Judgement

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Judgement

Postby AnyPlace » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:15 am

How does one go about defeating expectation?

If experience and reason determine a persons judgements about themselves, and the representations of their physical enviroments (people, ideas, space, relation, etc.), then wouldn't it stand to reason that the interpretation of said representations, judgements, is an expectation in an of itself, simply because of the necessity of our interaction(s) with the physical world?

I ask these questions because I realize that I've been struggling a lot with the expectations of judgement. So much so, that I have been placing expectations in judgement as a means of governing, not only the interpretations of my own experiences, but the representations of the experiences around me . It seems, I've placed myself in a box I never thought I'd find myself in. Help.
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Postby Packoderm » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:29 am

Anyplace, the moderator says that these types of posts should be made in the Open Discussion forum under Year Round Connections. I guess the Politics and Philosophy mainly pertains to that of the Burning Man experience.
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Postby AnyPlace » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:34 am

Packoderm wrote:Anyplace, the moderator says that these types of posts should be made in the Open Discussion forum under Year Round Connections. I guess the Politics and Philosophy mainly pertains to that of the Burning Man experience.


Noted. Thank you.
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Postby Packoderm » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:48 am

One thing you might want to note is that these Burning Man types here don't really seem to like radical self-expression unless it is a popular expression similar in type to those held by the majority of people here. To be fair, I can surmise that it's getting close to launch, and the alpha types are ready to gear up for the big camp. To me, art can be made from words just as it can be made from paint or clay, and your Allegory of the Isle fits right in there. I know that it is considered presumptuous for a first timer to make expectations about Burning man (thanks Token) but I will try to keep on open mind to what constitutes art on the playa.
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Postby FIGJAM » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:49 am

When I realized that expectations lead to anger when thier not met, and anger is a mild form of insanity (look at all the bad choices made when angry) I started watching out for expectations cause the anger used up alot of energy that could be put to better use.

If you are angry something has to be done with that anger or it can become inturnalized and turn into depression.

Anger is always based on wanting something to be other than what it is.

Acceptance does away with anger.

You dont have to like the situation, but acceptance puts you in a better position to deal with it.

If I judge someone, I have already labled them which makes it imposible to learn anything more about them, since they now have a lable and all that the lable implies.

So after a lot of practice, I tend to live my life without expectations or opinions.

I learn more about everything that way and dont waste my energy on expectations or opinions.

Makes me one contented mother fucker. :lol:
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Postby AnyPlace » Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:59 am

Packoderm wrote:One thing you might want to note is that these Burning Man types here don't really seem to like radical self-expression unless it is a popular expression similar in type to those held by the majority of people here. To be fair, I can surmise that it's getting close to launch, and the alpha types are ready to gear up for the big camp. To me, art can be made from words just as it can be made from paint or clay, and your Allegory of the Isle fits right in there. I know that it is considered presumptuous for a first timer to make expectations about Burning man (thanks Token) but I will try to keep on open mind to what constitutes art on the playa.


This is the most down to Earth thing that been said to me since I started posting. Are you a California man, perchance?
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Postby AnyPlace » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:06 am

FIGJAM wrote:When I realized that expectations lead to anger when thier not met, and anger is a mild form of insanity (look at all the bad choices made when angry) I started watching out for expectations cause the anger used up alot of energy that could be put to better use.

If you are angry something has to be done with that anger or it can become inturnalized and turn into depression.

Anger is always based on wanting something to be other than what it is.

Acceptance does away with anger.

You dont have to like the situation, but acceptance puts you in a better position to deal with it.

If I judge someone, I have already labled them which makes it imposible to learn anything more about them, since they now have a lable and all that the lable implies.

So after a lot of practice, I tend to live my life without expectations or opinions.

I learn more about everything that way and dont waste my energy on expectations or opinions.

Makes me one contented mother fucker. :lol:


Learning to live parallel to my experiences... that nearly seems impossible. (see, expectaions of the the past defining the present, and a present devoid of purpose or meaning without expectations of the past. (I am a bit frustrated).)
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Postby maggiemayday » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:11 am

[quote="AnyPlace"][quote="Packoderm"]Anyplace, the moderator says that these types of posts should be made in the Open Discussion forum under Year Round Connections. I guess the Politics and Philosophy mainly pertains to that of the Burning Man experience.[/quote]

Noted. Thank you.[/quote]

Now the two threads need to be merged. Where's a moderator when you need one?
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Postby gaminwench » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:12 am

I look forward to your musings after you've been to the man...
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Postby FIGJAM » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:14 am

Believe me it takes a LOT of practice since its so contrary to what we pick up from society.

Its like being totaly responcable for our feelings.

Our feelings come from what we think and not from what some one says or does.

Its what we think about what a person, place, or thing does that cuases the emotion.

Yea I know stuff.
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Postby Eric » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:21 am

FIGJAM wrote:Acceptance does away with anger.

You dont have to like the situation, but acceptance puts you in a better position to deal with it.


