Profiteering at Burning Man

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Igneouss » Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:30 am

In the olden days Burning Man wasn't an event that attracted many people with the intent to make money off of the gathering.
Times have changed.
The profit motive continues to insinuate itself in any number of ways.

Here's two very different examples:
From the theme camp list (note that this is the first one I happened upon) we have "88"
Description:
We bring light, levity, a bit of boom and a bunch of magic. Swing by for a wiggle, a giggle, a chat or a respite.
Hometown: Silver Spring, MD
URL: http://www.eightyeightdc.com
Contact: (edited out by igneouss)

Sounds nice enough. But go to their website. They are a commercial, for profit venture with several related businesses. Very progressive to be sure. But...

When is it OK to use a business name for a theme camp name? If WalMart had a theme camp named WalMart and had a big party and some cool swag with the theme camp logo on it... That would never happen. But it does happen. Here it is. Now.

The differnce seems to revolve around weather or not the theme camp has history and are 'good people/burners'. By all reports the '88' folks fit this description.

But what's OK? Obviously, selling stuff at BM is over the line. But what if simply being at BM is a form of business promotion? What if they do nothing 'bad' at BM but trumpet the fact that they are a super cool company that is so progressive that they all go to BM? Where is the line. Is it wrong?

Recalling the furor over Google a few years ago and how they were welcome at BM but could not display the company name or logo anywhere... etc. Seems like '88' has stayed under the radar on this. The very fact that the theme camp list provides the link to the business is over the line for me. But maybe not for others. Obviously, it's ok with the Org.

BTW: there are several other examples of commercial businesses that are theme camps at BM. Lots of grey area here. So when is it OK for a theme camp to make a profit? Is it ok if it only happens off the playa? Is it ok if the name is different on the theme camp? What if the theme camp 'levers' it's popularity on the playa to wrangle BM related profitable operations off the playa? But shouldn't off playa BM events hire burners when they need a service? Things get fuzzy.

Example number two: Generically, this is more common. Provding a service to burners for a fee.
Bikes for Sale! ‘Trek 7200’ Hybrid Bike $xxx (MSRP $xxx) Advance sales only.
• We’re buying bikes “as a collective,” on behalf of individuals (and whole camps!)
• You pay us; we pay the vendor and the bike is yours! You own it! Not a rental!

Bike transport from San Francisco to Burning Man!
• $xxx per bike round-trip. Open to everyone!

“The Bike Lounge” at 9:00 and Plaza!
• Bar, mist, music, piano, shade, and tools. Open to everyone.

We’re looking for members! Join us!
• 30-person maximum. $xxx per person.

Hurry! Prices increase August 22!"


This is from an email that several folks have received. This is another example of grey areas. When I see stuff like this I immediately want to know where the money is going. Is someone making a profit selling bikes? Transporting bikes? Selling spots in a theme camp? Is it all no-profit? What if, at then end of the day, an organizer has money left over? I know enough about the theme camp I am associated with to know that there is no money left over. But we are not advertising or providing services for cash. Is that the line?

Side Bar: The camp I am associated with has spun off two commercial enterprises. But those entitees do not share our name, nor are they advertised at BM. It's easy to imagine that the concetration of smart, creative people that IS BM should spin off enterprises of all sorts. This is one very important affect that BM has on the default world.

We all know about ice and coffee. Other obvious profitable enterprises: porta potties, equipment and power rental, etc. The DPW spends a lot of money to bring in very big generatos and equipment.

So is paying someone $50 to transport a bike bad? Does it depend on weather or not they make a profit? Better the money go to a buner than to UPS?

I buy ice on the Playa.

I travel 2600 miles to get to BRC. I would pay for water on the Playa in a heart beat. We all know about the hassel of squeezing a ton of water into a cramped vehicle.

Would a theme camp be willing to have a commercial enterprise set up the camp? Would this be cricket? Lots of people have RVs delivered to the Playa ready to occupy.

----------------

So if an enterprise is dependent on BM does that mean it should not be 'for profit'? Is it ok to have a commercial enterprise name on a theme camp (even if they do nothing commercial at BM)?

