa. if you do away from BM site by a few miles ou will see how hard the surface is.
now near the edges its always soft as new sediment is always broguht in during the winter.
the pcitre taken f my vehicle with dust comign off it in 1996 was taken near the north edge and that area alwasy is loos always has been and always will be
but id you go in the center well 1/2 mile from the edge your tires will barely break threw any crust.
at BM they break thrrough the tpo couple and thats why it creates much mreo movable sediemnt
most vehicles on the palay drive ob the roads and create very little movable new dust. yes they create dust cluds but that is beucase any materials that lands on the roads on the playa wont stick and when a vehicle goes over it goes up
from 1986 to 1997 the roads made very little dust when you drove on them
and now the roads have more dust on them which also says that more d\lake sedemnt is beign mvoed around.
and its gettign worse every year
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Re: can't argue with a sick mind

Postby allanon2 » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:07 pm

Sorry I can't refund your lost time, but cheers for following up on everything. As I said, I'm sure Rex came back to try and bamboozle soon-to-be first time Burners like yourself. And you're quite right, his tactics are exactly like those right-wing propagandists who try and get people focussed on such meaningless minutae that they completely miss the big picture.

me a right wing propaganists. wow you guys have no clue about me. but think you do.

[quote= "allanon2"]About larry? Never really knew him personanly but do have a fefw issues about how much he pays himsel from BM coffers.[/quote]

I think that this has more to do with Rex's little vendetta than all the pliya seprens in the hemisphere...If he wants the event shut down, why should he care who gets paid what?

becuase I care about peopel atteneding the evnt. I care if people get lied to. That is one of my goals in life to help fret out lies and expose them. I try to help people. I try to get peopel to see reality through the world of propaganda. heck if I was larry harvey I could see ways to make tons mroe than he does on this event. (I woudlt m\but its easy) but my point is do any of you knwo what he makes off you? he says BM is poor but the LLC paid many of the members large sums of money as artists. (not sure what year the art stipeneds started) they dont have too say hey that was our salery it was a stipened to some unknown person. Why dont they disclose what the lLLC pockets off the event. They charge large amoutn fo money to many peopel that dont make much. I jsut think many peopel would be shocked to see what the LLC makes off the antendess. now if its disclosed thats fine but dont hide behind financial figures and say see this is how it was spent in broad terms and not speciefics why hide somehtign if there is somehtign to hide.


I suspect Rex's real source of ire is that the event isn't the way it was ten years ago. He just a jealous boy who wants his private party back, and if he can't have it, no one should...[/quote]

nah I attended the evnt 1.5 times. each time i was there maybe 1/2 the time. Now that i have seen the real black rock desert for wat it is and away from the crowds I don't want to go in. i would pay for a single day but to stay on the playa with its dust storms, eatign dirt, un clean conditions (all the pee in that dust),noise, etc.. i would rather camp with my friends and enjoy the desert and plaa in the way nature meant it to be enjoyed.

ttyl
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Re: can't argue with a sick mind

Postby PetsUntilEaten » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:46 pm

[quote= "allanon2"] I care if people get lied to. That is one of my goals in life to help fret out lies and expose them. I try to help people. I try to get peopel to see reality through the world of propaganda.

(about money taen in & spent on salaries) . . . why hide somehtign if there is somehtign to hide.

i would pay for a single day but to stay on the playa with its dust storms, eatign dirt, un clean conditions (all the pee in that dust),noise, etc.. i would rather camp with my friends and enjoy the desert and plaa in the way nature meant it to be enjoyed.
[/quote]

Impact: I have no doubts that Burning Man has an impact on the playa.

However, I'm not sure that the lack of land for making land speed records or land sailing done by multiple or even thousands of individuals over a year carries more weight than the 35,000 or more Burning Man attendees use of the playa. 35,000 people want to use the playa together. You want to go with a few friends. Why is your use of the playa "the way nature meant it to be enjoyed"? If 40,000 opposed or could no longer use the playa due to Burning Man you might have something.

