Help me respond to this

Share your views on the policies, philosophies, and spirit of Burning Man.

Help me respond to this

Postby Davoid » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:21 am

...lovely little Burning Man tour package.
http://dynamicadaptations.com/burningman.php

All the contact info is on the site. I'm sure they're dying to hear from you.

(Had to come out of the cobwebs for this one. Hey y'all, how ya been?)
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Postby bluesbob » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:54 am

Thinking of all the logistics and costs of accumulating all that gear, renting an RV, and a hotel in Reno...this may sound like great package to someone overseas.
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Postby AntiM » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:25 am

I have the feeling you're being sarcastic... I hope so. Otherwise this is the saddest referral I've seen eplaya. $3k? Gee, at least you get a hat and three costumes.

Worst commodification of the event yet. Removes ANY trace of responsibility and participation. The "veteran burners" should be horribly ashamed of themselves. Shun! Shun them!
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Postby C.f.M. » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:49 am

bluesbob wrote:Thinking of all the logistics and costs of accumulating all that gear, renting an RV, and a hotel in Reno...this may sound like great package to someone overseas.


Hell, to some of us underseas...but still. It's the principle.

I wonder if they obtained all the right permissions to use those photographs?
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Postby gyre » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:00 am

I am indifferent to this.
It does require the responsibility of coughing up 6K a couple.

Plenty of people work on costumes all year and etc and then come out and just drink and dance.
Is that participation?

This is the cheapest concierged package that I have seen that includes an RV, though the others included more during the week.

I have offered to concierge the arrangements for a couple of friends that can't manage the time, but not as a for profit thing, just to get them here.
One is a doctor that devotes massive amounts of his time to others.
My plans during the event, consists of pushing him out of the camp and saying "Go!"
I don't know what he'll do, but I know he'll love it.

My feeling is that even the people paying for the full concierged camps, at ten times the cost of this one and more, have a chance to get involved.
Who knows what will happen?

I managed to convert a paid worker out there into a burner, who had been several times and still didn't understand what the options were.
I don't know what it was, but she found something there she didn't think was available.
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Postby Token » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:26 am

So, you can go Green Tortoise on a bus full of the unwashed, 2/3 or less of the event duration, have to lug your own tent, bike, etc. and stay in one of the worst Playa ghettos ... For about a cool grand.

Or do the all inclusive Lux Interior ride for three grand.

If its just two people per RV, this is a steal of a deal with even the ticket included.

You cant rent an RV anywhere from SF to Reno for less than $6K.
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Postby Elderberry » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:37 am

Don't see anything wrong with it at all. It's just an alternative way for a person to participate; and who are we to judge how or at what level a person chooses to enjoy Burning Man?

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Postby ygmir » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:45 am

jkisha wrote:Don't see anything wrong with it at all. It's just an alternative way for a person to participate; and who are we to judge how or at what level a person chooses to enjoy Burning Man?

JK


that's a very good point, JK.

so many judge others, if they don't agree.
They say "all inclusive, all are welcome" but, seem only to mean it if they approve or at least can tolerate, what the others are doing.

"burnier than thou" is rampant, at times.

yeah, I may not want to, or approve, them or how they attend, but, who am I to condemn?

I pontificate, from this spot, firmly ensconced in my hypocritical tower, and admittedly so.
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Postby C.f.M. » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:59 am

ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote:Don't see anything wrong with it at all. It's just an alternative way for a person to participate; and who are we to judge how or at what level a person chooses to enjoy Burning Man?

JK


that's a very good point, JK.

so many judge others, if they don't agree.
They say "all inclusive, all are welcome" but, seem only to mean it if they approve or at least can tolerate, what the others are doing.

"burnier than thou" is rampant, at times.

yeah, I may not want to, or approve, them or how they attend, but, who am I to condemn?

I pontificate, from this spot, firmly ensconced in my hypocritical tower, and admittedly so.


I would imagine the problem isn't necessarily with buying a travel package, but the sort of people who would do something like that.

IE, the burn "tourists."

Do these veteran also provide proper instruction on how to leave a clean area? Not moop other people's camps? etc.
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Postby Elderberry » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:59 am

C.f.M. wrote:
ygmir wrote:
jkisha wrote:Don't see anything wrong with it at all. It's just an alternative way for a person to participate; and who are we to judge how or at what level a person chooses to enjoy Burning Man?

JK


that's a very good point, JK.

so many judge others, if they don't agree.
They say "all inclusive, all are welcome" but, seem only to mean it if they approve or at least can tolerate, what the others are doing.

"burnier than thou" is rampant, at times.

yeah, I may not want to, or approve, them or how they attend, but, who am I to condemn?

