Why do LEO carry guns at BM?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Law Enforcement Officers have guns and badges for...

shooting, intimidating and/or arresting people.
15
71%
integrating better into our community.
6
29%
 
Total votes : 21

Why do LEO carry guns at BM?

Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:08 pm

I'm running a poll since so many eplayans seem to think cops are at Burning Man only to have fun with us.
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Postby AntiM » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:24 pm

How about you quit spewing all over the fucking board? We get the fucking point, you hate the LEOs.
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Postby Eric » Wed Sep 15, 2010 5:27 pm

Image

*yawn*

For this years beaten to death subject we already have a winner.

Poll and bitch all you want- do you want actual substantive change and not just internet blabbering? Then go volunteer at the Org or the ACLU and work for change.

Whining on the eplaya isn't going to change a thing. At all. Period. Really.

If you want the interactions to be different in the future, either work in real life to make it happen or give it up.

Seriously.
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Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:17 pm

Right back at you Anti-M and Eric. Is this board not big enough with enough topics that you can ignore mine? Please, plonk me. If anybody is being a droll it is you. "Oh boohoo, somebody has posted ONE THREAD AND A POLL ON A SUBJECT. BOOHOODEEHOOO. I'm so put out and so incapable of ignoring one thread and a poll in a forum with thousands of threads and polls in them.."

FSM forbid you'd have to skip reading one whole thread, and a poll on the erosion of our freedom to freely associate.

So. For you, a well earned right back at you:
Image

Oh, and here's a headsup, the government often uses under covers and police solely for the purpose of creating distrust between formerly trusting group members. They've done it to anti-war protesters in our current war, they've done it to unions, they've done it all sorts of liberal groups. And since BM from the outside appears to have philosophical and cultural implications, well, you can bet they're doing it here too.

As you have so often said (over and over and over like a broken record) it is a stupid tax if you're caught. Think larger. It isn't just a stupid tax. It also taxes our ability to express ourselves in the radical way that we all go to Burning Man for. If my neighbor is tripping balls and wants to talk about it, I want to hear what the fuck he is seeing, because it is probably crazy, and exciting and amazing. Heck, his story might be so great that I'll never have to do whatever he is doing to enjoy the experience of having done it.

But... with law enforcement present like it is... I can't have that conversation. I can't hear that story, because my neighbor would be afraid of me, and anybody else he didn't know before the event.

My first year at Burning Man was wonderful. I was trusting and open, and loved talking to people no matter their state of mind. As the years have gone on and Law Enforcement presence has reached police state levels, I've gotten to the point where I don't trust anybody at the event that I didn't know before I went. If somebody I just met brings up drugs I immediately distrust them.

My event IS directly and qualitatively impacted by the massive presence of LEOs the last few years. Not because I have done anything illegal, but because the quality of my interactions with others has suffered greatly as a result of not only my paranoia, but everybody elses'.

So Eric why don't you take your "it only hurts stupid people" mantra, put on a brown shirt, and apply to be a Pershing County Sheriff since you hate stupid people so much. Then you can really stick it to them stupid people with your stupid tax. Big man.
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Postby lambert13 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:19 pm

Why do LEOs bring guns? Because they can.

How many burners do you read about on here bitching that they can't bring their guns to the party any more? It's just a touch of jealousy.

In all seriousness though, I can see why they carry weapons. It is a rule out there that guns are not allowed. Everyone knows that and follows the rule. The problem is that not everyone can be taken at their word. I would hate to be LEO out there and need a gun and not have one when someone goes rogue and starts shooting up the place. They have to be prepared for the scenarios that the rest of us good people would not be a part of.
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Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:24 pm

lambert13 wrote:Why do LEOs bring guns? Because they can.

How many burners do you read about on here bitching that they can't bring their guns to the party any more? It's just a touch of jealousy.

