To preserve the Burn... we must...

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby dignified_speck » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:56 pm

...make another city.


An identically shaped city to the north or south of the other. I am forever scarred in lovely memories of the playa and I can't endure the idea that it is going to sell out or become a commodity because there isn't enough room for all the creative beautiful people. The Burn is too big, we have too many goodly creative people and I highly suggest we turn our imaginations towards this. Expanding the city, as has happened in the past, is too much of a pain in the ass. The playa could support another city. Maybe 2, each one with a 40,000 person capacity. One man in the middle of both, two men at each location, one temple or two, it can be worked out as we see fit.

Thoughts?

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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby Elderberry » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:08 pm

Another stupid idea. Even if there is enough square footage to support a larger footprint the access roads won't. Ever thought about how much the tickets would cost if BMORG would have to fund that endeavor? Then what would happen to all of your (usually poor) artistic friends? :shock:
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby The CO » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:38 pm

To preserve the Burn... we must...

Stop telling people what to do and how to run the event?

Just a guess.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby Dr Helix » Wed Jul 27, 2011 7:49 pm

jkisha wrote:Another stupid idea. Even if there is enough square footage to support a larger footprint the access roads won't. Ever thought about how much the tickets would cost if BMORG would have to fund that endeavor? Then what would happen to all of your (usually poor) artistic friends? :shock:


JK, you are easily the most tell-it-like-it-is voice here on eplaya. You are my hero. If you're in the 5:30 spoke about 2100 ft off the man on Wednesday about sunset, look for a large, steel heart shaped arch with intertwined roses that I built. I'll be underneath it getting married and would love it if you attended. Otherwise I hope to see you at the meet and greet on Thursday.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby oneeyeddick » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:21 pm

If we start another city can we call it "DICKTOWN"?
We have an obligation to make space for everyone, we have no obligation to make that space pleasant.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby AntiM » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:27 pm

Orphan burns. The Utah one is shaping up beautifully. But then, we have amazing burners in Utah!
we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. . . .
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby Eric » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:32 pm

dignified_speck wrote:The playa could support another city. Maybe 2, each one with a 40,000 person capacity.


Actually, no, the playa couldn't support another city of 40,000 people. It's a very fragile desert environment and that the reason there is a population limit, and had been since 1997 roughly. This is an anomalous year as we're under the same limits as last year (no population growth), but in most years a small amount of growth is figured in.

Hit a regional if you want something different, but the Main Event isn't changing.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby International Incident » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:33 pm



JK, you are easily the most tell-it-like-it-is voice here on eplaya. You are my hero.


and mine as well!
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby Elderberry » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:40 pm

Now I am getting all embarrassed. The compliment is truly not warranted, it's just that all these damn "I want to buy a ticket" threads are putting me in a really snarky mood. You can hardly find the important threads relevant to getting ready for the burn.

But thank you both. :oops:
melaniejane wrote:


JK, you are easily the most tell-it-like-it-is voice here on eplaya. You are my hero.


and mine as well!
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby dignified_speck » Wed Jul 27, 2011 10:51 pm

Well...

Talking about these things is pretty much the only option we have. I think defacing an idea as 'stupid' or implying that i'm somehow telling the well established "they" how to run the burn is perfectly fine; if this was 4chan and we were there to get a laugh from someone who was really off base. I know I am not because people are scalping tickets for up to $500 dollars as we speak, and it sucks hard that the event is becoming even more privileged because of this.

I suppose a person across the internet is just a guy, someone you don't know.. in some naive way I was hoping for a conversation with someone who's been made humble on the playa - rather than a circle-jerk of priceless know-it-alls with no social skills. Either I'm being trolled hard or you're just assholes, proudly no doubt..

The arguments you all present hold weight but I'm unconvinced that my concept is without merit. There's nothing creative about disqualifying my concept, I think it is light weight thinking to trash rather than imagine.

To be honest I was intending to get a feel of what people thought about that idea. It seems unfortunate that no one has any measure of manners or creative drive - pretty fucking sad guys. Based on your responses I can assume you've been delving deeply on the many issues and I trust you will work it out.