I pontificate, from this spot, firmly ensconced in my hypocritical tower, and admittedly so.


I would imagine the problem isn't necessarily with buying a travel package, but the sort of people who would do something like that.

IE, the burn "tourists."

Do these veteran also provide proper instruction on how to leave a clean area? Not moop other people's camps? etc.


No offense, but that's bull shit. We are all tourists. After all, it's new every year. Some people might be able to participate MORE by not having to worry about basic survival--think handicapped or medically disabled?

Why would you assume people that decide to use the tour package would be less of a good BM citizen than you???? I'd worry more about the ravers and people that can't afford the tour package if I were you. (but now I'm being judgmental)

Specious argument; IMHO

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Postby Fire_Moose » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:01 am

for 3k they better be mooping for me!


on another note, does this not scream "SCAM" to anyone?
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Postby AntiM » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:25 am

Okay, if the only way I could attend was this way, maybe. But I think not, I think I have friends who would cart me there in a wheelbarrow if I were so incapacitated. The difference being "friends I love", not "people I am paying".

Yes to inclusiveness, but this flavor of radical self-reliance seems hollow, does it not? Watching the enthusiastic newbs posting their daily prep, the vets who sweat their asses off, and the broke folk who pinch every penny to go, that's joyful here on the eplaya. It seems as though they put so much heart into it, that they will be the ones who get a lot out of it.

I'd feel better if the "veterans" providing the infrastructure would also provide an Intro to Burning Man and the Ten Principles rather than a simple link to the survival guide. I didn't notice "MOOP bags" being provided to the buyers.

I make the assumption about burn tourists because the prep is half the journey to me. Judgmental? Yes. Correct? Let's find out where this Shangri-la is camping and ask the paying participants.
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Postby Elderberry » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:47 am

AntiM wrote:Okay, if the only way I could attend was this way, maybe. But I think not, I think I have friends who would cart me there in a wheelbarrow if I were so incapacitated. The difference being "friends I love", not "people I am paying".

Yes to inclusiveness, but this flavor of radical self-reliance seems hollow, does it not? Watching the enthusiastic newbs posting their daily prep, the vets who sweat their asses off, and the broke folk who pinch every penny to go, that's joyful here on the eplaya. It seems as though they put so much heart into it, that they will be the ones who get a lot out of it.

I'd feel better if the "veterans" providing the infrastructure would also provide an Intro to Burning Man and the Ten Principles rather than a simple link to the survival guide. I didn't notice "MOOP bags" being provided to the buyers.

I make the assumption about burn tourists because the prep is half the journey to me. Judgmental? Yes. Correct? Let's find out where this Shangri-la is camping and ask the paying participants.


First, regarding the MOOP bags, I'm going to contact them and suggest that they do provide that "amenity". It's a great idea. I'll let you know if they respond back to me.

Regarding the rest of your post, I would have taken advantage of that service my first burn, had it been available.

Even today, there are several members of our camp that will only go if they stay in an RV.

But they are all, I think, what you would consider true burners, they all participate, and give at least as they take from the event.

I would never want to stay in an RV anymore, but I don't begrudge others that do.

Personally I enjoy the challenge making the experience as comfortable as I can with things like our Yurt, cooking stove, generator, air-conditioning for the yurt, etc. yet still not isolate me too much from the experience.

So is their experience hollow? Maybe so...but if they don't have a chance to have a hollow experience, they will never have the chance to have a more enriched experience.

I don't think I'm actually arguing or really disagreeing with your point, just saying that people are all different, some need to ease into things, others can just take the plunge.

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Postby Trishntek » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:48 am

So maybe we have misinterpreted the meaning of "radical self reliance",,,, just didn't know we could buy it for a nominal fee. How many other principals are for sale?
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Postby ygmir » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:11 am

I would submit, that "radical self reliance" in a philosophical sense, as used here, is very subjective:

If, you're not walking, in rabbit skin (or whatever you can kill) shoes and clothing, carrying water in leather bags and eating bugs or whatever you can find on the way, you've rationalized the meaning to suit your own POV.

I'd think without clear lines drawn, and a different term used (self reliant, as defined by ________) it's all a matter of opinion.

So, who draws the line (s), as to what you can, or should buy, pay for, or rely on others to provide?

Everything in life is for sale......somewhere.

I don't pontificate, from a pedestal of righteousness or judgment.
And, I agree, that making it a "Disney" experience, seems contrary to the stated ideals and goals.
But, I have a hard time seeing a line, as such, between "self reliant" and, "tourist", if you want specifics that denote each.

A "check list"?
with two columns, and, once you have to many checks on one side, you're a tourist?
Nawp, not for me.

To me, the only possible way to separate "Burner" from "tourist" would be attitude and actions, but, even then, it'd still take a way to keep "count".........