There is a lot of money circulating in the BM universe. It's a big enough pot that it will (and does) attract business. That's not likely to change. The subtle ways that a profit is generated from/at BM is probably both a source of amusement and concern to Larry and the board. It will be interesting to watch...
Last edited by Igneouss on Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
Basic b/e analysis:
2005 $243K
06 $855K
07 $1.0M
08 $1.1M
09 $0
10 $1.1M
11 $1.2M
12 $1.2M
That’s $6.8M that thousands of volunteers deserve to know about. Capitalism is alive at BM. Tickets are the commodity. Others have estimated higher profits.
User avatar
Igneouss
 
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:27 pm
Location: Sterling VA and Twickenham, Middlesex, Eng.

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby jkisha » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:15 am

So are you complaining or promoting? You gave the link and contact info for the first example, what better publicity could they ask for. Not to mention that I think it's against the TOS to list other people's email addresses. I'm just surprised you haven't listed the kickstarter programs for theme camps and art cars among your examples.
JK
Image
http://www.mudskippercafe.com
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle.
Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
User avatar
jkisha
 
Posts: 11403
Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 10:00 pm
Location: Los Angeles
Burning Since: 2007
Camp Name: Mudskipper Cafe

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby trilobyte » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:24 am

Since the info's taken from the public theme camp list, I'll allow it (though as jkisha pointed out, all the links do is give them additional publicity). I am going to pull the details of some of the adverts.
User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10695
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:54 pm
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby trilobyte » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:27 am

There have been camps running as small companies and businesses participating in the cottage industry of Burning Man prep for as long as I've been participating (2004). Black Rock Hardware dude who does on playa delivery and tech support, an endless sea of pre-sold meals (which, apparently, are less offensively commercial so long as it's healthy food), bicycle transport logistics outfits, and then look at Uchronia in 2006. The mighty waffle was largely the physical construction of the logo art that for the designer's default world company (post-burn, while trying to find out more about the project, I was kind of shocked to see the design on motorbike racing team of all things). Root Society also kind of made me a little twitchy. While they'd been on the playa for several years, suddenly in 2006 they got much bigger, and it continued at a more than feverish pace. I'd taken a few years off of Burning Man, but when looking up their site this year to see what they were up to, I was taken aback to see that they operate as a full-blown event production company, leveraging their years at Burning Man to sell their expertise. This year, while FractalNation Village is doing some really interesting things, it's cringeworthy to see on their lineup that each night is sponsored by one default-world company or another. Hooray that those entities are willing to under-write the costs, but very sad to see that they feel the need to put their names/brands on it.
User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10695
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:54 pm
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby junglesmacks » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:29 am

FWIW, I did notice that "bike camp" listing and do think it's pretty lame and not so much in a grey area but a clear black and white area of exploitation.

As for the "88" camp using the number 88 and how it corresponds to their event company, I personally don't have a problem with that. It's not like it's a recognized brand or something. They're local event promoters that throw shows in their area. It's not like they're selling 88 brand energy drink or something.
Savannah wrote:It sounds freaky & wrong, so you need to do it.
User avatar
junglesmacks
 
Posts: 5809
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 9:54 pm
Location: Orlando, FL/Kailua, HI
Camp Name: Your mom's tent

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby junglesmacks » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:30 am

trilobyte wrote:This year, while FractalNation Village is doing some really interesting things, it's cringeworthy to see on their lineup that each night is sponsored by one default-world company or another. Hooray that those entities are willing to under-write the costs, but very sad to see that they feel the need to put their names/brands on it.


???

Link please?

EDIT: Ok.. I'm seeing this now on other sites such as this. Cross promotion of for-profit events is pretty lame and shouldn't be tolerated.. I'm in agreement.
Last edited by junglesmacks on Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
Savannah wrote:It sounds freaky & wrong, so you need to do it.
User avatar
junglesmacks
 
Posts: 5809
Joined: Wed May 26, 2010 9:54 pm
Location: Orlando, FL/Kailua, HI
Camp Name: Your mom's tent

R*** S******

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:33 am

gee trilo, we didn't leverage anything, and it aint like every other large sound crew out there doesnt work the rest of the year...

opel? coast to coast? Helloooooo?

anyway, a little hypocritical coming from an organization owned by Dr. Dre... :twisted:
one nation, under a groove.
User avatar
Roberto Dobbisano
 
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:54 pm
Location: Dobbidossola, Italy.

not quite the same...

Postby H.G.Crosby » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:44 am

the name "Root Society" is not being used for the production company FYI.

http://www.boston.com/business/technolo ... om_mo.html
Once I noticed I was on fire, I decided to relax and enjoy the fall™
User avatar
H.G.Crosby
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:47 pm
Location: Boston, New York, Paris, Tangiers

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby trilobyte » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:52 am

Root Society (regardless of the name on the paperwork, that's the name and domain they're marketing under) is hardly the only or the worst examples out there (if one wanted to really look at it, though I was just listing things that sprang immediately to mind). However I disagree with both the examples you cited, unless I'm missing something...

