Burning during War?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Is BM a debaucherous flight from reality?

Poll ended at Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:54 am

Yes - Maybe I should reconsider going, since we are at WAR
2
5%
Yes, but it's just some time off. I mean, GW has taken more time off than any president in recent history, and he's a WAR president
1
3%
No - Burning Man is about more than fun. It's about love and beauty and creativity, and we are going to effect peace by having fun and being creative in the desert.
7
18%
No - I support the war and trust the troops to protect me while I take a vacation.
0
No votes
Dude, chill.
29
74%
 
Total votes : 39

Postby Simply Joel » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:24 pm

Sensei wrote:Anybody think to ask the troops?

(Nod to Joel, Rob The Wop, and others, currently serving or otherwise; as their opinions carry about a ton more weight.)

The "Roaring Twenties": a decompression party after the war to end all wars.

He's still a troll.


I am more concerned about how veterans of this war will be treated in 5, 10, 15, 20 years... will taxpayers be willing to fund the veteran's benefits?

I think Burning Man is one example of freedom of expression... and I hope we continue to allow if not nuture freedom of expression... yet remember what my aunt once told me... "it is ok to have an open mind, just don't let your brain fall out."
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Postby spaceboy74 » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:58 pm

What's up with you guys basically telling me to shut up and if I don't want to go don't go? I know I posted a controversial topic - I did that on purpose. If you don't like that, then just don't bother reading further. I'm not ramming this down your throat. There are plenty of other discussion groups about bikes, post-play-syndrome, and such.

Odd that some of you got so agressive with me. Calling me names and such - gee, that's really mature. I've posted this question, about Burning Man and War, on other non-BM message boards. Surprisingly, burners have been the most aggressive towards me. I mean, I've gotten responses from all sorts of non-burners and none of them called me names. I don't take it personally, but its not exactly a constructive or effective response.

Interesting points some of you made about celebrating freedom, and going specifically because if you don't go, to a certain extent that is admitting defeat. I disagree, but I respect that. Thanks for your comments. Especially those of you who have served in the armed forces (a close friend of mine served in the first gulf war - Army Rangers. he doesn't like to talk about it much, but he himself is feeling a bit torn about events like burning man right now).

All in all, though, I feel pretty frustrated (cuz I thought BM was about community, right?) that mostly I just got slandered when I posted what I thought was a really valid question. I put my opinions in there about what I thought would be the right thing to do. Most of you disagree. Fine. But disagree with some logic or emotion, for chrissakes, rather than just a "you suck" or "you're ruining my high" response.

Look, I (and a lot of other Americans, you know) have been thinking about to what *extent* I celebrate my freedom when it seems to me that things are pretty dire for a lot of our fellow Americans. Sure, shit is going down all the time, but the WTC attacks, and the invasion of Iraq are particularly grave events in many of our lives. Sorry if I offend you for bringing it up, but hey, lots of us are thinking about it, including many former - and perhaps future - burners. I'm not trying to shame you into doing anything, just open a discussion on the topic that, as far as I could tell, hadn't yet really come up on the BM discussion list.
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Re: Burning during War?

Postby Rob the Wop » Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:10 pm

spaceboy74 wrote:Hey folks,

I went to burning man a few years ago - 2001 actually. Had a great time. Then, 9/11. And now, we are fighting a war. Still fighting a war. Whether we started it or not (I am trying to present this somewhat a-politically), there are 150,000 American soldiers in Iraq right now, maybe fighting for our freedom, certainly fighting for their lives. Many of those men and women believe it is right for them to be there, but many of them are there simply because they signed up (often out of grim economic conditions wherever they were living).

I was invited to BM this year, and would have a great camp to join, but well, it just doesn't feel right to me at all. If we were fighting the Vietnam War right now, would any of us - pro-war or anti-war or just trying to figure it out - party it up in the desert for a week?