I'd like to think I'm a "Burner", but, I bring a generator, and have been known to fire it up, just to run the A/C in my old travel trailer for a couple of hours, if I, or another, is feeling poorly.
I don't rub sticks together, I use matches and propane to cook.

So, could a person, who for whatever reason, decides to stay in an R.V. and, have stuff done for them, but also is helpful and loving towards others, is generous with kind and useful gifts, and, brings happiness to the playa, to be condemned for tourism/commercialism, or, applauded for their "Burner" spirit?

It's a tough question, for me anyway.........being a bear of little brain.
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Postby Nitevenus » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:22 am

Agreed. Just how far does something have to evolve before its origin is a blurred memory. Isn't the preparation part of the journey? I, too, have marveled at the inventiveness of many on this board who have shared their ideas on how to make it a more comfortable experience. Not sure if it is this kind of inventiveness that I would marvel at.
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Postby AntiM » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:28 am

It is a tough question. Like pornography, "I know it when I see it"?

This isn't about RVs though. I don't think staying in an RV is bad. Staying in an RV because your friend/lover/SO provided it for you? A gift, so I'm good with it. Wouldn't make it a personal choice at this time. Paid rideshare in an RV? You still had to search and hustle for it and bring your own stuff. Staying in an RV where you'e not had to lift a finger because you paid someone else to do it ALL? Rubs me raw, that's my line in the dust.

There is another travel site offering something similar, and for less... but no costumes and a "cocktail party" so the customers can "participate". Are they better? Just as bad? Still ickily icky?

They should provide Altoid tins too, for the smokers. I'm only half kidding.

Will they volunteer for anything? Do they know they can? Will they swing a hammer for a neighbor? Go on ice runs? Bring art to share? I get the feeling not so much. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.

I still say "icky".
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Postby robrob » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:15 pm

Will they swing a hammer for a neighbor?


Ein Hammer?! :shock:


between the people delivering $50 bikes to the playa for $200, to this crap it seems like there is quite the little cottage industry catering to curious vacationers.

it is what it is, but you'd think first camp would use some of that mighty war chest on a crack legal team pursuing the people using trademarks and logos.
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Postby Davoid » Wed Aug 11, 2010 12:51 pm

They do provide a link to the "Ten Principles of Burning Man" on the application, so there's that. There's also "Master Bedroom of the RV is available for an additional fee." See how nice they are?
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Postby theCryptofishist » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:24 pm

robrob wrote:it is what it is, but you'd think first camp would use some of that mighty war chest on a crack legal team pursuing the people using trademarks and logos.

I don't completely understand how the name thing works, but I'm not sure they are violating it. After all, they are providing "Burningman" not a "Burningman Hat" or "A Regional Festival like Burningman" either of which it's possible to imagine someone taking as some sort of LLC endorcement. (Okay, some very excited person whose brain makes leaps, but I see it as possible.)
And it really seems like a company for the Turks. That's where I bet the phone number goes (certainly not Los Angeles!)
The thing for me, the thing that almost aches, is that in 3007, whoops, 2007, I totally predicted the basic utility of a medical concierge. I am cranky and resentful that I didn't get that when I needed it, but on some level I long for that to exist, the next time I'm seriously ill I want more than social workers seem able to give.
So, it's rich Turks. And I think it might be cheaper than many cruises of similier length. I think they will get really wierd ideas of what the festival is, but tourism is like that anywhere. Better to get out and experience first hand, but local customs can be hard.
So, fence sitting here. I don't like it, mostly because of money. And because it denies the participants the opportunity to participate on their own terms, with there own artistic expression.
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Postby Boijoy » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:36 pm

I need to see what the costumes look like.
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Postby flatlander13 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:46 pm

There is nothing that says that radical self reliance can’t be purchased……..

I’m find it interesting that you guys are just now getting upset about this kind of thing. I saw an advertisement in 2002 for the same kind of package/service.

I guess we “real burnersâ€
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Postby Parasitoid » Wed Aug 11, 2010 1:51 pm

My advice to the people who are bothered by this (since you can't stop it) is to start screening your gift recipients for the values you deem gift worthy.
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Postby Trishntek » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:09 pm

When we saw this, it made our stomachs churn. BM is not Disneyland or Yellowstone. It is a place to test character and build character. A place to help and be helped. It is a sojourn,,,, a test of endurance, ingenuity and creativity. We are disappointed more than anything. It diminishes the heart and soul of BRC.

edit: ygmir, i understand what you say in response to "radical self reliance". BUT! It's not only the purchasing of stuff and using stuff for BM. It's the menu planning, the logistics of survival, creating that shade structure, pounding those stakes, driving that fucking gas hog of an RV and dealing with close quarters while traveling. Then,,,, as a result of all that fun,,,, when it is all over,,,, you get to strike camp and stuff all that garbage you created back into the space from which it came,,,, just to discover it grew for some reason! It is the EFFORT! NOT THE MONEY OR THE STUFF! I'm sure we have spent more than $6k for BM2010 and still have to buy groceries and gas and DO THE HARD THINGS to make it all work.

