Burning during War?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Is BM a debaucherous flight from reality?

Poll ended at Sat Aug 07, 2004 12:54 am

Yes - Maybe I should reconsider going, since we are at WAR
2
5%
Yes, but it's just some time off. I mean, GW has taken more time off than any president in recent history, and he's a WAR president
1
3%
No - Burning Man is about more than fun. It's about love and beauty and creativity, and we are going to effect peace by having fun and being creative in the desert.
7
18%
No - I support the war and trust the troops to protect me while I take a vacation.
0
No votes
Dude, chill.
29
74%
 
Total votes : 39

Burning during War?

Postby spaceboy74 » Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:54 am

Hey folks,

I went to burning man a few years ago - 2001 actually. Had a great time. Then, 9/11. And now, we are fighting a war. Still fighting a war. Whether we started it or not (I am trying to present this somewhat a-politically), there are 150,000 American soldiers in Iraq right now, maybe fighting for our freedom, certainly fighting for their lives. Many of those men and women believe it is right for them to be there, but many of them are there simply because they signed up (often out of grim economic conditions wherever they were living).

I was invited to BM this year, and would have a great camp to join, but well, it just doesn't feel right to me at all. If we were fighting the Vietnam War right now, would any of us - pro-war or anti-war or just trying to figure it out - party it up in the desert for a week?

This is not the Cold War, you know? It's a real war, whether FOX and CNN show it to us or not. 700 Americans have died since GW declared the war "over." Who know how many Iraqis have died, and how many more will before this settles down. April, when lots of you bought you're presale tickets to BM, was the deadliest month of the conflict. Sorry for the low blow, but HOW COULD YOU SIGN UP FOR BM this year? I mean, yeah, there is always conflict, but shit, it's pretty d*mn intense right now.

My sense is that many folks who attend BM are rather anti-war, anti-this-war especially. If you consider yourself such, how can you party while this violence occurs, perpetrated by *our* country? Especially when we know how questionable are the methods and incentives offered to recruit soldiers to fight this war. Many join the military out of economic necessity, or a belief that they will be asked to fight only when necessary (so if you don't think this is necessary, how can you party while they fight?).

If a close relative of yours - your brother, your sister, your nephew or niece, were in Iraw, would you go? What if, instead, it is a kid who you have never met, who believes in his heart (and maybe he's right, who knows) that he is protecting your ass, and because of all sorts of weird policies, is more eligible, say, to become an American citizen when he returns? (yes, we have recent immigrants fighting for our freedom, and yes, you can accelerate your citizenship by volunteering in the armed forces)

Burning Man is Steppenwolf all over again, except worse because most burners, it seems to me, are pretty damn aware of the rough situation outside of our country (aside from what happens within!) and rather uncomfortable with it.

And to those of you who will quickly respond with a "well, I need a break from it all" I say, fooey, you don't need a week long $1000 break. Especially one where you are intending to be very *happy* all week. Maybe if you went and sat on a mountain somewhere, or just had some conversation with folks who aren't as lucky as you to be able to take this week off...

Or maybe I've got it wrong and all burners support this war in Iraq, and therefore trust that Bush is watching out for us and it is perfectly safe, heck good for the American economy, to spend $1000 on a vacation in Nevada. The television will keep everyone informed, and the economy will keep going so that we have our jobs (or our parents have their jobs to pay for our education)...
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Postby Badger » Sat Jul 31, 2004 2:32 am

I was invited to BM this year, and would have a great camp to join, but well, it just doesn't feel right to me at all.


Then don't go.

Thanks for the sermon to the rest of us clutards cupcake.
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Re: Burning during War?

Postby Sensei » Sat Jul 31, 2004 2:56 am

cupcake wrote:Hey folks,

I went to burning man a few years ago - Yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada My first post. yada yada yada yada yada yada yada Boy, am I a troll. yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada Trolling here... yada yada yada yada yada yada Yoohoo, I'm trolling... yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada.


I'm sorry, what were you saying?
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Postby Simply Joel » Sat Jul 31, 2004 6:28 am

ditto, what sensei said...
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Postby Tancorix » Sat Jul 31, 2004 9:14 am

While the war is important, you have to live your life. Otherwise the terrorists have won. Their goal is to change America, to change our core values, beliefs, and behaviors. If you change your routine, if you fail to live your life, then...let me borrow your broad stereotyping brush that you used and paint you with it. If you let them change your behavior, you are aiding and abetting the enemy. You are a traitor to your country. You are giving the enemy exactly what they want. You have given Osama and the Islamic "Sharia-type" fundamentalists a victory, another mind converted in their drive towards a world under ultra-aggressive Sharia law. Congratulations, you should be very proud of yourself.
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Uhm, ya nice tirade

Postby Rob the Wop » Sat Jul 31, 2004 10:43 am

I love people that bitch about the way things are and then
1) Don't make suggestions on what to do to change things
or
2) Make suggestions for useless gestures that accomplish nothing

At my work, we generally tell them to 'shut the hell up' (in PC terms) unless they have a solution.

