Big plans, big money, big debate?

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Big plans, big money, big debate?

Postby technopatra » Thu May 20, 2004 5:21 pm

I'm inspired to bring this up for discussion based on a posting in the Camps sections by folks who are planning on hiring some people to work at their camp during the event - building it, providing security, and cleanup.

This struck a nerve with me. While the money will not change hands on the playa, it seems like you could not pick a less DIY, less self-sufficient, less Burning Man way of participating in the event.

If Burning Man is just another experience you pay to have, why not go to Club Med?

If your plans are so big that you need to hire people to help you, are they too big?

Or, taking a little responsibilty myself, does my reaction simply mask financial envy? If I had the cash, would I be in their shoes, participating where I want to and paying other people take care of the rest? Certainly there must be others who already think I am a tourist for spending money on the pre-made dome and the comfy bed.

Is the difference a matter of ethos, or a matter of scale? I bring this up not just to debate how we feel about big money spent on the playa, but also to question ourselves why we react to it the way we do.

What do you think?
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Postby Badger » Thu May 20, 2004 5:30 pm

Or, taking a little responsibilty myself, does my reaction simply mask financial envy?


Darlin', I doubt it. Probably no more financial envy than than what I feel towards those who can afford the Club Med experience.

I mean, we're talking zero.

BTW, I'm in total agreement with you. The idea of the camp you describe seems almost COMPLETELY laden with a a spirit that's contrarian to everthing I feel BM represents. Even by 'represents' is distilled down to a wkks worth of camping in the desert I can't imagine going or being near someone who's all but payingg to have their ass wiped because they can afford to.

Altogether it sounds like a pretty lame setup.
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Postby rubyredalys » Thu May 20, 2004 5:32 pm

i would like to say that if i had the money i would provide something interactive which lots could enjoy. i think i will feel some kind of accomplishment putting up my 6 person tent, planning and cooking my own meals, and making friends.

the method to the theme they are using is not all encompassing though. although most of the bm crowd is adult, what about the kid scene? how are they going to stop children (or those very close to it, ie 17) from being around?

maybe i would be eccentric with my ideas too, who knows?

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Postby Ivy » Thu May 20, 2004 5:54 pm

What is the differen in spending a large sum of money bringing something interactive to the playa, like a roller coaster or a jungle gym, and spending large amounts of money on bringing an adult swingers club or the like?
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Re: Big plans, big money, big debate?

Postby KellY » Thu May 20, 2004 6:09 pm

technopatra wrote:If your plans are so big that you need to hire people to help you, are they too big?


No, it means you have to find some people who think you're plan is cool and want to help.

I agree, the whole concept is completely fucked up and anti-sprit o' Burningman.

That being said, there are people who get paid via grants from BRAF to create their art on the playa. But at least that's for the community. Maybe the camp in question is some cool interactive theme camp, but the concept of hiring "security" gives me the heebie-jeebies and makes me want to burn the camp down. Not that I ever would give into such an impulse, of course.
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Postby technopatra » Thu May 20, 2004 6:23 pm

Correction: it looks like the security would be volunteer - just the set up and cleanup would be hired help.

I still have mixed feelings.

How is it different to give one of your campers all the food money and a little extra so he could pay for his ticket, in exchange for him cooking up the meals for your camp? I know a several camps who've done this, and it doesn't seem to violate the ethic. No commerce happens on the playa, heir friend gets to come, they all get yummy food...win-win.

Is the difference here that the folks being hired are not, presumably, going to stay for the event? That they are not friends, they will not participate in the event, therefore there is no social currency in their "participation"?
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Postby Dork » Thu May 20, 2004 6:43 pm

Things definitely get tricky when you try to decide whether something is over the line and jealousy does play a factor for some, I'm sure. Commerce ahead of time is allowed and in many cases, encouraged. People chip in for gas and meals, camps charge a fee to cover water and shelter, we all pay people to build things for us ahead of time by buying pre-made domes instead of making out own, for example.