When someone is allowed to arrive with only personal items, which would be used in any hotel room, and everything else is provided,,,,,, sighhhhhh it's their loss I guess, but we find it sickening.
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Postby Boijoy » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:23 pm

Trishntek wrote:When we saw this, it made our stomachs churn. BM is not Disneyland or Yellowstone. It is a place to test character and build character. A place to help and be helped. It is a sojourn,,,, a test of endurance, ingenuity and creativity. We are disappointed more than anything. It diminishes the heart and soul of BRC.

When someone is allowed to arrive with only personal items, which would be used in any hotel room, and everything else is provided,,,,,, sighhhhhh it's their loss I guess, but we find it sickening.


awww. don't worry Trishntek. They will find their character tested the first time they are in the open playa during a raging dust storm. :wink:
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Postby Trishntek » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:28 pm

Ahhhhh bullshit,,, they'll just turn around and have their butler wipe their eyes for them.
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Postby moonrise » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:14 pm

I have learned NOT to get long winded here, too many people REALLY need this board uncluttered, myself included! BUT...

I went to a potluck, neighbors annual thing, they are retired have the "good life"
Brought them cherries on snow (I make snow also, not just edible fire) they loved it...,uh huh...who wouldn't?

Kinna knew they went last year (dusty lexus)
I am not monied, they are. Thier guests are also. (I have medical bs=less money these days)

A handful of guests spoke about burning man, I mentioned what I learned here: stand up for myself to calif doc/dmv, met tons of artists who help me and do/will/ go..so much more and I haven't been yet!

Also mentioned some of the art things i will bring.

As soon as I mention BM volunterism, the guest(s) who only seemed to discuss pretty selves and what not suddenly got a headache (NO shit!..one gal in particular) and excused themselves to other mingling...whatever...just couldn't hear of it...hmmmm...
AND! at that same moment lightning struck, massive rains, ruined garden party!
entire thing rianed out, band two songs only! they had to trudge into garage, then prety house, mud bla bla....whoa I think, I have stuff to do! I split...hahaha!

I walked across the street to my default world home and opened an email containing an awesome invite from my regionals....a personal one NOT a general one...with Ph# bla bla i called etc. I will go to thier cool thing saturday.

Truth 100%...what a strange WASTE of MY time anyway..that odd garden party.

Trishntek I used to live Ventura..if you drive 395 have an awesome drive and remember this newbie story, ok?

That ad should have at least not stolen the BM logo? AND maybe put up front, some sort of..well...volunterism anything...huh...maybe the consultant "explains it".... *uck I have busted my arse for what? 2+ months...and learned a LOT! Some people prep for year(s)..the neighbors are civic minded but not sure about BM???? headacheville!

I better get going, sooo much to do but I am more than halfway there!
Gracias eplaya and endless types of burners!

(AntiM working on some wayward art...been windy ever since that stormy party..future burner artist is giving me his garage for use..it'll be cool/hot!)

See ya soon! :lol:
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Postby moonrise » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:38 pm

PS I din't tell any of the headacheville people I was going, just explained what I knew.

I'm SURE they rent/own Rv's but still it was as if they had been suddenly stricken with guilt (storm too) when i told them people get involved/participate/share/gift/future burners with talent have become interested etc. etc etc...

I will see them at the burn, too many of them to miss at least ONE, it'll be interesting and hopefully not rain (adding poncho to the list!)

Maybe I should ****gift them SPECIAL biz cards**** that just say;
"EPLAYA GET SKOOLED NOT FOOLED" on them...lmfao...don't get pissed gang!, ok!?!...but really should I?? I can print just for them!

Ok, I'm done. Would someone here please tell me to SHUT UP and get back to prep! AND give me an answer about the special gift biz cards!
Gracias! :lol: :wink:
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Postby Token » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:53 pm

Trishntek wrote:When someone is allowed to arrive with only personal items, which would be used in any hotel room, and everything else is provided,,,,,, sighhhhhh it's their loss I guess...


Oh no my dear, that would be my wife.

;)
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Postby Elderberry » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:21 pm

Trishntek wrote:So maybe we have misinterpreted the meaning of "radical self reliance",,,, just didn't know we could buy it for a nominal fee. How many other principals are for sale?


Anything can be bought, if you can afford it. Those that can't usually bitch about it.

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