Burningman gun policy, unlawful & dangerous!

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby ygmir » Sat Sep 18, 2010 3:20 pm

1durphul wrote:
Mosin wrote:
jkisha wrote:
Hmmmm.....In which case I would ask, why would anyone need a gun for safety if they were traveling to the burn from any place in the United States or Canada????

I've driven cross-country many times and have never felt the need for carrying a gun.


They must be paranoid and/or delusional, since we all know that the highways and byways of the United States and Canada are 100% free of methhead scumbags and criminal opportunists. Plus, there are always LEOs right there to step in... just a phone call away, from remote locations along Hwy 395, to the many lovely, welcoming urban areas of the 909.


While I know gun enthusiasts like to masturbate with their gun in one hand, and their cock in the other... (not at all homoerotic... no... not... at... all) It is incredibly unlikely that all of following circumstances would align so that you don't end up in a worse predicament: 1) you need a gun 2) you have the gun ready and available, 3) your usage would be seen as justifiable under the law and 4) you(')r(e) faster/aim is better than your opponent.


so, what you're saying is, that, no one should carry, because "you" think the above is impossible/improbable?

and, if so unlikely, then why should it matter, anyway?

"I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"
"I'd rather have a gun, and, not need it, than, need and not have"

Should people not carry spare tires, since, flats are so rare?

Just wonderin............
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Postby Elderberry » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:07 pm

ygmir wrote:
1durphul wrote:
Mosin wrote:
jkisha wrote:
Hmmmm.....In which case I would ask, why would anyone need a gun for safety if they were traveling to the burn from any place in the United States or Canada????

I've driven cross-country many times and have never felt the need for carrying a gun.


They must be paranoid and/or delusional, since we all know that the highways and byways of the United States and Canada are 100% free of methhead scumbags and criminal opportunists. Plus, there are always LEOs right there to step in... just a phone call away, from remote locations along Hwy 395, to the many lovely, welcoming urban areas of the 909.


While I know gun enthusiasts like to masturbate with their gun in one hand, and their cock in the other... (not at all homoerotic... no... not... at... all) It is incredibly unlikely that all of following circumstances would align so that you don't end up in a worse predicament: 1) you need a gun 2) you have the gun ready and available, 3) your usage would be seen as justifiable under the law and 4) you(')r(e) faster/aim is better than your opponent.


so, what you're saying is, that, no one should carry, because "you" think the above is impossible/improbable?

and, if so unlikely, then why should it matter, anyway?

"I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6"
"I'd rather have a gun, and, not need it, than, need and not have"

Should people not carry spare tires, since, flats are so rare?

Just wonderin............


The odds that I'll need a spare tire are astronomically higher than the odds that I will ever need a gun. I'm assuming that those odds are about the same for most people. I think people, in general, might be safer if they went with the odds.

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Postby mdmf007 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:17 pm

This is one of the lamer threads on eplaya, but i wil lplay.

A responsible gun owner carrying looks no different than anyone else. The weapon should be a non issue and you shouldnt even know its there.

Contrary to belief people DO disappear of the roads of the US never to be seen alive again. I have drawn down on individuals up to no good. I have spent much time on the BR Desert armed and dont have a problem

I really dont see where this thread is going - Yes BMAN policy on paper is "No guns" confiscated... blah blah.. are the greeters expected to confiscate guns? no.

Will the BLM or other LE refuse entry? yes. The issue at that point goes as far as you want to push it.

just my 2 cents
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Postby Elderberry » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:30 pm

mdmf007 wrote:This is one of the lamer threads on eplaya, but i wil lplay.

A responsible gun owner carrying looks no different than anyone else. The weapon should be a non issue and you shouldnt even know its there.

Contrary to belief people DO disappear of the roads of the US never to be seen alive again. I have drawn down on individuals up to no good. I have spent much time on the BR Desert armed and dont have a problem

I really dont see where this thread is going - Yes BMAN policy on paper is "No guns" confiscated... blah blah.. are the greeters expected to confiscate guns? no.