Where do the big BMorg subsidized pieces of art that need to hire cranes in order to be assembled fall into this? Are they ok because they made it on the "cool" list?

Lower levels of paid service happen quite routinely even if money isn't involved. "Camp cooks" get free food in exchange for preparing meals, people get free tickets in exchange for providing pivitol help on a project, etc.

The answer is not black and white in the cases we're talking about, though the case at hand is a very dark shade of gray.

I'll never be in charge of setting policies, so I only get to decide this for myself. I'm quite happy to do things myself or solicit volunteers rather than paying someone at the moment. Mostly because if I start paying I lose the right to bitch about other people doing it :)
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Postby Dustdevil » Thu May 20, 2004 6:49 pm

I would like to know something before I can offer my opinion. (Or play devils' advocate). Will the camp in question be a private camp just for its' members or is it a camp that the population in general can enjoy?
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Postby Bob A » Thu May 20, 2004 7:15 pm

I think spending a lot of money is ok if you have it and can spare it. Its how you spend it that matters. If you buy a lot of expensive pre-made gifts to give away, probably not cool. If you spend a lot of money on materials and time to make gifts, probably cool. Plenty of gray area here too.

If you’re going to build a camp with light shows lasers kick ass sound and video walls etc and you have the money, cool. Do as much yourself and get volunteers too in the areas you lack. Don't just call a production company and have the whole thing assembled for you. Expand your knowledge and comfort zone.

On the other side a cool camp could have an old boom box a bar made out of milk crates a parachute dome and really cool home made art on the walls and be just as cool as a camp with mega spending.

I think that is one of the neatest things there can be this really polished thing and right down the street a home made basic project and both can have deep meaning and be really cool, or not.

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Postby angrykittie25 » Thu May 20, 2004 8:16 pm

I really don't know what to think about this camp. I just keep picturing all of the possible problems they could encounter. It does not seem to go with the burning man idea. It just seems like it would be so out of place on the playa. I know I haven't actually been to burning man, but I have gone through the entire image gallery. All of the structures and camps just seem to fit perfectly, and most of them are beautiful. Then I think of this camp, with its numerous semi trucks parked around it, the XXX amusment park atmosphere, with their intricate and professionally installed electricity and sewer systems, it just doesn't seem to fit. Maybe its just me, but I also kinda wonder how many people are going to read about this camp and decide that they don't have to bring the things they need because they can just go to this camp and fuck for their supplies (showers, food, beer, water, temporary dwellings). At that point someone would only need bring a tent, bedding, clothes, and their ticket. I am just very unsure and bewildered by the whole thing.

Also, if their setup crews are comming into Burning man, do they require a ticket? Not the trucks just dropping off supplies, but the ones that will require hours of work to put this thing together. That brings up another question. Do the gates just let any company truck come in and drop things off?
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Remember the Travelocity ad last year?

Postby Gizmo » Thu May 20, 2004 9:38 pm

I think the guy with the Roman Orgy Camp is a prankster.
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Postby Gizmo » Thu May 20, 2004 9:41 pm

Or maybe just a horny guy with a vivid imagination.
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Postby Badger » Thu May 20, 2004 11:20 pm

As Rome falls I'm contemplating bringing a fiddle this year. More lameness on the horizon....

----begin forwarded message----

Check it out. Could be a hoax left up after April one though.

http://ecstasiavilla.com/

"Friday
2004/8/27 All professional Staff including Cooking Staff Working in San
Carlos to pack Truck for trim
8:00 AM to 6:00 PM
Saturday 2004/8/28 All professional Staff including Cooking Staff Working
in San Carlos to pack Truck for trim
8:00 AM to 9:00 PM
Sunday 2004/8/29 All professional Staff including Cooking Staff begin drive
for Black Rock City
8:00 AM
Monday 2004/8/30 All professional Staff including Cooking Staff Working to
set up Ecestasia Villa
6:00 AM to 9:00 PM
Tuesday 2004/9/1 Breakfast 9:00Am to 10:00Am