Finances : There are many reasons any business doesn't provide detailed records of money spent that don't involve "hiding". BMorg doesn't even have to show anyone the broad stokes but I think its a good idea that they do. Would you like it if your employer made all your petty cash & salary public record? Most people wouldn't if only because a psycho ex or stranger doesn't need to know and its a basic invasion of privacy. I believe they are clear that they finally have a surplus of money & most attendees that know don't have a problem with them being able to make a decent living. Shouldn't they? Don't they deserve something?

Spelling & grammar: We all make mistakes, but to be honest the quanity of your typos make following your writing difficult. You do have time to write long replies so I doubt you couldn't take one minute to cut & paste your responses over from Word - especially when it would help get your point across much more easily. I'm guessing your style is now a badge of pride. I know you are trying to help us - so that's my helpful advice to you.
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Re: can't argue with a sick mind

Postby PetsUntilEaten » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:51 pm

[quote= "allanon2"] I care if people get lied to. That is one of my goals in life to help fret out lies and expose them. I try to help people. I try to get peopel to see reality through the world of propaganda.

(about money taen in & spent on salaries) . . . why hide somehtign if there is somehtign to hide.

i would pay for a single day but to stay on the playa with its dust storms, eatign dirt, un clean conditions (all the pee in that dust),noise, etc.. i would rather camp with my friends and enjoy the desert and plaa in the way nature meant it to be enjoyed.
[/quote]

Impact: I have no doubts that Burning Man has an impact on the playa.

However, I'm not sure that the lack of land for making land speed records or land sailing done by multiple or even thousands of individuals over a year carries more weight than the 35,000 or more Burning Man attendees use of the playa. 35,000 people want to use the playa together. You want to go with a few friends. Why is your use of the playa "the way nature meant it to be enjoyed"? If 40,000 opposed or could no longer use the playa due to Burning Man you might have something.

Finances : There are many reasons any business doesn't provide detailed records of money spent that don't involve "hiding". BMorg doesn't even have to show anyone the broad stokes but I think its a good idea that they do. Would you like it if your employer made all your petty cash & salary public record? Most people wouldn't if only because a psycho ex or stranger doesn't need to know and its a basic invasion of privacy. I believe they are clear that they finally have a surplus of money & most attendees that know don't have a problem with them being able to make a decent living. Shouldn't they? Don't they deserve something?

Spelling & grammar: We all make mistakes, but to be honest the quanity of your typos make following your writing difficult. You do have time to write long replies so I doubt you couldn't take one minute to cut & paste your responses over from Word - especially when it would help get your point across much more easily. I'm guessing your style is now a badge of pride. I know you are trying to help us - so that's my helpful advice to you.
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Postby Tancorix » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:45 pm

The part about raking the playa with the fence sounds good, but I don't know if it will pass scientific muster. I'll leave that argument for others with more knowledge on the subject of soils (like Badger). Again it does sound interesting and I'd love to hear other opinions on the subject.

As for what Larry Harvey makes, who really gives a damn? I don't. And who are you to be the arbitrator of someone's salary or pay scales? It's not your place, and no matter how much you rant about LH's pay, you are powerless to do anything about it. The only group that has real power to curb any compensation that might be considered excessive is the members of the LLC themselves. That group is fixed, you are not a member of it, and therefore in regards to compensation issues..you're beyond whipping a dead horse. There's not even bones or DNA left. Pick another issue and quit wasting your time on moving the unmovable object.