Course, I doubt I would take any of your advise seriously anyway. But feel free to detail your plan to solve the world's problems by posting it to a bulletin board for a desert party. In my first psychology class, they had a postcard written to the coaches of the various football teams in a local area. The gentleman decided to warn the world against the aliens manipulating people's minds using this medium.

I have a feeling you will have about the same results.
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Postby Hotspur » Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:07 pm

Amen.

How, exactly, does Burning Man (which is about a hell of a lot more than "partying it up") undermine the war or our troops? Are we supposed to sit at home with the shades drawn for two years?

I've put my money where my mouth is, supporting individuals and organizations working to get us out of this mess. I've donated my time, corresponding with troops who contacted me asking for advice related to the industry I work in. None of them ever asked me to sit shiva for the duration of their deployment.

You don't feel right about going, fine, don't. Don't assume that we're not doing our part just because we're going to black rock city. There are a hell of a lot more valuable things you could than try to guilt trip a bunch of burners.

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Postby Sensei » Sat Jul 31, 2004 12:37 pm

Tancorix wrote:...let me borrow your broad stereotyping brush that you used and paint you with it. If you let them change your behavior, you are aiding and abetting the enemy. You are a traitor to your country.


Nice. Of course, it would have meant more if he/she/it were something other than a troll, but nice technique there, Tanc. I like your painting.
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Postby KellY » Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:24 pm

Interesting new take on the "politics and Burning Man don't mix" thought train. Instead of "don't talk about the state of the world at Burning Man because it harshes my mellow", it's "The state of the world is harshing my mellow so don't go to Burning Man".

Frickin' puritans. Can't seem to get the idea that just becuase something is fun it doesn't have to be completely separated from everything else.
"Of what use is a philosopher who doesn't hurt anybody's feelings?" -Diogenes
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Postby Bob » Sat Jul 31, 2004 1:47 pm

I'd try to burn Kelly in effigy, but he's too damned big to fit in the burn barrel.
Amazing desert structures & stuff: http://sites.google.com/site/potatotrap/

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Postby Sensei » Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:11 pm

The thing is, the reason I was amused by Tanc's 'painting' was because it was from the school of "broad stereotyping". Don't tell me you don't know what broad stereotyping is... Ask trollboy, he knows.
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Postby Blenderhead » Sat Jul 31, 2004 5:21 pm

Dick Cheney: "Go shopping."
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Postby spaceboy74 » Sun Aug 01, 2004 12:58 pm

Ah c'mon, it is not a choice between sitting indoors with the shades drawn or a week at BM. BM is a huge party, for the most part. Yeah, there is community and creativity. But basically it's a party.

If we were fighting the Vietnam War right now, would you go to BM?

Once again I reiterate, there are 150,000 Americans in Iraq right now, fighting for their lives, and yours. Many of them came from rough neighborhoods, or aren't even (yet) American citizens. They joined because they saw it as a "leg up" in the world.

Shit, I'm not telling you what to do, because only you can decide for yourself, but maybe you all could think about the sacrifice they are making, and think about whether you would go if your brother or sister were in Iraq right now. They are all someone's brother or sister.
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Postby Hotspur » Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:12 pm

Well let me reiterate this... I know how many fucking troops are in Iraq.

What makes you think I don't?

Get bent.
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Postby DVD Burner » Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:28 pm

Burningman will rule the world some day........soon. :P
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Postby Tancorix » Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:39 pm

If you're going to remember the troops in active combat, don't forget Afghanistan.
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Postby BAS » Sun Aug 01, 2004 1:59 pm

there are 150,000 Americans in Iraq right now


Hm. 150000 Americans in Iraq. 30000 people in Black Rock City. 150,000/30,000 means everyone going to Burning Man needs to recruit 4 other people to come with him or her!

Or am I getting the wrong message?

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Postby Tancorix » Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:02 pm

Have you looked at your poll results? Take your own advice and that of 12 others dude: CHILL.
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Postby atossab » Sun Aug 01, 2004 2:26 pm

Interesting, I was just reading the JRS and commenting how LUCKY the whole world is that something like Burning Man is going on. So I came to eplaya and your post was the first thing I saw. Thank God, in a time of war, there is 30 000 people putting out good positive hard working creative energy, working in cooperation towards a common goal which while employs ingenuity and dedication and planning, does not involve killing and profit.