Morning Duty 9:00Am to 10:00Am
Lunch Set out 12:00 Noon to 1:00 Pm
Noon Duty 1:00 Pm to 2:00 Pm
Afternoon Art Car Tour 2:00 Pm to 5:00 Pm
Dinner Service 6:00 Pm to 7:00 Pm
Evening Duty 6:00 Pm to 7:00 Pm
Evening Art Car Tour 8:00 Pm to 1:00 Am

Wednesday 2004/9/2 Same
Thursday 2004/9/3 Same
Friday 2004/9/4 Same
Saturday 2004/9/5 Burn Night, Same
Sunday 2004/9/6 Burn Night, Tear Camp Down
Monday 2004/9/7 Tear down Camp and Drive home
Tuesday 2004/9/8 Unpack At home"

or

"How To Join our Camp
There are several ways to come and play with us in EcstasiaVilla
Financial SponsorIncludes Full Service Tent you will need your own
ticket.$3000 Minimum commitment, stock ownership, and Shared liability for
additional expenses.
Camp MemberBring all of your own camping and eating stuff. Camp in Ecstasia
Villa and enjoy Pricilla Use your own ticketCamp dues only $125 Per Person.
You will be asked to work at least 3 Five Hour Shifts on Pricilla.
Full Service - TentBring only your tooth brush, Sleeping bag and personal
items. Let us provide food, RV w Showers, Tents, Water. We will provide
cooks ect. Nice if you are flying in.$600 Which includes Food, Tents, Rv w
Shower & lots and lots of water.. Ect. You will be asked to work at least 3
Four Five Shifts on Pricilla. You will need your own ticket.
Full Service - RV SleepingBring only your tooth brush, Sleeping bag and
personal items. Let us provide food, RV w Showers, Water. We will provide
cooks ect. Sleep in the Rv Nice if you are flying in.$3000 Per Couple - 3
Couples per Rv. You will need your own Ticket. No shift work asked.
Professional StaffWe need the Following
2 Cooks - $200 Each / Week
1 Camp Leader $750 / Week
5 Staff Profesionals $500 ea. / WeekGet paid to enjoy Burning Man
We provide Ticket, Food, Tents, water, RV for relaxing and your pay. Work
your way & enjoy and get paid.
If you care to join us please send an email stating your interest along
with your email address, name, phone and physical address to
mlord(at)mlord.net.
Note: on the email address for me you will need to remove the (at) and put
in the regular @ sign to make it work. I do this to keep from getting the
spam from the email harvesters.
You can also call me (Mike) at 650-219-6467 if you have questions or just
want to say hi."
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Thu May 20, 2004 11:26 pm

technopatra wrote:Is the difference here that the folks being hired are not, presumably, going to stay for the event? That they are not friends, they will not participate in the event, therefore there is no social currency in their "participation"?

THAT is exactly the issue I have with it.
BM is so cool because everyone is a participant who volunteered to be there because they wanted to. Not because it was their job.
If the paid help consists of people who are "real" burners anyway, then it gets grayer still.
I've daydreamed about being independently wealthy and "subsidizing" a theme camp...
Half of my camp gets subsidized tickets for "working" for the Black Rock Rangers, Exodus, and Medical. Of course, these are "real" burners who'd be there anyway; does anyone know if this is the deal with the paid "employees" in question here? I think a lot of it hinges on that.
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Postby Captain Goddammit » Thu May 20, 2004 11:32 pm

O.K., the post above mine wasn't there when I wrote mine... If that's what this is all about, forget it, that looks like satire to me!! Great stuff, too.
The idea is still an interesting topic for discussion, though.
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Postby Ivy » Fri May 21, 2004 7:45 am

Someone mentioned that the camp being described was "not in the spirit of Burning Man."

(Whithout geting into yet another lengthy debate about someone to please explain to me exactly what that is...)

