Badger and others more info about the damage to the lake bed

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Postby Das Bus » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:53 am

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Re: wow someone that looked at both sides and asked a real q

Postby dragonfly Jafe » Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:06 am

[quote="allanon2
the serpents aka dunes are cuased by loose dirt brough up from the lake bed and deposited by wind. that is what causes dunes. before BM their was very little dust disturbance i.e. the entire lake bed was very compacted since BM has existed the whole lake bed has gotten softer and the loose groudn is propbaly what is causing the dune to devlop. people will say that dunes have existed before but they were very small and isolated they are everywhere now. [/quote]

Maybe your terms are loose, but if the ENTIRE lake bed is now softer, and Playa Serpents are common and growing in non-BM areas, might this not suggest there is a bigger issue causing this than BM? Maybe there is a large-scale climatic change or some other mechanism at work. How can you link the (small) BM area with changes to the ENTIRE lake bed? Are you saying that a 2 mile square area launches enough dust into the air to create Playa Serpents over hundreds of square miles? (the ENTIRE lake bed!)

Furthermore, it is my understanding that BM is now held in the same place year-after-year so that the long term effects can be studied. Unless you are suggesting that the BLM is incapable of such a study, or that they are conspiring with BM to hide the truth, you have some explaining to do before you are going to come close to making me think.

For starters, try showing that

1) before BM there were fewer dunes (over an extended period)

-and that-

2) the Playa Serpents are growing in relation to the BM site (say downwind) and not growing distant from the BM site.

ttfn! Jafe
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Re: wow someone that looked at both sides and asked a real q

Postby dragonfly Jafe » Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:09 am

[quote="allanon2
the serpents aka dunes are cuased by loose dirt brough up from the lake bed and deposited by wind. that is what causes dunes. before BM their was very little dust disturbance i.e. the entire lake bed was very compacted since BM has existed the whole lake bed has gotten softer and the loose groudn is propbaly what is causing the dune to devlop. people will say that dunes have existed before but they were very small and isolated they are everywhere now. [/quote]

Maybe your terms are loose, but if the ENTIRE lake bed is now softer, and Playa Serpents are common and growing in non-BM areas, might this not suggest there is a bigger issue causing this than BM? Maybe there is a large-scale climatic change or some other mechanism at work. How can you link the (small) BM area with changes to the ENTIRE lake bed? Are you saying that a 2 mile square area launches enough dust into the air to create Playa Serpents over hundreds of square miles? (the ENTIRE lake bed!)

Furthermore, it is my understanding that BM is now held in the same place year-after-year so that the long term effects can be studied. Unless you are suggesting that the BLM is incapable of such a study, or that they are conspiring with BM to hide the truth, you have some explaining to do before you are going to come close to making me think.

For starters, try showing that

1) before BM there were fewer dunes (over an extended period)

-and that-

2) the Playa Serpents are growing in relation to the BM site (say downwind) and not growing distant from the BM site.

ttfn! Jafe
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Re: wow someone that looked at both sides and asked a real q

Postby dragonfly Jafe » Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:14 am

[quote="allanon2
the serpents aka dunes are cuased by loose dirt brough up from the lake bed and deposited by wind. that is what causes dunes. before BM their was very little dust disturbance i.e. the entire lake bed was very compacted since BM has existed the whole lake bed has gotten softer and the loose groudn is propbaly what is causing the dune to devlop. people will say that dunes have existed before but they were very small and isolated they are everywhere now. [/quote]

Maybe your terms are loose, but if the ENTIRE lake bed is now softer, and Playa Serpents are common and growing in non-BM areas, might this not suggest there is a bigger issue causing this than BM? Maybe there is a large-scale climatic change or some other mechanism at work. How can you link the (small) BM area with changes to the ENTIRE lake bed? Are you saying that a 2 mile square area launches enough dust into the air to create Playa Serpents over hundreds of square miles? (the ENTIRE lake bed!)

Furthermore, it is my understanding that BM is now held in the same place year-after-year so that the long term effects can be studied. Unless you are suggesting that the BLM is incapable of such a study, or that they are conspiring with BM to hide the truth, you have some explaining to do before you are going to come close to making me think.

For starters, try showing that

1) before BM there were fewer dunes (over an extended period)

-and that-

2) the Playa Serpents are growing in relation to the BM site (say downwind) and not growing distant from the BM site.

ttfn! Jafe
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Postby playasnake » Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:29 am

did someone say playa serpent?
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Postby Badger » Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:43 am

Serpentine dunes (aka small, modified barchan dunes).

Occur anywhere you have large, flat, non-vegetated areas of land prone to wind and periods of mild to non-existent rain fall (i.e. deserts). To suggest that serpentine dunes are anomolous to a region such as Lahanton lake bed (aka playa) is to suggest that wildflowers in Yosemite are a rarity.

But then I gave up on the OP's capacity to exhibit logic, fact, and objectivity several months back.

FYI: a general idea of dune formation http://www.nps.gov/grsa/resources/barchan.htm[/i]
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Postby allanon2 » Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:35 pm

Badger wrote:Serpentine dunes (aka small, modified barchan dunes).