This is not the Cold War, you know? It's a real war, whether FOX and CNN show it to us or not. 700 Americans have died since GW declared the war "over." Who know how many Iraqis have died, and how many more will before this settles down. April, when lots of you bought you're presale tickets to BM, was the deadliest month of the conflict. Sorry for the low blow, but HOW COULD YOU SIGN UP FOR BM this year? I mean, yeah, there is always conflict, but shit, it's pretty d*mn intense right now.

My sense is that many folks who attend BM are rather anti-war, anti-this-war especially. If you consider yourself such, how can you party while this violence occurs, perpetrated by *our* country? Especially when we know how questionable are the methods and incentives offered to recruit soldiers to fight this war. Many join the military out of economic necessity, or a belief that they will be asked to fight only when necessary (so if you don't think this is necessary, how can you party while they fight?).

If a close relative of yours - your brother, your sister, your nephew or niece, were in Iraw, would you go? What if, instead, it is a kid who you have never met, who believes in his heart (and maybe he's right, who knows) that he is protecting your ass, and because of all sorts of weird policies, is more eligible, say, to become an American citizen when he returns? (yes, we have recent immigrants fighting for our freedom, and yes, you can accelerate your citizenship by volunteering in the armed forces)

Burning Man is Steppenwolf all over again, except worse because most burners, it seems to me, are pretty damn aware of the rough situation outside of our country (aside from what happens within!) and rather uncomfortable with it.

And to those of you who will quickly respond with a "well, I need a break from it all" I say, fooey, you don't need a week long $1000 break. Especially one where you are intending to be very *happy* all week. Maybe if you went and sat on a mountain somewhere, or just had some conversation with folks who aren't as lucky as you to be able to take this week off...

Or maybe I've got it wrong and all burners support this war in Iraq, and therefore trust that Bush is watching out for us and it is perfectly safe, heck good for the American economy, to spend $1000 on a vacation in Nevada. The television will keep everyone informed, and the economy will keep going so that we have our jobs (or our parents have their jobs to pay for our education)...
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Postby Rob the Wop » Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:26 pm

Ehem...

BULLSHIT

Stop trying to come off as 'simply opening a discussion' and whining about 'how could you all be slamming me'. I reposted your opening statements.

Pull your head out of your ass my friend. Almost your entire opening post is accusations. You emphasize the fact that troops are dying. You blatantly state not only that you think it's wrong to go to Burning Man, but ask 'how could you?' to the rest of us. That's not a discussion. It's a guilt trip that, for whatever reason, you think is subtle enough that you can pass it off as friendly discussion. We're not stupid and whether or not you posted it in non-Burner forums is irrelevant.

My opinion? I did my duty. I'm not in now. I'm going to Burning Man and I'm not going to feel the slightest sympathy guilt for you.

If you feel such pain for our troops and the injustice of it all, then rather than stay at home curled up in a ball 'for our troops'- get off your ass and do something that will make a difference. Go to Iraq and help in a peace movement or head down to the Marine recruitment station. Whichever you feel will ease this terrible burden on your soul.
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Postby Rian Jackson » Tue Aug 03, 2004 2:39 pm

Well Spaceboy, should you like i know of several ways to do solidarity work in Iraq. I know folks who have been setting up IndyMedia and of people who are working to get funding for those whose lives have been destroyed. And i know where the army recruiting stations are, too. So whichever direction you're swinging, i can show you how to assuage your own guilt through activity. Of course, with either camp you might not make it out alive....

If you're gonna feel that strongly about something, get off your ass and act.
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Postby honeyfire » Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:49 pm

Spaceboy, i'm betting that there's not a lot of war supporters @ BM. Perhaps a Register To Vote And Get That Fucking Psycho Out Of Office theme camp could combine two activities you feel strongly about.
Go register the "drink beer, watch the tits go by" featherheads right over there... then tell 'em Dubya's gonna re-enact Prohibition.
I'm just trying not to be liveMOOP...

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Postby KellY » Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:58 pm

Damn it, there's a war on! Cancel Christmas!

Seriously Spaceboy, while you have a right to ask whatever you want and I grant that your question is not without legitimacy, you come off (especially in your first post) as so self-righteous, holier-than-thou, and generally accusatory that you pretty much provoked the reactions you did.