Excuse me if I seem offended, I really expected more civility. It's the 2nd time I've ever gotten rudeness from total strangers in 5 years in this community. If this reads like a guilt trip, forgive my tone, what I meant to say was.. Go suck it :D
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby Eric » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:31 pm

dignified_speck wrote:I know I am not because people are scalping tickets for up to $500 dollars as we speak, and it sucks hard that the event is becoming even more privileged because of this.


How is the event becoming more privileged?

Really- think about it: up until July 25th (3 days ago) ALL THE TICKETS SOLD FOR THE SAME PRICES THEY DID LAST YEAR!!

That's 8 months of tickets selling at the same price, and 3 DAYS of them getting more expensive. The lower tier prices haven't changed in (3?) years, the upper ones increased, but slowly.

The only change is that this one year the tickets sold out early. The only people who are making it more "privileged" are the panicked hoards paying whatever they can afford because suddenly they need to be there this year.

Most of the "real Burners" I know who don't have tickets, both veteran & virgin, think it sucks and are working to find one at close to ticket price. The only people I've seen bitching and moaning are the people who think they have a right to be there, and are paying any price to get there- and they're the ones making the event more elitist.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby Dr Helix » Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:50 pm

dignified_speck wrote:Well...

Talking about these things is pretty much the only option we have. I think defacing an idea as 'stupid' or implying that i'm somehow telling the well established "they" how to run the burn is perfectly fine; if this was 4chan and we were there to get a laugh from someone who was really off base. I know I am not because people are scalping tickets for up to $500 dollars as we speak, and it sucks hard that the event is becoming even more privileged because of this.

I suppose a person across the internet is just a guy, someone you don't know.. in some naive way I was hoping for a conversation with someone who's been made humble on the playa - rather than a circle-jerk of priceless know-it-alls with no social skills. Either I'm being trolled hard or you're just assholes, proudly no doubt..

The arguments you all present hold weight but I'm unconvinced that my concept is without merit. There's nothing creative about disqualifying my concept, I think it is light weight thinking to trash rather than imagine.

To be honest I was intending to get a feel of what people thought about that idea. It seems unfortunate that no one has any measure of manners or creative drive - pretty fucking sad guys. Based on your responses I can assume you've been delving deeply on the many issues and I trust you will work it out.

Excuse me if I seem offended, I really expected more civility. It's the 2nd time I've ever gotten rudeness from total strangers in 5 years in this community. If this reads like a guilt trip, forgive my tone, what I meant to say was.. Go suck it :D


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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby The CO » Thu Jul 28, 2011 7:26 am

Dignified_Speck-

Apologies for the snark. Please remember that some of us that have been on this board for more than 1 week are getting pissy about all the new people in the hood. It's like when a gang of carnies moves into a gated community.

That said, I'll go ahead and be wet blanket on this one. Your idea of 2 cities.... Already happened. You're over a decade late. In 1997(98? The years blur together after a while), there existed the Techno Ghetto. An entirely separate city for all the rave type stuff. It worked so well that they have done it every year.... Oh yeah, they never did it again. Might be a reason for that.

Also, look at the logistical side of things. The line to get into the event is miles long, as there is ONE (1) road leading in. If you double the amount of people, the line to get will start around Reno.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby dignified_speck » Thu Jul 28, 2011 2:02 pm

OK, points well stated. Thank you to those who kept it cool, I was reluctant to check the thread due to my last response being sort of inflammatory. I find it hilarious how I avoid negativity yet crave dumping it back when it arrives on my doorstep. Thanks for the apology too, the image of clowns in a closed community was fucking brilliant man.

I think I get where you're coming from visa vi the idea being redundant and impractical. It might be a lot of blah blah to some, yet I am genuinely worried about the survival of this culture in a society that makes everything have a commodity value. Maybe business interests aren't at the burn, yet the burn itself is a commodity, more so due to the demand; My 2 cities idea, unoriginal as it was, aimed to increase the quantity of tickets and lower the price. Logistically - it would be an absolute nightmare to plan and implement. And to whomever suggested it, yes, I will be looking for a regional burn as I can't make this year (fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck - fuck it...).

Oddly, the people on craigslist who are looking for tickets right now are the ones who are offering to pay the higher prices, though I have seen some posts from scalpers. One guy offered 30 FREE tickets, like a God among men. People are trying to buy their way to the front of the line, I think it is unavoidable and hence beyond moral review.

