Evolution of Music Scene

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Postby Eric » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:23 pm

JStep wrote:
Eric wrote:Always keep in mind that everything you think you know about what you're going to experience- beyond food, water & shelter- is wrong. Even what you've heard here.


Well, there goes the value of ePlaya... and your post. LOL.


Not gonna hear me argue.

Just never assume that someone who hasn't been has an understanding of what it's like on our little camping trip. Never assume that someone who's gone has had an experience anything like yours will be.

2010 was my best year ever, two of the people in my RV thought it was pretty good but not great, and one hated it. We were all in the same RV together, and have camped together for years. If we can't agree on something as "obvious" as "was it a good year", how could strangers agree on the experience?
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Postby JStep » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:48 pm

Eric wrote:
JStep wrote:
Eric wrote:Always keep in mind that everything you think you know about what you're going to experience- beyond food, water & shelter- is wrong. Even what you've heard here.


Well, there goes the value of ePlaya... and your post. LOL.


Not gonna hear me argue.

Just never assume that someone who hasn't been has an understanding of what it's like on our little camping trip. Never assume that someone who's gone has had an experience anything like yours will be.

2010 was my best year ever, two of the people in my RV thought it was pretty good but not great, and one hated it. We were all in the same RV together, and have camped together for years. If we can't agree on something as "obvious" as "was it a good year", how could strangers agree on the experience?


Well put. I am pretty confident that BM is right up my alley. I love art, I have a penchant for weird psychedelic experiences, I love to embrace my primal determination to survive harsh elements, I find great joy in the surreal, absurd and ironic...

My comments were born of a basic understanding of electronic music production, DJ culture and I guess human nature. I definitely appreciate that these days, every asshole with a laptop fancies himself a DJ. I guess it's just hard for me to believe that a lot of sub-par wannabe DJs actually are allowed to dominate the playa with bad mixing of boring tracks. Mostly because of the attitude I see here about DJs, and people with bullhorns ready to heap abuse on anyone for any or no reason and the fierce protectiveness I pick up surrounding BM in general. I'm just surprised that *that many* really shitty DJs are allowed to poison the experience without being tossed offstage or having their cables cut.

Guess I'll see when I arrive. Perhaps I'm too used to the Rainbow/Deadhead prankster types that would probably manage to sabotage anyone that was truly fucking up the party for everyone else.
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Postby Eric » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:34 pm

JStep wrote:I guess it's just hard for me to believe that a lot of sub-par wannabe DJs actually are allowed to dominate the playa with bad mixing of boring tracks.


There is no "allowed". If people can decide to build a 2 story steam-powered mobile Victorian teahouse then why can't the really crappy pseudo-DJ's who bring their own sound systems, art cars, boom boxes, whatevers, play them? The problem is that too many of them choose to do so. Loudly. When no one is around. When they're not even around. At all hours. Good times.

And while it doesn't completely "dominate", it does impact the experience pretty heavily, at least for me.

You, however, may love it & think we're full of shit. That whole "no two experiences are alike" thing.


If you think the Event is up your alley, there's a good chance you're right. I think the majority of people who get excited this far in advance of their first time become lifers. Of course I just made up that statistic, but if it works for Fox why can't it work for us?
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Postby JStep » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:42 pm

Eric wrote:There is no "allowed". If people can decide to build a 2 story steam-powered mobile Victorian teahouse then why can't the really crappy pseudo-DJ's who bring their own sound systems, art cars, boom boxes, whatevers, play them?


Well yeah, true, but likewise why can't merry pranksters of all stripes gauge the overall mood of the masses at large regarding these self-styled entertainers and steal their batteries, cut their cables, show up at their performances to conflict/boo/compete/etc... Just hard to see an open platform anarchic sort of anything goes atmosphere only going in one direction... But, like you said, I'm a virgin... hard to imagine a LOT of things!
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Postby EspressoDude » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:46 pm

Eric wrote:
JStep wrote:I guess it's just hard for me to believe that a lot of sub-par wannabe DJs actually are allowed to dominate the playa with bad mixing of boring tracks.


The problem is that too many of them choose to do so. Loudly. When no one is around. When they're not even around. At all hours. Good times.



That's what wire cutters are for, or unplugging power cables...not that I am guilty of such actions.
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Postby neon tetra » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:02 pm

Eric wrote: I think the majority of people who get excited this far in advance of their first time become lifers. Of course I just made up that statistic, but if it works for Fox why can't it work for us?


You media guys are all the same! 8)
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Postby Eric » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:07 pm

EspressoDude wrote:
Eric wrote:
JStep wrote:I guess it's just hard for me to believe that a lot of sub-par wannabe DJs actually are allowed to dominate the playa with bad mixing of boring tracks.