Occur anywhere you have large, flat, non-vegetated areas of land prone to wind and periods of mild to non-existent rain fall (i.e. deserts). To suggest that serpentine dunes are anomolous to a region such as Lahanton lake bed (aka playa) is to suggest that wildflowers in Yosemite are a rarity.


Badger you shoudl know better. The pliya surface is hardened up every year durign the wet period. That is why it has a crust.
In 1997 there were no to very littl dunes that is why Thurst SSC was able to brerak the sound barrier. they did extensive mappign n the area and it went through what is now the area thata has the most dunes. downwind (if you can call it down wind as the wind chnages some) of BM.
the pliya surface has always had a few dunes but it is not a DESESRT its a dried lake bed that gets repenished every year. do a getailed GPS study and you mgith see if our GPS is good enough that the B area is a depreseion. heck i knwo look as pictures in the winter when it has water and you will see that the BM area is lower than the surounding area i.e. it has more water in it.
BLM is doign a mappign study of the pliya serpents that they are now callign dunes but they have not released the data on it
they did have a meeting about them and a few other new occeurances a few weeks ago. I was invited but a 8 hour(each way) drive for a 2-3 hour meeting was a little much.
so yes badger i am saying that the lake bed didnt have the dunes that tey have now
and it does not take much disturance to cause dunes to occur all over the lake bed.
in other parts of the lake bed the surface is hard but it has dunes. no way that the material that makes up the dune came form that area. the only arera of disturbance on the lake bed is the roads (which dont sink down therefor cant cause much dirt to contribute to the dunes) and BM which drags the entre area to about 6 or so inches down and thus can make a massive amoutn of dirt abel to eb blow in the wind.
before BM (ask the local to verify) massive dust storms were not common on the lake bed and now espcialy afer a BM event they are horrible. and getting worse.

ttyl
rex




But then I gave up on the OP's capacity to exhibit logic, fact, and objectivity several months back.

FYI: a general idea of dune formation http://www.nps.gov/grsa/resources/barchan.htm[/i]
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badger its a lake bed not a desert. It used to be firm

Postby allanon2 » Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:36 pm

Badger wrote:Serpentine dunes (aka small, modified barchan dunes).

Occur anywhere you have large, flat, non-vegetated areas of land prone to wind and periods of mild to non-existent rain fall (i.e. deserts). To suggest that serpentine dunes are anomolous to a region such as Lahanton lake bed (aka playa) is to suggest that wildflowers in Yosemite are a rarity.


Badger you shoudl know better. The pliya surface is hardened up every year durign the wet period. That is why it has a crust.
In 1997 there were no to very littl dunes that is why Thurst SSC was able to brerak the sound barrier. they did extensive mappign n the area and it went through what is now the area thata has the most dunes. downwind (if you can call it down wind as the wind chnages some) of BM.
the pliya surface has always had a few dunes but it is not a DESESRT its a dried lake bed that gets repenished every year. do a getailed GPS study and you mgith see if our GPS is good enough that the B area is a depreseion. heck i knwo look as pictures in the winter when it has water and you will see that the BM area is lower than the surounding area i.e. it has more water in it.
BLM is doign a mappign study of the pliya serpents that they are now callign dunes but they have not released the data on it
they did have a meeting about them and a few other new occeurances a few weeks ago. I was invited but a 8 hour(each way) drive for a 2-3 hour meeting was a little much.
so yes badger i am saying that the lake bed didnt have the dunes that tey have now
and it does not take much disturance to cause dunes to occur all over the lake bed.
in other parts of the lake bed the surface is hard but it has dunes. no way that the material that makes up the dune came form that area. the only arera of disturbance on the lake bed is the roads (which dont sink down therefor cant cause much dirt to contribute to the dunes) and BM which drags the entre area to about 6 or so inches down and thus can make a massive amoutn of dirt abel to eb blow in the wind.
before BM (ask the local to verify) massive dust storms were not common on the lake bed and now espcialy afer a BM event they are horrible. and getting worse.

ttyl
rex




But then I gave up on the OP's capacity to exhibit logic, fact, and objectivity several months back.

FYI: a general idea of dune formation http://www.nps.gov/grsa/resources/barchan.htm[/i]
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Re: wow someone that looked at both sides and asked a real q

Postby allanon2 » Fri Aug 06, 2004 12:46 pm

dragonfly Jafe wrote:[quote="allanon2
the serpents aka dunes are cuased by loose dirt brough up from the lake bed and deposited by wind. that is what causes dunes. before BM their was very little dust disturbance i.e. the entire lake bed was very compacted since BM has existed the whole lake bed has gotten softer and the loose groudn is propbaly what is causing the dune to devlop. people will say that dunes have existed before but they were very small and isolated they are everywhere now.


Maybe your terms are loose, but if the ENTIRE lake bed is now softer, and Playa Serpents are common and growing in non-BM areas, might this not suggest there is a bigger issue causing this than BM?