My aquaintance Johnny Jett just got back from Iraq, and might be sent there again, and he's coming out to the playa. DPW asskicker Wheelgunner just found out he's going to miss the event because he got called up. He's not asking us to forgo anything because he can't be there, but think about him when we're out building the city for all you partiers.

There's defintiely a philosophical question to be asked about celebrating while people are suffering, but don't fucking get all preachy about it. Did you give all your Christmas presents back during the first Gulf War? Do you send your Halloween candy to starving people in Africa? No? Then get off your pulpit, dude.
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Postby BAS » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:06 pm

Spaceboy--

Speaking as a future burner, the only reason I am not going this year is lack of funds and, at this point, lack of time to get ready even if the funds somehow became available. Burning Man is, in part, about individualism and therefore individual choices. If I could make it this year I would, because it is my choice that, given my circumstances, I could use the time away from such things as the current wars we are involved in (hey, we still have troops in Afghanistan, and seem to be stuck at about the same point as the Soviets were back in the 1980s). Added to that, I fail to see what difference it could possibley make one way or the other to the wars if I take a week or two off from my rather unimportant job and my feeble attempts at directing the course this fairly large and complex nation takes.

If we allow one facet of current events to dictate our actions, we have lost our freedom. Rightly or wrongly, that is my opinion on this topic. I am tempted to ramble on even more than I have (probably because I have been drinking :P ), but I really don't know as there is any more to add than that.

P.S.: Even though I don't support the Iraq War, I do share Joel's concern about how the veteran will be treated. The U.S. does not have a good track record with how it treats its verterans. If someone is willing to risk their life so the rest of us do not have to, we should be willing to help them out when they need help later on.
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Postby Hotspur » Wed Aug 04, 2004 1:37 am

spaceboy74 wrote:What's up with you guys basically telling me to shut up and if I don't want to go don't go?

All in all, though, I feel pretty frustrated (cuz I thought BM was about community, right?) that mostly I just got slandered when I posted what I thought was a really valid question. I put my opinions in there about what I thought would be the right thing to do. Most of you disagree. Fine. But disagree with some logic or emotion, for chrissakes, rather than just a "you suck" or "you're ruining my high" response.


If all you did is raise an interesting and controversial topic, that'd be one thing.

But no.

You were very clearly judging us who chose to go. You were claiming to be more pious than us in your desire for peace and support for the troops, to which I say, unambiguously: fuck you. Don't don't have the slightest clue as to what I'm doing to work for peace or to support our troops, so don't you dare judge me. Literally. Don't you dare.

You have zero knowledge from which to make such a judgement. Absolutely none.

And now you play like your some little innocent, "All I did was raise a few issues." bullshit.

I'll measure what I've done to support the troops, and what I've done to prevent and oppose the war, against what you've done any day. My conscience is clear.

You wonder why we're aggressive? Well, gee, I wonder, sherlock. You show up here and start casting judgements on all of us, surprise surprise, how do you think we're going to react?

Just don't play holy innocent with us.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Aug 04, 2004 8:58 am

Rob the Wop wrote:Stop trying to come off as 'simply opening a discussion' and whining about 'how could you all be slamming me'. I reposted your opening statements.
(theCryptofishist feels great pride in her sock.)
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:09 am

spaceboy74 could have wrote:I went to the burn in 2001 and days after I got home the Twin Towers were attacked. I felt this in a deeply personal way and I haven't returned to the playa. It breaks my heart that american men and women are laying down their lives for the President's vanity war [not to mention the (deliberately) uncounted Iraqis] and I find it even worse that many of the soldiers enlisted as it was their best chance of college, job training, and other economic opportunities. And now, there is a unfair backdoor policy of keeping and calling back people who have served their country in what is essentially a covert draft of the people who by all rights should have earned the right to leave the forces.
I loved Burning Man, but I just cannot return while this is curdling my stomach. I know many burners are against war in general and more against this war in particular and I wish to understand how they balance the joy and hedonism of the event with the senseless carnage of the war. Can you share your thoughts and feelings?
and I might not think that he lives under a bridge.
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eat your peas

Postby swampdog » Wed Aug 04, 2004 9:32 am

"eat your peas, there are starving children in India". I never understood how eating my peas benefitted anyone in India. If you don't go to Burning Man, what will you do that benefitst the troops in Iraq? Send the BM money to charity? Spend the week volunteering to help families of troops? Spend the week praying in a darkened room?