When it comes to Burning Man, Figjam hit it on the nose with this. You either accept that shit you didn't plan for will come up & deal with it as you can, or you wreck your Burn being pissed that it's not what you want. The playa always seems to throw something at you- and if you aren't prepared to either deal with it or accept it, you're going to fight the fact you're stuck.

Example- I'm a photographer. It's one of my main forms of expression. My first year I had my camera & was just snapping away at all the amazing stuff. Second day, my camera dies. I can't get it to focus to save my life. I spend an hour freaking- what am I going to do without my camera?? Then I realize there's nothing I can do in the middle of the playa to fix it. I put the camera down, and go off & have a great time. To this day I leave my "photographer" persona behind when I go to the Burn- I carry a janky point & shoot to get some shots of friends, but thats it. I could have let it wreck my Burn, or I could let it go. Sometimes you have to choose the "road less traveled" to get somewhere.

As for Packoderms thought that:
these Burning Man types here don't really seem to like radical self-expression unless it is a popular expression


eh, not so much.

What the jaded old timers get tired of is virgins presuming to know what it is, just because they've read the Burning Man website, talked to some people & looked at pictures. It is pretty much impossible to really "get" Burning Man until you've been there. It really is indescribable- the good & the bad of it.

Art on the playa can be almost anything, but to jump in saying "it's my art" without going is like saying "I hate Picasso" when you've only seen photocopies of the real thing.

The Burning Man website is a very one sided look at the event (think of the Bmorg as either FOX or MSNBC- they're around to spread a particular viewpoint), the people you talk to can only give you small snapshots; and the photo's cut out the sounds, the smells, the dust, the people beside you, the great coffee you were just gifted, the amazing person you just spent 20 minutes talking to about nothing- but a wonderful nothing.....

I went with 10 year Burners my first year, and worked on the late, great Piss Clear from the time I set foot in the dust- with them beside me and telling me tons of stuff I still got hit in the face with something completely beyond what I could imagine.

The "no-expectations" mantra is just that- try to leave preconceived thoughts behind you. Try to expect as little as possible- accept that you are stepping into the unknown.

You may have your life changed, or you may decide its a rave in the desert filled with hippies; if you go expecting it to be one of those you probably won't see the other layers.

Being flustered about letting go is a huge warning sign that you're expecting too much. Just take a breath deep and plunge into the dark.

Hmmm. Longest damn serious post I've made in ages. Maybe it's time for a cocktail.
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Postby bluesbob » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:24 am

If your expectations are very, very low...they will always be matched and it takes very little to defeat them.

If your expectations are high...you always have the chance of being severely disappointed.

However, everything in life is dependent upon what YOU put into it.
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Postby AnyPlace » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:35 am

Eric wrote:
FIGJAM wrote:Acceptance does away with anger.

You dont have to like the situation, but acceptance puts you in a better position to deal with it.


When it comes to Burning Man, Figjam hit it on the nose with this. You either accept that shit you didn't plan for will come up & deal with it as you can, or you wreck your Burn being pissed that it's not what you want. The playa always seems to throw something at you- and if you aren't prepared to either deal with it or accept it, you're going to fight the fact you're stuck.

Example- I'm a photographer. It's one of my main forms of expression. My first year I had my camera & was just snapping away at all the amazing stuff. Second day, my camera dies. I can't get it to focus to save my life. I spend an hour freaking- what am I going to do without my camera?? Then I realize there's nothing I can do in the middle of the playa to fix it. I put the camera down, and go off & have a great time. To this day I leave my "photographer" persona behind when I go to the Burn- I carry a janky point & shoot to get some shots of friends, but thats it. I could have let it wreck my Burn, or I could let it go. Sometimes you have to choose the "road less traveled" to get somewhere.

As for Packoderms thought that:
these Burning Man types here don't really seem to like radical self-expression unless it is a popular expression


eh, not so much.

What the jaded old timers get tired of is virgins presuming to know what it is, just because they've read the Burning Man website, talked to some people & looked at pictures. It is pretty much impossible to really "get" Burning Man until you've been there. It really is indescribable- the good & the bad of it.

Art on the playa can be almost anything, but to jump in saying "it's my art" without going is like saying "I hate Picasso" when you've only seen photocopies of the real thing.

The Burning Man website is a very one sided look at the event (think of the Bmorg as either FOX or MSNBC- they're around to spread a particular viewpoint), the people you talk to can only give you small snapshots; and the photo's cut out the sounds, the smells, the dust, the people beside you, the great coffee you were just gifted, the amazing person you just spent 20 minutes talking to about nothing- but a wonderful nothing.....

I went with 10 year Burners my first year, and worked on the late, great Piss Clear from the time I set foot in the dust- with them beside me and telling me tons of stuff I still got hit in the face with something completely beyond what I could imagine.

The "no-expectations" mantra is just that- try to leave preconceived thoughts behind you. Try to expect as little as possible- accept that you are stepping into the unknown.

You may have your life changed, or you may decide its a rave in the desert filled with hippies; if you go expecting it to be one of those you probably won't see the other layers.

Being flustered about letting go is a huge warning sign that you're expecting too much. Just take a breath deep and plunge into the dark.

Hmmm. Longest damn serious post I've made in ages. Maybe it's time for a cocktail.