For the short term, I hope your immolated hominid is outstanding. Would anyone be willing to share a particular idea that would help preserve the de facto principles of burning man? e.g. keeping the free market out and keeping it a layperson accessible event?

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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby inProgress » Thu Jul 28, 2011 5:59 pm

Eric wrote:
dignified_speck wrote:I know I am not because people are scalping tickets for up to $500 dollars as we speak, and it sucks hard that the event is becoming even more privileged because of this.



That's 8 months of tickets selling at the same price, and 3 DAYS of them getting more expensive. The lower tier prices haven't changed in (3?) years, the upper ones increased, but slowly.

The only change is that this one year the tickets sold out early. The only people who are making it more "privileged" are the panicked hoards paying whatever they can afford because suddenly they need to be there this year.
.



Exactly! My mind is so boggled by all these goings on. I have a few friends without tickets, they're cautiously hopeful but are completely aware that they're responsible for their situation.

In many ways I feel for the people who are put in a bind, but the desire to externalize the blame to someone (ANYONE!) else is sorely lacking in maturity. At a some point they're going to have to chin up to their mistake.

I guess I don't really have a problem with people buying these crazily priced tickets in general, I just hope the correlation between entitlement and ticket price is weak.... :|
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby bluesbob » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:29 pm

Sacrifice a Birgin.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby trilobyte » Thu Jul 28, 2011 10:31 pm

IMO, it's a terrible idea, and as has already been pointed out, it's been done before (it was a spectacular failure). And whether you do it in one big pile, two piles, or 80,000 piles, getting 80,000 people out to the same general remote location during the same time is just a strain that the local infrastructure (including the roads) simply could not take.

Don't worry, this year's burn is going to be great. Every year it seems there's a healthy chorus of "its all downhill from here" or "<insert issue> is going to be the death of Burning Man" and every other manner of prophesy of doom you can imagine. And yet, it still stands. The event changes, grows, mutates, turns into something else, then turns back into itself again, and then wriggles into something completely new. It'll do that again next year.

If anything, I hope this year's ticket fiasco will force some folks (veterans and newbies alike) to learn a valuable lesson about radical self reliance. And maybe even a thing or two about planning.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby The CO » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:20 am

I must object:

dignified_speck wrote:the image of clowns in a closed community was fucking brilliant man.


I said carnies, not clowns. BIG fuckin difference.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby Savannah » Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:43 am

Carnies. Circus folk. Nomads, you know.

Smell like cabbage.

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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby capjbadger » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:41 am

The CO wrote:I must object:

dignified_speck wrote:the image of clowns in a closed community was fucking brilliant man.


I said carnies, not clowns. BIG fuckin difference.

BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE:

Carny:
Image

Clown:
Image

:twisted:

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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby JCarter » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:35 am

dignified_speck wrote:I think I get where you're coming from visa vi the idea being redundant and impractical. It might be a lot of blah blah to some, yet I am genuinely worried about the survival of this culture in a society that makes everything have a commodity value. Maybe business interests aren't at the burn, yet the burn itself is a commodity, more so due to the demand; My 2 cities idea, unoriginal as it was, aimed to increase the quantity of tickets and lower the price. Logistically - it would be an absolute nightmare to plan and implement. And to whomever suggested it, yes, I will be looking for a regional burn as I can't make this year (fuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuckfuck - fuck it...).

For the short term, I hope your immolated hominid is outstanding. Would anyone be willing to share a particular idea that would help preserve the de facto principles of burning man? e.g. keeping the free market out and keeping it a layperson accessible event?

Pepper


Well, I think that the solution is already in place and is actually working to at least some extent.

It looks to me like one of the main reasons for regionals is to deal with this very problem.

Think about it for a second. For every person that gets involved with the Burning Man regional network and only does stuff with the regionals, that is one less person that either doesn't go to Burning Man at all or only goes once and doesn't go again. The numbers already are starting to add up as there are regional events that are getting over 2000 people(Burning Flipside) or have to be run more than once a year and sell out at a phenomenal rate of speed(Playa Del Fuego).