The entire lake bed is nto now loose it ahs a hard crust under the top layer. And yes a small area can create enogu dust to cause dunes to develop everywhere ont he lake bed. most are down wind but sometimes wind goes tward Gerlach.
In 1997 Thrust SSC broke the soudn barrier in a vehicle and thye started a little towards gerlach and went through what is now BM site and beyond. they had a perfectly flat runnway to drive on read up on them and thta was one of the reason why they picked the lake bed plus craig bredwell in hiw ehicle was their and it was a neat challenege.
so yes many more exit now that in the past.
BLM is mapping the area but as the study is still in progress they wont relase the data. They did have a meeting about this a few weeks ago. I was nto able to attend as it was a 8 hour drive each way and a little much for a 2-3 hour meeting where the dunes aka pliya serenpents were discussed alogn with other things.
BLM does agree theat there are more that is why they have a relase of info on theit website.
http://www.nv.blm.gov/Winnemucca/recreation/default.htm
read at bottom of page for soem info on the dune (they dont admit where they coem from openly but others inside BLm do) and some info on thrust SSC. The dune part f the website is last updated 2 years ago and the dunes have gotten mucg worse since then. ask the land sailers



Maybe there is a large-scale climatic change or some other mechanism at work. How can you link the (small) BM area with changes to the ENTIRE lake bed? Are you saying that a 2 mile square area launches enough dust into the air to create Playa Serpents over hundreds of square miles? (the ENTIRE lake bed!)

Furthermore, it is my understanding that BM is now held in the same place year-after-year so that the long term effects can be studied. Unless you are suggesting that the BLM is incapable of such a study, or that they are conspiring with BM to hide the truth, you have some explaining to do before you are going to come close to making me think.

For starters, try showing that

1) before BM there were fewer dunes (over an extended period)

-and that-

2) the Playa Serpents are growing in relation to the BM site (say downwind) and not growing distant from the BM site.

ttfn! Jafe[/quote]
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Postby blyslv » Fri Aug 06, 2004 1:24 pm

Playa serpents were meant to be man-handled.

Mr. R-t-W, could you please explain what the hell your sig line means? I don't understand the connection between testicular lines and cups of tea, but that is because I lack a 150-160 IQ.
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Hey Einstein

Postby gilmore » Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:30 pm

.
allanon2,

Do you think that the dunes could have been created by bad spellers driving shitbox Dodges on the "pliya"????

As shown at http://www.baneon.org/members/scates/rex.html

Gilmore
P.S. You forgot the decimal point. IQ is 15.0 - 16.0. . . that's more like like eh, Sparky

P.P.S. You consider Autolite Spark Plugs and putting 'Turbo' & '3.0L V-6 OHC' Stickers on that junk heap "Modifications" . . . LOSER DeLuxe
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Postby Zona_the_stona » Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:41 pm

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stiring up some dust.. hahaha

(carry on..)
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Postby Desi Arnaz » Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:49 pm

This guy is so difficult to read that I be missing his point...but is his main argument against the dunes that it makes the playa a bad place for the land speed people? Does he want to kick out 30K of us so a few people can drive real fast out there?...
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Postby Tancorix » Fri Aug 06, 2004 2:50 pm

Image

Wrongness Factor 8.7
Those yellow wheels look downright hideous.
And where's the wing? You can't run fast without a humongous wing on the back. And no NOS stickers?

An honorary POS membership candidate if there ever was one.
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umm i spent 9,000 on it new

Postby allanon2 » Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:01 pm

got 45 mog on freeway
ran 15.3 at drag strip

wings dont do anything
to cheap to but rear rims that dont add much
and it was commuter.

there we go again.
lets bash someone if we have nothign else to say.
kinda hard to argue against somone who offers facts that cant be argued is it?

all i care is to get the word out and that i have done thousands of times
hopefull people qill questoins things iek they used to.
gerlach residents and others gave up last year trign to fight BM
thats one of the main reasons i brought out the fight.
\hopefully the peopel that are locally effected will brign back the arguments and attemt to get BLM to listen.
a few months ago when our website go press locals were staring to get invlved again but then the powerplant happened and now they have shifted
when the peopel that are turely effected get ready agan i will be around to help them with info
until then my job is to spread the word and get peopel to think
i personany dont care about most of you here as you are so one minded its insane

i would lvoe to take a pole that asks how many of you think bush shoudl get kicked out
and then compare that to your registerd party.
is it really a vote aaginst bush or a vote agaainst a repulbican.
do you always listenign to everythign your party says?
to what BMORG says?
if michael moores video was against clinto would you still agree?
i for oen think for myselfs and listen to what everyoen says and make my own opinion but many of you if is against BM ou can only defend BM and not be open to thinkign and say yeah some damage is ebing cuased but hey there is 30,000 of us using the pliya a litttle damage is ok.
which is fine with me also but peopel says umm no dmaage isi beign done at all in fact we are makign the place a betetr cleaner place.

umm no
no matter what peple say I will be around. i just want peopel to think forthemselves
and not to propaganda.

rex




Tancorix wrote:Image

Wrongness Factor 8.7
Those yellow wheels look downright hideous.
And where's the wing? You can't run fast without a humongous wing on the back. And no NOS stickers?