Besides focusing on the negatives of BM, have you considered the positives the event brings? Besides the economic impact and other points of view that you could dispute, there is one thing you can't argue. Anyone that makes the journey out there walks away changed. The whole area has a magical quality about it that influences anyone who comes into contact with it. Until BM I had never heard of the Black Rock Desert. But thanks to BM I have, and now I actively lobby Congress to help protect it and to get Midwestern congressional leaders to pay attention to BLM issues and Black Rock desert related items that pass through. The event has created a lot of others like me who are willing to fight for the place. There are some who would go beyond booting BM out of there and forever ban you or groups you were associated with from running your cars across it ever again. They would prevent you from ever crossing over the fragile edge just to get on the playa as that is where more moisture is at and the ground is "more fragile". What would you do then Rex? You shut down BM, and then what's next? Without a 35,000 person target looming these opponents will look at the groups you used to belong to and they will be next. People like me who have been to BM and fell in love with the place will be the ones who protect your right to drive out there. We are the next generation of Black Rock defenders. Keep that in mind as you make your rants. We are all working towards the same goal even if we're taking different paths to get there. BM, running cars at WOT across the flats, launching rockets, it can and should be accomodated out there.

/soapbox /rant /free association mode.
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Re: can't argue with a sick mind

Postby Captain Goddammit » Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:35 pm

allanon2 wrote:me a right wing propaganists. wow you guys have no clue about me. but think you do.



Hey Wrecks... he said your tactics were similar to the ones right-wing propagandists use, not that you are one.

Keep opening mouth, keep inserting feet... this is entertaining. Give us more!
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more questions

Postby PetsUntilEaten » Sun Aug 08, 2004 10:56 pm

[quote= "allanon2"] I care if people get lied to. That is one of my goals in life to help fret out lies and expose them. I try to help people. I try to get peopel to see reality through the world of propaganda.

(about money taen in & spent on salaries) . . . why hide somehtign if there is somehtign to hide.

i would pay for a single day but to stay on the playa with its dust storms, eatign dirt, un clean conditions (all the pee in that dust),noise, etc.. i would rather camp with my friends and enjoy the desert and plaa in the way nature meant it to be enjoyed.
[/quote]

Impact: I have no doubts that Burning Man has an impact on the playa.

However, I'm not sure that the lack of land for making land speed records or land sailing done by multiple or even thousands of individuals over a year carries more weight than the 35,000 or more Burning Man attendees use of the playa. 35,000 people want to use the playa together. You want to go with a few friends. Why is your use of the playa "the way nature meant it to be enjoyed"? If 40,000 opposed or could no longer use the playa due to Burning Man you might have something.

Finances : There are many reasons any business doesn't provide detailed records of money spent that don't involve "hiding". BMorg doesn't even have to show anyone the broad stokes but I think its a good idea that they do. Would you like it if your employer made all your petty cash & salary public record? Most people wouldn't if only because a psycho ex or stranger doesn't need to know and its a basic invasion of privacy. I believe they are clear that they finally have a surplus of money & most attendees that know don't have a problem with them being able to make a decent living. Shouldn't they? Don't they deserve something?

Spelling & grammar: We all make mistakes, but to be honest the quanity of your typos make following your writing difficult. You do have time to write long replies so I doubt you couldn't take one minute to cut & paste your responses over from Word - especially when it would help get your point across much more easily. I'm guessing your style is now a badge of pride. I know you are trying to help us - so that's my helpful advice to you.
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Re: can't argue with a sick mind

Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Aug 09, 2004 12:21 am

[quote= "allanon2"]
i would pay for a single day but to stay on the playa with its dust storms, eatign dirt, un clean conditions (all the pee in that dust),noise, etc.. i would rather camp with my friends and enjoy the desert and plaa in the way nature meant it to be enjoyed.
[/quote]

The last thing you should worry about is the pee, but hey the arsenic isn't too bad either.

Don't worry Allanon someday the playa is going to be closed off to everyone including combustible engines and you won't have too worry about making those big circular devits in the dirt too. That should get you closer to nature the way it was intended!

A II Z
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wow a dedcent reason why BM is ok

Postby allanon2 » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:18 am

Impact: I have no doubts that Burning Man has an impact on the playa.

However, I'm not sure that the lack of land for making land speed records or land sailing done by multiple or even thousands of individuals over a year carries more weight than the 35,000 or more Burning Man attendees use of the playa. 35,000 people want to use the playa together. You want to go with a few friends. Why is your use of the playa "the way nature meant it to be enjoyed"? If 40,000 opposed or could no longer use the playa due to Burning Man you might have something.