I don't disagree on any particular point. Though, I will say that I'd rather address my notions of preconceived notions pre-Burn, than have to tackle them mid-Burn. I have an addictive personality, so once I latch onto something, I'm hooked. I want to do everything I can to give this experience the respect it deserves, so that when I'm there, I'm all there.
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Postby Fire_Moose » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:45 am

Packoderm wrote:One thing you might want to note is that these Burning Man types here don't really seem to like radical self-expression unless it is a popular expression similar in type to those held by the majority of people here.



No. The Burning Man types will let you know how they feel about yer art. There IS bad art, this include long winded boring allegories as much as it does the Twilight series.
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Postby Packoderm » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:53 am

Fire_Moose wrote:
Packoderm wrote:One thing you might want to note is that these Burning Man types here don't really seem to like radical self-expression unless it is a popular expression similar in type to those held by the majority of people here.



No. The Burning Man types will let you know how they feel about yer art. There IS bad art, this include long winded boring allegories as much as it does the Twilight series.


Fair enough. Thanks for being honest.
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Postby theCryptofishist » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:59 am

Fire_Moose wrote:
Packoderm wrote:One thing you might want to note is that these Burning Man types here don't really seem to like radical self-expression unless it is a popular expression similar in type to those held by the majority of people here.



No. The Burning Man types will let you know how they feel about yer art. There IS bad art, this include long winded boring allegories as much as it does the Twilight series.

I have a lot of trouble seeing the banal self-expression as "radical." Of course, there is the definition of burningman as the special olympics of art. (Which I have mixed feelings about--it does capture something, but it also displays ignorance about a particular group. Oh, and smugness...)

Of course the real problem is that I wrote all sorts of pretentious crap as a college softmore and it was shit and drivel. Now when I read stuff on that level (including Larry Harvey's stuff) I just cringe.
If the op stopped trying to work on manifestos and allegories and just wrote passion and excitment and wonder, people would like it a whole lot more. Thank goodness eplaya is a rough and tumble place that bruises us all, but pushes a lot of us towards naming and owning our truths rather than an undergrad english seminar.
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Postby AnyPlace » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:00 am

Packoderm wrote:
Fire_Moose wrote:
Packoderm wrote:One thing you might want to note is that these Burning Man types here don't really seem to like radical self-expression unless it is a popular expression similar in type to those held by the majority of people here.



No. The Burning Man types will let you know how they feel about yer art. There IS bad art, this include long winded boring allegories as much as it does the Twilight series.


Fair enough. Thanks for being honest.


Ditto.
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Postby AnyPlace » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:03 am

theCryptofishist wrote:
Fire_Moose wrote:
Packoderm wrote:One thing you might want to note is that these Burning Man types here don't really seem to like radical self-expression unless it is a popular expression similar in type to those held by the majority of people here.



No. The Burning Man types will let you know how they feel about yer art. There IS bad art, this include long winded boring allegories as much as it does the Twilight series.

I have a lot of trouble seeing the banal self-expression as "radical." Of course, there is the definition of burningman as the special olympics of art. (Which I have mixed feelings about--it does capture something, but it also displays ignorance about a particular group. Oh, and smugness...)

Of course the real problem is that I wrote all sorts of pretentious crap as a college softmore and it was shit and drivel. Now when I read stuff on that level (including Larry Harvey's stuff) I just cringe.
If the op stopped trying to work on manifestos and allegories and just wrote passion and excitment and wonder, people would like it a whole lot more. Thank goodness eplaya is a rough and tumble place that bruises us all, but pushes a lot of us towards naming and owning our truths rather than an undergrad english seminar.


Well said.
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Postby Eric » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:07 am

AnyPlace wrote:Though, I will say that I'd rather address my notions of preconceived notions pre-Burn, than have to tackle them mid-Burn.


Here's the crux- you can't address the preconceived notions, you have to just try to let them go.

Your brain seems to work similarly to mine- you want to be able to get a good look at the situation & then proceed. The idea of going without actually knowing whats going to happen gets... scary.

This is where the Burn starts to give you a gift- freedom. You need to start learning to let go of your need to address everything and just let things start happening. Focus on making sure you're prepared, make sure you've done everything to ensure that you will survive for the week out there, and let the rest go, as hard as it is. Don't overthink it- don't think it at all. If you must do something- look at the pictures of the event & get excited, and realize they only giving the surface of what they're showing.

Like I said before, I'll be interested to see your thoughts afterwards.
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Postby TomServo » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:18 am

Never! Expect anything! Especially @ Burning Man...
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Thu Aug 19, 2010 11:21 am

This is the most down to Earth thing that been said to me since I started posting. Are you a California man, perchance?




i think i'm going to puke.
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Postby AnyPlace » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:09 pm

Simon of the Playa wrote:
This is the most down to Earth thing that been said to me since I started posting. Are you a California man, perchance?




i think i'm going to puke.


I love my state! Don't judge me.
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Postby Simon of the Playa » Fri Aug 20, 2010 1:13 pm

it has nothing to do with california.



it has everything to do with the usage of the word "Perchance"

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