And what else should be cancelled so that we can honor the troops? Birthday parties? Weddings? Fireworks on the 4th of July? Political conventions?

The world is full of tragedy, and if you held up your life until all the tragedies resolved, you'd never get anywhere.

If anything, I think that Burning Man will help me to be a better person, to practice the values of peace and love in community that may help me force myself to be more engaged in making things better in the Other World.

And, as pointed out earlier, during the Viet Nam war a few people managed to find their way to Woodstock, not to mention the Summer of Love.

So that's my answer. This will be my first burn, so it may be a little awestruck as far as the potential benefits of BM to my soul, but even leaving that out, I think your question is pretty silly.

As far as other peoples' answers, and your comment to the effect that "on other BBSs people didn't react with hostility" remember that on other BBSs you were merely asking if AN event should take place during wartime, not if THEIR BELOVED event should take place during wartime. Big difference there, eh? Should weddings be postponed for the war is a whole different question than should YOUR wedding be postponed for the war. The first is likely to prompt abstract discussion, the second is likely to provoke anger. (and they're both silly). Not to mention the implication that you think burners may not be doing their part to honor/support the troops/work for peace.
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Postby blyslv » Wed Aug 04, 2004 11:09 am

If you stay home becasue of the war, the terrorists have won.

If you wipe from back to front, the terrorists have won.

"If you ride alone, you ride with Osama."

If you are passisive-aggressive in posting here, the terrorists have won.

If tax cuts for the rich are repealed or increase the terrorists have won.

If you consume less and think more, the terrorists have won.
Fight for the fifth freedom!
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Lmao

Postby dj big E » Wed Aug 04, 2004 10:13 pm

Lmao because I can. :lol:
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Postby spaceboy74 » Thu Aug 05, 2004 10:50 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
spaceboy74 could have wrote:I went to the burn in 2001 and days after I got home the Twin Towers were attacked. I felt this in a deeply personal way and I haven't returned to the playa. It breaks my heart that american men and women are laying down their lives for the President's vanity war [not to mention the (deliberately) uncounted Iraqis] and I find it even worse that many of the soldiers enlisted as it was their best chance of college, job training, and other economic opportunities. And now, there is a unfair backdoor policy of keeping and calling back people who have served their country in what is essentially a covert draft of the people who by all rights should have earned the right to leave the forces.
I loved Burning Man, but I just cannot return while this is curdling my stomach. I know many burners are against war in general and more against this war in particular and I wish to understand how they balance the joy and hedonism of the event with the senseless carnage of the war. Can you share your thoughts and feelings?
and I might not think that he lives under a bridge.


Yeah, I wish I'd put it more like this. Thanks cryptofish. My apologies for the accusations - I didn't mean to be that way, or rather, I see the error in my ways. .spaceboy.
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They've scheduled BM and the RNC for the same weekend

Postby Stormy » Thu Aug 05, 2004 5:59 pm

I've heard that some Burners are not going to BM, but instead will be protesting outside the Republican National Convention. While I admire this, I don't think that I could practically get across the country right now and I've made commitments to people at BM. I also wonder what impact it will have. Any opinions on what these people are doing?

http://www.newyorkmetro.com/nymetro/news/politics/national/features/n_10376/
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Postby stuart » Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:05 pm

pissing in the wind?
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but stuart you are that said i you beelive in

Postby allanon2 » Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:26 pm

stuart wrote:pissing in the wind?


somethign you should fight for it.

or are people just saying that to me to direct my attention away from BM?

i thought you cared and beleived that one individual can make a differnce.
that if you beelive in something to fight for it.
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Re: but stuart you are that said i you beelive in

Postby Rob the Wop » Fri Aug 06, 2004 3:51 pm

allanon2 wrote:
stuart wrote:pissing in the wind?


somethign you should fight for it.

or are people just saying that to me to direct my attention away from BM?

i thought you cared and beleived that one individual can make a differnce.
that if you beelive in something to fight for it.