Finances : There are many reasons any business doesn't provide detailed records of money spent that don't involve "hiding". BMorg doesn't even have to show anyone the broad stokes but I think its a good idea that they do. Would you like it if your employer made all your petty cash & salary public record? Most people wouldn't if only because a psycho ex or stranger doesn't need to know and its a basic invasion of privacy. I believe they are clear that they finally have a surplus of money & most attendees that know don't have a problem with them being able to make a decent living. Shouldn't they? Don't they deserve something?

Spelling & grammar: We all make mistakes, but to be honest the quanity of your typos make following your writing difficult. You do have time to write long replies so I doubt you couldn't take one minute to cut & paste your responses over from Word - especially when it would help get your point across much more easily. I'm guessing your style is now a badge of pride. I know you are trying to help us - so that's my helpful advice to you.[/quote]

thnaks and yes I know. and also if i eddited my posts here in word peopel would complain that I am a sock using thi log in.


and this si the first reasonable argument why the event is good.
I agree if more peopel thought the way you did I wouldnt have as much of a issue with the event. Yes 30000 cause damage
yes people make money
etc....

the problem is BMORg says they do no damage. in fact thye say they make it betetr well they did up until maybe this year or last year.
says they are poor
etc....

but yes i agree and if peopel looked at both sides and said well its betetr than any other place as less damage is caused n the lake bed i would probably be fine with the event
but BM is full of peopel that cant see the truth and I try to brign the truth

thnak you for the nice post and showing anouther way to say the truth

ttyl
rex
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tancorix thank you

Postby allanon2 » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:23 am

Tancorix wrote:The part about raking the playa with the fence sounds good, but I don't know if it will pass scientific muster. I'll leave that argument for others with more knowledge on the subject of soils (like Badger). Again it does sound interesting and I'd love to hear other opinions on the subject.

As for what Larry Harvey makes, who really gives a damn? I don't. And who are you to be the arbitrator of someone's salary or pay scales? It's not your place, and no matter how much you rant about LH's pay, you are powerless to do anything about it. The only group that has real power to curb any compensation that might be considered excessive is the members of the LLC themselves. That group is fixed, you are not a member of it, and therefore in regards to compensation issues..you're beyond whipping a dead horse. There's not even bones or DNA left. Pick another issue and quit wasting your time on moving the unmovable object.

Besides focusing on the negatives of BM, have you considered the positives the event brings? Besides the economic impact and other points of view that you could dispute, there is one thing you can't argue. Anyone that makes the journey out there walks away changed. The whole area has a magical quality about it that influences anyone who comes into contact with it. Until BM I had never heard of the Black Rock Desert. But thanks to BM I have, and now I actively lobby Congress to help protect it and to get Midwestern congressional leaders to pay attention to BLM issues and Black Rock desert related items that pass through. The event has created a lot of others like me who are willing to fight for the place. There are some who would go beyond booting BM out of there and forever ban you or groups you were associated with from running your cars across it ever again. They would prevent you from ever crossing over the fragile edge just to get on the playa as that is where more moisture is at and the ground is "more fragile". What would you do then Rex? You shut down BM, and then what's next? Without a 35,000 person target looming these opponents will look at the groups you used to belong to and they will be next. People like me who have been to BM and fell in love with the place will be the ones who protect your right to drive out there. We are the next generation of Black Rock defenders. Keep that in mind as you make your rants. We are all working towards the same goal even if we're taking different paths to get there. BM, running cars at WOT across the flats, launching rockets, it can and should be accomodated out there.