I disagree.
This camp is a gift that these people are gicing to the citizens of BRC. A safe, enclosed place for people to be sexual. There are a lot of people that don't have this kind of opportunity in the "default world."

So they hire people to help them. So what? Like others have already noted, much more money is dumped into the ecomomy every year though BM art projects, heavy equipment rental, food, gad, water... you name it. (It goes back tot he whole thing of the "no commerce" society actualy stimulating more commerce.)

I agree that the way the camp is set set up and broached may or may not be effective. i expect if there are large light-up "XXX" signs and other exlpicit signage that there may be the same kind problems as with Jiffy Lube in the past.

I also thought the original proposal of the idea on whcih this thread is based on the eplaya was pretty open for ideas and suggestions, and looking for help and advice as to what the citizens of BRC would like to see in thier swingers' club and ways to work with the org et. al. on safety and security issues.
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Fri May 21, 2004 8:25 am

Ivy wrote:Someone mentioned that the camp being described was "not in the spirit of Burning Man."


It can (and has) been argued that Burning Man is no longer in the spirit of Burning Man. YMMV - Jafe
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Postby dragonfly Jafe » Fri May 21, 2004 9:23 am

Here's a question for the group - assuming I was extremely rich, what conditions would have to be present for me to be able to "gift" a well funded, well organized camp to BRC without incurring the wrath of the Spirit Police? Let's remove the sex part.

Say I am going to set up a professional roller coaster. Work in all the right channels, get the needed permits & inspections, etc. Need to have lots of professionals to help (crane operators, steel erectors, inspectors, ride operators, etc)

What else would be required to "be within the spirit of Burning Man"?

Inclusivity has been tossed around - but what does this mean? Do all camps have to cater to all citizens at all times? No, of course not (there are kids at BRC, and bars, among other non-kid things). It's better if they do, but is it a requirement?

Volunteering seems to be a buzzword, but plenty of examples have been pointed out where it appears acceptable to "barter" or even pay (pre-playa of course) for services. And then of course there is JOTS, EMS, Centercamp. Is volunteer-only a requirement? If I pay to eliminate issues (time mainly) instead of wrassling with the whole non-paying option, am I a worse Burner than someone who spends the year scrounging and scavenging everything from trash bins?

There also is an undercurrent of fear regarding the impact of a large installation. Should there be a size limit on camps? 100 people? 500 people? 1000 people? 1 acre? 100 sf / person?

The "professional" aspect seems to bug some people - if someone wanted to have a huge camp that was half-assed put together with tarps would that make it better?

What would it take to have a large, well executed camp that doesn't violate the "spirit" of Burning Man?

What if Larry was leading it? Would that make it any different?

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Postby stuart » Fri May 21, 2004 11:49 am

The answer is not black and white in the cases we're talking about, though the case at hand is a very dark shade of gray.


This is spot on for me. It't like that old definition of pornography: I can't eplain it, but I know it when I see it

I am spending a pile on BM this year so I doubt it's the financial envy thing (although I don't have a private chef or sex slaves).

don't know


A friend of mine, who digs the heavy beats had a fantasy that he would first win lotto and then buy a large military cargo plane, you know the ones with the back deck that lowers, and turn it into a flying dance club complete with chryo blasters and Dave Seaman. He would fly onto the playa, load about 2 hundred people into the complete darkness of the back of the plane, take off and start the tunes, at the first big build he would fire up the chryo, turn an all the flashy shit and crank up the music. Fly around for about a half hour, land. Rinse repeat as necessary.