In all seriousness though, I can see why they carry weapons. It is a rule out there that guns are not allowed. Everyone knows that and follows the rule. The problem is that not everyone can be taken at their word. I would hate to be LEO out there and need a gun and not have one when someone goes rogue and starts shooting up the place. They have to be prepared for the scenarios that the rest of us good people would not be a part of.


I'm sure there are incredible orgies of death from participants smuggling guns in. Actually, I'm sure there isn't. Perhaps the LEOs could have a cache somewhere and get their guns when needed, rather than carrying them with them. Hey, since they travel in vehicles, maybe they can keep the guns in the vehicle unless needed. That's what they do in most civilized countries.
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Postby ygmir » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:29 pm

*chuckling*

yeah, I can hear it:

"Hold on/time out,( to meth-infused guy with a knife or crowbar, beating someone), I gotta run to the locker and get my gun".......

and, yeah, maybe it's not happened before, but, whomever would be the first, would sure as shit want the cop to be armed and tag that bastard.......
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Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:32 pm

ygmir wrote:*chuckling*

yeah, I can hear it:

"Hold on/time out,( to meth-infused guy with a knife or crowbar, beating someone), I gotta run to the locker and get my gun".......

and, yeah, maybe it's not happened before, but, whomever would be the first, would sure as shit want the cop to be armed and tag that bastard.......


Interesting note, there are people on meth in england with crowbars in hand... yet... the police there seem capable of handling it.
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Postby Sham » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:33 pm

While feather dusters are sorely needed on the playa, it would be inappropriate for the police to be carrying those instead of guns.
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Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:34 pm

Shambala wrote:While feather dusters are sorely needed on the playa, it would be inappropriate for the police to be carrying those instead of guns.


How about batons?

Image

Seriously, why guns? What possible reason could they have for carrying them in a place where guns are banned entirely? Just like in countries where citizens aren't allowed to carry guns, the police don't need to carry them either. In fact, maybe it could save a life when the police have to think of an alternative to just shooting some dumb ass out of control raver kid. And that Raver Kid could grow up someday to be the next Ronald Reagan, or Betty White.

The police of course have guns in those countries, but they are not carried on their person at all times.
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Postby AntiM » Wed Sep 15, 2010 6:50 pm

Trust me, I'd plonk you in a heartbeat, but I cannot because I have to read all posts. Not an obsession, my volunteer "job' 50 weeks or so a year. I get cranky now and then, and I am allowed to have personal opinions. Maybe the cop threads aren't all yours, but you're posting on them. Really, ineffective, because you do get plonked rather than taken seriously if you out-state your case.

How about a plan of action? Do you have any solutions in mind? How would you approach such solutions? Brainstorming solutions, seeing what has been done, what can be done realistically, legally and financially. What can you implement yourself? With help? Ideas or simply complaints?

Just an aside, when I lived in Japan, no cop carried a gun except for the rare SWAT style team. One did not fuck with the Marty-sans, they'd kick your ass, readily and efficiently. If you were beaten by a cop, you "deserved" it. More brutal than US cops, just less deadly force, and a lower crime rate. Fear of cops? Nah, society is different there. Which is better? And yet another aside, cops in Japan carry guns now, I don't know the percentage, but when the criminals started shooting rather than beating, so did the cops.
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Postby Risky » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:09 pm

Officers are required to carry devices needed to combat several levels of force - referred to as the force continuum.

Batons, OC/pepper spray and tasers are all technically considered less lethal and the department usually requires the officer to carry at least two of these items.

The pistol is a standard item carried on the belt, much like handcuffs and flashlight. It is the only technical lethal device they do carry. Should they encounter a lethal situation with no ability to return lethal force, they would have many to answer to.
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Postby Eric » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:12 pm

1durphul wrote:Oh, and here's a headsup, the government often uses under covers and police solely for the purpose of creating distrust between formerly trusting group members.