There is a difference between standing up for something you believe in and fighting because you're having a 5-year old's temper tantrum. You're fighting because you like tearing up the playa and possibley damaging your Neon's tires from MOOP. Then when you made your initial half-assed whine to the Eplaya, you got flamed and put in your place. Now, intead of fighting for the environment, you're fighting against the Burning Man organization.

So, it's the difference between fighting for what you believe in vs. a childish temper tantrum vendetta against a specific group. You like tearing up the playa and there are pictures to prove it. So that nixs any idea that you have environmental concerns. And you are picking Burning Man as your target, versus any of the really dangerous environmental concerns.

Now go back to pissing in the kiddie pool and let the adults have a conversation, will ya? It's not like you'll ever accomplish anything.
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Postby Tancorix » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:41 pm

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Postby Sensei » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:51 pm

Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring BANANA PHONE!
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Re: but stuart you are that said i you beelive in

Postby allanon2 » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:51 pm

Rob the Wop wrote:
allanon2 wrote:
stuart wrote:pissing in the wind?


somethign you should fight for it.

or are people just saying that to me to direct my attention away from BM?

i thought you cared and beleived that one individual can make a differnce.
that if you beelive in something to fight for it.


There is a difference between standing up for something you believe in and fighting because you're having a 5-year old's temper tantrum. You're fighting because you like tearing up the playa and possibley damaging your Neon's tires from MOOP. Then when you made your initial half-assed whine to the Eplaya, you got flamed and put in your place. Now, intead of fighting for the environment, you're fighting against the Burning Man organization.

So, it's the difference between fighting for what you believe in vs. a childish temper tantrum vendetta against a specific group. You like tearing up the playa and there are pictures to prove it. So that nixs any idea that you have environmental concerns. And you are picking Burning Man as your target, versus any of the really dangerous environmental concerns.

Now go back to pissing in the kiddie pool and let the adults have a conversation, will ya? It's not like you'll ever accomplish anything.


never accomplsihed anything? wow you know me well.
I will be able to retire by the age of 50-55.
yeah havent accomplished anything.
haven't own a neon for 3-4 years.
Flamign does ot bother me, it just shows how inmature and whiny some of you are.

So if one icident proves a persons mind then you sure have a lot of explainign to do about larry ahrvey and michael michael.
I knew them from 1989-1994 and well I wont go into that as 1 incident does not make a person.

if so then clinton will always cheat and lie
dick cheney cusses at peopel when he gets mad
etc...

oen incident does not make a person.
have you ever not done somethign that you later regretted?
and yes I do care about the pliya. I have beeen goign there a lot longer than you have. since 1986 or so.


this whole thread was started by someoen expersseing his opinion on what he thought about the war and BM.
and all you guys could do is flame the poor uy. yeah he could have made his words so they did not anger anyone but that was ot the point
he spoke from the heart and sometimes speakign ffrom the heart hurts people.
so so sad that people just flame peopel that bother them.

its scary I thought peopel that cared about nature, liberals, are supposed to be the most open minded of people yet this board has proven to me that is not the case.

I bet I will be called a chirtian fundamentalist now. which is way far from the truth :)
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Postby Sensei » Fri Aug 06, 2004 4:53 pm

Sensei wrote:Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring BANANA PHONE!
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Postby Tancorix » Fri Aug 06, 2004 5:15 pm

Flamign does ot bother me, it just shows how inmature and whiny some of you are.


For something that's not a bother you sure write some long responses.

haven't own a neon for 3-4 years.


But while you had it you sure made your contribution to the playa serpent problem!