Aside from all the obvsious issues, would this be in the 'spirit of burning man'?
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Postby angrykittie25 » Fri May 21, 2004 12:03 pm

On the main Burning Man site in the Art of Burning Man section it says:
Burning Man is much more than just a temporary community. It's a city in the desert, dedicated to radical self-reliance and radical self-expression


How is this camp any sort of self reliance. Its a guy (or group of people) relying on a mass of other people to do everything for them. Many times on this board people talk about the radical self reliance and how intricate a part it plays in the burning man experience. What kind of enlightenment or knowlege does this guy come by if he pays everyone else to do the grunt work?
I also wonder about the numerous semi truck trailers parked around this camp. How would this work? There are already many debates on RV's and how the impact the whole scene of burning man, as well as abstruct views for anything smaller. Would this camp simply be placed on the outer ring so that they do not inconvenience all of the campers around them.

dragonfly Jafe
Say I am going to set up a professional roller coaster. Work in all the right channels, get the needed permits & inspections, etc. Need to have lots of professionals to help (crane operators, steel erectors, inspectors, ride operators, etc)

What else would be required to "be within the spirit of Burning Man"?

and

The "professional" aspect seems to bug some people - if someone wanted to have a huge camp that was half-assed put together with tarps would that make it better?



I think that people would much prefer seing a theme camp or project that has been put together by a person or group of people who put all of their effort into it. I think that people would respect a theme camp that seemed what you would call half-assed over something constructed out of obligation rather than loving the idea of the project itself, and wanting to see the idea become a reality. And just because a group of people do all of the work from conceptualizing the theme camp to its final creation, in no means makes it half assed. If someone's camp was half assed, then maybe they didn't but enough into planning, funding and building the camp and should have waited until they had their shit together. Unlike this guy who just needed to come up with the orgy idea and the cash, and everyone else seems to be doing the grunt work. Why doesn't this guy get down in the dirt and do the grunt work. It just seems to commercialized.
Also, this guy obviously has a lot of money. So he probably has a job where he is the boss of many people, how is he doing anything different than his everyday life (other than changing who he is bossing and what they are working at).
I think that maybe this guy could have posted something on the board about all of the positions that he needed to fill (instead of hiring) and looking for qualified candidates and possibly offering to pay for their ticket if they put so much time into the process. I know that some of you would still say this is hiring someone and they would not be volunteers, but at least this way all of the workers would also be burners and participate in the rest of the community. The lesser of two evils.
Also, will these construction workers that are being imported onto the playa understand the event itself and be made aware to respect the people around them. What if these construction workers turned out to be a bunch of grown up frat boys harrassing people, or yelling at the fat girls, or homophobic, or whatever the case may be. That is a hole nother aspect that could impact the people of burning man.

Stuart, IMO that would be more okay with me because it does not impact burning man in such a negative way. Planes are not kept in the main area of Burning Man(I assume) and there for would not impact campers experience in a negative way. Everyone buys things for burning man so buying the plane and all accesories doesn't seem to be a problem. And he wouldn't be hiring a bunch of non burners to come and impact everyone around them. I think that this would be more in the "spirit".

(Disclaimer: These opinions are based soley on what I have read or seen through websites or burning man participants. I have not been to burning man and do not think I am an authority on what is "the spirit of burning man". These are simply my opinions)
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Postby Simply Joel » Fri May 21, 2004 12:40 pm

I have no comment worthy of saying.
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Postby KellY » Fri May 21, 2004 1:11 pm

Simply Joel wrote:I have no comment worthy of saying.


I am so disappointed.

No, seriously.
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Postby ronski » Fri May 21, 2004 1:12 pm

Interesting discussion, and fairly civil. I do get the impression that the organizer of this camp is sincere and is trying to "play by the rules"-- whatever they are-- for what is a grandiose endevor.

Another example like the Ectasiavilla comes to mind:

http://www.greentortoise.com/burning.man.festival.html

So, if you go Green Tortoise, you can get a package deal, travel on their bus, stay at their camp, get prepared meals and water provided for you, heck, even have them order your ticket. You do have to provide a $200 non-refundable deposit. I assume that their bus drivers and so forth are paid employees.

Green Tortoise is, I'm fairly certain, a private for-profit company. Looks like they've been doing this for years. Can someone tell me how they do this? Is this officially sanctioned by the BMORG, another one of those "helping out the little guy" exceptions from Larry?

Is this also "in the spirit of BM"? What if, say, Travelocity was offering something similiar?

