Another Scalper Discussion

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Another Scalper Discussion

Postby UrpleEeple » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:32 am

trilobyte wrote:It may not be cool, but it's allowed both in the state of Nevada (whose laws govern our event) and on ePlaya. You can share what you think of people who charge more than face value - but please, no personal attacks.


Selling tickets at more than face value isn't allowed on Craigslist period. You would think these kind of rules could be setup for eplaya. You're your own forum and can setup whatever rules you please, regardless of whether it's legal in the state of Nevada or not. Stop supporting scalpers
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby theplayaplayer » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:46 pm

yeah if you look on craigslist theirs this one guy from pyramid lake indian reservation who got 4 free tickets and is selling them for 650-700 each. like seriously, wheres the love? its just a ticket, like what is this world coming too? oh yeah an apocalypse, we're doooomed so lets burn the F***ing man! :idea:
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby waywardvirtuoso » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:52 pm

Uh craigslist faqs says scalping is fine but warns that buyers dont like it and will probably flag your post for removal. But it's totally allowed.

Now "right" and "allowed" may be very different things... But I guess I'll keep further comment there to myself.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby trilobyte » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:09 pm

If you have a problem with the rule, you are more than welcome to leave ePlaya and look for tickets elsewhere.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby Sunray » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:19 pm

But, I will say that Burning Man is like a multi-cellular organism of consciousness, and ticket scalpers to this event are like a cancer. I guess it's not the cancer's fault. He just is what he is.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby General Rowdy » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:34 pm

IDK about Nevada law, but SCALPING IS ILLEGAL IN LAS VEGAS!
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:40 pm

Eric wrote:
graidawg wrote:please note the sig line this surely crosses the line between legit and consumerism? trilo is this enough for removal banning?


It's just his email addy. Trilobyte already posted above, if it was suspect he would have pulled it.

Just content yourself in the knowledge that all the scalpers & profiteers are going to have to start rapidly dropping their prices in one week.

The thing is Eric, The OP has openly stated he is a Ticket Agent in anouther thread. and buys tickets from other Burners (but only at cost + 10-15%) and then resells at a huge markup.

This creates two problems with the decomodification concept: They are compeating with the Burner-burner ethos making it hard for burners on a budget to connect with other giving burners. the second problem this creates is it discourages eplayans from protecting themselves from profiteers by having Mod's stand by and wringing thier hands in either inaction or fear of lawsuit. thus degrading the trust of our (eplayan) abillity to say what we think without reproach from the mods.
save the canned response; "as distastfull as it is...., The same rights they are using...., entirely legal...." As they are trite and transparent.
But Grifitti has most def violated the TOS.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby trilobyte » Sun Aug 21, 2011 2:56 pm

Believe me, I'm no fan of those who sell tickets above face value. If this were simply a listing for the company, it would have been pulled in a heartbeat. But it's a listing of tickets for a fixed price, which is allowed on the site.

If we just started randomly pulling posts because we didn't think something was cool, or we didn't like the look of a poster (or what they wrote), this place would be a lot more frustrating than one with a few ticket scalper posts. The best (and smartest) thing you could do is ignore such threads, stop replying (and bumping them to the top in the process), and just let them sink to the bottom.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby BBadger » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:18 pm

knowmad wrote:This creates two problems with the decomodification concept: They are compeating with the Burner-burner ethos making it hard for burners on a budget to connect with other giving burners. the second problem this creates is it discourages eplayans from protecting themselves from profiteers by having Mod's stand by and wringing thier hands in either inaction or fear of lawsuit. thus degrading the trust of our (eplayan) abillity to say what we think without reproach from the mods.


The mods are here just to keep order, not to babysit people. The fact that someone selling a $600 ticket gets railed on by the members of this forum is more than enough to inform any would-be buyer that is not clinically dead above the neck that purchasing the ticket for such prices is not such a great idea. I also think that the "community disdain" that many posts, overpriced ticket, free ticket, begging, offers, etc. serves the forum better by leaving these "test cases" up for public scrutiny rather than eliminating problems and leaving people uninformed and unaware. It's like removing the topic of sex from the education system: it doesn't go away, and stifling discussion and exposure to such information will lead to worse decisions.

Furthermore, to require mods to go around deleting posts like these is a line that is hard to keep consistent and fair. Are they now supposed to regulate "unbalanced" trades and offers? Tickets for tents? Tickets for rides? Does the fact that a "ticket broker" admits to reselling at a markup really change the fact that it happens anyway? What about those who don't admit it? Is it now up to the instinct of the mods to recognize and regulate this kind of "commerce"? With such issues involved, it would probably be better to just eliminate the tickets forum altogether than rely on such a subjective system.

In the end, like nearly all of these proposed anti-scalping regulations, I think this is just another mountain made out of a molehill issue. We don't need overkill regulation for what amounts to small, isolated problems, not chronic issues that require blanket regulations.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 5:24 pm

BBadger wrote:
knowmad wrote:This creates two problems with the decomodification concept: They are compeating with the Burner-burner ethos making it hard for burners on a budget to connect with other giving burners. the second problem this creates is it discourages eplayans from protecting themselves from profiteers by having Mod's stand by and wringing thier hands in either inaction or fear of lawsuit. thus degrading the trust of our (eplayan) abillity to say what we think without reproach from the mods.


The mods are here just to keep order, not to babysit people. The fact that someone selling a $600 ticket gets railed on by the members of this forum is more than enough to inform any would-be buyer that is not clinically dead above the neck that purchasing the ticket for such prices is not such a great idea. I also think that the "community disdain" that many posts, overpriced ticket, free ticket, begging, offers, etc. serves the forum better by leaving these "test cases" up for public scrutiny rather than eliminating problems and leaving people uninformed and unaware. It's like removing the topic of sex from the education system: it doesn't go away, and stifling discussion and exposure to such information will lead to worse decisions.

Furthermore, to require mods to go around deleting posts like these is a line that is hard to keep consistent and fair. Are they now supposed to regulate "unbalanced" trades and offers? Tickets for tents? Tickets for rides? Does the fact that a "ticket broker" admits to reselling at a markup really change the fact that it happens anyway? What about those who don't admit it? Is it now up to the instinct of the mods to recognize and regulate this kind of "commerce"? With such issues involved, it would probably be better to just eliminate the tickets forum altogether than rely on such a subjective system.

In the end, like nearly all of these proposed anti-scalping regulations, I think this is just another mountain made out of a molehill issue. We don't need overkill regulation for what amounts to small, isolated problems, not chronic issues that require blanket regulations.

gthat's the rub, these are not small problems they are event threatening problems.
The kind of person who has alot of mony to throw at thier ticket, are about the same type of person that will show up and watch, and not participate. they will share thier drugs and booze, complain about "free loaders" don't bring art cars or even ask thier neighbor if running the genni (on thier rental RV) at 2:00AM. soon all the folks that want to go will. only all the types of people that bring things (Art, MutantsV's, Theme camps, ect....)
Obviously a Regulation (overkill or not) will not fix this. A Fair Ticketing prosses will.
The Ticket day fiasco made one thing clear. The system is faulty and needs to be fixed.
Possable fixes:
Your ticket stub from last year saves you X% on next year tickets.
The org could free it's self from trying to generate "Seed $" by having the permit $ upfront, with no garentee that anyone will show up.
Eleminate the us/them atitude when burners think about themselves and the org. and take open bids from professional tix-companys insted of cronyisim.
A raise of 7.5% of ticket prices would generate enough $ to put twards tickets that could be gifted out by free random lottery. did you fill out the Survey last year? Then you are "in", for the last x-years then you are in for X chances for x tickets. burners that won tickets would most likely have a ticket in hand when they found out they had won one, then just bring anouther friend, or gift it back to the org.

Loads of posabilitys that would work if only those that profit and or worry about being sued by NV would step aside and let burners fix thier own problems.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby BBadger » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:01 pm

knowmad wrote:gthat's the rub, these are not small problems they are event threatening problems.
The kind of person who has alot of mony to throw at thier ticket, are about the same type of person that will show up and watch, and not participate.


Absolute unsubstantiated bullshit. The only reason BM's tickets cost what they do is to cover the cost of the infrastructure of the event itself, as well as some funding for some art projects. Everything else that creates BM is fueled by private means, most of which are substantially more than the cost of a ticket, even at high scalping prices.

There is no correlation between means and participation

they will share thier drugs and booze, complain about "free loaders" don't bring art cars or even ask thier neighbor if running the genni (on thier rental RV) at 2:00AM. soon all the folks that want to go will. only all the types of people that bring things (Art, MutantsV's, Theme camps, ect....)


These statements aren't even congruent with your previous ones. Now those scalper-price paying ticket holders are going to complain about the uncontributing "freeloaders" who do nothing more than... uh... spectate? So who is the problem now?

But more to the point: no, it's not an event threatening problem. Don't you remember? This is the very first year that BM has ever sold out. This is the first year that scalpers were able to sell tickets above direct-at-gate prices. How can you even make such unsubstantiated claims as to the effects of these so-called "chronic" problems when there is not a single instance in history that can back that claim up?

Nor were this year's circumstances even that problematic. People had 6-8 months to get their tickets before they sold out. It was hardly a mad scramble to get tickets, and the "scalpers" this year were just the people who paid a little more attention to the signs that it would sell out. If people missed out, too fucking bad. It's like missing a spot on an airliner because you tried to buy your ticket too late. Scalpers didn't cause that problem, demand and procrastination did.

This is a small problem. It doesn't need "fixes" now, because there aren't any chronic problems to fix. All this may even blow over next year when the new permit is in place. Watch as this year's problems stem from a strict enforcement of ticket number controls.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:17 pm

BBadger....Bla, bla, bla. Unsubstantiated, Bla, contradicory, Bla, bla......
Nothing to See here move on. it will all be better when....


I am not the only one that has voiced this problem/View point. And when Someone just comes along and says "Nothing to see here move on". I tend to stick around and hear the input of others. the others that are saying what they are seeing, not that what I am seeing as invalid.

There is a better way to do this, and this year's ticket mess was avoidable.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby BBadger » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:33 pm

knowmad wrote:I am not the only one that has voiced this problem/View point. And when Someone just comes along and says "Nothing to see here move on". I tend to stick around and hear the input of others. the others that are saying what they are seeing, not that what I am seeing as invalid.


Yeah, and I'm not the only one to voice that it isn't a problem and perhaps the cure will be worse than the disease. I'm not saying there's nothing to see here, I'm saying your claims are nothing more than speculation, framed in a manner that suggest that there is an ongoing pattern of problems. But there isn't.

There is a better way to do this, and this year's ticket mess was avoidable.


Mess avoidable how? How many scalpers did you see? I saw maybe 200 tickets on ebay, total. That's, what, 0.1% of those sold? Most will remain unsold, and need to be offloaded at cost for these people to get back their money.

Now imagine there had been zero scalpers. Absolutely none. What would have changed? The tickets would have still been sold out, and many burners in the exact same boat. So what exactly would have been improved given anti-scalper regulations? "Cost" priced tickets that are bought up immediately? Does that solve the ticket scarcity? At least people have the option now of getting a ticket, even at a higher price if they simply must go.

So I just don't see what these solutions are really accomplishing. It's not like the scalpers bought up thousands of tickets creating a scarcity. The scarcity was caused by demand, and even then, only occurred after 6 months beyond the January public ticket sale. The only remedy to this problem would be to sell more tickets.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:47 pm

BBadger wrote:
knowmad wrote:I am not the only one that has voiced this problem/View point. And when Someone just comes along and says "Nothing to see here move on". I tend to stick around and hear the input of others. the others that are saying what they are seeing, not that what I am seeing as invalid.


Yeah, and I'm not the only one to voice that it isn't a problem and perhaps the cure will be worse than the disease. I'm not saying there's nothing to see here, I'm saying your claims are nothing more than speculation, framed in a manner that suggest that there is an ongoing pattern of problems. But there isn't.

There is a better way to do this, and this year's ticket mess was avoidable.


Mess avoidable how? How many scalpers did you see? I saw maybe 200 tickets on ebay, total. That's, what, 0.1% of those sold? Most will remain unsold, and need to be offloaded at cost for these people to get back their money.

Now imagine there had been zero scalpers. Absolutely none. What would have changed? The tickets would have still been sold out, and many burners in the exact same boat. So what exactly would have been improved given anti-scalper regulations? "Cost" priced tickets that are bought up immediately? Does that solve the ticket scarcity? At least people have the option now of getting a ticket, even at a higher price if they simply must go.

So I just don't see what these solutions are really accomplishing. It's not like the scalpers bought up thousands of tickets creating a scarcity. The scarcity was caused by demand, and even then, only occurred after 6 months beyond the January public ticket sale. The only remedy to this problem would be to sell more tickets.


The problem is that there are actualy thousands of people who buy and resale, not just one small group of "brokers" that buy a bunch and resale. and when we turn a blind eye to the burner on burner profitering, we allow Brokers to set the upper limit that your average "burner" is thinking he/she can get of the next person.
So an obvious way to discourage that is to Publicly/loudly ridicule the blatent profiteer, and steer negitive attention to them while encouraging good burner behavior and point fingers (the middle one works good for this) at the apologistic deuschy-burners who say "But it's a free market"; and say [Loudly] "No It's not!".
Last edited by knowmad on Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby A Jester » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:27 pm

knowmad wrote:So an obvious way to discourage that is to Publicly/loudly ridicule the blatent profiteer, and steer negitive attention to them while encouraging good burner behavior and point fingers (the middle one works good for this) at the apologistic deuschy-burners who say "But it's a free market"; and say [Loudly] "No It's not!".




I like this solution because it's something you do, not something you hope the .org or someone else will do. It also doesn't involve new tactics or laws or regulations or committees.
+1
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby Eric » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:29 pm

knowmad wrote:encouraging good burner behavior and point fingers (the middle one works good for this) at the apologistic deuschy-burners who say "But it's a free market"; and say [Loudly] "No It's not!".


So "good" Burner behavior is calling people who disagree with you "douches"? Interesting interpretation of the word "good".
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:30 pm

A Jester wrote:
knowmad wrote:So an obvious way to discourage that is to Publicly/loudly ridicule the blatent profiteer, and steer negitive attention to them while encouraging good burner behavior and point fingers (the middle one works good for this) at the apologistic deuschy-burners who say "But it's a free market"; and say [Loudly] "No It's not!".
It's Market Free!



I like this solution because it's something you do, not something you hope the .org or someone else will do. It also doesn't involve new tactics or laws or regulations or committees.
+1

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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:33 pm

Eric wrote:
knowmad wrote:encouraging good burner behavior and point fingers (the middle one works good for this) at the apologistic deuschy-burners who say "But it's a free market"; and say [Loudly] "No It's not!".


So "good" Burner behavior is calling people who disagree with you "douches"? Interesting interpretation of the word "good".

Pretty much sums it up.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby jkisha » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:34 pm

Eric wrote:
knowmad wrote:encouraging good burner behavior and point fingers (the middle one works good for this) at the apologistic deuschy-burners who say "But it's a free market"; and say [Loudly] "No It's not!".


So "good" Burner behavior is calling people who disagree with you "douches"? Interesting interpretation of the word "good".


It is, isn't it. These threads complaining about scalping are getting so old. Get over it people, IT IS A FREE MARKET. And the funniest thing about it, to me, is that the number of tickets sold over face value will turn out to be minuscule. Geez people, get a life. AND GET YOUR TICKETS ON TIME NEXT YEAR. :!: :roll:
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:43 pm

jkisha wrote:
Eric wrote:
knowmad wrote:encouraging good burner behavior and point fingers (the middle one works good for this) at the apologistic deuschy-burners who say "But it's a free market"; and say [Loudly] "No It's not!".


So "good" Burner behavior is calling people who disagree with you "douches"? Interesting interpretation of the word "good".


It is, isn't it. These threads complaining about scalping are getting so old. Get over it people, IT IS A FREE MARKET. And the funniest thing about it, to me, is that the number of tickets sold over face value will turn out to be minuscule. Geez people, get a life. AND GET YOUR TICKETS ON TIME NEXT YEAR. :!: :roll:


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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby BBadger » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:03 pm

knowmad wrote:The problem is that there are actualy thousands of people who buy and resale, not just one small group of "brokers" that buy a bunch and resale. and when we turn a blind eye to the burner on burner profitering, we allow Brokers to set the upper limit that your average "burner" is thinking he/she can get of the next person.


"Thousands" you say. From what source did you source this statistic?

And so what about upper limits on prices? That's great, an upper limit. But you know what defines and average price people can actually sell tickets for? The actual buyers. In other words, supply and demand. What caused that? The popularity of the event that caused the first sell-out in history. It wasn't some master plan by brokers, burner-to-burner profiteers, etc.

So an obvious way to discourage that is to Publicly/loudly ridicule the blatent profiteer, and steer negitive attention to them while encouraging good burner behavior and point fingers (the middle one works good for this) at the apologistic deuschy-burners who say "But it's a free market"; and say [Loudly] "No It's not!".


Though still quite naïve, at least you've dropped the regulatory ideas. Still, I'm not so sure about the latter half of this "good burner behavior" you purport to encourage.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:21 pm

BBadger wrote:
"Thousands" you say. From what source did you source this statistic?


Extrapolation, I am in contact with about 300 burners on a daylie basis, and a significant portion of those people have admited/braged about buying twice as manny tickets as they need then selling them in the weeks before the burn.
thus 15-20% of 300 = 45-50 ppl X 167 = 7 515 ppl and factoring for compassion at a generous 50% we come up to, 3 757
Thus thousands.

BBadger wrote:And so what about upper limits on prices. That's great, an upper limit. But you know what defines and average price people can actually sell tickets for? The actual buyers. In other words, supply and demand.

Though still quite naïve, at least you've dropped the regulatory ideas. Still, I'm not so sure about the latter half of this "good burner behavior" you purport to encourage.


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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby BBadger » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:46 pm

knowmad wrote:Extrapolation, I am in contact with about 300 burners on a daylie basis, and a significant portion of those people have admited/braged about buying twice as manny tickets as they need then selling them in the weeks before the burn.
thus 15-20% of 300 = 45-50 ppl X 167 = 7 515 ppl and factoring for compassion at a generous 50% we come up to, 3 757
Thus thousands.


Mark Twain was definitely correct about ranking statistics worse than damned lies.
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Re: Another Scalper Discussion

Postby trilobyte » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:53 pm

300 people of any kind on a daily basis seems pretty tedious. At just 3 minutes apiece, that would take more hours than there are in a day, wouldn't it?
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:54 pm

BBadger wrote:
knowmad wrote:Extrapolation, I am in contact with about 300 burners on a daylie basis, and a significant portion of those people have admited/braged about buying twice as manny tickets as they need then selling them in the weeks before the burn.
thus 15-20% of 300 = 45-50 ppl X 167 = 7 515 ppl and factoring for compassion at a generous 50% we come up to, 3 757
Thus thousands.


Mark Twain was definitely correct about ranking statistics worse than damned lies.

Twain was known for saying whitty things. And prolly knew about as much about Calculus as you do. so the fact that you like him is summed up in anouther quote of his "All you need is ignorance and confidence and the success is sure."
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Re: Another Scalper Discussion

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:01 pm

trilobyte wrote:300 people of any kind on a daily basis seems pretty tedious. At just 3 minutes apiece, that would take more hours than there are in a day, wouldn't it?

300 X 3 /60 = 15hrs > 24hrs.

So no. Go back to moderating, or work on your math skills, but quit singling me and my Idea out for flaming ridicule, just because you don't believe it.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby BBadger » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:37 pm

knowmad wrote:Twain was known for saying whitty things. And prolly knew about as much about Calculus as you do.


He probably didn't, but I'll let you think that.

so the fact that you like him is summed up in anouther quote of his "All you need is ignorance and confidence and the success is sure."


:roll:

So no. Go back to moderating, or work on your math skills, but quit singling me and my Idea out for flaming ridicule, just because you don't believe it.


You act as if you don't deserve it.
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Re: Another Scalper Discussion

Postby trilobyte » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:39 pm

Sorry, long day of working on projects, my math was totally off (it's still a lot of time, though). As for singling you out, I'm not doing that either - my apologies if it comes of that way. I moved what I hope were the relevant posts from the other thread over here so the discussion/debate could continue without giving an endless stream of bumps/promotion for the scalper.
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby knowmad » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:46 pm

BBadger wrote:
knowmad wrote:Twain was known for saying whitty things. And prolly knew about as much about Calculus as you do.


He probably didn't, but I'll let you think that.

so the fact that you like him is summed up in anouther quote of his "All you need is ignorance and confidence and the success is sure."


:roll:

So no. Go back to moderating, or work on your math skills, but quit singling me and my Idea out for flaming ridicule, just because you don't believe it.


You act as if you don't deserve it.

Of course I don't.
If you got a beef with my Idea, put yours up agianst it.
What you are doing is known as; argumentum ad hominem, an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it

So far other than attacking me and my Ideas as if they are one and the same, how about defending your own unsubstantiated claims and reasoning?
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Re: OFFERED: BURNING MAN TICKETS

Postby BBadger » Sun Aug 21, 2011 10:35 pm

knowmad wrote:Of course I don't.
If you got a beef with my Idea, put yours up agianst it.
What you are doing is known as; argumentum ad hominem, an attempt to negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief of the person advocating it


This, coming from someone calling those who thinks a certain way "douches."

Yeah, thanks for the dictionary definition. Still, I've been attacking your ideas from the start, and calling you out on your claims. When I label your ideas as naive it's because it only reflects how you think the world should be, rather than what would actually be effective. Thinking that saying (loudly) "no it's not" puts the matter to rest is ridiculous at best, and yes, it reflects upon the speaker (you).

So far other than attacking me and my Ideas as if they are one and the same, how about defending your own unsubstantiated claims and reasoning?


Being what? My claims are already substantiated by the evidence that already exists, namely the long period that tickets were available, the small number of scalpers on eBay and craigslist, and the way market economics work. They're not some future speculation based on some extrapolation of "300 people" you're supposedly in contact with daily (Facebook friends list?) and keeping tallies on their ticket transactions. Nor some contradictory statements about the quality of certain people attending BM that have not even had the opportunity to show their colors. Yeah, my claims are based on facts on the ground, not speculations in the air.
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