I've been there, back in the 80's when I was working along-side a major environmental group getting a toxic waste incinerator closed. Jailed, batoned, watched, faced 10 years + $10,000 for "disrupting a public hearing" (charges tossed)- I've seen the negative side of the police.

Guess what- I still don't worry about the LEO's at Burning Man, because I know they're there, and I know what their looking for- easy busts. I don't act stupidly so I'm not an easy bust.

I don't worry about the undercovers; I don't have drugs to share so I say "no", I card people at the bar, I watch out for my friends without being paranoid. I live like I do in any city- aware and Not Stupid.

You want to run around being paranoid, yet not do anything to alleviate the situation you don't like. Go right ahead, it's your life. Personally, if I had the splinter in my finger about this like you do I'd be doing something productive, not bitching all over an internet board.

Oh- and as to why they carry guns? They can, they're trained in them, it's part of their job, and that isn't going to change just because you don't like it.

*shrug*
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Postby Kinetik V » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:17 pm

Law Enforcement wears a badge to identify themselves as persons who have sworn to uphold the law, period.

Firearms are for the officer's protection first and foremost. Risky's description is more precise but I'm keeping it very simple.

This is really simple stuff that anyone taking a basic social studies class in elementary school should know.

In 8 years of being on the playa I've never been searched. I've never been harassed. I've spoken to LEO's and asked they how they liked working the event and why they worked it if I felt the timing was appropriate to ask. I have always been respectful to them and have received the same in return.
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Postby gyre » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:20 pm

UKs gun ban has worked as expected.

Great for criminals.
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Postby knowmad » Wed Sep 15, 2010 7:21 pm

At OP;
So you hate "The Man", AntiM, Eric, and Logos. (might want to Google that last one). As they Said "We get It."

I too Ask my self, Why? and I feel Like a fool for being offended By "Guns in the Church", and all that. But to ask a question of my own, in Response; You are aware of the fact that LEO's are: A) Human, B) Scared, C) Following Protocol. ?

I'll start with Protocol; The Gun, The Badge and The Vest. All part of a Prescribed Uniform of the Day. Kinda Like what a Shirt is for a ShirtCocker. Required. If you think the Officer wants to wear a vest, try one on next time you are on the Playa it's hot, makes you Scared; after all Why is he Wearing one other than The fact that His Boss (The Man), told him to, because he might get Shot at. and then to give him some Confidence, he also was issued a gun. And to make sure he is well Protected they Give him a Small Golden Shield, we call it a Badge. it doesn't even stop; Bullets, Slurs, or Dirty looks, but it does remind him he is protected by the Law, and that his job is to protect the Law as well.

if you can't understand the Protocol part I will have a difficult time convincing you about the LEO's Human tendency too be Scared. And then You, my Fellow Burner are more of a disappointment on the Playa, than a gun toting Law abiding Officer of the Peace. While The LEO's Presence reminds me of Defaultias Lack of faith in their Fellow Man, You Make me Lose Faith in my Fellow Burner.

So then if the Pen is Mightier than the Sword, Who here has Brought "Guns in the Church". Can You Draw a target? How do you Dodge this?
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Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:28 pm

gyre wrote:UKs gun ban has worked as expected.

Great for criminals.


Wrong.

42 gun deaths in Britain last year with a population of aprox 61 million.

San Francisco, a city with less than 1 million people had more gun deaths than that in the same time period.

Your argument is even more out of line when you consider that Black Rock City probably hasn't had any gun deaths since the ban went into place.
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Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:40 pm

AntiM wrote: I get cranky now and then, and I am allowed to have personal opinions.


You and me both. This issue of the LEO numbers at the event really irks me... feel free to message me privately if you think I'm over doing it. I do have a track record of sometimes getting too wrapped up in something and not realizing how manically I'm posting. A friendly "hey, you've sure posetd a lot on that, mind letting others have some time to respond" is something I always respect as a call for some contemplation of how over engaged I am.