So if one icident proves a persons mind then you sure have a lot of explainign to do about larry ahrvey and michael michael.


What does this have to do with anything in the here and now? Why are you asking us to explain anything about two people that most of us have not met? How about speaking to your audience, and not the one in your mind.

this whole thread was started by someoen expersseing his opinion on what he thought about the war and BM.


Yeah, thanks for hijacking it to further your agenda at the expense of what was a heated but good discussion. Again it's nice of you to suck up the ORG's resources to further your agenda.

its scary I thought peopel that cared about nature, liberals, are supposed to be the most open minded of people yet this board has proven to me that is not the case.


Nice use of stereotyping...it's not the biggest stereotyping brush I've seen used on the eplaya but it ranks in the top 5. Hmmm...being a teacher I'm assuming you have a degree in higher ed. Didn't they teach you critical thinking skills? And what you consider as flaming has some good counterpoints in there. There are some flames in there about the guilt trip but there are other good comments mixed in. It's not as negative as you would believe.

have you ever not done somethign that you later regretted?


Yeah, not pushing the violations of your ISP's terms of service when I had you over the barrel last time. I wanted to be nice but I had you by the virtual cajones then and I didn't push it. I kick myself for not doing that because now 4 weeks before the event you came back when everyone is focusing on the event to spread your misinformation.

I'm sorry Allanon but I think you are wrong for directing your attention on Burning Man when it should be directed towards Sempra Energy. There are deep pockets backing that and the citizens of Empire and Gerlach need all the help they can get. You could be part of their defense team like I am and others are. Instead you're focused on people using water from Frog Pond or the formation of playa serpents. Meanwhile Sempra is working the phones, faxes, and e-mail 24x7 to put a giant soot belching colossus out there that threatens to dramatically lower the water table and again...you are bitching about playa serpents? Wake up! Get real. Direct your energy to where it can have the most impact and where it's truly needed.
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Postby Stormy » Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:55 pm



Please don't bait the badgers. You're most likely to get bit.
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Postby Tancorix » Fri Aug 06, 2004 7:59 pm

Please don't bait the badgers. You're most likely to get bit.


It won't be the first time, and not the last. Considering how many knockoffs and copies of that thing are floating around, it's not really about Badgers anyway or directed to our loveable but aggressive eplaya Badger anyway. It's about an song that gets stuck in your head and you can't get it out no matter what you do.
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Postby Stormy » Fri Aug 06, 2004 8:00 pm

So, I know of at least one person from New York who's thinking of going to the Convention and either skipping BM or coming late. I was really, really surprised to hear this. I know that the war protests we did in SF got a lot of attention. (It was like a police state for awhile with the helicoptors flying overhead). Unfortunately it didn't stop the "war." Anyone else know any New Yorkers that won't be making it?
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Postby BAS » Fri Aug 06, 2004 11:39 pm

You know, maybe it is a good thing I can't afford to travel this year, because protesting at the Republican Convention would be a tempting alternative to going to Burning Man.... :? I definitely could see that as a reason to miss BM.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Aug 09, 2004 1:59 pm

Tancorix wrote: Hmmm...being a teacher I'm assuming you have a degree in higher ed. Didn't they teach you critical thinking skills?
He claims to use examples from this board to teach his students about such. All I can think of is how the typical adolescent must find him pathetic.
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Old argument

Postby Cuddle Bunny » Tue Aug 17, 2004 2:38 pm

Clearly most people have given up on this rather silly poll and conversation, but I won't be able to sleep tonight if I don't put in my two cents on the Viet Nam comment that was made twice.

'If the Viet Nam War were going on right now...' would we be heading out to the Black Rock Desert to basically party our rocks off?

Well, just what in god's name do you think Woodstock was?

Further, I don't think it's such a bad idea to spend a week in the desert during this mess to prove to myself and those around me that I can share and live and be without corporate or government help.

And if anyone heading out to the playa hasn't spent at least a minute of their playa planning time hurting for the HUMAN lives being lost in Iraq and around the world because of politics ... they're assholes.
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