I'm not an absolutist on the whole commerce purity thing, just curious, particularly since Green Tortoise is actively advertising for these Burning Man trips-- at the university I work at their flyers are now appearing on the bulletin boards. Opinions?
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Postby Ivy » Fri May 21, 2004 1:32 pm

Angry kittie, I think you bring up a really good point with this:

How is this camp any sort of self reliance.


I think that is something worth looking at.

However:
Someone has a good idea for a costume or an art car, but they don't sew or weld, so they employ the help of someone else to do that for them. Is this a comparable analogy?
I often make costumes for people for Burning Man. They come to me with thier ideas and I help put them togetehr and actually construct them. They reimburse me for matierials, labor and time. Thought it's not actually on the playa in the desert. While they may not have constucted it with their own two hands and sweat. it's still their idea and design.
I would venture to say the same about this or any other theme camp. It is their idea and their design, and they are relying on the best way they know how to realize their ideas and, possibly, to make thier camp or art the best that they think it can be. To some people, best is in the sweat at the effort, even if it ends up as two tarps and a piece of string. To others, the presentation is key. To some it's functionlity. None of these are more right than any other. Perhaps they think by hiring people to do professional construction et. al. work, they are giving something better (and quite possibly safer, depending on their skill level) to the community?
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Postby Bob » Fri May 21, 2004 1:53 pm

Why judge?

As if ya'll really wanted to audit every single ledger book out there.

If so, then why?
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Postby angrykittie25 » Fri May 21, 2004 2:28 pm

In Response to Ivy:

I think that if someone say wanted to make an art car and did not know how to weld, I think that they can find someone that can. However I think that anyone really interested in the actual art car design and creation, as opposed to just wanting to have one out there, would still be involved in the creation of that vehicle. There would be colaberation between the designer and the welder, and it seems to me that the designer would also be involved in the decoration (non welding ones) of the vehicle. If someone just draws something out and gives it to a team to build, it seems a waste because that person learned nothing in the process and their would be less communication, more of a "just follow the plans" and that is it. That does not mean that it is wrong. And I am sure that people would ask about aspects of the car while it is out on the playa, and they would have no clue how to answer, unless they stay involved.
With the costumes, I think that there is also more communication and input on a costume. Maybe they help pick out the fabric, color, style. Then you tell them what fabrics would work, any ideas you have to alter. Then sizing and any other alterations. There seems to me that there would be more personal interaction.
I think what is most worrisome about this camp is that if this kind of theme camp catches on, will Burning Man turn into some pissing contest between rich people on who can build the most elaborate and wild theme camp.
I think that my biggest problem with this theme camp is all of the semi trucks and such. I just invision a small truckstop in the middle of burning man. The other things I think are conserns, but I just like pointing out things that maybe other people haven't though of. This thread is comming up with some very good arguments.
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Postby Ranger Genius » Fri May 21, 2004 2:39 pm

As much as I would like to find a reason to object to this camp (provided that it is not a joke and that they can handle their logistical concerns), I really can't see one that wouldn't be hypocritical. The only difference is the magnitude of the camp. I would have preferred to see them recruiting volunteers for their construction crew (if that's not the plan), but how is hiring people to staff the camp different from offering discounted tickets to Baristas in center Cafe?

It does raise a "self-reliant" red flag for me, though, because it is apparently bringing help in from outside the city, rather than seeking it from fellow participants. I guess that counts as a valid objection, no? I'd rather see a few dozen burners who couldn't otherwise afford to go being used as labor, rather than professional construction personnel who may or may not 'get it.'
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri May 21, 2004 2:48 pm

My concerns at this point are still with the lack of experience in throwing these kinds of events. Things can easily go wrong, and doing it for the first time for a week out in the middle of nowhere may be the sort of logistical nightmare that no amount of money can solve.