If things continue at this rate(increasing ticket prices, increasing travel costs, increase in the scale and quality of regionals, etc.) I think that people outside of a 200 radius of Black Rock City will become less and less interested in going to the Main Event. As I don't know the percentages of attendance based on geography I can't say how much of a reduction there will be but I predict in the next 10 years or so that Burning Man will be mostly people who can drive there in no more than 2 or 3 hours.

Even though I think that this works very well as a stop-gap measure it fails to address one thing(in regards to population control). A lot of the people who go to Burning Man are primarily 2-3 hours away. The same tactic could be suggested for people who are in San Francisco but then that would run the risk of driving too many people away from the playa which would kill the event.

I wish I had answers but right now I only have questions. :(
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby illy dilly » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:15 pm

When I first read this post, I thought "Duh, its already happening in more than 1 city"
But I read it as two cities in two different places. Not two cities, a few miles from each other.

The first year I went to Burning Man the veterans I went with told me a story, at the time I think they believed it, and so did I- but I've come to learn it was an urban legend. It goes like this.

Every year more people come to BRC, so eventually there is going to be too many people. But every year the Man gets a little smaller, and his platform a little bigger. In the mean time there are more and more regionals every year. When the Man shrinks back down to his original height of the first burn, 6-8' tall, it will be the last burn in BRC. The goal is that eventually the Man will not burn in BRC, but at different regionals around the world. Every summer, and winters, you will try to go make it to a city or place that you have not been to a regional at. And on years you can't go to another city, you will help host your local regional.

Unless the folks that told me this know something the rest of us don't, I think this is just something they believed or came up with. Could it be true? possibly. Is it the BMorgs plan, doubtfully.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby Eric » Fri Jul 29, 2011 3:25 pm

capjbadger wrote:
The CO wrote:I must object:

dignified_speck wrote:the image of clowns in a closed community was fucking brilliant man.


I said carnies, not clowns. BIG fuckin difference.

BIG FUCKING DIFFERENCE:

Carny:
Image

Clown:
Image

:twisted:

-Badger


Yeah, if you Google Image "clown problem" you get me first, not a fucking carnie. I'm sick of getting lumped in with them.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby This Woman » Fri Jul 29, 2011 4:07 pm

Before the Techno Ghetto there was Spurning Man...does that count? Sure it was a little village of disgruntled purists who perhaps didn't even purchase tickets, but I still think it should count. They were defined by their separateness from Burning Man. Besides, I liked the name.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby capjbadger » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:18 pm

...Kill all Fluffy Frogs. :evil:

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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby jella » Fri Jul 29, 2011 11:20 pm

capjbadger wrote:...Kill all Fluffy Frogs. :evil:

-Badger

I whack every one I see :evil: We are BBq ing them in the bar
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby theCryptofishist » Sat Jul 30, 2011 7:34 am

...mix it with pectin, cook it down and decant into jars. Then it will be perfect for toast.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby Savannah » Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:18 pm

I would eat that. :shock:
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby mdmf007 » Sun Jul 31, 2011 7:05 pm

Savannah wrote:I would eat that. :shock:


Who wouldnt...

I love it when peeps dont even read the permit, then spout out their plans on how to solve the problem. BLM sets an upper limit, BMORG is allowed to grow, and grow every year, but in a managed fashion - not to exceed 6% from the year before up to the maximum limit. Its in the effing permit and the conditions set forth by the BLM in Winnemucca. Its the carrying capacity of the city, available LE and resources that determine the maximum number. Its akin to the Drake equation with best guesses and some hard core numbers woven in. Maximum number at the end is around 65,000 Maximum ever. Are we there yet? no. will we be? yes.

Two cities? now the logistics officer in me tells me that the economy of scale is out the window and I am now supporting 2 cities, with separate infrastructures and needs. at incredible cost. Of course you were just being funny, so its cool. lol haha.
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Re: To preserve the Burn... we must...

Postby capjbadger » Sun Jul 31, 2011 11:27 pm

mdmf007 wrote:Two cities? now the logistics officer in me tells me that the economy of scale is out the window and I am now supporting 2 cities, with separate infrastructures and needs. at incredible cost. Of course you were just being funny, so its cool. lol haha.

Simply put, two cities will not work because the road can not handle the traffic load.

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