AntiM wrote: How about a plan of action? Do you have any solutions in mind? How would you approach such solutions? Brainstorming solutions, seeing what has been done, what can be done realistically, legally and financially. What can you implement yourself? With help? Ideas or simply complaints?


My plan of action is more or less to get the BORG to negotiate a better deal not just for themselves but for the participants as well. I'm sure they can get stipulations regarding Law Enforcements presence at the event. If Washoe/Pershing/BLM won't do it, well maybe another county in California or Oregon would like the revenue stream.

Brainstorming? How about "Police camps" where on duty officers sit in a carport and wait to be called rather than patrolling. Why do they need to patrol? In fact, patrolling makes them harder to find when there is an emergency need for them. If instead they were located in every plaza, and perhaps had one or two esplanade locations people could find them when they needed them. They could even invite interaction by making their carports welcoming for people to stop and chat. Just park the SUV/Truck/Cart next to it so it is ready to go in an emergency. Wouldn't that change their role within our city from predatory to service oriented? I think it would.

Imagine if medical or fire did what the police do at Burning Man. Rather than having a plaza medical/fire stations, instead they had no set location and just roamed the event looking for injured people, or things on fire. Ridiculous no? If you think about it, police really aren't that different when it comes to necessary roles within black rock city. We need them for protection, just like we need fire, and we need medical. And in all three cases responding when called is the appropriate model for their presence at an event like this.

AntiM wrote:Just an aside, when I lived in Japan...


Interesting, thanks for sharing that.
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Postby Isotopia » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:42 pm

Gah!! Stepping into this thread is like stepping into another pile of shit at dog the park.

Wonderful.

Just fucking 1durphul.
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Postby gyre » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:45 pm

1durphul wrote:
gyre wrote:UKs gun ban has worked as expected.

Great for criminals.


Wrong.

42 gun deaths in Britain last year with a population of aprox 61 million.

San Francisco, a city with less than 1 million people had more gun deaths than that in the same time period.

Your argument is even more out of line when you consider that Black Rock City probably hasn't had any gun deaths since the ban went into place.

San Francisco = irrelevant

42, if correct, how is that a change?
What about the huge surge in use of knives by criminals?

There is call for a ban on knives and clubs now.
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Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:55 pm

gyre wrote:San Francisco = irrelevant

42, if correct, how is that a change?
What about the huge surge in use of knives by criminals?

There is call for a ban on knives and clubs now.


I was just using San Francisco as a placeholder for all cities with aprox 1 million people.

To be honest, I'd rather be stabbed than shot. Given the choice between a criminal who wants my wallet who has a knife, or one with a gun, I'll take the one with the knife and hope he doesn't slash anything I need.
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Postby Eric » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:57 pm

1durphul wrote:My plan of action is more or less to get the BORG to negotiate a better deal not just for themselves but for the participants as well.


One question: how?

Are you an attorney, do you represent another county, are you an elected official, are you on Bmorgs negotiating team?

I really don't think that the org is going to listen to a random Burner unless you are bringing heavy ammo to the table.

This "conversation" is pretty much pointless. I'm out.

edit: fixed quote
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Postby thirt33n » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:58 pm

...even I won't comment on this thread.
blow.
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Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:06 pm

Eric wrote:One question: how?

Are you an attorney, do you represent another county, are you an elected official, are you on Bmorgs negotiating team?

I really don't think that the org is going to listen to a random Burner unless you are bringing heavy ammo to the table.


I'm here to build support for the idea from their customer base.

I'm glad to see you're opting out of the discussion.
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Postby knowmad » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:06 pm

knowmad wrote:At OP;
So you hate "The Man", AntiM, Eric, and Logos. (might want to Google that last one). As they Said "We get It."

I too Ask my self, Why? and I feel Like a fool for being offended By "Guns in the Church", and all that. But to ask a question of my own, in Response; You are aware of the fact that LEO's are: A) Human, B) Scared, C) Following Protocol. ?