Opel Productions operates events off the playa, Opulent Temple is the Burning Man camp, whose only events outside of BRC are camp fundraisers.

Does Coast to Coast operate a camp? As I understood it, that's an artist management company. The worst they're guilty of is handling logistics for their campmates (and this year, not getting tickets in time), and listing their artists' Burning Man dates on the schedules on their web sites.
User avatar
trilobyte
Site Admin
 
Posts: 10695
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:54 pm
Location: San Francisco
Burning Since: 2004
Camp Name: Eridu Society

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Ugly Dougly » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:19 am

Igneouss wrote:In the olden days Burning Man wasn't an event that attracted many people with the intent to make money off of the gathering.
Times have changed.

Glad you're not in denial about it.

Change is inevitable; get out the surfboards! :)
Please to visit PAGE TWO.
User avatar
Ugly Dougly
 
Posts: 16353
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 9:31 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Burning Since: 1996

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:13 am

my point is trilo, in a round about way, is there are ALOT of corporate entities who utilize their burning man experience as "Street Cred"...whether that is wall st or the esplanade is not important, but how that is used in "Marketing" oneself or corporation is...it is a razor's edge indeed, and up until now seems to be holding. To the Bmorg's credit, the commercialization of Burning Man has been AT THE BARE MINIMUM that an event of this magnitude would expect to see. I for one disdain Corporate logos, but their money is Green, if you know what i mean, and ARTISTS need patronage....sad but true, we are prostitutes, whether to kickstarter, or Benefactors, i guess it's all about finding the right pimp...
breathe deep, the playa is the dust of your ancestors

A gift for the Playa
User avatar
Simon of the Playa
 
Posts: 13873
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Rochester, Nevada.
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Eric » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:32 am

Let me just say that you're going to LOVE the BRC Weekly this year....
Survival Guide * First Timers Guide * Ticket Info

Regarding Ticket Scalpers and Scammers

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Eric ShutterSlut
BRC Weekly
User avatar
Eric
Moderator
 
Posts: 7117
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: BRC Weekly

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Igneouss » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:17 am

My intent here is to foster discussion.

Some things mentioned probably pass the 'community standards' test. Some don't.
I suppose that the fundemental issue is that commercialism (just like rules) creep in. In the case of 'rules' the Org has (justifiably in my opinion) shown that they are a necessary result of growth/size. In the case of commercialism the driver is the almighty dollar. 50,000 people spend an average of what? $1500/ea? to attend BM. Lots and lots of dollars.

If you hop in the way-back machine you find the cacophony society and the early burners in search of a place without rules and commercialism.

As for the link to 88. Folks need to check out the 4 or 5 related businesses, some of which use the name '88' in various forms. They sound like good people, I've been told by reliable sources that they are good people/good burners. It helps make them an interesting case.
Basic b/e analysis:
2005 $243K
06 $855K
07 $1.0M
08 $1.1M
09 $0
10 $1.1M
11 $1.2M
12 $1.2M
That’s $6.8M that thousands of volunteers deserve to know about. Capitalism is alive at BM. Tickets are the commodity. Others have estimated higher profits.
User avatar
Igneouss
 
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:27 pm
Location: Sterling VA and Twickenham, Middlesex, Eng.

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Igneouss » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:18 am

Eric wrote:Let me just say that you're going to LOVE the BRC Weekly this year....


I was planning to volunteer to deliver the paper this year.
Basic b/e analysis:
2005 $243K
06 $855K
07 $1.0M
08 $1.1M
09 $0
10 $1.1M
11 $1.2M
12 $1.2M
That’s $6.8M that thousands of volunteers deserve to know about. Capitalism is alive at BM. Tickets are the commodity. Others have estimated higher profits.
User avatar
Igneouss
 
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:27 pm
Location: Sterling VA and Twickenham, Middlesex, Eng.

a horse is a horse of course of course.

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:26 am

Eric wrote:Let me just say that you're going to LOVE the BRC Weekly this year....



lemme guess, sponsored by Trojan(tm)?
one nation, under a groove.
User avatar
Roberto Dobbisano
 
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:54 pm
Location: Dobbidossola, Italy.

community standards...