Will the BLM or other LE refuse entry? yes. The issue at that point goes as far as you want to push it.

just my 2 cents


How much time have by spent in the BRD high and drunk and armed? Personally, once out of the army, I have never felt a need or desire to own or carry a gun. I would probably feel a lot safer if I knew others weren't carrying weapons either--being the number of ass holes out there.


But don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to deny your right to carry, just questioning the wisdom.

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Postby gunsmith » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:41 pm

[/quote]TheJudge"]I have firearms training and have worked at the gate for 9 years. The majority of the gate staff have also had firearms training on their own (a lot of us are fans of guns. go figure)



If you are open carrying when you show up at the gate, you have options: Hand it over, or go home. No one is going to wrestle you for your weapon. That's just stupid.

And if there is even the slightest bit of opposition from you to this rule, I would be calling one of the many BLM officers over to deal with you
I cant believe this thread exists.


This is precisely what I'm talking about, one of the safest places for a loaded gun is in a holster "handing it over" at the gate with a ton of drunken distractions is courting disaster. Please, for your own benefit get a NV ccw ( you do not have to be a resident ) then go find a few law enforcement officers and ask them to teach you have they disarm folks in ( non hostile ) open carry situations.

& it's not me you have to worry about, it's easier to bring guns to the event then it is weed. I ccw.

It's not my fault BMorg decided on disastrous/illegal policy- I like the event, I like most burners and DPW/BR Rangers.

BMorg should have a responsible, level headed and legal approach to gun ownership ... not the whim of bureaucrat or someone who has never looked into firearms both legally and safety wise.

Why does BMorg wish to antagonize some of its best workers/volunteers/long term attendees, with some bizarre, dangerous/unworkable policy?

Why not let people who want to simply keep their guns in their vehicles or arrange a place for safe storage? The event is safe enough but some folks travel long distances with no way to call for help. Cops have no legal responsibility to protect you. Self reliance means self defense.


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Postby gunsmith » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:48 pm

if someone is drunk or high then they're in violation of the law if they are in possession of any firearm, please contact LE if you see that.

people will continue to bring firearms to BM, why not make it as safe and legal as possible? What I really do not understand is having a dangerous/illegal policy. Almost every other thing at modern Burns are all worked out ... having a logical/legal gun policy only makes sense
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Postby Elderberry » Sat Sep 18, 2010 4:51 pm

gunsmith wrote: Self reliance means self defense.


The rational behind this statement (as it relates to carrying a gun) is far beyond my understanding. I think I would really enjoy spending a couple of hours and some ice cold beers talking with you on the playa.

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Postby gunsmith » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:11 pm

it simply means the police can not and will not be there to protect you, the only person who can protect you at all times is yourself, unless of course you are not self reliant. if you rely on the police. ... you're in for a big let down.
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Postby Elderberry » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:26 pm

gunsmith wrote:it simply means the police can not and will not be there to protect you, the only person who can protect you at all times is yourself, unless of course you are not self reliant. if you rely on the police. ... you're in for a big let down.


On it's face, I can agree with that statement. I guess the part I am having a hard time wrapping my mind around is finding myself in such a situation that I would need a gun for protection. I can't say that I haven't been the victim of crime--I've had three break-ins at three different locations; but none of those times would owning a gun have prevented the crime.

I usually don't go to places where I would be in fear for my life; and I am pretty aware when out. Not that I avoid going places I have to go, it's just places I have to go are pretty unlikely to put me at risk.

There are certain activities like going to an ATM at night, that I will avoid if possible, and I take other sensible precautions. I doubt that I would do anything differently if I carried a gun. I just don't see the need for it.

If I owned a 7-11, I might have a different perspective on owning a gun, but for me and my lifestyle, I see no need.

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Postby alt12 » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:35 pm

gunsmith wrote:a ticket is all that will happen to the errant gun owner, however the topic of the thread is "official" burningman policy , which is confiscation.