An honorary POS membership candidate if there ever was one.
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Postby Rob the Wop » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:45 pm

blyslv wrote:Playa serpents were meant to be man-handled.

Mr. R-t-W, could you please explain what the hell your sig line means? I don't understand the connection between testicular lines and cups of tea, but that is because I lack a 150-160 IQ.


'Teabagging' is the secret Internet ninja art of resting your testicles against another's object. Usually a keyboard or mouse, but can be anything. Like the cup of tea you were drinking and came back to find curly black hairs on your earl grey teabag. Thereby having your teabag teabagged.

And proving Rob's First Law of Testicle Thermodynamics.-
"Any hot liquid sufficiently cooled to prevent scalding, yet insufficiently watched to prevent testicle dipping, should be used as a genital bath during working hours."
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:07 pm

Holy crap, sock-puppet agitator dude...
You don't want us to walk around, ride our bikes, very slowly cruise our "mutant vehicles" (which, in most cases, have much more talent and skill applied to them than your Neon) on the playa, that's spelled p-l-a-y-a, as pointed out earlier yet missed by you... but you want to haul ass across it in your shit-pile, uh, Neon and raise more dust than any of us.

By the way, I'm a racer too, drag racing, not whatever you do with that thing, and I have sympathy for racers looking for a place to run. (And I'm particularly disgusted with your inclusion of adding stickers that lie about what's in your car as "modifications")
You just want us off the playa so you can beat it up yourself.

But hey, if you come out to Burning Man, look me up... I'll give you some stickers that will really make that wrong-wheel-drive crapcan go fast.
And I'll give you a copy of "Hooked on Phonics" to take home and enjoy.
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Postby Tancorix » Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:23 pm

It's time to end the divide and conquer strategy. http://eplaya.burningman.com/viewtopic.php?p=69751#69751.
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Postby TheJudge » Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:04 pm

Here's to hoping that playa serpents like neons with terrible 1/4 mile times.
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Postby TheJudge » Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:16 am

Hey while I'm at it, Rex, (allanon2, whatever) why dont you explain what you have against the event?

I read Marian's comments about how you were ordered to remove a monument you had installed illegally on BLM land. Does your hatred for the event really stem from sour grapes?

Surly someone with allegedly a 150 IQ should have more intellect that this.
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Re: wow someone that looked at both sides and asked a real q

Postby BAS » Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:21 am

Well, let's see if I have figured out how to make this whole quoting thing work correctly.... :?

allanon2 wrote:
BAS wrote:
still has anyone tried to dispute the 2 things i started this message with? t\1. frog pond is a wetland. (BMORG and the earth guardians call it that)

2. the pliya serpents that might be caused by BM are now called dunes which means BLM thinks they might be there for along time.
and no they were not in the locations they are now. think back to 1997 and the breakign of the sound barrier by Thrust SSC they did a detailed study of the pliya and hey didnt exist.



Well, wrt #1, neither the BMORG nor the Earth Guardians are the BLM. The BMORG could call the Frog Pond a redwood forest and that would not make it one.

The point is that if frog pond is a wetland it would probaably make frog pond not be able too be used for water source for dust abatment. That would put the evnt into depordy. There were issues aroudn this about 4 years ago or so. Also frog ponds evnirment has chnage dramticly since tis been used as a water source. peopel here said it was not a wetland and people could not accept my reasosn that it is. and now Earthguardians and BMORG call it a wetland. BLM wont classify it.



How are you defining "wetlands"? What I am saying is that it makes little if any difference what the BMORG and/or Earthguardians call it. IIRC, the Frog Pond isn't even a naturally occuring pond (I seem to recall that it was created as part of a failed real estate development), and so, by all rights, should not even be there.


As for #2, I am not really certain what point you are trying to make. I even went back to your original post on this thread. I will admit to not having seen the serpents/dunes, but it sounds to me like they could be something which occurs due to weather conditions preceeding the event. How do you think that Burning Man is creating dunes? What is the mechanism? Are you saying that they are concentrated where Burning Man takes place?


the serpents aka dunes are cuased by loose dirt brough up from the lake bed and deposited by wind. that is what causes dunes. before BM their was very little dust disturbance i.e. the entire lake bed was very compacted since BM has existed the whole lake bed has gotten softer and the loose groudn is propbaly what is causing the dune to devlop. people will say that dunes have existed before but they were very small and isolated they are everywhere now. Second BMORG says the land sailers liek to sail where BM is thats becuase they rest of the lake bed where they used to be able to go is nto safe. the BM site is the only place without dunes becuae DPW scrapes the pilya there. Just ask a dune sailor they can go on and on for hours about this. one of the best land sialign palces in the wolrd has been destroyed.

thank you for reading both sides and thinkign for yourself\
ttyl
rex



So, are you claiming that all of the playa serpants' dust comes from the Burning Man area? Does the volume of dust which makes up the serpants actually match the volume of the depression (if any) of the site of Burning Man? These are just a couple questions which occurred to me while reading this discussion.