I'll start with Protocol; The Gun, The Badge and The Vest. All part of a Prescribed Uniform of the Day. Kinda Like what a Shirt is for a ShirtCocker. Required. If you think the Officer wants to wear a vest, try one on next time you are on the Playa it's hot, makes you Scared; after all Why is he Wearing one other than The fact that His Boss (The Man), told him to, because he might get Shot at. and then to give him some Confidence, he also was issued a gun. And to make sure he is well Protected they Give him a Small Golden Shield, we call it a Badge. it doesn't even stop; Bullets, Slurs, or Dirty looks, but it does remind him he is protected by the Law, and that his job is to protect the Law as well.

if you can't understand the Protocol part I will have a difficult time convincing you about the LEO's Human tendency too be Scared. And then You, my Fellow Burner are more of a disappointment on the Playa, than a gun toting Law abiding Officer of the Peace. While The LEO's Presence reminds me of Defaultias Lack of faith in their Fellow Man, You Make me Lose Faith in my Fellow Burner.

So then if the Pen is Mightier than the Sword, Who here has Brought "Guns in the Church". Can You Draw a target? How do you Dodge this?

1durphul wrote:
gyre wrote:UKs gun ban has worked as expected.

Great for criminals.


Wrong.

42 gun deaths in Britain last year with a population of aprox 61 million.

San Francisco, a city with less than 1 million people had more gun deaths than that in the same time period.

Your argument is even more out of line when you consider that Black Rock City probably hasn't had any gun deaths since the ban went into place.


Coomon!!! This is wonderful, But please Answerer my Question and use Statistics, as you have already discovered they don't even need to be founded on the truth. At least Quote your sources, and yes, If your mommy told you we'll count that as a source. she is a source you know. :wink:
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:06 pm

1durphul wrote:
Perhaps the LEOs could have a cache somewhere and get their guns when needed, rather than carrying them with them.


That's the fucking stupidest thing I've read on eplaya.
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:09 pm

1durphul wrote:
Perhaps the LEOs could have a cache somewhere and get their guns when needed, rather than carrying them with them.


That's the fucking stupidest thing I've read on eplaya.
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Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:09 pm

deleted.
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Postby knowmad » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:12 pm

Captain Goddammit wrote:
1durphul wrote:
Perhaps the LEOs could have a cache somewhere and get their guns when needed, rather than carrying them with them.


That's the fucking stupidest thing I've read on eplaya.

Yeah, in all 3 categories, Syllogistics, Grammatical, and Logistical. :shock:
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Postby 1durphul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:25 pm

knowmad wrote:Coomon!!! This is wonderful, But please Answerer my Question and use Statistics, as you have already discovered they don't even need to be founded on the truth. At least Quote your sources, and yes, If your mommy told you we'll count that as a source. she is a source you know. :wink:


Sorry knowmad you were on my plonk list. I have no idea when I put you there or why... So I've unplonked you. Or even if you were plonked intentionally. I'm just now reading your two posts in this thread.

As for the UK information it was from one of their newspaper website: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/cr ... 32069.html

And as for Black Rock City... well, I'm just going on the fact that I haven't heard anything. I'm sure if there were a shoot out of some sort that eplaya at the least would've recorded them in some sort of hyper dramatic thread.

RE your earlier post about Protocol, I get it. I used to have a gov't job with peace officer authority when I was in college. I truly get it. Interestingly I was able to enforce laws, write tickets, and place people under arrest without having a gun, or a bullet proof vest. (We did carry weapons but they were disguised.) If black rock city has not had a history of gun violence, then there is little need for guns and bullet proof vests on the playa. Whether or not they wear the vest, that's up to them. Whether or not they carry a gun on their person, I'm not so sure that should be their decision to make. Common sense should say there has never been a need for them since the ban went into place, and while they should be available, there has been no immediate need for them.
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