Postby H.G.Crosby » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:40 am

Igneouss wrote:My intent here is to foster discussion.

Some things mentioned probably pass the 'community standards' test. Some don't.
I suppose that the fundemental issue is that commercialism (just like rules) creep in. In the case of 'rules' the Org has (justifiably in my opinion) shown that they are a necessary result of growth/size. In the case of commercialism the driver is the almighty dollar. 50,000 people spend an average of what? $1500/ea? to attend BM. Lots and lots of dollars.

If you hop in the way-back machine you find the cacophony society and the early burners in search of a place without rules and commercialism.

As for the link to 88. Folks need to check out the 4 or 5 related businesses, some of which use the name '88' in various forms. They sound like good people, I've been told by reliable sources that they are good people/good burners. It helps make them an interesting case.
Attachments
horse.jpg
horse.jpg (91.16 KiB) Viewed 1740 times
Once I noticed I was on fire, I decided to relax and enjoy the fall™
User avatar
H.G.Crosby
 
Posts: 1671
Joined: Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:47 pm
Location: Boston, New York, Paris, Tangiers

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Igneouss » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:59 am

In my opinion art is a seprate issue. Donations don't bother me. There are lots of examples of significant donations being made to theme camps by 'benefactors'.
Basic b/e analysis:
2005 $243K
06 $855K
07 $1.0M
08 $1.1M
09 $0
10 $1.1M
11 $1.2M
12 $1.2M
That’s $6.8M that thousands of volunteers deserve to know about. Capitalism is alive at BM. Tickets are the commodity. Others have estimated higher profits.
User avatar
Igneouss
 
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:27 pm
Location: Sterling VA and Twickenham, Middlesex, Eng.

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:12 pm

thats all fine and dandy, however, at Root Society things were much more egalitarian...Everyone from the camp funders to the lowliest DJ all ATE THE SAME FOOD, USED THE SAME CRAPPERS and HAD THE SAME SLEEPING ARRANGEMENTS...the tipis were assigned by tenure, not donations.

no extra king sized toilets either.

just sayin'...


oh and EVERYBODY worked their asses off except for the really really pretty sparkleponies...
breathe deep, the playa is the dust of your ancestors

A gift for the Playa
User avatar
Simon of the Playa
 
Posts: 13873
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 6:25 pm
Location: Rochester, Nevada.
Burning Since: 1996
Camp Name: La Guilde des Hashischins

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Eric » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:24 pm

Igneouss wrote:
Eric wrote:Let me just say that you're going to LOVE the BRC Weekly this year....


I was planning to volunteer to deliver the paper this year.


We would love that!

Our base is Fandango, Esplanade & 4. We finally decided to forgo using the RV we sleep in as the office as well (seriously- who thinks we want fucking bad poetry about the Man at 4am again? ), so our office will be "newspaper appropriate": the Fandango bar (Slow Burn Lounge), right on the Esplanade.

Come on by and pick up a batch! We just ask that you try to get them to the back streets & the 9 side of the city if possible. Our neighborhood will be buried in 'em.

(and isn't a "king size toilet" just a handicap JOT? Oooooh, glamour!)
Survival Guide * First Timers Guide * Ticket Info

Regarding Ticket Scalpers and Scammers

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Eric ShutterSlut
BRC Weekly
User avatar
Eric
Moderator
 
Posts: 7117
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: BRC Weekly

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:27 pm

(and isn't a "king size toilet" just a handicap JOT? Oooooh, glamour!)



i think it comes with a personal assistant as well.


Image
one nation, under a groove.
User avatar
Roberto Dobbisano
 
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:54 pm
Location: Dobbidossola, Italy.

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Igneouss » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:40 pm

No worries! I'm at 7:30 and Esp or A (in that area anyway. I think we have the entire block LOL). So I can get papers out in that area and beyond toward 9...
Cheers

Eric wrote:
Igneouss wrote:
Eric wrote:Let me just say that you're going to LOVE the BRC Weekly this year....


I was planning to volunteer to deliver the paper this year.


We would love that!

Our base is Fandango, Esplanade & 4. We finally decided to forgo using the RV we sleep in as the office as well (seriously- who thinks we want fucking bad poetry about the Man at 4am again? ), so our office will be "newspaper appropriate": the Fandango bar (Slow Burn Lounge), right on the Esplanade.

Come on by and pick up a batch! We just ask that you try to get them to the back streets & the 9 side of the city if possible. Our neighborhood will be buried in 'em.