Bye the bye, I know several burners who just came back from Iraq. I met one man at the Burn on the 4th of July who said his desert survival skill from having been a burner for 5 years helped his whole regiment: putting up shelters securely, shade, etc...

I wonder why you feel so guilty? Could it be that you sit around preaching and putting bumperstickers on your car ? Speech Acts, blah!
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Ok

Postby Lysergic » Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:29 pm

"I'm gonna get my kicks before the whole shit-house goes up in flames, alright!" --Jim Morrison
Doubt everything. Find your own light.
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Postby Simply Joel » Sun Aug 01, 2004 4:29 pm

in a neighborshood close to where you are...
Democrats... snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, daily!


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Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:31 am

spaceboy74 wrote:If we were fighting the Vietnam War right now, would you go to BM?
It didn't keep anyone from going to Woodstock. Or Altamont. And people got married, got born, died, fell in love (sometimes at antiwar rallies!), worked, retired, stubbed their toes and went on with thier lives in a thousand little ways. I find this a false dichotomy. Don't go it you don't want to. End of discussion.
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Postby stuart » Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:53 pm

but maybe you all could think about the sacrifice they are making


I thought you were talking about the sacrifice I have made to try and entertain ingrates like yourself. Sorry, my misstake.
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Postby Rob the Wop » Mon Aug 02, 2004 3:53 pm

Hey spaceboy. Quick question for you. Have you ever served?

I'm a former Navy CB. If this action would have happened during my term, I would have been over there. I feel I did my part years ago. If you are really that worried about it- then join up.

Action starts with the individual. And an individual's actions are dictated by their own personal principles, not yours. If you feel like protesting instead of going to Burning Man- then protest. If you feel like fighting over in Iraq rather than going to Burning Man- then join up.

But do us all a favor and don't try to make us perform some action (or inaction) out of a misplaced guilt trip.
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Postby Rian Jackson » Mon Aug 02, 2004 4:36 pm

Troll or not, I think i might just answer you:

Considering how much of my time i put into politics, and considering that the way that people interact at BM changes the divisions of the world more than just about anything i have ever seen, i think it's perfectly fine.

I struggled for about 6 months over whether to go to BRC or RNC. Finally decided to be playa-bound. I need it to do what i do. Activists are not superhumans, we get burned out. And then there's the advice of a very active friend of mine: enough protesting. Go do something productive.

This doesn't mean i'll be bringing signs and speeches to the burn. I intend to live with the community in the way that i think communities ought to. In doing that, we all institute positive change. While i'm at it, i'm gonna feel good about it. And i'm gonna make other people feel good, too.

The money is hard to justify. So I think cheap, be resourceful, and think long term global change.

I'm over the guilt. There's more than one way to attack a problem.

And yes, i have very close friends in Iraq and who will be in NYC.

Any other questions?
If so please direct them to Nira, I'm switching personalities for the rest of the day.
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Postby Apollonaris Zeus » Mon Aug 02, 2004 8:31 pm

Wow, I leave for a few days and we have this great thread going right after the Demo Convention.

today, 60 Christian Iraqis have died or have been injured.

See what liberty GW Bush has brought them and to think that we are going to war against Iran tomorrow without the necessary military might to do so because GWB has spend his wad in a war with an ally in the war against terrorist Iran.

Why didn't the first Bush administration support Iraq in the Iraq-Iran war. War with Iran is imminent and must be done before they develope the Bomb!

Fuck You Bush's!

You sold out America!

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FREEDOM

Postby dj big E » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:05 pm

All the soldiers that have died over the years. Died representing the United States. Which to me stands for freedom. I will exercise mine everyday and especially at Bm. Weather were at war or an oil/police action. Those are United States soldiers and they represent FREEDOM.
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Re: FREEDOM

Postby Rob the Wop » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:05 pm

dj big E wrote:All the soldiers that have died over the years. Died representing the United States. Which to me stands for freedom. I will exercise mine everyday and especially at Bm. Weather were at war or an oil/police action. Those are United States soldiers and they represent FREEDOM.


Dude, no ROFL?

OK OK, I agree. Not really something to laugh about IMHO.
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Postby Rob the Wop » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:06 pm

Oops. My bad. (Damn this edit button.)

I meant lmao.
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Postby Sensei » Tue Aug 03, 2004 1:15 pm

Anybody think to ask the troops?

(Nod to Joel, Rob The Wop, and others, currently serving or otherwise; as their opinions carry about a ton more weight.)

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He's still a troll.
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