The problem is that too many of them choose to do so. Loudly. When no one is around. When they're not even around. At all hours. Good times.



That's what wire cutters are for, or unplugging power cables...not that I am guilty of such actions.


I know you've never done it Espresso, and I certainly haven't ever suggested anyone else do it, but even if people cut some of the offending camps, there are still dozens, if not hundreds, more.

It would be nice if there was a dedicated "you're an asshole and we're going to deal with you" underground that just went around "fixing" these systems, like the A-Team.

Problem is, someone else might think my camps music is the one that sucks. Or your camps music.......
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Postby JStep » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:31 pm

Eric wrote:Problem is, someone else might think my camps music is the one that sucks. Or your camps music.......


That would be valid if all things were equal, but it sort of argues against your statement that there's a reason why DJs are so derided on ePlaya. Either there's a sort of objective decision about what is wanted as far as musical entertainment or there isn't, right?

Maybe not, I don't know. Just trying to make sense of what I see/read on here.
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Postby EspressoDude » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:39 pm

Fucking up someone elses ART, even if it sounds bad, or loud, or even just looks awful is not a good thing to do, not recommended, etc.

What if everyone played the same music, or built the same static/interactive art, or mutant vehicles?

What if Larry.org mandated Lawrence Welk ? ?

Likely a very boring event.
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Postby JStep » Wed Nov 24, 2010 9:56 pm

EspressoDude wrote:Fucking up someone elses ART, even if it sounds bad, or loud, or even just looks awful is not a good thing to do, not recommended, etc.

What if everyone played the same music, or built the same static/interactive art, or mutant vehicles?

What if Larry.org mandated Lawrence Welk ? ?

Likely a very boring event.


I agree!

I'm obviously not an expert, just trying to make sense of things as I see them posted.

Eric probably said it best in his post relating that everyone's experience isn't necessarily going to reflect your own. Just kind of odd that there's sort of a unanimous consensus on ePlaya that DJs ruin Burning Man, but they are allowed to continue wrecking the week for everyone.
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Postby Bob » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:09 pm

JStep wrote:
EspressoDude wrote:Fucking up someone elses ART, even if it sounds bad, or loud, or even just looks awful is not a good thing to do, not recommended, etc.

What if everyone played the same music, or built the same static/interactive art, or mutant vehicles?

What if Larry.org mandated Lawrence Welk ? ?

Likely a very boring event.


I agree!

I'm obviously not an expert, just trying to make sense of things as I see them posted.

Eric probably said it best in his post relating that everyone's experience isn't necessarily going to reflect your own. Just kind of odd that there's sort of a unanimous consensus on ePlaya that DJs ruin Burning Man, but they are allowed to continue wrecking the week for everyone.


Because nobody on the eplaya collects the ticket money from the thousands of ravefucks.



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Postby gaminwench » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:11 pm

It isn't about whether or not one likes the music, it's about the way so many vehicles/clubs play their stuff SO LOUDLY that it OVERPOWERS anything within a block(or 3)... especially when inside the city and unattended (this happens a lot more than one would expect)...
The huge sound camps - RS/OT - are not the problem; they use quality equipment, aim their speakers responsibly, don't have 'rookie' DJ's 'learning their sh*t on the fly', and are placed in the LSSA zone...

When your 'art' beats the sonic crap out of anything aural nearby, it becomes more assault than 'art'...
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Postby JStep » Wed Nov 24, 2010 10:20 pm

Bob wrote:
Because nobody on the eplaya collects the ticket money from the thousands of ravefucks.



Wow, very enlightening. I think you hit my blind side on it's head. I'm not used to thinking of this as a commercial, for-profit event. My idealistic side probably buys into the idealism of the experience... and makes me blind to the capitalist reality that this is about people selling tickets to an event to make money. Disheartening, but necessary. Thanks for that wake up!
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Postby Eric » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:10 am

JStep wrote:I'm not used to thinking of this as a commercial, for-profit event.


For-profit, yes: there is a paid Board & staff; commercial, not really- not like a concert is anyway. Figure that most of us pay to attend, and the various government agencies that are able to milk the event like a never-ending cash cow, so there is lots of money involved. Then there's the little fact about how much we all spend getting there, but that money doesn't go to the Bmorg.

Once you're in BRC, however, I think you would be hard-pressed to think of it as a commercial event.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:28 am

Eric wrote: Of course I just made up that statistic, but if it works for Fox why can't it work for us?