(and isn't a "king size toilet" just a handicap JOT? Oooooh, glamour!)
Basic b/e analysis:
2005 $243K
06 $855K
07 $1.0M
08 $1.1M
09 $0
10 $1.1M
11 $1.2M
12 $1.2M
That’s $6.8M that thousands of volunteers deserve to know about. Capitalism is alive at BM. Tickets are the commodity. Others have estimated higher profits.
User avatar
Igneouss
 
Posts: 503
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:27 pm
Location: Sterling VA and Twickenham, Middlesex, Eng.

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:41 pm

Eric wrote:(and isn't a "king size toilet" just a handicap JOT? Oooooh, glamour!)

I'm livin' the dream...
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37472
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby Eric » Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:31 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Eric wrote:(and isn't a "king size toilet" just a handicap JOT? Oooooh, glamour!)

I'm livin' the dream...


I saw the gold plated rims on your rig- you can't fool me!


running and ducking
Survival Guide * First Timers Guide * Ticket Info

Regarding Ticket Scalpers and Scammers

It's a camping trip in the desert, not the redemption of the fallen world - Cryptofishist

Eric ShutterSlut
BRC Weekly
User avatar
Eric
Moderator
 
Posts: 7117
Joined: Wed Sep 03, 2003 9:45 pm
Burning Since: 2003
Camp Name: BRC Weekly

For Realz.

Postby Roberto Dobbisano » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:48 am

Oh Look Honey, Mints on the pillow!

In the spirit of the Greeks, we at Trojan Horse Headquarters have devised a way to help you enjoy a supreme Playa experience, while ensuring the Trojan Horse is fully realized. As with all things at Burning Man, this is a not-for profit experience. Your participation in Troy Camp is a way to collectively pool our human resources, and reasonable expenses for a (plush) week in the desert - so we can all enjoy the extracurriculars without worrying about cooking a meal, or when to sponge bath.

Our core team has 10+ years of playa experience, and has collectively housed over 1,000 people in the course of our history, in relative luxury in Black Rock City. You want:

* Hot showers
* Running water to wash your hands and face
* Meal plans – 3 per day, one hot
* View decks
* Sheltered and community gathering spaces
* High-rise condo sleeping accommodations
* Toilets
* Views views views


WE'VE GOT IT ALL....
This year, please consider letting us show you the softer side of Black Rock City, and check your cares at the gate. Our gift is creating a community where your needs will be met -- with style. Our crew of engineers, architects, interior designers and builders is gifting to the Trojan Horse our services towards the infrastructure of a camp for all of its residents.

Consider what it typically costs to shelter yourself at Burning Man for the week. Then add a premium for all the services we are offering, unique to any other camp, not to mention the friendships and community you'll foster. Think of the investment in trucks, pump systems, showers, generators, refrigeration, evaporation ponds, lighting, building materials, shade cloth, carpets, sound systems, chandeliers, etc.

While we've raised enough funds from our community to purchase wood, tools, insurance and leased space to build the Horse, there are still many attributes of this interactive art installation that require funding. We hope our gift of a comfortable residential community is a place you choose to be a part of.

We understand you have a lot of choices with your experience -- and we think after 10 years, we've come up with a fantastic place for you to call home. We hope you'll join us, and your contributions can be counted on to help bring our Horse to life.

Support the Trojan Horse -- by camping at Troy in 2011.
one nation, under a groove.
User avatar
Roberto Dobbisano
 
Posts: 2658
Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:54 pm
Location: Dobbidossola, Italy.

Re: For Realz.

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Aug 20, 2011 8:43 am

Roberto Dobbisano wrote:Our core team has 10+ years of playa experience,

I don't know how big the core team is, but if it's three people that's two three-years and one four year...
Simon's real sig line?

Embrace the Sock

Winners never quilt, quilters never win...
User avatar
theCryptofishist
 
Posts: 37472
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 10:28 am
Location: In Exile
Burning Since: 2017

Re: Profiteering at Burning Man

Postby BBadger » Sat Aug 20, 2011 9:15 pm

Aggregate experience claims are only slightly less ridiculous than "rolling hunger strikes."
"The essence of tyranny is not iron law. It is capricious law." -- Christopher Hitchens

Hate reading my replies? Click here to add me to your plonk (foe) list.
User avatar
BBadger
 
Posts: 3980
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2011 11:37 am
Location: (near) Portland, OR, USA
Burning Since: I'm not sure


Return to Politics & Philosophy

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests