The future of Burningman

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

The future of Burningman

Postby jerroc » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:09 am

Is burningman becoming the next party hot spot of the summer. Are people buying tickets to a art/culture festival or a giant no rules, topless girls, free beer, international Dj week long I'm so getting laid party. I know we have to take the bad with the good in life but at the rate of a 20% population increase when is the bad going to out weigh the good. The idea of this post is not to complain but to create a think tank. How can we preserve the good? Should there be some rules in place to keep burningman from evolving into the party hotspot for the general public? does the promotion of international Djs go aginst the 3rd listed of the 10 principles? should we look at the cons of nudity and make some compormises? Should news media be allowed to film and exploit the event and will they do it with the best intrest of the event in mind? [/i]
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Re: The future of Burningman

Postby unjonharley » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:53 am

jerroc wrote:Is burningman becoming the next party hot spot of the summer. Are people buying tickets to a art/culture festival or a giant no rules, topless girls, free beer, international Dj week long I'm so getting laid party. I know we have to take the bad with the good in life but at the rate of a 20% population increase when is the bad going to out weigh the good. The idea of this post is not to complain but to create a think tank. How can we preserve the good? Should there be some rules in place to keep burningman from evolving into the party hotspot for the general public? does the promotion of international Djs go aginst the 3rd listed of the 10 principles? should we look at the cons of nudity and make some compormises? Should news media be allowed to film and exploit the event and will they do it with the best intrest of the event in mind? [/i]


You will be old and tired before Burnng Man is distroyed by your standards. Give your neck a rest. Eather go and mind your own or stay home. The people are part of the art.. The pretty techno people are just and added fad.. Misic will change in a few years and you will have something new to be upset about..

I always bring 50s music and people seem to love it..8- !0 watt is enough to enjoy it.. Even with dance club blasting..
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Postby Bob » Mon Sep 13, 2010 7:58 am

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Re: The future of Burningman

Postby masho » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:02 am

jerroc wrote:Should there be some rules in place to keep burningman from.....?


no

jerroc wrote:should we look at the cons of nudity and make some compormises?


no
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Postby jerroc » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:15 am

I think you missed the intention of the post. I did not complain or even state a personal opinion. I asked some important questions to a very potential problem. Do the new people know the concept of burningman? I'm actually a Techno Dj my self as well as a long time event organiser so really I have no problem with the music or the people. Its the reason why some are there that is my concern. Is the action of gifting being misunderstood? Let's try to offer helpful feedback and less judgement next time.
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Postby crumpets » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:22 am

2010 was my first Burn, and may I say that not all us newbies are total asshats.

I spent a hell of a long time on MOOP patrol, helping my camp, gifting good swag that people really seemed to love, volunteering with the Temple Guardians, and generally participating in a positive way.

Within any community, you get bad eggs. They'll think it's fun, but they won't get the experience that other genuine people will.

I seriously doubt the ravers and sparkle ponies will be so driven to reattend and volunteer more as much as I am right now.

The entire philosophy of Burning Man is not lost on me - in fact, when I first heard it, I was elated that FINALLY - a place that sounds like HOME.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, sure you get jerks and idiots. But they don't really count for anything. They're furniture. It's the people that REALLY get it that count, and you can spot them a mile off. Gazing at the stars, exploring, interacting, and smiling with their eyes. These are the people to surround yourself with.

Cleaning up after the asshats is part of the experience for me, and I really don't mind.
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:26 am

jerroc wrote:I think you missed the intention of the post. I did not complain or even state a personal opinion. I asked some important questions to a very potential problem. Do the new people know the concept of burningman? I'm actually a Techno Dj my self as well as a long time event organiser so really I have no problem with the music or the people. Its the reason why some are there that is my concern. Is the action of gifting being misunderstood? Let's try to offer helpful feedback and less judgement next time.


As said. Burning Man will change with or without your tiny concerns..

Who am I? I don't know.. I have changed many time sence this morning..


I'm very sorry your a Techno dj.. Or were you expressing pride in your non talent..
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:27 am

Oops
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Postby jerroc » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:51 am

I think the concept of burningman is worth protecting from people who might misunderstand it or not care about it. If we let these people think this is another kind of spring break party we will have lost a great thing. I have seen what strong media attention can do to events. I have seen people come more for the party and less for the event. Burningman has been in strong media attention for the last 5 years and the numbers are on the rise. We have to keep in mind BLM holds the contract for the event and can decide to impose rules on the BMO in order to permit the event. Are you ready for those kind of rules? Check out youtube there is an alarming rate of nudity being posted this year. Mostly topless chicks. When you look at other years video its not so much. I don't mind people wanting to run around naked. the trouble is when its being posted and viewed by the public. People start talking about the naked chicks at burningman. Each year that passes the people at the heart of burningman will complain more about moop, darktards, freeloaders, and tourist. We will become a gifting comunity that is expected to give. I don't want to post a bunch so I just edit. Sorry.
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:03 am

jerroc wrote:I think the concept of burningman is worth protecting from people who might misunderstand it or not care about it. If we let the people think this is another kind of spring break party we will have lost a great thing. This is grabing strong media attention and too many people are thinking burningman is a big party with no rules in the middle of no where.



This is the way it has gone sence I started going in 2001.. The burner still out# the non.. Most of the non sort there self out and don't return or become burners..yawn..
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Postby Fire_Moose » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:09 am

The future of burning man lies in the past.



did i just blow yer mind or what?
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Postby ygmir » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:19 am

Fire_Moose wrote:The future of burning man lies in the past.



did i just blow yer mind or what?


depends on what a person thinks with,..... one might suggest........
....
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Postby TomServo » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:30 am

Theirs always 4th of Juplaya. I met soo many newbies this year, yet 2010 will stand out as one of the best! Maybe BM needed new blood!
anything worth doing is worth overdoing..
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Postby sunkenstate5683 » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:41 am

These concerns are legitimate, but whether or not they come to pass, only time can tell.

As a recent non-virgin, who may have been mistaken at times for a non-contributing raving furry darkwad, I was so inspired and moved by the experience that I am already brainstorming art pieces, finding local burners to team up with, seeking further volunteer opportunities, and generally spreading the energy that I found in BRC.

Many first timers that I've corresponded with have echoed these sentiments. I suspect that if even a fraction of the increasing numbers of first-timers are so inspired to contribute, the principles of BM will stay true and this will not turn into Ibiza on the playa. I think the biggest threat may be the increasing challenge of leaving no trace.

Not that there is anything wrong with Ibiza - I would love to go. And I love electronic music and the DJs that bring it to me. Which reminds me... although I don't want to continue the flaming which was unnecessarily started on this post, unjonharley, I hope you'll reexamine the motivation behind your posts, which seem to me to be at times inappropriately rude and disrespectful.
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Postby swampdog » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:52 am

I met some frat-boy types out by the Man Wednesday. They were blown away. I gave one of them my hat and you'd have thought I gave him the keys to a mercedes. Point being, you never know who's going to get what out there. I think these guys were sincere from the get go, but maybe a frat boy or two gets a glimmer of something... more.

Also, we hit 50k this year. I don't know what the limits on # of people will be when they renegotiate the contract with BLM, but I hope it doesn't increase. I suspect that if we start hitting hard ticket sales limits the "just show up" types won't be able to do that.
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Postby jerroc » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:05 am

Sunkenstate you are so right. The insperation we feel from what we see motivates us to get involved And makes burningman better every year. I too hope it will keep us going for many more years. This posting is geared to talk about how not to give out the wrong impression but should include how to inspire the right impression as well. Thx
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Postby Lassen Forge » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:19 am

Good one, Dog!!!

We had an influx from the Rotarian Bus on, what was it, Saturday?

One total asshat abusive shit. One of 2 people I 86'd.

A few AssVisors. PITA but survivable. Honestly, I felt like the old DPW, gettiing to fuck with someone. >>evil grins<<

Majority were tourists who didn't get it. You could see it - lost in our reality. But they gamely tried. I applaud them for trying!!! (ANd they were fun, too!)

But a few... got it. They want to come back. They want to BURN. I would LOVE to have them in any camp I was a part of. One even told me she was sad because she felt CHEATED from having to leave with the buttbus - I think had she a tent and bag and a place to crash and water and shit she would have stayed past moopout. No... I'm SURE of it.

When you see the light... the recognition... the aura... of HOME hit someone, it fucking rocks. SOme hated the tourists, but ya know what? They were fun. They were an experience. They, for better or worse, were part of my burn... and in so doing, I was a part of theirs.

Could you ask for more? (Well, we COULD get the drive by shooting range back, damn...)
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Postby jerroc » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:34 am

A population limit could create a higher particapation vs tourist ratio. Higher ticket prices to support additional art would encourage more creations\insperation. Discouraging the advertisement of international dj line ups could keep weekend numbers down.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:35 am

jerroc wrote: We have to keep in mind BLM holds the contract for the event and can decide to impose rules on the BMO in order to permit the event. Are you ready for those kind of rules?

I don't think BLM can make nudity rules. Vehicles and clean-up, but I don't think that they have any other things that they can slap on us and haven't yet.
jerroc wrote: Check out youtube there is an alarming rate of nudity being posted this year. Mostly topless chicks. When you look at other years video its not so much. I don't mind people wanting to run around naked. the trouble is when.

Do we know how many videos were taken down over the course of the year because of the nudity? Looking at the numbers now might not give us an accurate picture.
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Postby unjonharley » Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:50 am

I think OP is a nut case that would control peopel having fun..

Maybe we should burn his bible and see if his followers riot..
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Postby thirt33n » Mon Sep 13, 2010 11:52 am

Jerroc- don't ever try to hold back the tide. you'll only be wasting your time and energy. lead by example. pass along all you can through actions. the tide is coming. it has been for years. start handing out floaty water wings and stop tossing out sinkers. evolve.

and sunkenstate5683- your enthusiasm is excellent. just make sure to NEVER be a darkwad again. it's on the top of many peoples list of "why?".

love now. tide's comin in.
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Postby Teo del Fuego » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:07 pm

unjonharley:

normally I find your posts relevant, but you've really gone off your feed in this thread. I know you are in your seventies or eighties and wrestle with the printed word, but how about piping down until you have at least gone back and re-read the OP's first post while sober?
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Postby Eric » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:57 pm

jerroc wrote:I think the concept of burningman is worth protecting from people who might misunderstand it or not care about it.


While I understand the desire to protect something you love, the discussion for me falls completely apart on the above quote.

Whose "concept" of Burning Man, whose "it" needs to be understood?

Burning Man is completely subjective- what I experience as "it" is going to be different from what you think "it" is. Trying to protect your (or my) vision of "it" as the only correct way is like trying to tell a Catholic, a Greek Orthodox, a Mormon and a Lutheran that there is only one way to view Christ. They all believe their way is the correct one, and have fought & killed each other to "prove" it, even though they all believe in him as the "savior".

Telling members of the Org, DPW, Sacred Spaces, Root Society & Death Guild that we all have to believe in the event the same way is an equivalent impossibility.

The best we can do is try to educate the newbies on the 10 principles (I don't even buy all of those, but if we stick to "Radical Self Reliance" we should be on the right track, at least from my perspective). Some will "get" the event, for others it will be a huge party in the desert. A huge party they look forward to every year and love.

Who says they don't ask themselves the same questions about why we don't "get" that?
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Postby Lassen Forge » Mon Sep 13, 2010 12:58 pm

The Future is uncertain, deep, and dark,
but I must add much more snark
And trash until in 2011 I park...
And trash until in 2011 I park.

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Postby unjonharley » Mon Sep 13, 2010 1:10 pm

Eric wrote:
jerroc wrote:I think the concept of burningman is worth protecting from people who might misunderstand it or not care about it.


While I understand the desire to protect something you love, the discussion for me falls completely apart on the above quote.

Whose "concept" of Burning Man, whose "it" needs to be understood?

Burning Man is completely subjective- what I experience as "it" is going to be different from what you think "it" is. Trying to protect your (or my) vision of "it" as the only correct way is like trying to tell a Catholic, a Greek Orthodox, a Mormon and a Lutheran that there is only one way to view Christ. They all believe their way is the correct one, and have fought & killed each other to "prove" it, even though they all believe in him as the "savior".

Telling members of the Org, DPW, Sacred Spaces, Root Society & Death Guild that we all have to believe in the event the same way is an equivalent impossibility.

The best we can do is try to educate the newbies on the 10 principles (I don't even buy all of those, but if we stick to "Radical Self Reliance" we should be on the right track, at least from my perspective). Some will "get" the event, for others it will be a huge party in the desert. A huge party they look forward to every year and love.

Who says they don't ask themselves the same questions about why we don't "get" that?



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Postby jerroc » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:09 pm

So we understand I am talking about said 10 principles and importantly ones concerning participation, leave no trace, gifting, communal effort, radical self reliance. These are key to the physical opperation of BM. and very easy to take advantage of. I am leading by example by starting this topic to explore ways we can work towards keeping burningman on track with its 10 principles. If these are not encouraged by us we let the default world work its way into this rare 1 week long festival. I hope I have worked through all your objections and concerns of my intentions. Does anyone know where to find or can post the attendance records for the last 10 years. Does anyone know of a camp designed to challenge new people and has it ever been sucessful?
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Postby Da Mule » Mon Sep 13, 2010 3:12 pm

After burn reports are available on bmorg's site for all but 2010. They contain statistics about BMan population
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Postby thirt33n » Mon Sep 13, 2010 4:20 pm

jerroc-
the next, greatest, unsoiled and un-infiltrated burning man...is in YOU.

many think this is more than a 1 week festival.

it is often and widely emphasized to "take it with you" into your daily life.

This, i believe, is the key. If it is in you then those who are introduced to it, by you, will truly know how much these principles mean.

many of us have felt the same as you do now. uneasy about the future...the diluting....you can't stop it....

when you say "we" i would rather hear you say "I", otherwise, I believe you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

i like the next and greatest burning man. be it.


:)
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Postby Eric » Mon Sep 13, 2010 5:13 pm

jerroc wrote:So we understand I am talking about said 10 principles and importantly ones concerning participation, leave no trace, gifting, communal effort, radical self reliance.


That part up above where I said I didn't agree with all 10 "principles"- gifting is the big one I don't like. Not because I want a cash economy, pretty much the opposite- "gifting" has become an expectation, not a true gift (for proof just look for the "I didn't get a necklace" thread).

I did a full rant on this in the BRC Weekly "gifting as a spectator sport".

If you want to give people a deeper understanding of what you think "it" is, set up a lectern in Center Camp (or somewhere on the playa, or in your camp) and start teaching your way.

We try to use the bullypulpit of our newspaper, and Piss Clear before it, to get our point of view about the event across. We don't expect everyone to agree (we'd be shocked if they did) but it does let everyone know where we come from and maybe, just maybe, give newbies ideas and options on how to do some things differently.

Of course, it's also a great outlet for us to be snarky, but whatever...
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Postby jerroc » Mon Sep 13, 2010 6:20 pm

I think we are slowly getting somewhere. So I will try to focus here. I think we can agree that many of us understand gifting helps the comunity to provide services or goods with out commerical influence. But many people who come rather expect the same services to be provided at the same commerical level that exist in the default world. Or just plainly think we should provide because of a gifting policy. This is a taxing problem and is one of the most abused principles. How can we help preserve the gifting concept in a way that keeps to the burningman culture on track but let's people evolve as well. Can the greeter station at the front verbaly tell the cars as they come in the there is a serious water and beer shortage on the playa. Has anyone come up with an easy bike rack system that allows them to be locked and erect something cheap, easy to build and uses little material. Can we form think tanks on certain projects to provide a better burn for everyone. It sucks to have to have a bike stolen. Have someone raid your water supply. The rat trap idea was awsome. Can we use ideas like this to make something interactive but also have a useful meaning to help people rethink their approch on what it is to recive a gift. Take pictures of your bike before the event to prove ownership keep it in your pack. If you do find someone on it the possesion is 9\10 of the law is put to rest. I will bring an extra bike lock maybe 2 to give.
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