*heart flutters*
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Nov 25, 2010 10:34 am

Eric wrote:
JStep wrote:I'm not used to thinking of this as a commercial, for-profit event.


For-profit, yes: there is a paid Board & staff; commercial, not really- not like a concert is anyway. Figure that most of us pay to attend, and the various government agencies that are able to milk the event like a never-ending cash cow, so there is lots of money involved.

I would hesitate at "for profit." We all know I'm no big fan of Larry, who seems to have a tin ear to a lot of ht culture he's supposed to have created, but if he wanted to make more money off the event he could. When's the last time you saw a prime time tv paid advertisement? When's the last time you listened to Larry on the radio giving away a free pair of tickets to the 658th caller?
That being said, yes, they are finally consistently in the black after years of just eking out the cash flow until tickets are on sale again in January.
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Postby neon tetra » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:31 am

JStep wrote:Just trying to make sense of what I see/read on here.


IMHO, don't.

Sure, there's a lot of good info on here, as well as entertainment, but like others have said... don't try to make too much sense of any of it. Same goes for when you get to the playa.

I've noticed that some of the best experiences there are the "WTF?!?" moments, and just the sheer amazingness of BRC as a whole. Don't try to figure it out, don't try to compare it to anything else, and don't listen to anything I say either. 8)
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lay off the eye candy, its the FRENCH who are ruining BM

Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Nov 25, 2010 11:36 am

Bob wrote:
JStep wrote:
EspressoDude wrote:Fucking up someone elses ART, even if it sounds bad, or loud, or even just looks awful is not a good thing to do, not recommended, etc.

What if everyone played the same music, or built the same static/interactive art, or mutant vehicles?

What if Larry.org mandated Lawrence Welk ? ?

Likely a very boring event.


I agree!

I'm obviously not an expert, just trying to make sense of things as I see them posted.

Eric probably said it best in his post relating that everyone's experience isn't necessarily going to reflect your own. Just kind of odd that there's sort of a unanimous consensus on ePlaya that DJs ruin Burning Man, but they are allowed to continue wrecking the week for everyone.


Because nobody on the eplaya collects the ticket money from the thousands of ravefucks.



<yawn>

Speaking of "the scene"...

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you know, this might stir the french to make their own burning man on the ashes of euro-disney and stay home this year...
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Postby Eric » Thu Nov 25, 2010 1:05 pm

theCryptofishist wrote:
Eric wrote:
JStep wrote:I'm not used to thinking of this as a commercial, for-profit event.


For-profit, yes: there is a paid Board & staff; commercial, not really- not like a concert is anyway. Figure that most of us pay to attend, and the various government agencies that are able to milk the event like a never-ending cash cow, so there is lots of money involved.

I would hesitate at "for profit.".... When's the last time you saw a prime time tv paid advertisement? When's the last time you listened to Larry on the radio giving away a free pair of tickets to the 658th caller?


As shocking as it is to us Uhmerkin's, there's actually a difference between being "for profit" and being "greedy".

"For profit" and "Nonprofit" are legal designations- "For profit" simply means that a profit is the goal, not necessarily a big one, and that taxes get paid on income the LLC makes. Any income above expenses can be doled out however they want.

A nonprofit doesn't pay taxes, but should have a mission that benefits "the greater good". No taxes are paid on income, but any money earned over expenses (including salaries) must be plowed back into the nonprofit.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Nov 25, 2010 2:32 pm

Eric wrote:
theCryptofishist wrote:
Eric wrote:
JStep wrote:I'm not used to thinking of this as a commercial, for-profit event.


For-profit, yes: there is a paid Board & staff; commercial, not really- not like a concert is anyway. Figure that most of us pay to attend, and the various government agencies that are able to milk the event like a never-ending cash cow, so there is lots of money involved.

I would hesitate at "for profit.".... When's the last time you saw a prime time tv paid advertisement? When's the last time you listened to Larry on the radio giving away a free pair of tickets to the 658th caller?


As shocking as it is to us Uhmerkin's, there's actually a difference between being "for profit" and being "greedy".

"For profit" and "Nonprofit" are legal designations- "For profit" simply means that a profit is the goal, not necessarily a big one, and that taxes get paid on income the LLC makes. Any income above expenses can be doled out however they want.

A nonprofit doesn't pay taxes, but should have a mission that benefits "the greater good". No taxes are paid on income, but any money earned over expenses (including salaries) must be plowed back into the nonprofit.

Okay, you're right. I just get so sick of the people who flip from "Not a non-profit" to "Larry is Scrooge McDuck" in a micro second. I'm simply not ready for another round of that circus.
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Postby neon tetra » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:31 am

[double post]
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Postby neon tetra » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:31 am

Yea, I heard that Burning Man is, like, all commercial now.