Here's what happens: you get expelled from the event. That's what happens. Its real simple. Its been done before. Some off-duty nevada law prison worker yahoo was brandishing a weapon a couple of years ago and let me tell you, there was a swarm of BLM rangers looking to arrest him. I don't know if they ever got him but sorry Mr. I Have A Gun and I Can Do ANything I Want, you actually can't do anything you want. There are no guns allowed at the event. You will be evicted for sure. 100% guaranteed. Second, if you brandish your weapon, threaten Gate staff or anyone else with it, you'll be arrested. There are ample LEO present to find you and arrest....

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Postby gyre » Sat Sep 18, 2010 5:58 pm

Did you see this?

Virtually every gun event includes a hysterical witness with wild accusations.
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Postby gyre » Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:06 pm

jkisha wrote:The odds that I'll need a spare tire are astronomically higher than the odds that I will ever need a gun. I'm assuming that those odds are about the same for most people. I think people, in general, might be safer if they went with the odds.

JK

I would dispute your "odds", but it doesn't matter since statistics don't apply to individuals.
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Postby Elderberry » Sat Sep 18, 2010 7:56 pm

gyre wrote:
jkisha wrote:The odds that I'll need a spare tire are astronomically higher than the odds that I will ever need a gun. I'm assuming that those odds are about the same for most people. I think people, in general, might be safer if they went with the odds.

JK

I would dispute your "odds", but it doesn't matter since statistics don't apply to individuals.


:) Granted I don't have statistics, but I have had a flat tire and I have never (military excepted) needed a gun. And I can say that pretty much fits the profile of everyone that I know.

Granted, if I lived in South LA and belonged to a gang, my perception might very well be different.

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Postby gyre » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:25 pm

Perception of safety has little to do with reality.

Most people's highest risk of sudden death is automotive.
But have you taken any steps to increase your chances?
Perhaps at best in the choice of car?

But better tires enhance your chances of avoiding an accident tremendously.
There are other active safety improvements available and some passive ones as well.
Even among those that can easily afford precautions, it is rare.
Denial at work.

And the fact that any criminal encounter has high odds of ending with your death, makes a flat tire an odd comparison.
The most dangerous events can happen anywhere.
Some criminals target "nicer" neighborhoods for good reason,

Every day I put my gun on with my phone and car keys.
And I use it every day.

It allows me to choose my level of safety, rather than leaving it to the random whim of any person on the street, to take my life or those around me.

Do you only carry a spare when you're about to have a flat?
Does the army only train when something is going to happen?

By the way, do you carry an atm card on you?
That is extremely high risk behavior.
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Postby Elderberry » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:36 pm

gyre wrote:Perception of safety has little to do with reality.



My perception IS my reality.

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Postby 1durphul » Sat Sep 18, 2010 8:37 pm

gunsmith wrote:if someone is drunk or high then they're in violation of the law if they are in possession of any firearm, please contact LE if you see that.

people will continue to bring firearms to BM, why not make it as safe and legal as possible? What I really do not understand is having a dangerous/illegal policy. Almost every other thing at modern Burns are all worked out ... having a logical/legal gun policy only makes sense


You are being irrational and just ignoring the facts.

Facts you've ignored thus far:
1) Nobody will confiscate your gun.
2) You will be asked to surrender for safe keeping your weapon or
3) You won't be permitted entry into the event.
4) Short of pointing a gun at a gate person, they'll not allow you to enter.
5) Pressing the issue at the gate means immediate LEO involvement.

Those are the facts you have now ignored in multiple posts since those facts were related by actual gate personel in this thread. There is no "dangerous" or "illegal" policy. The above five facts comprise the policy.

Continue to ignore them and I'll know that you are a complete nut when it comes to gun rights issues. Facts be damned, you've got your mind made up and nothing anybody can say would matter.
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Postby gunsmith » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:28 pm

well, the official burningman org website says firearms are one of the things that will be confiscated, I'm not "ignoring" that someone may ask me to "hand over" my firearm- what you seem to have difficulty understanding is that would be illegal, unless of course the gate has a phone line link to the Nevada Brady check unit and will do a back ground check on the gate volunteer accepting the gun. Also, it is DANGEROUS! Why can't you realize that taking a loaded gun out of its holster is NOT A VERY GOOD IDEA!!!!

You're having a hard time understanding me, sorry, I'll try to simplify.

A: B'man policy claims firearms will be confiscated.
B: "handing over" "surrendering" a firearm is unlawful and dangerous
( unless it is to a law enforcement agent, even then ask any LE, he/she will assure you its still dangerous but lawful for him/her)
C: its obvious few ( if any ) gate people really know safe disarming techniques.

http://www.burningman.com/preparation/e ... 2,100000,0

NOT ALLOWED THROUGH THE GATE (i.e. what will be confiscated):
ï
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Postby gunsmith » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:51 pm

Really, it is a bad idea for gate volunteers to have an attendee "hand over" their firearm for safe keeping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am-Qdx6vky0

This is what happens when you un holster your sidearm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJf1Ku_F74Q

another case of a well trained person un holstering her side arm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6aSJgcpq ... re=related

if these kind of accidents happen to these trained people, imagine what could happen at 3am while surrounded by a bunch of drunks, trippers, stoners and untrained people insisting that the loaded gun be "handed over"

Really- the only safe alternative is telling them to turn around ( please tun around ) not "hand it over"
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Postby gunsmith » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:57 pm

as an added bonus, BM gun policy is a failure.
There are guns being carried by burners. Burners keep guns on their person, in their tents and vehicles. Why threaten gun owners with imaginary confiscation? Why give the police state yet another tool to harass burners? why not simply say that guns are discouraged and if you have one please keep it locked in your vehicle ?
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Postby robrob » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:39 am

well, the official burningman org website says....


holy shit.

dude, it's takes about 20 minutes on this board to realize that people's personal politics range from far left pinko commie to vast right wing tea party sillyness and everything in between.

Naturally, the "communities'" stance on gun control is all over the fucking map. I would wager that every person that wants unrestricted gun access is balanced out by someone that wants super harsh control- and the normal mainstream majority fall somewhere in the middle, but it's entirely beside the fucking point- NONE OF US WRITE THE FUCKING SURVIVAL GUIDE AND/OR WEBSITE.

Actually, there is a lady is in charge of writing that stuff, but the only time i've seen her active on eplaya was when some poor dumbass tried to ask for volunteers to wait on First Camp and their "VIP guests" at their catered dinners. (that was a pretty awesome debacle in it's own right).

anyhow, what i'm getting at is this is pretty typical troll garbage. "i'm only trying to help" (rile things up with unsolveable open-ended arguments). If you're going to waste a lot of time and hot air, at least do it in an amusing manner on something entertaining.


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Postby Elderberry » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:17 am

What it seems to me is the bottom line: BMORG does not want guns at the event. If you go to BM, DO NOT BRING A GUN. It is disrespectful to the organizers and the event and the other people that are obeying the 'rules' of the event. If BMORG says their event is a "NO GUN ZONE" I believe they have that right. It is a private event, no?

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Postby ygmir » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:20 am

jkisha wrote:What it seems to me is the bottom line: BMORG does not want guns at the event. If you go to BM, DO NOT BRING A GUN. It is disrespectful to the organizers and the event and the other people that are obeying the 'rules' of the event. If BMORG says their event is a "NO GUN ZONE" I believe they have that right. It is a private event, no?

JK

a very cogent statement, thanks JK.
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Postby gunsmith » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:31 am

I love the animated gif robrob, but simply disagree with you, legalese is very interesting to me, as well as contract and variations of law on BLM property. IMO giving the BLM law enforcement more tools to harass people is a bad thing. I've been around burners for over 20 years, they have always carried and always will. As far as the claim that no one here is involved in the writing? So what? My first "official" contact with BMorg was thru media mecca, they always monitor as much as they can- I'm sure someone in the LLC has at least looked at this thread.