My questions include:
Sheets. Is one of those semis going to be filled with linens from a defunct hotel or is someone going to drive to Reno? Sparks? Empire? to do 20 large loads of wash everyday? (And yes, then you'd have to pay me and pay me well.)
Supplies. French Letters (as we say when we post from work) are all well and good. As a start. Gloves. Nitrile varients of both in case someone is allergic to latex. Saran wrap. Lube. Um, you're not having monoxadil-9 are you? And what is your delivery system on the lube? Those teeny tiny samples packets? Or the logistical nightmare of economy sized bottles? MOOP factor on your french letters? at least three small pieces, the wrapper, the corner of your wrapper and the item itself. If it doesn't break. And trust me on this, people have a tendency to stick them under the mattress or whereever is handy rather then in the container provided.
Showers will be taken on the way in and on the way out. Just saying.
Security. In order for something like this to work, especially for many women, it's going to take more than walls. I've seen the rules--sign them to get in, or you aint going in. Reams of paper there--and if any get lost on playa, you could have some unhappy signatores. The Poloroid photo of anyone who acts up and gets thrown out --bring it. Register it with the media people. Moniters--people willing to interupt and say: Hey is this consesual? Is this safe? And most I've attended work from a list of known qualities and keep it invitation only with advance notice for newbies. The policy as described looks a lot more open, and a lot less manageble.

As posted so far there are too many variables for me to believe it will work. The particular logistics of the nature of the party, plus the desert camping, plus bm itself. What will they do if half the camp walks off for the day? I know people who throw simelar parties and I've pitched in on set up and clean up. It's a nice fantasy, but if you want it to work, get someone with specific experience in there too.
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Postby Ivy » Fri May 21, 2004 3:01 pm

Out of all the points raised, I think the most challenging are Crytpfishist's. However, while those point are very importnant, the're not really part of the arguement about whether ot not someone should be using cash as a resource to build a large camp rather than their own 2 hands. I certianly think C.F's issues are very imprtant, but I also have to add that this is Burning man and you need to read the back of your ticket no matter what theme camp you enter, whether you ride on the roller coaster, skydive out of a plane or enter a swinger's club.

As far as
will Burning Man turn into some pissing contest between rich people on who can build the most elaborate and wild theme camp

I would argue that it already has. People are spending more money than I will likely ever earn in my life time just on their theme camps. But that's okay becuase they're not about sex? I don't think the swinger's club as exlpained on the other thread as trying to be bigger or better than something else, rather as being the best [gift] those people could give. Just as people have input into the shape of their art cars or the color of their fabric costumes, in the thread regarding the camp of this nature, it appears that the poster is involved with the idea and set up and design.


here's a random thought: what if someone had a really swell idea for an art car but couldn't weld--becuase they had no arms? Would it be acceptible for them to hire some one to build it for them? And what would be the differene between not being able to build it becuase you don't have the resources of knowledge vs. not being able to build it becuase you don't have the resources of your own physical labor?
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Postby theCryptofishist » Fri May 21, 2004 3:10 pm

Ivy wrote:Out of all the points raised, I think the most challenging are Crytpfishist's. However, while those point are very importnant, the're not really part of the arguement about whether ot not someone should be using cash as a resource to build a large camp rather than their own 2 hands.
<snip>
here's a random thought: what if someone had a really swell idea for an art car but couldn't weld--becuase they had no arms? Would it be acceptible for them to hire some one to build it for them? And what would be the differene between not being able to build it becuase you don't have the resources of knowledge vs. not being able to build it becuase you don't have the resources of your own physical labor?

Ivy you may be right about my placement of comments--I just felt better placing them in the conseversation about the other thread than in the other thread. I'm sure that they will be read and accepted or rejected by the swingers camp either way, it's just the notion of "endorsing by responding."

As the tireless (ha!) disabilities on the playa advocate, I think armless artists should be allowed to design mutant vehicles. Would it make a difference if the artist supervised the labor? If *he* did trade with another burner for the work? Hired a burner or a non-burner? And who's driving the car--does *he* have adaptive equipment? Or is *he* hiring a chuaffer?
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