/soapbox /rant /free association mode.



i also agree with much of what you say
you can see both sides and the cost benefit analysis
I am fine with this also.
see my other post right above this one for reasons
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Postby TheJudge » Mon Aug 09, 2004 9:59 am

Tancorix wrote:Besides focusing on the negatives of BM, have you considered the positives the event brings? Besides the economic impact and other points of view that you could dispute, there is one thing you can't argue. Anyone that makes the journey out there walks away changed. The whole area has a magical quality about it that influences anyone who comes into contact with it. Until BM I had never heard of the Black Rock Desert. But thanks to BM I have, and now I actively lobby Congress to help protect it and to get Midwestern congressional leaders to pay attention to BLM issues and Black Rock desert related items that pass through. The event has created a lot of others like me who are willing to fight for the place. There are some who would go beyond booting BM out of there and forever ban you or groups you were associated with from running your cars across it ever again. They would prevent you from ever crossing over the fragile edge just to get on the playa as that is where more moisture is at and the ground is "more fragile". What would you do then Rex? You shut down BM, and then what's next? Without a 35,000 person target looming these opponents will look at the groups you used to belong to and they will be next. People like me who have been to BM and fell in love with the place will be the ones who protect your right to drive out there. We are the next generation of Black Rock defenders. Keep that in mind as you make your rants. We are all working towards the same goal even if we're taking different paths to get there. BM, running cars at WOT across the flats, launching rockets, it can and should be accomodated out there.


I would have just said, "Rex, you are an asshat. Go away." but you Tancorix...Damn. That was...beautiful.

I hope to see some of you at the Eplaya Meet and Greet. I owe several of you some drinks.
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Postby Bob A » Mon Aug 09, 2004 8:58 pm

Why do people keep feeding this guy.

1. The playa serpents have been around long before burningman. They have been looked at since the 50's. As mentioned in an open letter from the org when the stop burning man people did their thing here. So how could burning man cause them? Time Travel?

2. The org has a surplus? I guess you don't read the JRS and other letters that are on the site. Back in April or May, I think, It was mentioned they had cut the budget so close when they delayed ticket sales they had to hold one of the org members pay check until the ticket sales started coming in. They ran down to $0.00 as they do most years. They have always dreamed of a war chest but things come up to bite them. This year it was the whole staging ranch problem.

Oh and before you reply, no I don’t feel like providing cites read the cite yourself. and I will not be replying to any replies. Life is to short the playa is only 20 days away, I got better things then argue this age old crap.

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Postby Captain Goddammit » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:05 pm

Bob A wrote:Why do people keep feeding this guy.


Because he's such an amazing lunatic it's just too much fun to see what ridiculous crap he'll spout next....
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Postby DVD Burner » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:10 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
Bob A wrote:Why do people keep feeding this guy.


Because he's such an amazing lunatic it's just too much fun to see what ridiculous crap he'll spout next....



I told ya! :lol:
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Postby allanon2 » Mon Aug 09, 2004 11:42 pm

Bob A wrote:Why do people keep feeding this guy.

1. The playa serpents have been around long before burningman. They have been looked at since the 50's. As mentioned in an open letter from the org when the stop burning man people did their thing here. So how could burning man cause them? Time Travel?

umm blm has neevr done a study and yes they existed in a lvery small area and now they are everwhere
do you not read what i posted earier or look at the website.

2. The org has a surplus? I guess you don't read the JRS and other letters that are on the site. Back in April or May, I think, It was mentioned they had cut the budget so close when they delayed ticket sales they had to hold one of the org members pay check until the ticket sales started coming in. They ran down to $0.00 as they do most years. They have always dreamed of a war chest but things come up to bite them. This year it was the whole staging ranch problem.


they have no money after saleries are paid. saleries to the LLC also. plus artisit stipends. an i knwo the first big artist stipedns went to llc members.

Oh and before you reply, no I don’t feel like providing cites read the cite yourself. and I will not be replying to any replies. Life is to short the playa is only 20 days away, I got better things then argue this age old crap.


nice additude. and very one sided

Bob A
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Tue Aug 10, 2004 6:29 am

allanon2 wrote: "neevr" "lvery" "everwhere"
"earier"

"saleries" "artisit stipends" "an i knwo"
"additude"


AAAHHHhaahhaahahaha.... you're killin' me...
More, more!
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