BTW, what effects would the power plant have on the playa, and would they be worse than any effects Burning Man might be having? I am just curious as to your opinion on this topic.
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Do things that have never been done."
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Postby Badger » Sat Aug 07, 2004 4:13 am

Must.....resist.....

.....not.....fair......

Must, stop.
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nope as I told maid marion thats all slander (long)

Postby allanon2 » Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:52 am

TheJudge wrote:Hey while I'm at it, Rex, (allanon2, whatever) why dont you explain what you have against the event?

I read Marian's comments about how you were ordered to remove a monument you had installed illegally on BLM land. Does your hatred for the event really stem from sour grapes?

Surly someone with allegedly a 150 IQ should have more intellect that this.


the monument was moved by me but not placed in its original location by me.
I dont really care about that at all.
it has othign to do with BLM and in fact only BLM knew anythign about that which proves to me that BMORG has a inside person with BLM as that was a private matter that had no public discloer.
But this only enforces my beleif that BLM does not really care anything but money and abuse. Have you ever heard what BLM stands for? (Bureau of Land of Many Abuses)


Here is my official repsonse to main marion,
I have inormend BMORG that what they said
here I will just and paste my reponse to Maid Marion and BMORG

is that the repsonse from BMORG LLC?

espeiacly the acusations that the pictures were doctored and or staged? (north tree fire/water truck, the hot springs pictures, etc...)

think carefully before you answer this question. remember that I was a certified BLM volunteer doing spring counts for BLM when the pictures were taken. I had a log book, it was sent to BLM, i have dates time stamps on the pictures, and many more pictures that you have not seen.

so do you want to chnage your answer?

ttyl
rex

Marian <marian@burningman.com> wrote:
i read the entire email. I am sorry you feel the response to your
accusations are slander. I don't see it the same way.

marian


On Aug 3, 2004, at 9:30 PM, Rex Scates wrote:

> read the entire email i sent.
> your buringman website afteburn report has a discussion about
> stopburnman.org.
> it addresses the same email that michael michael wrote our website and
> our response we had back to michael michael(of your old LLC) and Metric.
>
> your lady in charge of epliya was also on that email response.
> what the issue is is that michael michael say the pond thing was
> staged and such.
> as in a hoax like the hoaxs that cacopohny did in the early 1990's
> yes I know michael michael and used to know him quiet well and pulled
> off many hoaxes back then but i informned them that or website is
> fully legit.
> and now i was informned that your main website in the 2003 afterburn
> report addresses things that were already discussed.
>
> ttyl
> rex
>
> Marian wrote:
> Rex,
>
> this is the first email i've received on the subject. any clarification
> of the situation would be appreciated.
>
> m
>
>
> On Aug 3, 2004, at 7:21 PM, Rex Scates wrote:
>
> > see below for what you said on your website. Also see below for the
> > refernce email your allegations were from and our "public"
> response. I
> > have a few friends that are possibly interested in taking this issue
> > of Slander up. I hope to see a response from you.
> >
> > ttyl
> >
> > rex
> >
> >
> >
> > read all the items below and lets talk further. Don't just ignore
> this.
> >
> >
> On Aug 3, 2004, at 7:21 PM, Rex Scates wrote:
>
> > see below for what you said on your website. Also see below for the
> > refernce email your allegations were from and our "public"
> response. I
> > have a few friends that are possibly interested in taking this issue
> > of Slander up. I hope to see a response from you.
> >
> > ttyl
> >
> > rex
> >
> >
> >
> > read all the items below and lets talk further. Don't just ignore
> this.
> >
> >
> >
> > Q: I heard in the news about a group called Stopburningman.org. What
> > exactly do they want? Why are they after Burning Man?
> >
> > A: Certainly, we’ve seen our share of opposition, much of it
> > reflecting misunderstanding about what we do in the Black Rock
> Desert.
> > In 1997, it was Washoe County officials who didn’t understand what
> we
> > were up to in the desert. In 2003, we heard about a group calling
> > itself the “Anti Burning Man.” According to our sources, Ed Mitchell
> > and Rex Skates started the stopburningman.org site a few years ago
> > after being made to remove a monument they had constructed on BLM
> land
> > in the desert near the site. Many of the photos on their site are
> > staged, including one of Rex and his friends in Santa hats in a
> nearby
> > hot spring. Another photo attributes discoloration of the desert to
> > Burning Man, when it is actually from the 1999 Black Rock Golf
> > Classic.
> >
> > The Stopburningman.org site claims to oppose Burning Man on
> > environmental grounds. However, Burning Man has been held in the same
> > area of the desert since 2000, and the site is restored so
> completely
> > that it is actually a favorite spot for land sailors. Although it
> > makes for engaging news, Stopburningman.org is not a factually
> > accurate website.
> >
> > Some of the points it makes can be immediately refuted by careful
> > analysis of the facts. The Burning Man organization does not set the
> > method for inspecting its site after the event; the Bureau of Land
> > Management does – an agency whose very existence is dedicated to
> > protecting and ministering to the land. Any method employed to
> inspect
> > an area as large as our event site can be questioned, since many
> > hundreds of people would have to participate in order to inspect
> every
> > inch of our site. However, the careful and methodical method used is
> > overseen by the BLM, who are the guardians of this rare place of
> > beauty. The same methods are used to transect recreation areas NOT
> > used by Burning Man, and many of those areas actually fail to meet
> the
> > official standard. Burning Man has been publicly praised by the BLM
> > for setting new national standards for large-scale event clean-up.
> >
> > Likewise, the Stopburningman.org group claims that our event’s
> > disturbance of the playa surface is responsible for the “playa
> > serpent” phenomenon, in which serpentine dunes form on the lakebed.
> > They make no mention that this phenomenon is also found at sites
> > entirely upwind from our event site. Geologists have studied this
> > phenomenon since the 1950s, concluding the cause is a combination of
> > naturally occurring conditions.
> >
> > Burning Man and its volunteers have also put in a number of hours
> > restoring areas beyond our event site, including the Frog Farm
> > property. Far from causing “wildlife to die off en masse” as the
> > protest site claims, the restoration completed so far has prompted
> the
> > return of migratory waterfowl that previously stopped landing there
> > due to the degradation of the site and excessive vegetation choking
> > the ponds. Year-round public users had denuded the land around the
> > property’s hot springs; we have done maintenance on the fence and
> > gates and posted signs designating the private land as a
> > no-camping/day use only area. We also spent many hours cleaning up
> > garbage, abandoned cars, old farm equipment, and even human waste.
> >
> > A plan to further improve the ecological condition of the property is
> > under development by our organization, although this effort is not
> > required by either county, state, or federal authorities. We do use
> > some water from the large cold pond that we developed. Its use for
> > dust abatement in Black Rock City, as required by the event permit,
> is
> > approved by the Nevada State Water Authority and represents a very,
> > very small portion of the annual flow of the artesian wells that
> exist
> > on this property and an almost infinitesimal portion of the total
> > water contained in this aquifer. The removal of some vegetation from
> > these ponds has further enhanced the property for waterfowl.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > the original email from michael michael and Other Admin from BMORG. I
> > think it was Metric. I have the original repsonse if you want.
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In stopburningman@yahoogroups.com, "rex" wrote:
> > -------- Original Message --------
> > Subject: RE: stop burning man dot com
> > Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2004 18:35:14 +0000
> > From: Stop Bmorg
> > To: m2003@b...
> >
> >
> > >Congratulations on a most effective, if not elegant, hoax.
> > >
> > It's not a hoax at all.
> >
> > >This comes after wading through all the BM ePlaya posts, looking at
> > all the
> > >images on sbm.org, following a huge number of links, searching old
> > >Cacophony databases, tracking down domain registrants, sending a
> > couple of
> > >trick emails which exposed more trails, which led to more websites
> > >belonging to friends of sbm.org, which meant more registration
> > searches,
> > >and then digitally enlarging images, checking for matches on vehicle
> > makes,
> > >colors, license plates, and checking peoples faces and hair colors,
> > and
> > >matching playa images and events...
> > >
> > Ok, Jr. Detective.. let's see what you have.
> >
> > >I notice that "This Letter" FOIA is to our friend and writer Brian
> > Doherty:
> > >http://www.stopburningman.org/images/scans/debunksm.jpg
> > >
> > So what?
> >
> > >and that "This" evidence is lifted from the 2000 permit protest
> > materials:
> > >http://www.stopburningman.org/images/scans/eco1sm.jpg
> > >
> > Again, so what? It's still relevant.
> >
> > >"North Tree Fire" -this photo of the water truck was taken WEST of
> > the
> > RR
> > >track, probably on a return run from FrogPond:
> > >http://www.stopburningman.org/images/northtree.jpg
> > >You can see the RR crossing marking pole in the background.
> > >
> > You are hopelessly & completely wrong. It was NOT on a return run
> > from
> > Frog
> > Pond.
> >
> > http://www.stopburningman.org/images/20 ... tree01.jpg
> > http://www.stopburningman.org/images/20 ... tree02.jpg
> >
> > The telegraph poles in the background are NOT from the railroad
> > tracks.
> > There are no railroad markings whatsoever in this photo. The photo is
> > looking almost SOUTH. If it was West, you'd see the playa. But you
> > don't,
> > because you're wrong. Note that these are 2 additional photos that
> > were
> > *not* linked from the stopburningman.org website.
> >
> > >"Participants" -is that a Plymouth Neon?
> > >http://www.stopburningman.org/images/visitor.jpg
> > >
> > Quite possibly, but we didn't ask the Burning Man attendee that
> > violated
> > the
> > permit rules by driving out there.
> >
> > >"These People" -submitting proof of hot spring violations with a
> > photo
> > >which includes you and your friends in the water is very clever.
> > >http://www.stopburningman.org/images/visitors.jpg
> > >That damn dog shows up on too many of your websites.
> > >
> > Since you did an oh-so-careful evaluation of the photos, you should
> > realize
> > that the people in the springs are *not* members of our group. Each &
> > every
> > one was a Burning Man attendee.
> >
> > Burning Man attendees are FORBIDDEN from using the local hot springs.
> > Read
> > your own land use permit.
> >
> > >"Toxic Waste" -You showed this:
> > >http://blackrock.the7thbeer.com/pictures/mvc-012s.html and called it
> > "toxic
> > >waste from Burning Man. What you didn't show was this:
> > >http://blackrock.the7thbeer.com/pictures/mvc-011s.html
> > >Funny how the color and pattern match the 1st hole of the 1999 Black
> > Rock
> > >Golf Classic. http://www.keisterphoto.com/golf/hole05_99.htm
> > >
> > Nice coincidence, but incorrect. We didn't show what you linked to
> > because
> > it's not the same material. It appears to be greywater drained from
> > an
> > RV.
> >
> > >"Pits & Digging" -outdated info.
> > >http://www.stopburningman.org/images/fpond2.jpg
> > >
> > How is that outdated? The complete destruction of Frog Pond is still
> > evident. If anything, that shows that it's been going on for quite a
> > long
> > time.
> >
> > >As for "Dedication" -a swipe on the Earth Guardians:
> > >http://www.stopburningman.org/images/wimpout.jpg
> > >the other logbook pages pictured on Ed's website tell a different
> > story:
> > >http://blackrock.the7thbeer.com/pictures/pdrm0623.html
> > >Nice poetry Ed.
> > >
> > And that changes the fact that the Earth Guardians wimped out...
> .how?
> >
> > For the record, I'm not Ed. Like we've said before, there are
> multiple
> > people behind this but you stubborn morons insist on the term "sock
> > puppets."
> > MORE THAN onfiltered= NO SOCK PUPPET.
> > Clear? Good. Moving right along...
> >
> > >By the way, which puppet is Ed Mitchell?
> > >http://blackrock.the7thbeer.com/pictures/br98_me.html
> > >
> > Not that guy. That's not me either. Actually, I'm not sure WHO the
> > hell
> > that
> > is. I think it's Jeff.
> >
> > >And which puppet is Rex Skates:
> > >http://blackrock.the7thbeer.com/pictures/mvc-020s.html
> > >
> > That's Rex, alright. A scary sight in the morning, don't you think?
> >
> > >Sorry that you cant drive 100 MPH during the event any more, that
> > the
> > BLM
> > >now requires a permit & insurance for the Golf Classic, that you
> > can't
> > use
> > >FrogPond like you used to, and that I can't spend any more time on
> > this.
> > >The world is changing for all of us.
> > >
> >
> > If you (or any of the Burning Man attendees that we've encountered so
> > far)
> > really *were* sorry, then you might not be so conceited and hostile
> > towards
> > us. We've noticed that quite a lot of the eplaya denziens are unable
> > to
> > refute any of our information, so they devolve into petty mud
> > slinging
> > and
> > childish insults. Several of us have brought up very valid points
> > that
> > have
> > not really been addressed. Instead, the eplaya zealots went off and
> > pretended to be little detectives. How does that solve the situation?
> > Trying
> > to scare those that speak out?
> >
> > Maybe it's time that someone spoke out against the rampant drug use
> > and
> > alleged sexual assults. Notice that we're not going there - but it is
> > still
> > a valid concern.
> >
> > See, what we've asked for really isn't that hard. Seriously, it's
> not.
> > >And, at the time, we didn't know about the Neon Club:
> > >http://www.billboardliberation.com/images/hype/hype666_lrg.jpg
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > Regards,
> > stopbmorg@h...
> > http://www.stopburningman.org
> >
> > Not Ed. Not Rex. Not Rodney, and not Jeff. I'm Jonathan. Nyah. :P
> > --- End forwarded message ---
> >
> Maid Marian
> Mistress of Communication
> Burning Man 2004
> marian@burningman.com
>
>
Maid Marian
Mistress of Communication
Burning Man 2004
marian@burningman.com
allanon2
 
Posts: 252
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about what I have aginst BM

Postby allanon2 » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:00 am

its just as what I have ben sayign all the time.
the enviroment. and BMORG and BLM not following the rules thay laed out

we are a coutry to rules and everyone needs to follow them not that if you are priveldge class the rules dont matter

ttyl
rex
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Re: nope as I told maid marion thats all slander (long)

Postby Captain Goddammit » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:01 am

allanon2 wrote: Have you ever heard what BLM stands for? (Bureau of Land of Many Abuses)



That would be BLMA...

Do you know what DNA stands for?
National Dyslexic Association.

A 150 IQ.... it shows...
GreyCoyote: "At this rate it wont be long before he is Admiral Fukkit."
Delle: Singularly we may be dysfunctional misfits, but together we're magic.
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Location: Seattle, WA
Burning Since: 2000
Camp Name: First Camp

BLM is movign all the mouments on the NCA land

Postby allanon2 » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:32 am

[quote="TheJudge"]Hey while I'm at it, Rex, (allanon2, whatever) why dont you explain what you have against the event?

I read Marian's comments about how you were ordered to remove a monument you had installed illegally on BLM land.




BLM is having moved all mouments on BLM land. If they can contact people related to the monument they are having those peopel move them to the area just outside gerlach where all the gerlach monumets are.
if BLM can not find people assocated with the monuments then they will be moving them to the lost and found yard and if no one claims the monuments after a certain amount of time tey wil dispose of them
I think BLM is moving or having moved somethign liek 8 monuments.

I was not mad about it all as long as everyone was treated the same. That is one of the main things I care about.

hope that answers your question
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Re: for 20,000 you can buy a neon that will do 0-60 in 5.9 s

Postby madmatt » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:32 am

allanon2 wrote:thankyou for tellign me what I am. You peopel ehre have no clue. You just liek to call names to people that prove you wrong. ...sigh people who think they are enlightened but in erality are close minded to new controversial ideas.


http://webster.com/
http://getalife.com
http://gotoschool.com
http://noonewilllistentoyouunlessyoucanspell.com
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Postby DVD Burner » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:38 am

nothing like a good o'l flame throw to get the family together huh?
Image

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Re: wow someone that looked at both sides and asked a real q

Postby allanon2 » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:45 am

[/quote]

Well, wrt #1, neither the BMORG nor the Earth Guardians are the BLM. The BMORG could call the Frog Pond a redwood forest and that would not make it one.

How are you defining "wetlands"? What I am saying is that it makes little if any difference what the BMORG and/or Earthguardians call it. IIRC, the Frog Pond isn't even a naturally occuring pond (I seem to recall that it was created as part of a failed real estate development), and so, by all rights, should not even be there.

People can and have in the past made wetlands that are now recognized by the EPA as a wetland. Think fo the evaporation ponds in the bay arera. That was originaly fill that was added to the bay the orginal wetlands that existed before the ponds was inland from where the evaporation ponds are now. Yet the government has bought them as wetlands and have ecognixzed them as such. So yes wetlands can be man made and are often made made even on purpose.




So, are you claiming that all of the playa serpants' dust comes from the Burning Man area? Does the volume of dust which makes up the serpants actually match the volume of the depression (if any) of the site of Burning Man? These are just a couple questions which occurred to me while reading this discussion.


It takes very little land removal over a 1-2 sqmile area t cause the dunes,serpents on the lake bed. BLM has not done a detailed analysis of the situation to see if that occurs. Marion Goodall BMORG LLC said geolgists have studied the issue since the 1950's yet i think a totoal of 2 studies were done over a 50 year time period and the one that I saw and have in my pssoesion said they only occured in isolated locations and were much much smaller than they are now. BLM has neevr studied the issue until now and you know how fast bureacry works on problems. Wich is why the sempera powerplant will rpobaably go in cause BLM wont really look at the problem in any detail in a timely matter.



BTW, what effects would the power plant have on the playa, and would they be worse than any effects Burning Man might be having? I am just curious as to your opinion on this topic.[/quote]


As many peopel on this site say pick a fight and stick with it and that is what I have done. The effect of the powerplant on the playa (fine i spelled it your way now) would be a ottaly differnt effect than loose dust. it would thrown particulates high into the atmosphere and spread the polution over a great area and not be isolated to a small geogrpahic area. That si why it took so logn for people to see that effect of coal plants on the east cost an german and how they efected the enviroment. (acid rain and such) but once they dscoverd hwo bad the pboem was they did imrove the emisions standards from them. one problem is is that the coal from utah is nto as good as east coast coal and would polute more. I dont think you will see a efffect in any oen arera but i do feel that the powerplant would diminish the overal carign capacity of the blackrock desert and its ability to keep life forms healthyand have some negative long term impact. Both effects will eb hard to measure and very little detailed logn term study of the area has ever been performned. If people are ocncerned about radioactivty frm the cal in the atmospehere aroudn the blackrock desert I would be more concerned about the water frfom that area that has a substational amoutn of radioactivty. (gerlach si tryign to adress the problem ow) but that amount of radioactitvity is small compared to what you get from cosmic rays from explodign stars, gamma ray bursts, and qusaars.

hope ianswer your questions

ttyl
rex
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captian you never heard that sasying about blm?

Postby allanon2 » Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:48 am

Captain Goddammit wrote:
allanon2 wrote: Have you ever heard what BLM stands for? (Bureau of Land of Many Abuses)



That would be BLMA...

Do you know what DNA stands for?
National Dyslexic Association.

A 150 IQ.... it shows...



I guess you are that famailair with BLM. Peopel who live in a area where BLM owns a lot fo land all knwo the saying
of the Land of Many ABuses. Its a runnign joke from locals in nevada and Utah. Were BLM owns more land than anyone.

I added the burea part as they dont always.
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