Jkisha, sure BMorg "wants" the general public not to bring guns, they also must be aware that lots of their old timer volunteers/staff bring guns irregardless. I "want" all drugs to be legal, I "want" the drinking age to be the age of consent, I "want" a sane BM gun policy, not one that sets up a macho gate volunteer to get accidentally shot.
FYI this year I didn't bring my handgun - not because of irrational policy but because of dust . Others did ignore the irrational gun policy and carried or kept their handguns in the event, if BMorg really wants a gun free zone they can have the cops search every vehicle, gun owners will be sent home by a frowning cop and all the folks with weed/Eeeee/acid/shrooms will be given a ride to a nice jail cell.

These disrespectful people jkisha, have been bringing the party to you since the burn started... they are impossible people! they never obey the "community"

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Postby gunsmith » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:36 am

[quote="robrob"][quote]well, the official burningman org website says....[/quote]


Actually, there is a lady is in charge of writing that stuff, but the only time i've seen her active on eplaya was when some poor dumbass tried to ask for volunteers to wait on First Camp and their "VIP guests" at their catered dinners. (that was a pretty awesome debacle in it's own right).

[/quote]

if you really really cared you would be the first to volunteer to wait on first camp!! wheres you sense of community! I'm shocked! :twisted:
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Postby Elderberry » Sun Sep 19, 2010 5:53 pm

[quote="gunsmith"]I love the animated gif robrob, but simply disagree with you, legalese is very interesting to me, as well as contract and variations of law on BLM property. IMO giving the BLM law enforcement more tools to harass people is a bad thing. I've been around burners for over 20 years, they have always carried and always will. As far as the claim that no one here is involved in the writing? So what? My first "official" contact with BMorg was thru media mecca, they always monitor as much as they can- I'm sure someone in the LLC has at least looked at this thread.

Jkisha, sure BMorg "wants" the general public not to bring guns, they also must be aware that lots of their old timer volunteers/staff bring guns irregardless. I "want" all drugs to be legal, I "want" the drinking age to be the age of consent, I "want" a sane BM gun policy, not one that sets up a macho gate volunteer to get accidentally shot.
FYI this year I didn't bring my handgun - not because of irrational policy but because of dust . Others did ignore the irrational gun policy and carried or kept their handguns in the event, if BMorg really wants a gun free zone they can have the cops search every vehicle, gun owners will be sent home by a frowning cop and all the folks with weed/Eeeee/acid/shrooms will be given a ride to a nice jail cell.

These disrespectful people jkisha, have been bringing the party to you since the burn started... they are impossible people! they never obey the "community"

“I shall continue to be an impossible person so long as those who are now possible remain possible.â€
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Postby Bob » Sun Sep 19, 2010 6:32 pm

BMorg doesn't want the *appearance* of guns at the event, just like they don't want t-shirt booths or taco trucks, and deny that Burning Man is a drug-soaked rave. The BLM has its own motivations.
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Postby gunsmith » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:53 pm

Bob, that structure link is great! thanks!!!
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Postby caveatlector » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:39 pm

This is such a bizarre conversation to me.

First off, why the hell would someone bring a gun to Burning Man? I'm pretty sure the event that Burning Man was that allowed for displays of firepower went away nearly 2 decades ago.

Secondly, your hosts have asked that you leave your guns at home. Same as bringing your pets. Or air-burst explosives. Don't be a dick and bring those things.

Thirdly, as a member of the Commonwealth, I can give you my personal assurance that the Queen's Own won't be invading America any time soon via Black Rock City-- so don't feel like you're letting your guard down by leaving your killing tools at home.

Seriously. Why would you do such a dick move as to bring a gun to the Burn? Is this some sort of Yankee cultural thing that I'm just never going to get because I live in a saner, safer country?
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Postby gunsmith » Sun Sep 19, 2010 10:59 pm

[quote="caveatlector"]
Is this some sort of Yankee cultural thing that I'm just never going to get because I live in a saner, safer country?[/quote]

nope! you don't get it because you're wearing a silly hat.
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Postby gunsmith » Sun Sep 19, 2010 11:05 pm

Guns don't kill people, people with mustaches kill people.

oh BTW yeah sure, Canada is much saner then the USA

http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn ... /22/canada

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