(you wouldn't believe the amount of times I've heard that)
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Postby JStep » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:47 am

Well I didn't mean to stir up a controversy, lol.

I simply meant I wasn't considering the income generating motivation behind encouraging as many people as possible to buy tickets, even if it means a lot of them have nothing to offer or just offer really bad DJ skills.

The capitalist slant on it has, I think, been overshadowed by my idealistic (ex Rainbow) side.
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Postby neon tetra » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:04 am

I don't think it's a capitalist motive that's to blame for all the DJs there. I think it's just that the playa is the ultimate playground, and EDM just happens to be popular. There's also an entire week of timeslots to fill for each stage & MV, so every performer isn't necessarily going to be great.

Don't be discouraged though. You will certainly have your mind blown out there. And if you don't like what you're hearing.. walk, bike, or hop an art car to a different area. The best music isn't at the bigger camps most of the time IMO. Hookahdome is small in comparison, but they play some of the best eastern-influenced dubstep, trip hop & breaks (& more) that I heard out there.

Believe me, you won't be bored out there! There's so much out there it's a bit overwhelming. And my most memorable times there aren't ones I planned (like a DJ I planned to see), but were things I stumbled upon.

Fuck, I can't believe it's still 9 months away! lol
At least snowboard season is upon us. 8)
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Postby Cheyenne » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:29 am

I'm going to bring some of my live setup over to the USA for BM. It means having to put everything in custom made gauze bags to play with.. but it may just dispel some of the myths of electronic musicians. I dj Detroit techno mostly, but my production stuff is downtempo ambient and thought provoking electronica... not grating on the ears... and with some wierd additions such as short wave number stations!!
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Postby Eric » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:38 am

JStep wrote:I simply meant I wasn't considering the income generating motivation behind encouraging as many people as possible to buy tickets,


I don't think the LLC encourages "as many people as possible" to come. I had no idea how it was run, & didn't care- and still don't, for the most part, and had never seen anything trying to get me out there. I live in SF, the Burning Man backyard- if any community was ripe for "encouragement" by the LLC it would be here. Nada from them other than Decompression & stuff geared towards people who already go.

If it makes you feel better, they're also working on taking it non-profit, which can help restore you idealism quotient.

People come because they want to be there, the money is secondary.

However- This is NOT the Rainbow Gathering!!.

Never has been, never will be. Don't confuse the two.

People at Burning Man run the gamut from survivalists who like to party to spiritualists who want to go "om" all day. From dirty hippies who want to hug you to dirty DPW's who want to steal your beer because they think they're entitled. It is not a kumbaya circle of love. However, if that's what you want it to be, it's amazingly easy to have that happen.

It also must be something fairly incredible to keep people like us posting on a board dedicated to the Event all year long, for years on end. If you like it, you tend to really like it!
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Postby JStep » Fri Nov 26, 2010 11:47 am

Eric wrote:
However- This is NOT the Rainbow Gathering!!.

Never has been, never will be. Don't confuse the two.


Believe me, I don't make that mistake and I wouldn't be very interested if it were a Rainbow Gathering. I did that thing to the hilt, helped run a road dog kitchen for well over a year, fed thousands of people along the way... and I have my own reasons for not being into that scene any more. It had it's time and place in my life and I wouldn't trade it for the world, but I can't take the Rainbow Trail seriously at this point in my life.
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Postby neon tetra » Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:15 pm

I love hippie/jam festivals more than anything. Especially ones with performers like Pretty Lights, RJD2, STS9, Yonder, Lotus, Les Claypool, Eoto, etc.
And if there's one thing that I miss at Burning Man, it's the insane vibe that some of them have. I never quite find that there.
But one thing I don't miss is the cracked-out wookies that a lot of those shows attract. I'm sure Burning Man has some sketch too, but it's not very much from what I've seen.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:06 pm

Eric wrote:
JStep wrote:I simply meant I wasn't considering the income generating motivation behind encouraging as many people as possible to buy tickets,


I don't think the LLC encourages "as many people as possible" to come. I had no idea how it was run, & didn't care- and still don't, for the most part, and had never seen anything trying to get me out there. I live in SF, the Burning Man backyard- if any community was ripe for "encouragement" by the LLC it would be here. Nada from them other than Decompression & stuff geared towards people who already go.

Seconded. As I tried to allude to upthread.
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Postby JStep » Fri Nov 26, 2010 2:11 pm

LOL,
What I've learned reading this thread:

1.
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